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justretired_gw

BM Philadelphia Cream

justretired
9 years ago

Hi

Our local Ben Moore dealer has closed up shop and so I am trying to get used to Sherwin Williams colors. Can anyone tell me what SW color would translate closely to Phil. Cream?

There used to be a website that did this but despite persistent googling I cannot find it. I figure that some color/paint savvy people on here would surely know:)

Also, would those who have used PC recommend it for a north facing room?

Thanks

Comments (52)

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thank you Holly and May.

    I tried having the local SW dealer mix BM White Dove and it did not turn out at all. I had some White Dove left so was able to compare and they just could not get it right. That is why I was hoping to find something close to Phil. Cream in the SW color.

    I am SO happy to hear that Jersey Cream looks good in your north facing room, Holly. I have been agonizing over this color selection for about a month. Am switching from Chestertown Buff (which looks great but I am tired of the color) and want something that will not look dingy in the room.

    There are so many awesome colors out there but I feel my light is so limiting:(

    Thanks, ladies.

  • Holly- Kay
    9 years ago

    You're very welcome just. If you decide on JC I hope you will love it as much as I do. It truly is a lovely color and makes my room look so much brighter.

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi Linelle

    I looked at images of Phil. Crm. and see what you mean. In some pictures it looked as I hope it would look in my room. In other pictures it looks very yellow and I do not want that. I just want a darker (not "dirty") creamy white if that makes sense. I have Dove White trim and crown so need some contrast butâ¦â¦

    Thank you for your input. This is so-o-o-o difficult.

  • Bunny
    9 years ago

    justretired, there are lots of creamy whites in most of the "white cabinets" discussions on the Kitchens forum. A lot depends on one's perspective. I have BM Cloud White on my kitchen cabs and to me it's a soft white, but others think it's way too creamy. I have SW Antique White on most of my walls and it can range from creamy to light beige, depending on the light. Here it is on the wall of my bathroom with white toilet and subways for comparison:

    Phil Cream is way yellower.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    9 years ago

    Can anyone tell me what SW color would translate closely to Phil. Cream?

    The closest is SW 6393 Convivial Yellow. Difference between colors is called Delta E. See chart:

    0- 1 A normally invisible difference
    1 - 2 Very small difference, only obvious to a trained eye
    2 - 3.5 Medium difference, also obvious to an untrained eye
    3.5 - 5 An obvious difference
    > 6 A very obvious difference

    The delta between Phil. Cream and Convivial Yellow is 2.2-ish.

  • louislinus
    9 years ago

    I had Philadelphia Cream at my old house and also tested Jersey Cream. They are both definitely yellow. JC being the brighter of the two. Antique White, which I have in my new house, is a nice cream.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    9 years ago

    According to encycolorpedia, the closest SW colors are
    Jersey Cream (dE=0.836)
    Cachet Cream (dE=2.078)
    Inviting Ivory (dE=2.097)

    If you have access to Behr, their Satin Souffle is even closer (delta E=0.521)

    This post was edited by AnnieDeighnaugh on Mon, Sep 15, 14 at 8:57

  • boystown
    9 years ago

    Wonder what Antique White would do in a south facing room? Sorry did not mean to hijack this thread.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    9 years ago

    Every time I see this thread topic I keep wanting to add "cheese" to it...y'know where my head is at!

  • Holly- Kay
    9 years ago

    LOL Annie, I think of cream cheese too whenever I see PC mentioned.

    It's funny that Jersey Cream is described as yellow and I have to admit on the card it had a definite yellow cast to it, but on our walls it is a lovely creamy shade. I suppose that the light in the room is what makes a paint appear this way or that. I had many samples but went with the JC because it was a happy color and it had a high LRV. IMO, my walls do not look yellow.

  • vedazu
    9 years ago

    I'm renovating a house far from the paint store I like. They just ship it (250 miles) and I get it in a day. If you know the BM color, get the nearest dealer to throw it on the UPS truck!

  • Bunny
    9 years ago

    gagesgranny, aside from my master bedroom and the unfortunate bathroom sporting Phil Cream, my entire house is Antique White, including most of the ceilings. The photo I included above has a southern exposure. My living room (AW) has a western exposure. In the late afternoon the color of the walls is utterly sublime, the color of sunshine. Not yellow, something else, a drop of gold perhaps.

  • boystown
    9 years ago

    Thank you linelle, Antique White in beautiful in your photo. Going to grab a sample and see how it works in my light. I was wanting to go for a "sunshine" look.

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thank you everyone for your replies.

