OT: I'm still trying to figure out the difference between "permaculture" and "homesteading." I thought I had it until I visited this forum. It seems that many people use these terms somewhat interchangably to describe 'self-sufficiency' and 'living off the land' (this was what I thought homesteading meant). My understanding was that Permaculture was a style or method of farming/gardening/growing your own food. I was defining permaculture, in my own head, as a symbiosis or synergistic way of "growing" food (both plant and animal). Is this incorrect? Homesteading and Permaculture practices certainly seem to intersect, but my thinking was that they had two different motives or goals that drove their philosophy? Back to the topic: I think your topic of conversation is a good one, and is very important for those of us that 'dream' of a self-sustaining way of life. When people 'dream' of just about anything, they tend to think about only the good/fun/easy things that interest them and tend to forget or -simply not know of- the difficulties inherent in making that dream a reality. In a dream of this magnitute (moving back to the land-homesteading?), costs MUST be one of the primary considerations. All residences, regardless of grandure or simplicity, will need repairs: roofs leak and need repair and eventually replacement, plumbing problems occur and need repair or updating, storms break tree branches that fall on your house or automobile, termites, rats, roaches, or bacteria/fungi come to call and eat your home/food stocks/seeds/plants. The need for money is inevitable, in my opinion. I finally bought a house, so I'm one step closer to self-sufficiency. It's a fixer-upper with a low mortgage that I am paying down as quickly as I can, but I've done little but shell out money for repairs since we moved in (almost two years ago). We are pretty handy, but we have no electrical or plumbing experience so that expertise had to be paid for. Even if you are a jack-of-all-trades, there are still the costs of repair supplies and materials, so I just don't see how anyone could hope to sustain themselves and their property with no money (not even mentioning property taxes). Someone said, earlier in this thread, that money was a substitute for having friends. I agree that having friends to help out certainly reduces the need for money, but as someone else pointed out, you can go too far with this and make your friends feel resentful. I agree with the poster who said that if I need to borrow a tool more than three times a year, I need to buy it for myself (and I wish my neighbors agreed with it too). How many times have you had a tool not returned or returned damaged, and had to shell out money to replace it? One of my biggest concerns with permaculture/homesteading(?) has to do with money. "What happens when I get too old or infirm/injured/pain-ridden to do all the things needed to sustain myself?" Surely people think about this when they 'dream' of going back to the land, don't they? What will you do when you can no longer climb on the roof to repair it yourself, cut down trees and chop wood to heat your home, or garden and can/put-up your produce when it all comes ready to harvest at the same time? Do people just work until they build-up a nest egg large enough to sustain them in the event of injury/old age? Seems like they don't, because many, many people are doing this at a young age, and unless all of them are making extremely high wages it's just not likely that they've all saved enough both for inevitable repairs AND infirmity as well as supporting themselves as they save. What do you do about medical insurance? Do you just figure you will stay healthy because you have gone 'back-to-nature' and you're eating home-grown foods? Do you just close your eyes and pray that you won't get sick or diseased, then push it from your mind? What do you do about clothes? I'm a frugal person and don't have expensive needs/tastes, but I will not even consider making my own underwear or socks. Making them would involve entirely too much time, skill, and materials when I can go to the local Walmart and buy a 6-pack of Hanes underwear for around $6, and a 6-pack of socks for about the same price. Even the most thrifty person has to have new underwear and socks once in a while...and you need money for that (whether you make your own or buy them). And what about shampoo, dish washing/clothes detergent, deodorant, analgesics (ibuprofen, acetaminophen, aspirin), antibiotic ointment, alcohol, peroxide, vinegar, toilet paper, bandaids, tampons, cold/alergy medicines, tea, coffee, sugar, flour, etc? Some of these things can be fashioned out of on-hand materials, but most are cost prohibitive to make ourselves. I mean no disrespect to anyone, nor am I trying to be flippant about this issue. I just don't see how anyone can NOT plan on needing money, and not just start-up money, because there are some things that will be needed that CAN'T be bartered for (Doctors, Lowes, Home Depot, and Walmart won't barter with you ... they want cash or credit) When I read that people expect to live with no money, I wonder what they are really thinking/dreaming about. Are they really interested in SELF-sefficiency or are they expecting to have an extended family of friends, neighbors and the community do for them what/when they cannot? Maybe someone should let the friends and neighbors in on this plan?

