Shea,

Thanks for your comments. I know that I am right in principal so I hope that the arbitrator doesn't split the baby. It's a lot of money to lose when we've done nothing wrong but trust her to be the professional she held herself out to be.

I think your description is what happened, but who knows. I've been trying for months to figure out how this happened and how she can continue to do this with a straight face. Nothing really makes sense unless she thought I didn't know enough about this type of furniture.

I just did some more sleuthing. Now I know who delivered the furniture to my house back in late-July, but I don't think that provides much information. I also know the name of the company that supposedly subcontracted out the delivery job on the Mexico end, but that doesn't help much. I don't know who actually delivered it into the country.

There's always been something fishy with her story and the timing. Back in March, right before this furniture was supposed to be delivered, I told the designer the fabrics I wanted for the cushions and pillows. You would think that, if the furniture was going to be delivered in April or May, that she would have ordered the fabrics and had the cushions made in March or April or May. Instead, I have an email from her in July saying that she hadn't ordered the cushions yet because she was trying to work out the insurance claim. But why did she wait those months? I don't know. She just hasn't been honest this entire time.

Even if it is not financially feasible for you to get a lawyer, remember Kreiss has deep pockets and a whole legal department to boot. Luxury brands do take copyright infringement very seriously. If the designer hears Kreiss is going to come knocking at her door, she might see the light with your situation.

As for the winning and the losing, we spent a gob of money on lawyers this summer fighting with our builder over things he failed to disclose and a significant error he made during building. In the end, we did not "win" exactly and our legal fees were a nasty surprise. But, we know in our hearts we were right. We wonder how the builder can sleep at night and we are saddened to have lost so much respect for the man. It's little consolation, but on a karmic level I take some solace knowing we were on the right side of the deal. So are you, Meg. You haven't done anything wrong....except maybe been too nice. :-)

This summer, I bought myself a bottle of champagne to put in the fridge. Every time I went for milk or an apple, I'd see that bottle and remember that someday our building nightmare would be over. Finally the day came and we moved out from under that black cloud. Your day will come too, Meg.

Thanks Amy. I remember reading your posts in which you alluded to some legal battle, and I'm so sorry to hear that it didn't go your way. Isn't it shocking that people can behave this way? And in our small town, I know that our paths will cross sooner or later. Her children are even the same age as ours. We have friends in common. It really stinks.

I have to walk a fine line here because I've been warned that if I threaten too much, I could be guilty of extortion. I wouldn't mind calling in the Kreiss big guns just so I'll know that someone else won't become one of her victims.

I just spoke with someone at a Los Angeles iron works shop and spilled my story. She's going to do some research for me regarding who supplies Kreiss. She really thinks that Kreiss will slap the designer with a lawsuit when they hear the story.

Again, Amy, I'm sorry that your problem wasn't resolved to your satisfaction. Here's to us both getting out from under those nasty black clouds.

I wouldn't think that alerting a manufacturer to infringement would be considered extortion, would it? It's reporting a crime.

Hope you've drunk that champagne now, amy. I've been where you were (on a smaller scale, with a screened porch, but still experienced the stomach-knotting nights of ethical shock), and I'm there again a bit with some skylights we just had put in. Experiences like these are real challenges to the UU Principle that all beings are inherently worthy of respect...

Ethical shock. That's it, Fly! You just keep thinking that the person will come around....stop acting crazy, etc. (Would you believe...my builder is UU???)

Meg, right at the bitter end of our build, we were invited to a fundraiser sponsored by the builder. (My husband has known his wife for many years.) We decided to go as an act of good faith and we believe in the cause. We did go, held our heads high and even made some new friends that night. It was incredibly empowering.

Notifying the manufacturer about the infringement might not be extortion. OTOH, if I threaten the designer that unless she refunds our money, I will report her crimes to the State Attorney General's office or to Kreiss, then it might be considered extortion. Not sure but I don't want to find out the hard way.

Sorry you're going through that flyleft. Whatever happened to integrity?

"""Bottom line is that our designer (who used to work for Kreiss) suggested we go to the local Kreiss store to see if we liked any of their outdoor furniture sets. We chose one that we liked, and she said that she could get it directly from the manufacturer who makes it for Kreiss, at less than what we would have paid if we had ordered it through Kreiss."""

right there I would have had my first problem with the decorator. A 'good' designer would not have tried to sidestep sharing a commission.

Good luck.

ML

That's interesting Maddielee. I didn't think of it that way. What she said sounded legit: That she represents that line of furniture, and Kreiss also buys from that manufacturer. So I could get the same furniture directly from the manufacturer but at a discount. She was cutting out the middle man--the retail store--which I think is done all the time in the design world.