    Linelle, your picture has encouraged me to add Antique White to my list. I notice you do not have it in a north room? I have a list of potential Kitchen Forum paints on my list also. Thanks for reminding me to hop over there.

    Vedazu: Never thought to have Ben Moore UPS me a desired paint color. Good advice! There is a store an hour away and if I have other things to do in that town I do make the drive. The trouble with me is that I am indecisive, used to make multiple trips to the BM store in my town before picking a color. I am beyond bummed that they stopped carrying the paint.

    Fun, Annie and louislinus: Thank you for the suggestions. They are on my list, I am heading to SW this afternoon.

    Thanks again everyone.

  • Bunny
    9 years ago

    justretired, I have no exclusively north-facing rooms, however, my open plan living and dining rooms have windows on the north side. They have the benefit of eastern (the best) and western light. As I sit in the space right now, with windows and light coming from everywhere but the south, AW is varied by how the light falls. At its plainest, it is beige-y. Mostly it is warm and reminiscent of rich buttercream or custard.

  • citywoman2012
    9 years ago

    justretired I have had this picture saved in my favorites
    fooooooooreverrrrrrrrrr.
    It is Philad Cream and it does not look yellow to me but
    what can I say......my son says I'm color-blind.
    Its very pretty.

  • Baroo2u
    9 years ago

    Just Retired, I too have a north facing room to overhaul. It was painted a mid tone bright yellow when I moved in and somehow looked dismal and garish at the same time. I primed and painted SW Constant Cream hoping for subdued warmth and it just looks drab and dirty in that light. I'm now exploring saturated mid tones...

    FYI, I have both SW and BM color decks but neither dealer within 2 hrs. Home Depot color matches both brands and samples are less expensive, and can be mixed in a pearl equivalent--since I almost never use flat latex, sampling colors in flat sheen throws me off.

  • Bunny
    9 years ago

    citywoman, that is NOT Philadelphia Cream, despite the BM label. They either totally got it wrong or the color has been completely changed. Found the attached online. Of course, the lighting accentuates the yellow aspect, but it is much more accurate than the pic you have shown.

  • dakota01
    9 years ago

    Based on a suggestion from a poster here - I tried a sample of Philadelphia Cream and it was very YELLOW on my walls. On her pictures it looked like a very pretty creamy color.
    I guess it's my furnishings, flooring and lighting. I did not go with it.

  • Boopadaboo
    9 years ago

    Cream has to be the hardest color to pick! I can't wait to see what you come up with. Took me about 20 samples (BM) to find one I liked recently. MOnitors can be way off too which doesnt help. there was a huge difference between my laptop monitor and my ipad. My ipad was more accurate.

  • Fluffeebiskits1
    9 years ago

    May I suggest visiting your nearest paint store or big box store with an open mind and finding a cream color that just speaks to you (unless you're patching and need the exact color). I say this because I have found it very difficult to match something that I had in another brand to the new brand. You may be missing some really good options by trying to match the 1000s of colors out there to 1 BM color and if you don't have the color chip with you, its next to impossible.

    And utilize what brands you have access to. I am a die-hard, 40% off sale shopping, on a first name basis witht the staff, know my color names by number Sherwin Williams fan. But if all I had was Lowes or Home Depot or Ace, then I'd make that work. Each carries crappy, mediocre, and good paint lines. Recently painted with Glidden Premium, and while it wouldn't be my first choice, it was really good paint for the price ($20). Aside from specialty paint, the middle-grade stuff usually gets the job done. Fyi...the Glidden deck has some nice colors, but you have to ask to see the full fan deck below the counter.

    Not to sound pushy or like a know-it-all, but picking whites and grays can be the hardest. Saw many customers struggle with that one. Just think being open to what catches your eye may make the task less daunting. Chances are you will be going through a few samples anyway. Just in case, I'll list some nice creams I've encountered as both the homeowner and the paint store employee.

    SW:
    alabaster, dollop of cream, french vanilla, corona, dover white, divine white, classic light buff, downy, medici ivory, and a la mode.

    PPG/Pittsburg:
    Capri cream, vanilla wafer, tailored linen, heavy cream, accolade

    Behr:
    Vanilla milkshake, cozy cottage, cottage white, butter yellow, cornerstone, opal cream, and clean canvas.

    Pratt & Lanbert:
    Ancestral, ivory mist, and linen.

    In any case, best of luck and I hope the room turns out beautifully.

  • bbstx
    9 years ago

    A couple of houses ago, I picked SW "Heavy Cream" for the bedroom, thinking it was just a nice neutral off-white. Nope. It was the sickliest shade of greeny-yellow I've ever seen. I lived with it until we moved 7 years later.