FallDownGoBump... I hear ya... Loud and clear... Sounds as if we're both in the same boat... Hubby has 3 sisters and 2 brothers left and not one of them even bothered to send a card or call on his birthday, let alone any other time. Even if I did ask for help not one of them would... But the real kicker is that hubby has helped EVERYONE in his family and everyone has screwed him in some way... Six of his nine siblings and his father has lived with us at one time or another... When we first married we took in his father and youngest sister with the stipulation that 4 of the other brothers and sisters chip in a lousy $7. a week... The first week we got $21. the next week we got $14. then not another cent or even a crust of bread... I could go on for hours about them but I won't... It only upsets me more... My story: Three years ago hubby broke his hip and two days after the surgery they sent him home with me with no additional help... Three days after that something happened and he didn't know who he was, where he was or who I was... After a two week stay in the hospital, so they could perform every test known to man, they told me he had 2 strokes and a little stiff from the partial hip replacement but otherwise he was in good health and they sent him to a rehab facility ( nursing home )... BTW, while he was there, recovering, his youngest sister got it in her head that since the nursing home offered hospice services that was all they did and turned around and told hubby that's why he was there! Sorry for getting off on another rant... Anyway, after two months the rehab facility sent him home... For about a month and a half the visiting nurse and a physical therapist came over twice a week... By then I had to find a doctor because hubby's meds were running out. After reviewing all his medical records the doctor says hubby had SEVERAL strokes and a heart attack!!!! Ok, sorry, that's yet another rant... Right now I have a 67 year old hubby who moves as if he's 100 and, at times, has the brain of a 2 year old... Hugs, Rita

My 91 yr. old mother and I hired a contractor to build an addition to our home so that my mother could move home to live with us. My mother paid the amount to the contractor and we didn't use the bank either. We ended up with a crooked contractor that took her money then walked and didn't finish the addition. When we started the process, we didn't do sufficient research so that we were prepared sufficiently to actually go through this process and that was our downfall. There was no schedule for pmts. and he asked for monies almost on a weekly basis yet wasn't completing any of the work. He insisted that we were to pay for the work up front which we should not have done, but again, we are definitely much the wiser now. If you are looking for more information on how things work when hiring a contractor, contact the Consumer Protection Ontario and you will find so much information on what is expected and what is law when it comes to the rules for a contractor to follow. We have learned so much after the fact. There is no need to put any monies into any type of account whatsoever. You should have a schedule of pmts. to be paid only AFTER the work has been completed. I suggest you make your payments by bank draft instead of a personal cheque. There is more support when it comes to whether or not you have made the payment. Just a little more security that way, Also, keep in mind that once you have a proper contract drawn up make sure you have the terms included that cover the possibility that you may want to fire your contractor if he isn't doing the job you wanted or you could run into some legal issues. Also, keep in mind that it is against the law for contractor to walk off the job unless the project is in liveable condition. That means that if the contractor was hired to do a bathroom, he cannot legally walk off the job until that bathroom is in liveable and useable condition. We are now stuck in a legal situation just so we can get enough monies back from the contractor so that we can t least finish this addition. My mom can't even live in it as there is absolutely no bathroom in it. There are so many problems with the addition it boggles the mind and on top of that he destroyed our property. He filled in all our drainage ditches and now when it rains it washes out our laneway. We had a small river running down the middle of our laneway last summer nd it cost us $1000 to have someone come in and temporarily repair it. The gouge down the middle was approx. 4 feet wide and approx. 2 ft to 2 1/2 ft deep. It definitely wasn't a small gouge by any stretch of the imagination. I could go on and on, but suffice it to say that you need not put any of your monies into any account and never in one that the contractor has access to. Keep your monies in your pocket so to speak and make sure you have milestones to follow. Make sure you get a proper receipt for every single payment as well.a If you would like to speak with me for more information, please feel free to contact me. If I can help you at least a little, I will feel that I've protected at least one more person from being taken advantage of by a bad contractor. Good luck with your project and please check into the information that is available on the Consumer Protection website. It won't be a waste of your time...

Like many happy appliance owners I don't often write rants or praises about them. Three years in I'm getting along great with my 36" CC. I bought it through Trevor both because he is local and his reputation for service. Fortunately I've never needed to test the factory response or service. I installed the range myself. When it was new they came out with the "small pot burner". I wrote to the company and asked for one, and they sent it, no fuss, no muss, no bother (and almost no contact-- perfect!). I put it in and since then everything about the range has worked perfectly-- no more burned oatmeal. If I had it to do over I'd get the griddle rather than the grill, but I have no one other than myself to blame for that choice.