When you have a designer, they can buy certain pieces of furniture for you straight from the manufacturer. You could just as easily purchase those same pieces from a local store, but you don't. So what she did initially did not strike me as unethical.

Of course, now, having seen the furniture, I know differently.

if she actually 'represented' that line, she more then likely would have had an association with the stores in her area that carried the line.

Something is off. Legit 'Decorators' will send you to a 'for the industry only' showroom, before sending you to a commercial furniture store to get the product numbers.

Was she ASID?

I just checked her site and she is NWSID (Northwest Society of Interior Designers) and IIDA (International . . .?), but not ASID.

What burns me is I just saw that she now accepts credit card payments. She didn't take credit cards back then so I paid by check. Interesting.

It's only extortion if you threaten to follow an action without actually planning on following through, or suggest you'll only do it if X isn't done. Turning her into the designer is not a threat, it's a legit action.

Arbitrators are often not attorneys, especially for the BBB. Much of what you're suggesting to do is far and away above the minds of your arbitrators and not valid even if they were attorneys. Asking designers if they require contracts, or what their return policies are....that's of no value to you at this point. Her policy is not required to match any industry standard, so you have to let go of those emotional fights and just go forward with what you have.

My guess, without seeing the paperwork is I'd say if she has signed order forms by you, you are stuck with the product you ordered. But perhaps the emails might help....I don't know because I haven't seen them. I would not hire a PI...this is not a kidnapping case. If you later want to resort to legal action, feel free to do so and if there is an option for a class action suit, you will likely hear about it, but for a simple interior designer I'd find that unlikely. It's too easy for her to go out of business.

I think this is going to come down to luck...if you get a sympathetic and uneducated arbitrator, showing them what you thought you ordered (I would never bring in pics....bring the real thing) verses what you got might get you somewhere. But at this point, it's likely to be about a little revenge and a black mark, which won't hurt her business much and will waste a lot of your time and energy.

I'm sorry that sounds harsh....but I've seen these deals before. It all comes down to the paperwork....

Wow Igloo. I sure hope you're wrong.

I'm not sure I understood what you meant when you said: "Much of what you're suggesting to do is far and away above the minds of your arbitrators and not valid even if they were attorneys."

I do need someone sympathetic but, uneducated? And here I was hoping to get a smart arbitrator who could follow the issues and understand how we got ripped off.

We have invoices, but nothing we signed off on. Nothing in writing saying that what we purchased was not returnable. We never signed for the delivery and made that clear in every email. (We were out of town when she delivered it. And she knew that we were out of town and had wanted to be there.)

I still think we're right and will continue to fight it.

I am sorry you are dealing with all this, Meg. It is so disheartening to do business and act in good faith, only to have the other party be dishonest and deceitful.

I have no experience with this kind of thing, I am just telling you what I am reading and thinking.

I don't see Kreiss being interested in this. The mfg. of the furniture, whoever that person is in Mexico, is NOT representing the product as Kreiss. And, from what you have written, neither is the designer. She said she could get you furniture made by the same mfg - not Kreiss furniture. So I am guessing Kreiss may not want to get involved for this small amount of money (to them) since no one is suggesting that they are selling actual Kreiss furniture.

It is also possible that the mfg. is legit. Even legit mfg. have different lines and different price points, so they have the quality that they make for Kreiss, and then they have the lesser price point lines, which are essentially knock-offs, but that is not illegal.

So here's what I think the questions may be:

Did she say she was ordering Kreiss furniture?

It doesn't sound like she did. She only said she could get furniture LIKE the Kreiss pieces.

Did you pay the same price as you would have for Kreiss, or a lesser price?

From what you have written, you paid less than you would have for Kreiss pieces.

Was there ever a discussion about the quality, style and colors being identical?

It appears that you have no paperwork to support that. And in cases of real property, I don't believe that a verbal contract is generally binding. So what was said is really not relevant.

Returnable?

I think the accepted standard is that custom orders are not returnable, and what you had was a custom order.

I hate to say this, but the arbitrator may look at it as a case of 'you get what you pay for'. You didn't pay for Kreiss, you didn't want to order from Kreiss, so the arbitrator may reason why should you be made whole in your claim that you got lesser quality if you weren't willing to do business with the source and pay the price for that quality?

I also think that you must recognize the difference between what she did, and what happens with another decorator ordering from the source instead of buying at retail. It is one thing for a decorator to get a client something at wholesale - bypassing the retail outlet, dealing direct with the mfg. But in those cases you are still buying the brand, just at a lesser price. What your decorator did was instead of buying Kreiss at retail, and getting you a wholesale Kreiss price, she got you items that were NOT Kreiss nor would they carry the Kreiss label.