    The point is, sample, sample, sample. Paint something and move it from wall to wall to wall at every time of the day and night. In the store with the store lights it was perfect. In my home with lots of grass reflecting light from outside, it was ghastly.

    I have also used and liked Pratt and Lambert Antique White.

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks everyone. I have a wall full of samples taped up:

    Lemon Meringue
    Concord Buff
    Hinoki
    Buff
    Cottage Cream
    Tea Light
    Vanillan
    Inviting Ivory
    Eggwhite
    Cachet Cream
    Jersey Cream
    Crisp Linen
    Antique White

    I am hoping to move them around the room for a day or two and then start eliminating. And add some of Fluff's SW suggestions as well! Thanks, Fluff. (You are right about testing other brands. I used a Valspar color in our storage area/basement and it was quite a nice paint. I will drop by and look at samples there tomorrow as well).

    I would like to make a decision and get the drama over with but as we all know it is no fun to end up with a color you don't like and end up re-painting.

    Citywoman: That is a beautiful picture. Even if it might not be PC I love it. Not enough color for my dark room but just lovely.

    SW has a 40% off sale this weekend so I would at least buy the base and have them tint later IF I was sure I wanted a SW color.

    I am going to walk away from my wall of samples and make dinner. Will see how they all look this evening!

  • Gracie
    9 years ago

    I have SW Antique White in a north-facing hallway and south-facing stairway. It never goes yellow from the light on the north side as it does in the stairway. It was one of the few creams that didn't have any pink or peach undertones.

    Fluff mentioned Downy, and that's the lightest yellow of the Warm Whites in the Whites and Lights brochure. I'd recommend picking up that brochure.

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Thanks, May. Antique White is looking a bit green/gray to me??? But it is so pretty in Linelle's picture. I am not giving up on it yet and it is nice to hear from someone who has it in a north facing space. Will get the Whites and Lights brochure. Thanks:)

  • anele_gw
    9 years ago

    I have Hinoki in my hallway. It is definitely a yellow in certain lighting! It's pretty, though. It does not have green undertones, which is a plus. (Except now that DH changed the lightbulbs. UGH. I can't tell you how much I dislike modern light options.)

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Hi Anele

    A couple of samples are out of the running because they look too blah to me. But Hinoki is still in the running. Glad to hear a positive review:)

    I agree about the lightbulbs. I used to go to the store and buy lightbulbs. Now there are so many choices. And some are so expensive. I have a stash of incandescent bulbs but they won't last forever. I am putting CFL bulbs in some inconspicuous places (i.e. the storage room!) but when it comes to living areas I have yet to discover "the bulb."

  • Bunny
    9 years ago

    justretired, I don't see any green or gray in AW. At its most drab (dark corner) it might come across as a little tan.

    The light through your windows can be a HUGE influence. I have Cloud White on my kitchen cabinets and right now my pantry has a green tinge thanks to the light bouncing off a tree in my backyard.

    I am particularly anti pink or peach undertones. Anything but that. As may_flowers already mentioned, those undertones are absent from AW.

  • Gracie
    9 years ago

    That's the problem with light colors--they do reflect what's around them. Someone else said AW looked a little green. I never knew paint could reflect the color of leaves, but that's what I've read.

    Every cream I tested was yellow, peachy/fleshy or muddy putty on my north-facing walls. AW wasn't perfect because I wanted a little more color, but I was tired of sampling.

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    I am beginning to think my quest for the perfect cream might be doomed. I am actually not married to a cream, just wanted a change from the gold of Chestertown Buff. If anyone has suggestions about other colors that have worked in their north facing room I am open. I have no windows in the room, only sliders opening to a three season porch so very little light in the room.

  • anele_gw
    9 years ago

    Just, I feel your pain. My LR is north-facing and color-scheme-wise I want a cream, too, but I don't know if it will work.

    RE: incandescents-- the guy at the lamp store told me that appliance bulbs (incandescents) will likely be available for a long time!

    RE: " I just want a darker (not "dirty") creamy white if that makes sense."

    I know exactly what you mean, and that is what I want, too. But I think cream comes from yellow, right? And then if you go away from the yellow, then what? There would be undertones from whatever other color it comes from . . .green, red (pink), orange, brown, etc.

    I don't know. It is a color problem that has had me stumped for a long time. I keep thinking of maybe something with some orange.

  • Gracie
    9 years ago

    The SW Lights and Brights brochure is helpful. There's 50 colors and they divide them into cool whites and warm whites. You can clearly see the undertones--blue, green, yellow, gold, tan, etc. How they look on our walls is a different story.

