I think on vertical items it won't look so shiny, actually I like how the table looks.

I don't think it looks too shiny. Too shiny would be a bright glare. Satin finish will be more scrubbable than flat. You certainly don't want flat paint.

It looks like a satin finish to me. I like it though. Does it come in eggshell? That's a little less shiny. Are you going to put a clear finish over the gel stain? You can use polyurethane and then buff it with 0000 steel wool to remove some of the sheen. Gives it a nice glow.

Edited to add: Whatever you do, try it on a test piece first. You might be able to buff the gel stain, but I've never tried that.

This post was edited by marti8a on Sun, Dec 14, 14 at 23:58

It's really important with General Finishes HP satin to stir often while you're applying it. (I spoke with someone at GF before I purchased and the guy emphasized the importance of stirring often.) I used it on unstained oak--applied with a foam brush. My application is no where near as shiny as that table.

It's really important with General Finishes HP satin to stir often while you're applying it. (I spoke with someone at GF before I purchased and the guy emphasized the importance of stirring often.) I used it on unstained oak--applied with a foam brush. My application is no where near as shiny as that table.

I like it. I think it looks very nice. It'll also tone down with wear.

When all coatings are made, they are gloss. Then a flattening agent is put in to make it the proper sheen. The flattening agent often goes to the bottom of the container. That's why you need to keep stirring with a flat stick.

I think the table finish looks satin and agree that it will look different (not as glossy) on a vertical surface. Good suggestions about stirring often during application. What a wealth of interesting information here!!

Marti8a - No, it goes flat, satin, semi, and gloss.
"Are you going to put a clear finish over the gel stain? "
That's what the High Performance in satin is. It's one of their top coats I can use over their gel stain.

The buffing with steel wool..... I've heard of that before, but never did it. The buffing I always read about spoke of a 'piano finish' so I always thought it would be really shiny. No?
General Finishes instructions say to use 400 grit sandpaper between coats. I did see in reviews where people say they buffed out the last coat.

Ci - Thanks for the fb with this finish! I'm glad to hear that.

The picture I posted above, that person used poly over paint.

I thought I stirred really well, but I'm going to have to sample it again on the back of a door.

If this was a desk or end table I would have went forward already. As much time and effort as I've put into the cabinets thus far, it would be so disappointing to get everything done and dislike the finish.

The nice, and patient, GF lady emailed me back and said,"most use satin for kitchen- yes it is a bit more of a sheen, but it is harder to maintain a flat finish, the flat is a lower sheen than the satin and yes if you did not mix well the sheen would be higher."

I think I'll like the look of the flat finish better, but if I don't always stir well, I could probably screw the project worse with the lower sheen.

I was concerned about the gel stain with the stirring, but all was well when I hit the bottom of the can. Stain is a bit different than poly though.

This post was edited by sheesharee on Mon, Dec 15, 14 at 10:48

There are numbers given to flat, satin, semi and gloss. 15, 30, 60 and 90. That shows the relationships. Certain woods look best with a particular sheen. For example, oak needs to be 30 or 15. The grain is so wide that gloss exaggerates it. Be careful using steel wool on a water based product. You must make sure to remove any little bits of metal that might get loose and catch somewhere. Overtime it can rust. That's why sandpaper is suggested.

Linelle - Oh, I remember your desk. I went to look up photos of it and like the sheen. Thanks for the feedback.

Sixtyohno - "The grain is so wide that gloss exaggerates it."
I couldn't put into words why I don't like oak in a higher gloss, but that could be it. I don't mind grain, but I feel it cheapens the look somehow.
I'm going to forget the steel wool for this project. I remember reading about the potential rust issue which was why I always just stayed clear in the past.

Are those numbers anywhere on the cans or is that just the manufacturer guidelines? Thanks for the info!

This post was edited by sheesharee on Mon, Dec 15, 14 at 19:48

What sixtyoho said about steel wool--Steel wool is a no-no when you're using water based materials. Sandpaper for between coats and Scotch-Brite for rubbing out final coat.

Here is a link that might be useful: Sandpaper vs Scotch Brite

What do you think about getting a can of the flat and mixing it with the satin? It'd dull down the gloss but still be more sheen than the flat, probably in the eggshell neighborhood. We mix stains to get the desired hue, why not finishes for sheen?

sixtyhono is right. I didn't look up GF High Performance to see if it was oil or water base. I don't usually use water based finishes.

15, 30, 60, and 90 are manufacturer guidelines. They are not written in stone. We sell spray systems and for a while we sold water based coatings. The products we sold used the numbers and terms.

Ci - Thanks for the link. It was nice to finally see a chart about the Scotch-Brite pads. SHOULD I rub out the final coat? I guess I'm going to have to try this out to see. I had a horrible time trying to find even the maroon scotch brite in stores. Employees looked at me like I had a chicken on my head when I would ask. "Maroon??" (I used a maroon pad for part of the prep work.) What color Scotch Brite would you use for the final coat?