As for Igloo's comment about many of the things you are suggesting not being valid if even if they were attorneys. I don't presume to speak for Igloo, but what I think she is trying to say is that while there may be some things that occurred that are unfair, bad business practice, or immoral, they MAY NOT be illegal. The purpose of law is to uphold those issues that are defined in law. The nuances of she was a bad businessperson, didn't respond about colors, took forever to get answers, are not legal issues that would be part of arbitration.

I hope that the arbitration ends up with you getting some of your money back. I am thinking that you might get the difference between the cost of the furniture and her personal profit, if that can be determined, and you will keep the furniture. More than that I would not expect.

I hope that you get a great arbitrator, and even if the decorator doesn't have to eat the whole expense and return all the money, I hope it teaches her a lesson and is enough to get her out of the business, to prevent this from happening elsewhere. Problem is, if she is an interior decorator (rather than an interior designer), and your state doesn't require licensing to operate, there may be nothing to keep her from doing this again.

Meg, any reputable designer will make good anything that is substandard that is special ordered. The keyword is "reputable."

I have ordered things that did not arrive on time, were not in the right fabric, dimensions were not as ordered, etc. --all over the years, and EVERY SINGLE ITEM was redone to be made right or it was cancelled and I did not pay for it.

The woman almost sounds like a "housewife decorator"----the kind that gets into the business because all her friends tell her "you should be a decorator" and she doesn't have the slightest idea how to actually conduct the business. The professional organization to which she belongs may have no other requirement than to have been in business for two years----or it may simply only require the payment of a registration fee. ASID is the professional affiliation for designers, imo. I know many will argue that a person can be talented and a good and ethical business person without that designation, but I won't hire anyone without it. They are BOUND to certain professional standards that are spelled out and the education requirements are the highest.

I wish you well with this arbitration. I do hope this is a warning to everyone else---if you plan to spend a good deal of money with a "decorator," make sure the person is properly qualified and vetted FIRST. The fact that the person has "good taste" or your friends have hired him or her and had a good experience does not mean the decorator is in any way qualified to handle a large, complex order that may have to be refunded.

Meg, I am an intellectual Property Paralegal working in the field of trademarks, copyrights and patents for over 25 years. I am considered one of the top experts in my field. I think I know what happened based on your postings and as someone else outlined it here"She's basically stealing their designs, getting them made for less at some shop, and claiming it's from their manufactuer" You also said "In all her emails, she said that she bought this furniture from the manufacturer who supplies Kreiss."

I think this is the nail on the head, she took Kreiss' designs and gave them to someone else to knock it off.

So I did a bit of research on Kreiss. The company is Kreiss Enterprises and I saw from one of the specimens they submitted that it is the same mfg of the Kreiss furniture you wanted. Here is what you do. Write, call, fax or email Marvin H. Kleinburg, Esq. at Kleinburg & Lerner, LLP, 2049 Century Pike, Suite 1080, Los Angeles, California 90067. His telephone number is 310-557-1571 or fax number 310-557-1540. He is the Intellectual Property Counsel for Kreiss.

I would specifically tell him about the designer and the fact that she told you that "In all her emails, she said that she bought this furniture from the manufacturer who supplies Kreiss." and more importantly that you have pictures of the specific Kreiss furniture that you wanted and the furniture that you received. Tell him that you suspect that she took the designs for the original set you wanted to someone else and had them copy the furniture. Tell him that when the furniture was received you could immediately tell from the quality and construction, it was NOT Kreiss furniture at all. Also explain that the furniture is inferior and give all the additional information that you have.

IP owners take their proprietary rights very very seriously and actually appreciate consumers reporting such acts to them.

If you can I would call him today and speak with him to give him an overview of what is going on and then would follow up with details and pictures via email or fax.

When you call if you mention that you believe that you may have been a victim of copyright, design, patent and possibly trademark infringement, trust me he will listen.

Just so you know the way I found his information is that I went to the United States Patent and Trademark Office website, looked up the trademark Kreiss and then found out the name of the IP lawyer and firm handling their trademarks. Quick two minute search.

If any of you ever have a problem such as Meg's and you want to get past the generic general telephone #'s or contact information just go to uspto.gov and do a quick search. It is very easy to find the information.

I take this stuff very very seriously and it burns me to no end! Meg if you want to contact me privately, send me an email through GW and I'll get you my contact information.

I would follow Deborahnj's advice to the letter and see how fast the refund from the decorator's lawyer husband is received. :)

"That shipment alone was $80,000 worth of outdoor furniture, so you can do the math. "

This is why I like GW, it's like a whole 'nuther world...