  • anele_gw
    9 years ago

    May_flowers, I have poured over that brochure. As you said, how they look on our walls is a different story. Heck, even if we hold the sample horizontally vs. vertically makes such a difference. There must be a better way than spending so much $$ on paint samples!

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    9 years ago

    Many creams and whites belong to the yellow, green-yellow and green hue families.

    I've said a million times that trying to read formulas is a complete waste of time - and trust me it absolutely is - however. . . . it is the black in the mix that will 'downshift' a color from yellow hue family to leaning more toward the green-yellow and green hue families.

    It is not unusual for people to buy numerous samples of whites and yellows because they look 'right'. However, once tested in the space, in inherent light, the color's hue family lineage is revealed -- it suddenly becomes clear why a white or a yellow has a color notation that indicates it belongs to the green-yellow hue family, etc.

    Inherent light is also why some people can clearly see those family ties that lean over towards green and others do not.

    If you know the hue family, you know what to expect. You can weigh the odds of which way *over* toward a hue family a color is going to lean - or if it's going to lean *over* one way or another at all. Overtone, top tone and hue bias are good terms to know.

    Can't tell you how many times I've told people that the hue family was green-yellow or green and they don't believe me. Instead, they hold on to the 'yellow undertone' business that has absolutely nothing to do with the way color and light works.

    It's safe to say that the majority of 'regular' brand whites belong to the green-yellow and green hue families because regular brands depend on black colorant. They depend on black colorant - a lot - because it's cheaper and because it aids with opacity. Any boost to opacity helps the lesser grades of paint perform better.

    Finding color notations is not easy. I know that. With that said, absolutely, positively do not rely on the encyclocoloropedia website for anything. The numbers are not correct. Garbage in = garbage out applies. It is apparent to me that the data they're starting with is flawed which means all those numbers it spits out for each color are also flawed.

    I recommend Ellen Kennon's Classic Cream. No black in the formula. She has another creamy-ish color that's "deeper" but I can never remember the name of it - give her a call and I'm sure she would help.

    If you have to use a specific 'regular' brand, let me know what it is and I'll see what I can find.

    This post was edited by funcolors on Wed, Sep 17, 14 at 23:50

  • anele_gw
    9 years ago

    Fun, so interesting as always.

    I would love to hear about suggestions for Sherwin-Williams. I'd love a deep cream!

    I am unclear about the role black plays. What would we see without it in the formula? Would it stay "true"?

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    9 years ago

    Sure, you could say "true". They use black to knock the chroma back, dull it down, mute it, desaturate - all those kinda words could apply.

    If you don't use black to dull the yellowness down, you have better odds of avoiding a character of greeness showing up in the color.

    No guarantees. Just better odds that a color won't end up with any green characteristic.

    If you don't use black, then you have to find another mixing method to dull, mute, knock-back a color. And that would be using complementary colors or mixing in chords - no black, no gray. No black, no gray is one of the core principles of mixing color full spectrum.

    If you happen upon a "cream" color with no black in the formula, and it's not from the yellow, green-yellow or green hue family and it STILL goes greenish, then that just means that there is some other combination of colorants in the mix producing that edge of green. And the inherent quality of light in the space also has an edge of green so the greeness "lights up" and you see it.

    Mixing black and yellow is not the only way greeness happens. Which is why you cannot color by just the numbers alone. How it looks will always count for more.

    SW doesn't have a lot to work with in the whites department - let me poke around and see what I can find... BRB.

  • anele_gw
    9 years ago

    I love learning from you, Fun!

    I see about mixing without black/gray. And now I am beginning to understand the very basics of what "full spectrum" means. Just starting to grasp!

    I have been hesitating about using a cream/ivory because of what else I'll "see" in the color. It makes me want to just pick a more intentional color, if that makes any sense at all.

    If SW is too limited, are there other brands that are "regular" (but not BM, since it never goes on sale!) that offer better options?

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    9 years ago

    And now I am beginning to understand the very basics of what "full spectrum" means. Just starting to grasp!

    Color is like one big puzzle. The more pieces you collect and put together, the easier it is to see the whole, bigger picture.

    It makes me want to just pick a more intentional color, if that makes any sense at all.

    Perfect sense. The whites and yellows that most of us are drawn to for our homes are knocked back in value, low in chroma, have mere whispers of hue.

    Nuance is a good word to understand. It's value + chroma. The trick is to partner the perfect pitch of nuance with the inherent quality of light you have to work with. So, a dim north facing room, for example, would do better with colors that are cleaner, less nuanced and have some chromatic oooomph to bust thru the dimness. Or, as you put it, colors that are more "intentional".

    Here are a few SW "creams". Yellow hue family. Hue/value/chroma is below each.