Ghostly - Well, hmm. That is a thought and I wonder how it would turn out. I think I'd like to avoid mixing if I can help it though.

Marti - Sorry I should have mentioned that somewhere in this thread. The stain I used was oil based. GF has three top coats I could pick from. (Two oil and the High Performance water base.) The reviews are great for all three with the exception that many people kept saying the satin was really shiny in the others. After talking with General Finishes they recommended the satin in the High Performance because it has the least sheen. Figured I could also save some brain cells. :)

Sixty - Thanks!

You need to confirm with GF that you can put a waterbased product over an oil based stain. I'm pretty sure you can, but you must be totally sure the stain is dry. A waterbased product won't adhere if there is still oil on the surface.

Right. I talked with them and they also mentioned it needs to be completely dry. They suggested a minimum of three days. At the speed I'm going though it's been much longer, They are quite helpful and have been extremely fast to respond by email.

It won't dry in a cold room, such as my garage.
When you are ready to apply the topcoat, test it in a small area. If it is not dry the coating will walk away, or fish eye. It might look dry, but is still giving off oil.

Shee I can't wait to see your reveal! I know you have been researching and planning this for some time and you always do "good work". Hurry up so we can see!

As far as the sheen - I really don't think the satin will be too "shiny". Horizontal table tops like you posted are always going to pick up more light and look shinier than a vertical surface like cabinet doors. I have only worked with poly and my experience is that the flatter the finish, the "thicker" it looks.

I know you will make the right choice :).

FWIW, the flat finish by general finishes actually has a fair bit of sheen, too. At least it does when used on a painted surface, that I just tried it on. It might be flatter on wood.

Sixty- Thanks for the tip on how to tell if it's dry. I did the stain in a spare room because it was easier, but I was also concerned about the stain not drying. I'm moving my whole station to the basement for the poly.

Tuesday - Ha, I know this is taking forever. This has been something DH & I agree to over a year ago and then we had to wait, wait, wait because it made sense for many reasons, but now that I'm in control to finish it's just dragging. I'm giving myself a deadline for all of it by the end of January. - paint, roman shade, chair covers.... The appliances will then be coming. The can and island lights probably won't happen until March. (I won't wait until March to show pictures!)

Coll - Hmm... good to know. If I'm not happy with another test on an actual (back of) door for the satin I'm going to order the flat.

This post was edited by sheesharee on Tue, Dec 16, 14 at 14:09

If you have a Woodcraft store nearby, you can also puchase small cans there. I feel like the satin is a pretty shiny "satin" and the flat is definitely not flat...again, I'm referring to the way they look on painted surfaces. I used the satin on a stained pine and it was fine, but I only did two coats instead of the recommended three. A third coat might have increased the sheen.

My favorite sealer used to be Graham's Ceramithane in flat- which was more like a soft satin. Only I found that over time it yellowed, despite being water based. Zar's "aniique flat" water based urethane is also quite satin when you get a few coats on. So I haven't found a water based sealer that is truly without sheen, except for Modern Masters dead flat varnish.

Yes, you can put a water-based finish over an oil-based stain. That's what I used on my desk, both of which were GF products and recommended by the nice GF guy I spoke to on the phone.

I had to order the oil-based stain online because nobody in my area sold it. I tested their water-based stain and didn't care for it. The oil-based stain is a joy to apply, at least on cheap oak.

Coll - Unfortunately I don't have one near me. Is it typical for additional coats to add more sheen? I didn't think that would happen as long as everything was mixed well. Hm..

I did the back of a door tonight. Used a foam brush and the finish is great. It was really easy to apply and dried fast. It's pretty shiny and I'm not going to like it if it intensifies with additional coats. I'll check it out tomorrow in different lighting.

The only reason I'm still considering the satin one is because I'm concerned about the wear. As long as there's sheen to the flat, which Coll you're saying there is, I can't imagine it would be that bad. I'm not going to go at the cabinets with a brillo pad either way.

I found this article helpful (link). I'm not going to go there with my kitchen cabinets, but I have a bathroom vanity I'm planning to strip and stain (in all my free time!) so that will be a good place to experiment.

And I found a photo showing the flat finish sprayed on raw wood.
{{gwi:2142684}}

Here is a link that might be useful: rubbing out different finishes

This post was edited by sheesharee on Wed, Dec 17, 14 at 0:59

I just checked: I used GF Wipe-on top coat in satin (the blue can) over Java, and I swear that it's not shiny.