"Notifying the manufacturer about the infringement might not be extortion." It is definitely NOT extortion. My guess is that the ID was NOT banking on the fact that you would know or understand intellectual property issues and counterfeiting or would have a support group such as us to turn to for guidance.

If she did what I think she did, it is illegal pure and simple. Counterfeiting and trafficking in counterfeited goods is illegal. Not to mention if the mfg she was allegedly working with is a true mfg of Kreiss and assisted her, if Kreiss finds out and they will if you do as I suggested, then they are in huge and I mean huge trouble as well.

If you don't mind, I just wanted to correct one more thing.

"It is also possible that the mfg. is legit. Even legit mfg. have different lines and different price points, so they have the quality that they make for Kreiss, and then they have the lesser price point lines, which are essentially knock-offs, but that is not illegal."

Les I just wanted to correct that this is not true. If a company knocks off another, it is illegal. You can take a piece and use is as inspiration with substantial modifications but you can't knock-off or copy the item. That is intellectual property infringement.

Sorry guys for the multiple posts but I am extremely passionate about what I do and protecting the owner as well as the consumer. Infringement costs us all and is a multi-billion dollar business. The results for us as consumers are increased prices. For the Intellectual property owner, they invest large sums of money to create, design, market and sell product to the consumer and their rights should be protected.

OK, I'm getting off my soapbox, getting dressed and going to find an Xmas tree.

Hi all,

Just checking in before I start my day and although I don't have time to respond to everyone's post, I did want to say a couple things:

Les: Thanks for your comments. The arbitrator may very well decide that I got what I paid for, but I certainly hope not. It was always understood that I would be getting the same exact furniture direct from the Kreiss manufacturer. True, it wouldn't be branded or labeled as Kreiss, but it would be exactly the same in all other ways. In fact, when I first told the designer that I was unhappy with the furniture, she emailed me, and I quote: "Honestly, I am very surprised that you would think this is not the same furniture you went and sat on at Kreiss. I ordered the furniture from the same manufacturer as Kreiss does. The Capri style you choose is the exact style ordered - none of the dimensions have changed . . . " And further: "I am not sure if you looked closely at the patio furniture while you were at Kreiss however, it is exactly the same. I have been working with this product for 9 years now . . ." I think those words are pretty damning.

littledog: No, no, no. My furniture was not $80,000. My furniture was but a part of a bigger shipment that was worth $80,000. So if she "saved" me 33% or 50%, she took roughly $120,000 to $160,000 worth of furniture sales away from Kreiss. She recently told the BBB that she sold it to me at 1/3 the retail price and with that estimate, she took $240,000 worth of furniture sales away from Kreiss.

kswl: She is definitely a designer, and not a decorator. She does not belong to the ASID and I wish that I had understood the distinction when I interviewed designers. She's definitely not reputable in any event.

deborahnj: Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! I am surprised I hadn't thought of that route myself, although I had searched online for patent info and found various protected Kreiss pieces, but not the Capri style. I mentioned earlier that she is trying to distance herself from Kreiss, so in none of her BBB responses did she mention that she used to work for them, or that the manufacturer she used supposedly supplies Kreiss as well. Instead she made up this story: "At no time did I receive any specific dimension requirements - or for that matter any details - [meg] provided me with a photograph of furniture she saw at a local retail store and asked if I could have it made for her. I offered a product that was very similar in design for 1/3 of the retail price. I never promised [meg] Kreiss furniture - if she wanted Kreiss furniture she should have purchased it from the retail store."

Sounds like she was taking their design and copying it to me. There was never a discussion that it would be different, or of different quality, and certainly no discussion that it would be inferior or substandard. I always thought she was getting a regular run from the same manufacturer that supplies Kreiss.

I'm not convinced that contacting Kreiss is going to get me my check any faster. I think it might make them angrier. I just know that I don't want anyone else to go through this torture.

I just realized how stupid my last line sounds. No, I realize that what I'm going through is not torture. And while so many others are experiencing very serious, life-changing problems, I don't want to sound insensitive to others and their real problems. Thanks again for your advice and support.

I am a decorator, not a designer, and to answer a few of your questions:
*The things that are non-returnable in my business are custom items, such as window treatments, upholstery, etc. I have had clients pick a fabric and be deadset on it even when I tell them that I don't think it is a good choice. Then when the item comes they don't like it.
*If I make a mistake in ordering, I "eat" that mistake! (It has never happened to me... I check and double check before placing orders!)
*I have given refunds to keep my client happy! Most of the time I can count it as a loss or I might be able to use it with another client.

Good Luck!