    The list is ordered lowest to highest chroma (the last number).

    The higher the chroma number the more colorful ooomph it has so it's less likely to lean green.

    7105 PAPERWHITE
    3.57Y / 9.50 / 1.16

    7571 CASA BLANCA
    2.60Y / 9.00 / 1.28

    7106 HONIED WHITE
    3.38Y / 9.50 / 1.29

    7119 VENETIAN LACE
    3.43Y / 9.50 / 1.29

    6133 MUSLIN
    4.29Y / 9.00 / 1.52

    2829 CLASSICAL WHITE
    4.07Y / 9.10 / 1.53

    7120 DOLLOP OF CREAM
    3.43Y / 9.40 / 1.59

    7537 IRISH CREAM
    3.38Y / 8.50 / 1.94

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Wow Funcolors. You are so knowledgable about color. I have read your threads twice and still need to go back and read again.

    One question (from aneles response), can you explain intentional color? I feel like if I could understand that it might help me in my quest not just for the room in question but in the future.

    Also, if I look for colors with a higher chroma will that help me in a dark (northern exposure) room? Also, what number denotes "less nuance"?

    Sorry to be so dim. I am just beginning to learn, but I am willing:)

  • jterrilynn
    9 years ago

    Today I went to the Sherwin Williams 40% off sale. I have three rooms painted with SW antique white which I love and I have Dover white on a lot of trim. I have been in search of an off white that wasnâÂÂt as yellowed as my antique white (which I love) or as light as my warm Dover white. I finally gave up and did a sample board with a mix of 65% or so Dover and the rest Antique white. I now have the perfect color for my remodeled master bath.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    9 years ago

    No, not dim at all.

    If the tactical side of color were easy, then everybody would get it right off the bat.

    I think Aneles was talking about reaching for a stronger color. And she chose to use the word intentional to describe it.

    And, yes, whether you want to look at it as "intentional", stronger or higher in chroma, it is those kinds of colors that partner well with a northern exposure.

    Less nuance would be denoted by a higher value number like 8,9,10, etc and/or a higher chroma number like 1, 2, 3 and up. I said and/or because nuance is what it's called when you consider value and chroma together at the same time.

    The color notations listed above came directly from SW. I come up with slightly different notations when doing conversions here at The Land of Color's *color lab*. They are very close to SW, but a little different.

    That's okay because I understand how SW arrived at their notations and I know their process was consistent for all the colors in all their collections.

    So, it's not a problem comparing SW color notations to each other. The only time that difference I'm talking about would be a problem is if one were to try to use the SW color notations in comparison to another brand's color notations.

    This image illustrates value and chroma scales. You can see how nuance changes by following the lines of color swatches horizontally, vertically or diagonally. All three ways because nuance is value + chroma.

    Hope that helps.

  • kitschykitch
    9 years ago

    Funcolors,

    Thank you. That is so interesting. I have never heard it explained so clearly before.

    And to the OP: make sure when you get closer you try very very large samples. I have made that mistake!

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    Yes, thank you funcolors. I am still processing all of the information you shared. Also thinking that I may be limiting myself to creamy colors because I (mistakenly, I believe) was under the impression they would liven up my space.

    I know that I need light to bounce off of light colors to lighten the space, but my thought process was to enliven if that makes sense. So, with the information shared by all of the generous people here I will take a step back and open my mind to "intentional:)" colors.

    Updates to come! Thanks everyone.

  • justretired
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    An update for those of you who so kindly offered advice, education and pictures. We finally decided on a color and completed the painting project in our dark, northern exposure family room. Ended up using SW Vellum (#1116). It is an older SW color that fit the bill.

    As I was scrolling back through the replies to my initial question I was struck by how much Vellum looks like the Antique White in Linelle's bathroom (9/15 at 1:33). A sample of AW in my space looked nothing like her pretty color, definitely important to purchase samples and test.

    Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply. Glad to have this finished. Currently working on painting all of the doorway trim and new doors. Slow going---carpal tunnel acting up but I am determined, even if my fingers are numb LOL.

    Here is a link that might be useful: SW Vellum

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    9 years ago

    Wow. Yeah, they really are close.

    1116 Vellum
    2.06Y / 8.77 / 1.48

    6119 Antique White
    2.70Y / 8.74 / 1.63

  • Bunny
    9 years ago

    justretired, so glad you found the color that works for you. I do believe that it can be found, but you have to be willing to test test test. :)

  • Elaine Golding
    2 months ago

    Math my paint color.com

  • Elaine Golding
    2 months ago

    Try SW Ivoire. It’s a lovely color

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