I make a modest living; in my younger years, I could never consider hiring an ID because there were too many other financial obligations. Now, I could probably afford to hire one on a small scale, but have no desire to do so.

I agree that the best information I've received comes from this forum and reading reviews and gathering pics and ideas of what might work for my house. I greatly appreciate the professional insight and/or good eye that all of you provide here.

And I definitely agree with all that Pal has said. I don't think I would trust paying anyone that doesn't have a designer certification. Not that it's a guarantee, but...

That's where my friend's story originates -- with an unlicensed "decorator" who was an acquaintance looking to get into a new profession (you know, because decorating is easy - eye roll). That acquaintance offered her services for free as "practice" - a chance to test out her decorating skills on my friend's house. Later, the friend found out that the "decorator" was actually keeping the 10-20% discount her suppliers had given ID discount - after steering her towards those specific suppliers.

It's fine if she was planning to keep that money, but she should have been honest about doing so rather than suggesting that she was doing this for "free."

This "decorator" acquaintance now has one of the most advertised businesses in our area. :-(

Edit: I've never really had a "bad designer" but did have one who charged me for 15 min of time if she picked up the phone & had a 5 minute conversation with anyone about anything related to my project. It really turned me off to the hourly fee structure.

This post was edited by romy718 on Thu, Aug 14, 14 at 17:44

I keep trying to delete this duplicate post and it keeps showing up. Not sure why. Or maybe not enough coffee yet.

This post was edited by beekeeperswife on Thu, Aug 14, 14 at 9:24

ID's tend to make a room/space look too contrived, rather than a 'created ' space. Maybe it's because a single space can be completed in a relatively short time if walls, pipes, etc. aren't a problem, and something 'gets lost' in the process. Like celebs who get too much plastic surgery, if a room gets too 'done' too quickly or looks to be perfection, it isn't a room/space which can realistically be lived in. A personalized space may take more time than an ID is willing to put into it.

Sjhockeyfan, I'm the same way. I have a thread going now asking for help accessorizing. I wish I could find someone to hire to do it!

Sjhockeyfan, from my personal experience in my own home, it's taken at least 5 years to achieve the comfortable, personalized space I can call 'mine', but I've done it myself so time constraints aren't an issue. For an ID using up such a long period of time on one client would surely not pay off, unless he /she has been given full rein with re:to money. Like many professions where you may be working with a handful of clients, their comes a time when he/she feels the need to move on, as it could become a waste of time, or simply become frustrated with the homeowner.

Ok, not about a bad designer -- just a bad story. Involving a designer. Years ago, 25-26, I hired an up-and-coming designer team of two men from my smaller hometown that were just starting to make a name for themselves in the bigger nearby city. They did a great job and went on to become very successful.

Anyway, back to the story. The guys would usually stop by my house on their way home from their new shop in the city late in the afternoon usually about the same time I got home from work. One day, I had walked into the house and I guess I must have unconsciously started to undress as in I had unzipped my skirt without realizing it when I heard them at the door. I'm slim hipped but the skirt stayed put as I answered the door, but as I led them into the house suddenly my skirt fell and I am standing there in my pantyhose, with my skirt around my ankles and my face beet red! The guys were graceful and it ended up being an inside joke, but WOW what an embarrassing moment!

No bad designer stories here, have a great one with a great "partnership with the client" ethic, but I am curious about one thing--- why would you buy stuff you don't like? If you have a bolt or two of fabric you hate, why did you buy it in the first place, when ID showed it to you? I have been shown stuff I didn't like and said so, and nobody's feelings were hurt and no fire rained down from the heavens. I am not intimidated by our ID, who has worked for me as well as three close family members over the course of two decades, and I don't hesitate to ask questions or veto suggestions. It seems that is the client's fault, to acquiesce to something you don't like, then blame the designer that you don't like it.

This post was edited by kswl on Thu, Aug 14, 14 at 15:03

Louislinus, I would love to find someone like your neighbor! I feel like I have lots of lovely stuff but don't know what the heck to do with it!

Jelly, so bring on pictures! Maybe we can be of some help to you. At least it could give you food for thought, which is a start.

kwsl, here is my .02 on your question of why people buy things they don't like. Some people that hire designers don't know what they like. So when the designer presents them with something saying it is all that, they take their word for it because the designer is the pro and that is why they hired them. Not saying this is always the case.