Just to clarify: I understand that custom items in general cannot be returned on a whim, or because one has changed her mind. But in this case, it's because what I received is not at all what I had ordered. It was not made properly. The same would be true with window treatments, or a custom dress. Let's say I went to a dressmaker and she showed me a dress that I liked, and I asked her to make it for me in blue. If she delivers a purple dress with one sleeve longer than the other, a crooked hem, and awful seams, I am entitled to get my money back despite her argument that she made the dress for me. It was not what I ordered, and of inferior workmanship.

I believe someone else brought up a good point that this furniture is more accurately called made to order, not custom.

Jandasmom, it sounds like you are a good business person and one who wants to satisfy her clients. I wish that my former designer would act as professionally. Good luck with your business.

meg - I've been following this thread, & I wish you the best of luck at being made whole, but I admit that I'm scratching my head at your reluctance to contact Kreiss directly.

It just seems to me, from what those in the know are saying, that that's your best & perhaps only really viable?) option at getting full restitution.

I do hope you follow deborahnj's advice - it sure sounds solid to me.

Deborah! You're brilliant. Fab work and cool to know about the Trademarks office.

Hi Moonkat,

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure that Kreiss will not get involved in our dispute, so contacting Kreiss will not cause our former designer to refund our money. Getting Kreiss involved, if they care about what she's doing, hopefully will be able to prevent her from doing this to anyone else. And they could possibly go after her for the lost business she caused them, but I don't know about that.

Originally, when I naively thought that I would easily get a refund, I had gone to the Kreiss showroom and priced out the set. I explained vaguely that I was having a problem with a previous order of outdoor furniture but planned to buy furniture from them once it was resolved. I am still in contact with them and they know that my problem is still not resolved--although they do not know the details or how the Kreiss Capri furniture figures into things. I don't want to say too much, but involving the local store might impact my ability to present my best case at the arbitration hearing.

Thanks again Deborah. I really appreciate your help.

Meg, the problem I have with this whole thing is that Kreiss is the manufacturer. Designers have wholesale access to manufacturers, for their own markup/retail sale, not to the factories that produce the items for companies. There is no way to 'go around them' to get their products directly, as the discussion goes. That would be an illegal trade arrangement with a factory that a company uses to have their items made.

Beyond that, Kreiss's website shows that they even have their own factory at their headquarters in CA. So their whole furniture operation, from concept through design, development, and production, is an entirely family-owned and controlled process and business entity.

You're right that Kreiss will not be interested in your personal dispute with with a decorator or losses, but they will likely be very interested in checking out whatever she is up to (even though she doesn't seem to have had access to their proprietary information to be able to actually produce that good product they worked so hard on).

I think the only hope for reimbursement is to show the made-to-order pieces side by side, so to speak. So that the poor quality yet high-end pricing speaks for itself.

Hi Squirrel!

That's what I thought, too: that Kreiss is the manufacturer. That's what it says on their website. But when I called their NY corporate office a couple months ago, someone there confirmed that they do buy some of their outdoor furniture from a manufacturer in Mexico. (But she wouldn't tell me the name.) I'm not sure how Kreiss can say that they do all their manufacturing in San Diego when they actually buy some of it from a Mexican manufacturer, but so be it.

In this case, the factory is the manufacturer, or so it seems. I can't really call it a factory as I'm convinced that it's some guy working out of his garage in Mexico.

Interestingly, when I spoke with someone at another iron works place yesterday, she said this is pretty common. They have master blacksmiths who after working for them for 25 years then quit, and try to open up a shop from their garage. They try to stop them from taking their designs but it's very difficult.

I'll let you know what I decide to do. DH thinks that calling Kreiss is pretty hard-core.

Meg, please contact the Kreiss attorney. If the designer told you "It was always understood that I would be getting the same exact furniture direct from the Kreiss manufacturer. True, it wouldn't be branded or labeled as Kreiss, but it would be exactly the same in all other ways. In fact, when I first told the designer that I was unhappy with the furniture, she emailed me, and I quote: "Honestly, I am very surprised that you would think this is not the same furniture you went and sat on at Kreiss. I ordered the furniture from the same manufacturer as Kreiss does. The Capri style you choose is the exact style ordered - none of the dimensions have changed . . . " And further: "I am not sure if you looked closely at the patio furniture while you were at Kreiss however, it is exactly the same. I have been working with this product for 9 years now . . ." I think those words are pretty damning."

The statement above and if this is what she told you she was going to do is infringement, pure and simple. It is wrong period.

Most corporations have contractual agreements with their manufacturers that includes NOT doing what this designer stated that she could do for you and that is going to Kreiss' manufacturer to have your furniture made. Again what she promised is illegal and definitely counterfeiting of the Kreiss's product.

