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stu2900

Talk to me about color...

stu2900
14 years ago

It's a bit too soon, but I'm getting excited and have been playing with paint color strips and looking at them next to my bathroom tile, granite, and cabinet. The color that seems to look the best with all of them is 5 colors down on a 7 color strip. (These are Sherwin Williams paint strips.) The color I'm looking at is called Toasty. The problem is that I don't want to go that dark in the room, but the shade above it seems too pink. I've heard people on this forum talk about getting paint mixed at 50% or 25%. Would this be a time that I might want to consider something like that? Like I said, it's too soon to make a final decision, the countertop and sink aren't in yet, but it usually takes me a while to make a decision on paint color and I thought this would be the place to get some advice.

Comments (23)

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Not a fan of the percentage business. Reason being it can get too complicated. Cutting formulas or intensifying them requires hands on attention from start to finish.

    -You can try the sample sizes but if you do, you risk color accuracy. A quart in the sheen and grade you ultimately want to paint with is the most accurate way to test color. It can get expensive if you take it seriously.

    -Gotta be there when the gallons are mixed and check each bucket or can individually. (ask for a little sample dried out for each)

    -You have to get all the paint mixed at once.

    -Boxing your color is always a smart thing to do, but if you monkey with the formula it is especially important to box.

    -You have to make sure there will be a decent quantity of paint left over for touch-ups.

    -Duplicating the formula down the road will be iffy.

    There are people who mix $1 oops gallons and think it's a grand thing to do. It's suits their expectations and tolerances. So using the Color To Go jugs to play with the formulas will get them *close enough* and that will simply be good enough for them.

    Not everyone has that same relaxed level of tolerance and expectations when it comes to coating their environment with color.

    Need to determine how picky and sensitive you're going to be to the end result. Can you monkey with the formulas and know you'll be happy with *whatever* you end with -- it'll be close enough and good enough? Or, are you needing more precision and want to do whatever you can to ensure there are no surprises because you know what you want and good enough ain't gonna cut it for you.

    Experimenting with color can get expensive very quickly. Either set a budget to tinker to the color you see in your head, or decide you're going to hunt it down in another brand, another color collection.

  • stu2900
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks fun colors! That's exactly what I wanted to know. Way too complicated and I stress out over color choices as it is, so I will work with the paint strips and sample quarts. I do want to ask what you mean by "boxing your color". Do you mean that you should make sure you have enough gallons of paint mixed at the same time?

  • debbimc
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What sheen are you going to use?

  • stu2900
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm looking at Sherwin Williams low luster Cashmere Paint. If not that it will be eggshell.

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can box several different ways, depends on how many gallons are involved. Most paint jobs require two gallons of paint. In which case, you take an empty container and pour in half of one gallon. Then add in one half from the other gallon. Mix the new gallon you just made and then use that new combined mixture to refill the two gallon containers and mix well again.

    You can also use a five gallon to dump your single gallons into and mix well. Then work from the five gallon with a screen. Save the gallon cans to store whatever is leftover.

    Never start a new gallon mid wall, plan to paint corner to corner.

    Another way, non-boxing method which I prefer, is to simply check each gallon for color accuracy via a dried sample and also plan well where to stop and start. Again, never start a new gallon in the middle of a wall -- plan to work from corner to corner and consider how the light hits each wall.

    If you stress about color, investing in just one sample with the formula cut might be worth a try, see how it goes. Just decide before hand on a budget, a limit.

    Thing is you can easily get sucked into the process and before you know it you've racked up a couple hundred bucks in samples. Happens with *normal* color searches too. Everyone thinks that next sample is going to be the one that's going to work.

    Sampling is the last stage, the last step. The point of sampling is to confirm all the preliminary color work. Samples aren't intended to be the means to find the right color.

    If one has racked up an arsenal of paint chips and hundreds of dollars in color samples, there's something wrong with the process. Nothing wrong with the person - even if they're uber sensitive to the slightest nuance of color. It's not the person. It's the process. The process is allowing color to control the person or the project and that's not the way it has to be.

    Acknowledging that light is boss and understanding that color can not be made to behave but it can be managed is the first step to developing an efficient process to choose paint colors.

  • randita
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    That paint strip is a little pink/peachy, IMO. I tried Sand Dollar which is one strip over and it was more peachy than I wanted, esp. during the daytime. My DH says it looks like refried beans - he's right. I'm going to paint over it, eventually.

    If you want a beige that is not too pink, not too gold, or not too green, look at SW strip 16. Latte is a gorgeous beige. It's the 4th color down, but even the next color, Hopsack is really nice.