One of my best friends is design challenged. She has had three homes decorated by different IDs. She willingly admits that she doesn't know what she likes or wants. Each home has basically looked the same - various shades of taupe and tan, looking like a Pottery Barn/Restoration Hardware catalog. Now, she isn't a fan of bold color - that she does know. So you would think what they did for her was fine, as it looked collected and cohesive. But she never liked it and complained on the lack of color! So, I feel for the IDs that worked with her, as she is a tough case.

In this last home she finally found an ID that she loves. He dares her to be a little different but not too different. She has found peace!!

A lot of these stories really illustrate how communication is key. The problem is that most people don't know the specific questions to ask regarding fee structure and just how the business works. A comprehensive Q&A section would be invaluable.

Jellyben - The best part is that she only charged me $10/hour! She really likes doing it and lives right across the street and I think she thought I'd be an interesting challenge. lol

One of the problems is that about $10 an hour is what a lot people seem to think a job like picking out and arranging accessories is worth. That's below poverty level here.

Patty_cakes, I will be asking for lots of help here with my new house! I already got some good advice regarding window treatments.

Palimpset, around here, that job goes for between $75 and $150 an hour.

I am not saying what people who pay for it actually pay. I am saying that a lot of people, even if they utilize interior designers for some things, don't put much value on the service. This last step is something a lot of clients will bail on even if the job has stayed on budget. (and then wonder why it looks a little stiff and unfinished).

Or they say Okay, whatever you can accomplish in a couple hours, and then complain that it looks like one-stop shopping....but it Is if you do it all in a couple hours.

Also keep in mind that the designer who charges $75 an hour is Not making $150K and one who charges $150 an hour is not making $300K a year.

The average interior designer salary is a bit under $45,000 a year.

This post was edited by palimpsest on Thu, Aug 14, 14 at 21:22

Hence the trying to make out on markups and the smoke and mirrors games, clients not valuing the time enough to pay full value for it by itself.

Of course, some designers will also be at least a little crooked or incompetent. And the lack of professional certification will be a big part of it, otherwise if you don't already know somebody is up to your requirements beforehand then you are gambling that they will happen to work out. Even medical doctors, with all their schooling and certifications can turn out to be terrible - when you bring in a supposed design expert that doesn't have top notch paper credentials that initial interview better be a two way street. If somebody has a trademark look that they are trying to sustain - and you did not hire them specifically to provide that same effect for you - then they are going to be using your project as another brick in their own wall.

My neighbor is a SAHM who just does this on the side because she likes it. She isn't trying to make a living at it.

I am not criticizing you or your neighbor. She should be allowed to charge whatever she feels like charging, or do it for nothing if that's what she wants to do. My point is that she obviously Couldn't make a living charging prices like that even if she had enough clientele to keep her busy 40 hours a week, which she never would. She might as well clean houses--not that there's anything the matter with cleaning houses. I would do it if it paid more.

My point is more that people do Not, for the most part put much value on the services of an interior designer. Many people, of course, see no value in it at all because they can furnish their own houses well enough by themselves to suit their needs. But even people who Do want to utilize the services of an interior designer don't place a high value on certain aspects of the service, and want to really be able to almost dissect the process into it's component parts and nickel and dime it to death.

Pal, it's not necessarily the value people place on the service, but the vast choices people have for the service. As you noted earlier, it's nothing for someone to call themselves a "designer," and I'd hedge that most homeowners do not ask for or even pay attention to an ID's credentials (and don't notice when a decorator doesn't have them).

It's the same reason why English faculty at universities make so much less than Accounting or Engineering faculty. Supply and demand. Between decor blogs, HGTV's flipping shows, Pinterest, Home Depot's "that's the power of" commercials, etc., the number of people who coin themselves designers has dramatically increased in the past decade.

This is why the average ID salary is what it is. It's not the customers' fault the industry is so saturated. Heck, even Pottery Barn advertises its "design services" for free. What value should the customers be placing on IDs?

There are many parallels between an English professor and an ID. Each knows their craft very, very well. But, on a subjective level, so does everyone else.