If you tell the lawyer that the designer specifically told you that "ordered the furniture from the same manufacturer as Kreiss does and it wouldn't be branded or labeled as Kreiss, but it would be exactly the same in all other ways", he is definitely going to sit up and take notice.

It could be that getting him involved and essentially the company, they could put pressure on her to return your money. At the very least, it will prevent her from doing this to someone else.

FYI, it is commonly known that one of the tricks of the counterfeiting trade is for the manufacturer after hours to make additional items according to spec and then sell said merchandise to counterfeiters. The manufacturers of course are not allowed to do this and are contractually bound not to do it as well. If the designer according to what she told you she could do for you did this, this is hard core and just legally and contractually wrong.

I think with everything you have been through, one phone call, fax or email won't hurt. Again if you want to contact me off line, I can assist you with drafting a letter to the attorney and you can fax it along with pictures and snippets or copies of her email statements to you.

Meg,

I think you should follow Deborah's advice. I don't specialize in IP law but what I'm reading from her appears to be spot on, logical, and reasonable. PLEASE contact the attorney for Kreiss even if it is merely for the purpose of alerting this company to the facts and to try to prevent this from occurring in the future. Sure, it may not get you any money refunded from this designer any faster - which, given her irrational behavior could be the case even if they flat out sued her - but it may prevent her from following the same deceptive practices in the future. It's a public service.

Meg, To use your DH's words, patent law infringement is a HARD CORE violation of law. I'd do what deborahnj suggests, too.

Meg, were any emails sent in which you specifically mentioned that you believed you were getting Kreiss furniture from the Kreiss manufacturer but not paying Kreiss prices and essentially doing an end-run around the retailer, colluding with the decorator to do just that? If you have been a knowing party to buying "pirated" furniture that is akin to someone downloading illegal music for less money than the regular online price. Doing this knowingly could make you liable, too. Or it would be difficult to complain that the decorator did not fulfill her end of the bargain when you were a willing participant in an illegal transaction. If you go to Kreiss and the decorator is prosecuted for fraud, you stand to lose everything too.

After reading Kswl's comments, I re-read this thread again and copied specific statements from Meg into word to make sure that I was reading them in context. The last thing I would want to do in get you in trouble!

Meg, since she represented herself that "she represents that line of furniture, and Kreiss also buys from that manufacturer. So I could get the same furniture directly from the manufacturer but at a discount. She was cutting out the middle man--the retail store--which I think is done all the time in the design world." then you should have no problems as it appears you did nothing wrong.

Now if she came to you and specifically said that she would take photos of the Kreiss items in the showroom and then would take said photos to a 3rd party to recreate and make the furniture, then I would be worried. Kswl would be absolutely correct in that you participated in this and thus contributed to IP infringement.

However, it sounds like she didn't do that at all. What also is particularly disturbing and I didn't catch it before, you indicated that she is a former employee of Kreiss. This makes the whole situation so much worse as she definitely terminated ANY relationships she had with Kreiss unless they SPECIFICALLY contracted her to offer merchandise on their behalf. Again based on your situation this was clearly not the case.

For everyone, I have to apologize for my postings as I don't know how to change the font to bold or italics!

If I were Kreiss, I would not give a hoot that a small town designer is selling a few sets of obviously copied and substandard quality furniture that is similar to the ones Kreiss sells, I would say, " meg, you got what you paid for".

The designer is dragging this out as long as she can, so she won't have to part with her money unless a court orders her to reimburse Meg. She knows she might eventually be ordered by a court to reimburse, but in the meantime, she knows Meg has to pursue this on her own nickel and time, their relationship is severed. Designer has nothing to gain in satisfying Meg unfortunately.

I'm still wishing you luck, meg, in getting your money back, your saga has always drawn many comments and long threads, and the exchanges are interesting to read for us all, as consumers.

I've been using the same designer for years, he is my retailer, the contacts he has to purchase things on my behalf are bona fide showrooms that sell directly to him, he sell those things to me with a markup to cover his time and expertise.

Deborahnj, I wasn't suggesting that Meg did anything wrong, but it may have occurred to her that some email she wrote could sound incriminating and as though she were well aware that she was colluding in defrauding Kreiss.

Emails are problematic. Less is more...

"My furniture was not $80,000. My furniture was but a part of a bigger shipment that was worth $80,000."

OIC. I wondered what kind of small claims you had that 80,000 wasn't worth going to court over. I'm a little disappointed though, I imagined you were furnishing an entire rooftop garden somewhere, and I was just *dying* to see pictures. ;^)

Hi all,

I'm back. And I'm worried even though I did nothing wrong--but trust her.