{{gwi:2142685}}

Nosoccer - Hmm.. did you use it over oak? GF told me the High Performance in satin was less shiny than that gel top coat. That was why they recommended it to me. Maybe the photos are really deceiving too. Most all of the gel stained cabinets I've seen look WET in pictures are people are using satin. I read a thread last night where the person used satin because she said they didn't want it too shiny. Looking at the photos, I don't know how it could have been any more reflective.

I ordered the flat. I just have to see it. DH isn't totally loving the satin finish either. It's ok, but we're seeing it on one door. We both prefer how the cabinets look right now so hopefully the flat will be more appealing.

Read stuff (not about GF brand) about flat finishes sometimes getting cloudy after multiple coats. Hopefully that doesn't happen. One was talking about hardwood floors, but temperature ended up being the cause of the problem. I'll make sure to pay attention to that.

I have some free time today and would love to be working on the cabinets. I might work on the roman shade instead.

Thanks for all the thoughts and listening to me go on! I'll give an update.

This post was edited by sheesharee on Wed, Dec 17, 14 at 12:39

yes, it is recommended that you not build up a lot of coats in flat because of the cloudy issue- you could do first coat or two of satin, then flat on top. Or you could experiment with blending flat and satin to come up with the perfect sheen. Using another brand, Ben Moore's Stays Clear, a friend found mixing one part flat to three parts low luster (also a very shiny "satin", IMO) was perfect for her kitchen cabs.

Yes, multiple coats does tend to increase the sheen level sometimes, with some products. It could just be because the wood soaks up more of the product with the first coats, so the more coated it gets, the more sheen it appears to have.

Yes, I used it over the orange builder oak cabinets. However, it's a windowless bathroom, so that may explain it.

Here's well known woodworking writer Bob Flexner on sheen. You can find lots of his finishing tips at TheFinishingStore.com click on newsletters, or search Flexner on the site.
Just so you know, I do some web work for TFS.

Finishing Tip by Bob Flexner: How Sheen Works

The sheen of a finish is measured as the reflectivity of the dried film ��" that is, the sharpness of an image reflected in the surface. Sheens vary from high gloss to very flat. The contrast between gloss and satin sheens is shown in the accompanying picture.gloss-and-satin-sheens.jpg

Finishes are supplied in various sheens, determined by how much flatting agent, which is usually silica, is added. These are usually identified with names such as gloss, semi-gloss, satin, matte, eggshell and flat. The names reflect the manufacturerâÂÂs interpretation and are often chosen for marketing purposes, so the actual sheens you get can vary noticeably among brands.

A more exact, and better, method of identification uses a numbering system from gloss (90 sheen) to flat (10 sheen). Some manufacturers, especially those targeting the professional market, use this system.

You can create your own customized sheen by mixing two sheens of a given finish type together, or by letting the flatting agent in one container settle, then pour off the top half into another container and mix the two parts.

To see what you have, you have to apply at least two coats. After sanding the first coat smooth, apply the second and let it dry. This will give you the accurate sheen.

The final sheen is established by the sheen of the last coat applied, not by an accumulation of sheens of all coats. So you can change the sheen on any surface simply by applying another coat with the desired sheen.

Sheen can also be achieved by rubbing the last coat with abrasives. The last abrasive used will establish the sheen, so you could go from satin to gloss, then back to satin and back to gloss. Once you begin rubbing with abrasives, the flatting-agent-created sheen of the finish youâÂÂre rubbing is no longer a factor. Satin can be rubbed to gloss, and gloss can be rubbed to satin.

The downside of a rubbed sheen is that it shows scratches more easily than a sheen created with flatting agents. Any light abrasion running across the ridges of the rubbed scratches flattens them and appears as a shallow scratch.

Thank you sixtyohno, that was very informative!

After testing both, the flat and satin are very, very similar. After the first coat, I KNOW I used two different kinds so I liked the flat better, but there were times I pulled them both out and was incorrect on guessing which was which. (grain is extremely similar on the doors I tested.)

After two coats the difference is still minimal, but I can pick them out better. The flat looks close to satin to me and the satin looks more semi gloss, IMO. GF said I can layer them together and said the flat could have a cloudy issue depending on how many coats.

I sanded after the first coat with 400 grit paper and managed to remove some of the stain even though I thought I was barely adding pressure. I wasn't too concerned about this door, but that would easily be an issue sanding the raised front panels. I asked GF if I could wait until two coats to sand between (and for) additional coats - they said yes and to use the soft backed sanding sponges because they won't do that. I can't find any in stores with 400 grit, but they said "most are 320 or 220 just feel them and if they don't have a heavy grit they should be good."

Definitely think it would be wise to go way over the recommended three coat minimum. I think something like seven would be better.

I'm using satin for now and will finish the last coat or two with flat.

This post was edited by sheesharee on Tue, Dec 30, 14 at 19:06

I really like it!