In my limited experience trying to hire an ID, it's not that I felt that their time was worth little. I saw great value in the right relationship and as I had a fairly healthy budget for my furnishings, I saw even greater value in working with someone who could help me avoid costly mistakes.

My issue was the lack of transparency. I spoke with a handful of designers, and was very upfront about what my budget was, and the limits to which I was willing to exceed my stated budget. But when I asked for an estimate of what their likely fees would be, I never got a straight answer. I understand that for a service like this they couldn't possibly know the fees with certainty, but I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for an estimate of what the range could be. And when the answer is evasive, it does not inspire confidence. Being willing to pay a generous fee does not equate to being an open checkbook, and that's the path I felt I was being led down.

The store designer I ultimately worked with was actually a credentialed ID and not a salesperson posing as an ID. But at least it was clear from the outset that although he was helping me with design, he was a salesman and his financial objective was to sell me furniture, and lots of it. With that upfront, it was easier to distill his advice.

Peony, sure, the related industries themselves have created a situation where what the market will bear may be anything from $0/hr to $100+/hr.

The problem is when the consumer wants $100+/hr service for the $0/hr price point. That's like expecting perfectly placed breast implants from the community free health clinic.

Of course, there are also the designer/providers who are providing close to $0/hr service for $100/hr fees.

I think to have the ID I wanted would be prohibitively expensive --- unless I had extremely specific questions and needed an expert solution. (But then I could probably figure it out by myself). What I'm trying to say is that in my price range, basically IDs need to rely on cookie-cutter suggestions ("design principles") to make it worth their time, unless it's a hobby.
I find this similar to college admission counselors or travel agents. When I plan a vacation, I put in way more time than any TA could, so my vacation is obviously way more customized to my needs than a TAs who charges a couple of hundred dollars. Same with a college admission counselor. My DD provided her friend with the same advice (perhaps better because she knew her) than the 300.00/hour consultant.

I think there is a difference between an ID and a travel agent. If you have the time and inclination, you can spend hours researching a vacation destination and probably get an itinerary more customized to your needs than a TA could give you.

However, at least for me, with design, I can research forever and still not be as confident on matters like scale, coordination of fabrics, etc. For example, I have a patterned rug in my bedroom and was looking for a chair. My inclination would have been to pick out a solid color chair pulling out a color from the rug. Safe-- and it would have been fine. But the ID showed me a variety of fabric choices that I never would have known to look at-- most of which turned out to be better than the choices I made myself. If you order a lot of custom furniture, it's not like you can just return it if it is the wrong size or otherwise looks lousy in your room.

Travel agent training is mostly training in how to make reservations. Most travel agents have not traveled themselves to many of the places their clients want to go; heck, the TA our company uses has never left the East Coast. With the wealth of information available on the internet, anyone has the ability to plan a vacation if they want to. I do think a good ID can bring something to the table that many people cannot do themselves. But that assumes you can find a good designer that also works well with you-- which, from many of the comments here, seems difficult.

Yes, my comparison wasn't quite accurate. However, I wasn't so much commenting on the difference in training/expertise but rather that if you want something completely customized, it is expensive because the service provider will have to spend considerable time on it, for which s/he needs to be compensated. (Same with TA who provide a customized travel schedule, not just booking a flight or hotel.)
Actually, maybe similar to event or wedding planner. Brides want unique but many/most weddings are cookie-cutter.

This post was edited by nosoccermom on Fri, Aug 15, 14 at 11:01

This is kind of veering way off topic but in some ways in may be related to some negative experiences regarding the quality of services received. These are extreme but real life examples.

Many interior design programs are within a technical-school type setting (problem and task focused) vs an academic university setting. The better students when I was there all came from other backgrounds of education.

In my relatively small class (under 20) there was one woman who was a cage dancer, and one who was a stripper/dancer and essentially an escort with an extremely limited clientele.

The cage dancer, whose name wasn't even spelled correctly (you couldn't get the pronunciation correct if you read it grammatically or phonetically) was actually a whiz on Autocad and could hand draft efficiently. But she had probably never seen a decent piece of furniture in her life, and yawned her way through Period Room museum visits and sneaked out of antique store visits.

The stripper/escort actually had a bit of a better background and education --and actually had good technical skills, but her taste was pure Vegas.

There was another student who had never heard of Frank Lloyd Wright and after she did, wasn't overly impressed.