There are so many emails and, taken out of context, they could be incriminating. But I can explain everything and it should count for something that my story has remained the same over time--while hers keeps changing and is inconsistent. That's one of the good things about telling the truth: you never have to remember what you've said previously. Hopefully the arbitrator will be able to tell who is telling the truth.

But all of this is smoke and mirrors to obscure what will be the main argument: Are we right in demanding a refund rather than allowing the manufacturer to make a replacement set. I guess that main argument does hinge on who the manufacturer actually is, and the quality of their work. I would just like this to be over.

The problem, as I'm seeing it now, is that that would be asking for a Kreiss knock-off :( I don't see how you can take that to court, really, other than explaining you got sucked into something you didn't realize at the time and would now like to be reimbursed as you got a horrible set delivered to your home in your absence, paid in full. But they also say ignorance is not an excuse with the law, so even though you may not have thought the whole thing through at the outset, I'm just getting a bad feeling about how they're going to look at this. Certainly they can't tell her to go ahead and try to make another set just like the Kreiss, which is what she promised, or that you should have given her another chance to try to make another set just like the Kreiss. It's illegal.

"she represents that line of furniture, and Kreiss also buys from that manufacturer. So I could get the same furniture directly from the manufacturer but at a discount. She was cutting out the middle man--the retail store--which I think is done all the time in the design world."

But you and the designer weren't cutting out the retailer-you were trying to cut out the legal maker/distributor of the furnitur.

I agree with squirrelheaven; I can't help but think that any arbitrator is going to conclude after all is said and done that you were trying to get brand namefurniture without paying for it and it didn't work out.

I know that sounds harsh but the whole 'I was supposed to get Kreiss without paying Kreiss prices' just doesn't wash to me.

Ann

Call me naive and trusting, but when we ordered this furniture from her, it didn't seem unreasonable that she could get the same furniture directly from the manufacturer, and at a discount. She said she reps several furniture lines including the manufacturer who also supplies Kreiss. (For what it's worth, she also reps Clayton Marcus furniture.) When we received the furniture, my first email to her complained that she had provided us with shoddy knock-offs, and that the furniture was not from the direct manufacturer of whom she had always spoken. I really didn't fully understand the implications. And hopefully I won't get into trouble because I know I didn't do anything wrong.

And, speaking of which, before I had read these latest posts, I bit the bullet and called Marv Kleinberg. He was very nice, and very interested. He gave me Michael Kreiss's number and suggested I call his assistant, say that I would like to speak to him directly--that Marv Kleinberg suggested I talk with him directly about something that will be of great interest to him.

And now, of course, I'm consumed with guilt. When I explained my hesitancy to Marv Kleinberg--about how difficult it will be to run into her socially--he said, "Of course it's difficult to run into a thief. She ripped you off." So it's easier to see it that way, but I still don't like the idea that she might be sued, etc.

I don't know if this helps, but I used to work for a furniture manufacturer that supplied "exclusive" lines of furniture for certain stores. We could not sell that SKU of furniture to another customer. However, we could change one detail (like the style of bun feet), list it as a different sku number, and sell it to anyone. I believe it was (and is) common knowledge to people in the manufacturing industry that this happens. Even if we didn't offer a "twin" sku, you could usually find another style that was very similar. Anything made in our plant was of the same quality. (That location took great pride in their workmanship.) The furniture manufacturer added very little mark-up. The retail price was usually 3x (or more!) the cost to the retailer. Any individual could call and place an order for furniture. You just needed insider knowledge of sku numbers and fabric numbers (b/c we weren't going to sit down with you to review all the options!) and you needed to arrange your own shipping.

If I had talked with that same designer, I would have expected to receive a very similar (but not exact) replica of the Capri style made in the same manufacturing plant having the same quality. The designer never should have promised an exact replica.

I do not know how patents play into this since none of our furniture designs were patented. (In the case of the furniture, my company, the manufacturer, designed all the furniture styles. When we previewed the styles, certain stores would basically stake claim to one or more style.) I guess I am just saying that I can understand how you as a customer expected to receive similar furniture without doing anything illegal.

Nin

Meg - I think you are being too nice. She did not care that she ripped you off, you shouldn't care that she may potentially be caught doing something illegal.

I would not allow my fear of seeing her socially and having common friends, prevent me from righting a wrong and preventing other people from getting tricked.

Companies (large and small) DO take IP law very seriously. They may not take her to court, but at the very least, they will send a "cease and desist" letter telling her that if she doesn't stop, they will take legal action. Either way, she is ripping off Kreiss and innocent consumers to put money in her own pockets and needs to be stopped.