So to some extent it may be difficult to find an interior designer who is well rounded, well versed in antiques and architectural history (even if you don't work in those styles you should understand history) *and* run a good business. Unfortunately I think a lot of designers have some decent skills about making a room pretty within a very limited set of their own parameters and that's about it.

The elite interior designers seem to have backgrounds in other professions and often come to the profession with lots of money and connections and people just like them are their first clients.

I really think my Bad Experience Decorator used the good design principles excuse to disguise the fact that she wasn't talented enough to pull off a look different than her own taste.

I run into it with "landscape designers" and consultants ... They aren't good at interviewing the client to find out what is really important to the client (like the piano), and aren't confident enough to know which guidelines can be tossed out the window ... so they stay inside their box and pull other people into it.

They never internalized things like scale and proportion, so they have their checklist to follow.

Bee, don't you wonder what some of these stories would sound like from the designers' points of view ? :-)

My ID would probably say that I wanted to be too involved ... but if I hadn't, several things would not have been done right. So, after you screw up the first time, you can bet that I'll be micromanaging to be sure I get what I thought I ordered and paid for.

Budget and paying for her services was never an issue in my case ... she took advantage of that. Even raised her hourly rate 3 weeks after we started working together and made even more money on the projects. I kind of felt backed into a corner and stupidly I agreed (see comments about not working with an acquaintance!).

I also only found out about her not honoring the cost+20% markup because I became friendly with one of the managers at the Design Center. When he heard of my ID issues, he shared what the discounts were. After getting to know me a bit and seeing some of the things I had done on my own, he told me I should get my resale license, do it on my own and save some money.

I've never had a good experience but I keep hoping to find the right person.

This post was edited by rrs626 on Tue, Sep 2, 14 at 8:49

Never, with multiple designers, anything but bad? hmm.

Reminds me of the man who married four times and all four of his wives were barren. None of them could get pregnant. What a terrible coincidence.

Chispa, that's a low discount plus rate. Ours charges his cost plus 35%, regardless of the cost. For example, when I picked out something from Circa lighting a few years ago he said it would cost more to go through him than I could get it at retail.....I would pay his cost plus 35% as always, even though I could buy it myself in a store for less. The fact that I could buy it somewhere else less expensively had no bearing on the amount of work or his fee structure. But he was very forthcoming about this. I ended up paying over retail on several things he shopped for on our most recent project. Nobody likes paying more, me least of all, but I can't say I didn't know about it before the bills came.

Palimpsest, are you saying I'm the problem? Perhaps you're right. There are many wonderful designers out there, but I've just not found one where I live. Also, I'm not sure of the accreditation of those I used - so in my case, I am at fault.

Palimpsest, I think you hit the nail on the proverbial head when you tied elite (successful) designers with moneyed clientele. I have never hired an Interior Designer simply because I did not think I could ever afford someone who was top notch. I do not need to hire someone to do as lousy of a job as I can. Many of us feel the only thing we can do is to try to educate ourselves. This is why the Garden Web Decorating forum is so much fun. We learn from professionals like you, who are willing to teach us things we would never otherwise be exposed to.

Just wanted to say thanks to everybody for all your stories. I think the bottom line is lack of communication from both sides.

People hire me because they like what they see on my website or because a friend referred them to me. I am always very clear with them about my background and I educate them on the difference between a Designer and a Decorator. I just feel that anyone who tries to deceive their clients will be found out and it will somehow come back to bite them in the end. Transparency is key.

And many posts earlier Pal asked if I could do a lighting plan from scratch. I don't want to say "yes" but I can read them and can logically work through them with someone who does them. I also know when to hire a professional to do such things. I do know my limitations and would never try to fool someone otherwise. I do however, know how to pick out killer lighting fixtures. :)

rr,

Well, "At fault" is a bit strong, and my post was snarky...but if none of them were able to do anything you liked, you must have contributed to the problem.

One of the complaints that I often seem to hear (besides about the money involved) is that people have felt "talked into" certain things or that the client ended up with a design they didn't like overall or individual things they didn't like, or a room they could have done themselves or even better themselves.