I'm sorry you're going though this. I wish you the best of luck at the arbitrators but I still would contact Kriess and make them aware of this person's shady practices.

Meg, I'm glad you called. I also answered your other post.

To everyone, furniture can be covered by copyrights (most are), trademarks, trade dress and patents (covering design and/or functionality).

Meg, I'm glad you called the patent lawyer. You are being nice and it's been obvious that you've had a hard time with this situation. However, it's people who have been wronged and do something about it who end up preventing the wrongs happening to others. IMO, that's the best "nice thing" that one can do. Good luck.

To answer (some of) your original question(s), whenever I've worked with a decorator they have 100% stood behind the products they've helped me obtain. Recently a headboard I had made (through the designer) was delivered in the wrong colorway: I refused delivery and called the designer. They immediately (& kindly) apologized and said they would take care of it. Within twenty-four hours they called me back to let me know it was being made again, in the correct colorway and as a rush order. She was professional, courteous (but not obsequious) and sounded genuinely kind and concerned about my (headboard) happiness.

Then when the delivery company the designer had contracted gave me a hard time just this past Thursday (trying to charge me for a redelivery fee when delivering the new, correct headboard) I called her again. Again, she immediately did everything right, she said all the right things (sincerely apologized, told me I was right, said she would contact the delivery company, etc.), and took care of it.

Like a few above respondents (and I'm sorry I didn't carefully read all of them -- you've a lot of supporters out there!) my experience has been that the designer / decorator is my advocate and has left me feeling cossetted. The only negative experience I had (and it was a doozy) was with an unethical kitchen designer and we contentiously parted ways. But she'd made it abundantly clear that if anything hit the fan I'd be left to clean it up. Alone. She'd be off getting her nails done and screwing her next client.

We "lost" some money with her but when I think of the money we would have lost (and that I would have had to spend in therapy / legal fees!) had we continued our "relationship" with her it was well worth it.

She happens to be our neighbor! Well, a few houses up the street but we see each other all the time, walking, driving, etc. So I totally understand the uncomfortable social situations! But at the end of the day, I really was right, and not just because "the customer is always right." I was right because I was consistent, forthright, genuine and HONEST. She, like your former designer, was inconsistent, evasive, disingenuous and a prevaricator. Period.

Mitch:
"If I were Kreiss, I would not give a hoot that a small town designer is selling a few sets of obviously copied and substandard quality furniture that is similar to the ones Kreiss sells, I would say, " meg, you got what you paid for"."

You should see the police going after Chanel and Louis Vuitton fakes in LA's Santee Alley. Counterfeiting is an international operation, and serious business.

Meg--Why on earth are you feeling guilty? She's the person who stole from them, passed off shoddy goods to you, and she's obviously feeling no shame or guilt! If she really cared two hoots about you or her reputation, she'd have refunded your money a long time ago.

ideefixe, no one is happier than I am if the police are cracking down on the counterfeiters, it's serious business, I agree totally.

My point with the Kreiss furniture is that there are always cheaper versions of anything expensive and good quality ; meg herself said her patio furniture is
a far cry from what the Kreiss looks like.

Meg's furniture is not stamped or labelled as Kreiss, ( a counterfeit Chanel purse, for example, has the Chanel logo on it ) her designer led her to believe it would be the identical thing, she lied , which is why meg is not a happy customer.

I have no idea if Kreiss has patents or trademarks on their designs, but I've seen many similar styles of wrought iron chairs in different price points, they are popular.

You shouldn't feel bad if this decorator gets sued--she stole from you and possibly from the designer/manufacturer of the furniture. It is no different than if she saw money on the table while at your house and took it when she left.
I'll bet that she dropping your name when she is being interviewed by prospective clients so that she wins the contract. People like this don't usually learn their lesson unless they are made to pay up. Even then they usually find other ways to cheat. Here you're worried about her 'cause you're a nice person while she is on to the next potenial client and giving your name as a reference.
I hope you win this--I'm tired of the bad guys in today's world. I have dealt with people like this and all I can say is--it is even harder when you're related to them! Good Luck.

If you Google "Kreiss Capri furniture", this thread comes up on the first page. If Kreiss is pro-actively watching for counterfeit activities, they'd see this immediately.

High tech companies and some consumer brands do this (pro-actively search for trademark infringements). It's a serious problem and costs legitimate companies millions of dollars every year.

This thread is so interesting and it also shows that the buyer must beware that there are so many unethical business people in this world. I had to learn also the hard way. I sure hope Meg711 follows DeborahNJ's advice and I hope she wins.

Please keep us updated. We have the most caring members on this forum who really try to help one another.