I have had clients who've been pretty insistent on having input that I feel has made for an inferior result. If they are happy, that's fine. But I've had a client or two who have not been happy with the way individual things have turned out, and the individual things they don't like were a result of their input (or interference, as it may be).

Also, if a client doesn't like a choice, they should not approve it, and sometimes they do.

If a client feels "overwhelmed" by all the choices they have to make and blame the mistake on that, think of it this way.

I've looked at maybe 500 or 1000 lamps for some clients. I may present them with two or three options. You as the client should not want to see all 500 that work. Let the designer winnow them out. If you don't like one the designer picked ask for another one.

I think my mother was a good client: She wanted her house to look good, but she wasn't interested in the design PROCESS. Not at all. She told the decorator or designer what she wanted in general terms, they presented her with ONE scheme. If there was something about it she didn't like, she said "I don't like XYZ", and they presented her with another option.

That's not to say she never flipped through a wallpaper book or swatches, but she mostly let the designer do that and did not interfere. But again, if she didn't like a selection made by the decorator, she told the decorator during the selection process, not after the trigger had been pulled.

I really think that one of the reasons so many people in Gardenweb have trouble with designers is that the GWers are too interested in the process itself. It's like a doctor having to go to a specialist. They may not know what the specialist knows to the degree the specialist does, but they may know enough to interfere somewhat.

Kswl, she saya she charges cost + 20%, but since there is no transparency or paper trail, who knows. She also has an hourly fee and does not itemize or detail those hours, so again, lots of room for manipulation. For months I got monthly invoices for around $1,500 in hourly fees with no details at all. I paid, but became increasingly annoyed at putting myself in that situation. When I said something to the ID about needing more details in the invoices, she would then get all upset saying that I was accusing her of being dishonest ... again, do not do business with an acquaintance!

voila--a very good post. I feel that way about everything--secretaries, tradesmen, "landscapers--who don't know the difference between a hydrangea and crab grass" --and "administrative assistants"--if I can do it better, I don't want them around. Bad way to live--you end up overwhelmed with little stuff that demands being done and taking time. (I was just out pulling weeds....) Hairdressers, too--people wonder why I have been going into NYC for haircuts for decades--because I don't want to look like the hairdressers in my neighborhood!

Chispa, it sounds like she really IS dishonest! You should report her to whatever licensing board that credentialls her......is that possible?

To be fair, just wondering why you didn't include "decorator" in your subject question? I think you would have gotten a lot more bad experience stories had you included it.

The first designer wanted me to get rid of everything in stead of trying to work with some of the things I already had.

Another designer didn't listen and or measure correctly.

The fees were around $200 per hour.

I think listening and attention to detail are to very important qualities needed.

This post was edited by rrs626 on Tue, Sep 2, 14 at 8:45

While I don't know what the cost would be, I would not use anyone who did not have a professional asid. Otherwise, it could be anyone off the street who reads a lot of magazines and watches tv for ideas.

Bee - how do I find your website?

kswl, not much I will do except bring up her name as "who not to use" when talking to people in town. Our paths cross too often in town ... we now have kids in the same school/grade. I will be giving her an honest review on Houzz and let potential customers know what they need to ask and include in a contract if they choose to work with the ID. A post, with her company name here, would guarantee it would show up in any search done by a potential customer.

I wonder if Houzz will actually publish a bad review, since I've never seen a bad one and they are in the business of keeping their content-suppliers happy. Keep us posted on that if you would, as I would like to know if the site can be trusted to provide ALL the feedback they get on the businesses that drive their readership.

beekeeperswife, just wondering if you published your article and might share it with us?

Also, reporting back on my experience with the designer, it has been quite discouraging. While I expected that we might butt heads on the style of some of the selections, I was hoping to get helpful input on the size/scale of pieces. However, when I went to mock up what the designers proposed I realized it doesn't work from a functional standpoint -- not only does their plan ignore the architecture of the room but it also would place obstacles in access paths that need to be kept clear. Oh well -- a learning experience for sure.

Hi Oaktown,

Yes, I did. I cannot post a link to it from here. If you wish to see it, feel free to email me (beekeeperswife at gmail dot com) and I will be happy to send the link to you.

Thanks to all of you for your help.

Hmmm.... strippers = las vegas style??? Now we know where all the love of tassels comes from. It's okay by me, but "Methinks thou dost protest too much."