  • redbazel
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm another who is not a fan of specialized mixing. Same reasons as Funcolors, especially the possibility of error on the part of the mixer.......then I feel like I need to buy the paint anyway. Plus, there are so many shades, so many brands with varied tints available, that it would be pretty self-important of me to think that I could do better.
    A lot of times too, colors don't really look just the same on your walls as they do on the strip, so maybe that color that you think will be too dark will really be nice on 4 walls.
    Love the test quarts, esp. the ones for $5 from Sherwin Wms. They don't have the full effect of real paint, but for color choosing purposes, they are great.

    Red

  • stu2900
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The room has no natural light. Should I stay with lighter colors, or would the medium tones look ok?

  • randita
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Natural light is what makes the Sand Dollar look peachy/pink. In artificial lighting, it just looks like a nice neutral beige. I don't mind it at night with incandescent or flourescent lighting, but in the day in a south or west facing room with windows, which I have - refried beans.

    In a north facing room or a room with no windows, the Sand Dollar strip might be the perfect shade to warm things up.

    Since anyone using your bathroom would have lights on, then I think you could go down as far as the 4th color on the strip and be okay. Just depends on how dramatic you want to go.

    Take Red's advice and get a $5 sample of the color you are considering at SW-just ask for a sample jar-it's about 2 pints, I think and it's actually not real paint. Paint some foamboard (two coats) and put it in the room for a few days, then see what you think. I have saved myself a lot of trouble (and money) by trying out samples before splurging on a whole gallon. I should have done this before painting the Sand Dollar and I know I would have gone with Kilim Beige instead.

    You know, I could really see something like Whole Wheat, Blonde or Tobacco Road with your elements, but they might clash with your tile and grout.

  • brutuses
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I find some percentage mixes come out fine, but othera change the base color so much it doesn't even look like the original color.

    Look for paints with a high LRV or light reflective value. SW's puts that information on the back of their strips. I'm not sure if it's on all of them however.

  • Bunny
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Randita, not real paint? I've gotten several of the SW Colors to Go quarts and I thought it was paint. Maybe not finish quality, but still paint. What is it?

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Color To Go jugs are just the basic ingredients. They lack performance properties that give paint durability and longevitiy -- they don't have the same stuff as regular paint which why they are only $5.

    Some SW stores only offer the Color To Go jugs in one or two sheens. That can present another issue as well. Sheen affects the appearance of color. Less sheen means lighter appearance, more sheen means darker -- some colors shift more with sheen than others.

    Like I said before, don't count on a sample jug, jar or pot from any brand to give you a 100% accurate preview of your color choices. Sometimes you really can't tell the difference between the jug and the gallon, sometimes ya can.

    Using samples is a smart thing to do. Just know exactly what to expect and clearly understand that by the very nature of what they are (or are not), they may be limited as to how much of a preview they can actually provide.

    Quarts in the grade and sheen you ultimately intend to paint with is the most accurate color preview you can buy. Some times the samples will be fine, plenty good enough. Other times you should be buyin' the quart. For example, I would never in a million years depend on sample jugs, jars, pots to finalize exterior color choices. Way too iffy and risky, it'd be insane.

  • Bunny
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, Funcolors, very interesting. Made my heart drop a bit, as I've made my choices based on sample pots. :) My SW store uses only satin in its CtoGo pots. For that matter, all the little BM pots are also a little sheeny. Any color that passes the sample board Definite Possibility test also gets sampled directly on my wall. It's really obvious which has the sheen (BM and SW) and which doesn't (Kelly-Moore, which will mix up a quart in any finish you want). So I have to figure out the right angle at which to view my wall squares to eliminate the sheen factor. Not always easy. To me, the flat paint looks darker, but, at this point, I would definitely say I have Paint Comparison Fatigue Syndrome.

  • stu2900
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    SW strip 16 has 7 color choices with LRV that range from 72 to 10. That is lightest to darkest. The colors I'm looking at are LRV 47 and 39. But doesn't it stand to reason that lighter colors are going to have a higher LRV? I'm looking for a rich color, but I don't want it to look like I'm walking into a tomb. What LRV area should I be looking for?

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What LRV area should I be looking for?
    Fifty is the average guideline for residential interiors. It is just that, a guideline. LRV is a helper number, a clue, it's not a formula or a rule.

    But doesn't it stand to reason that lighter colors are going to have a higher LRV?
    It is a fact that lighter colors measure upwards towards 100 and darker colors dip down into single digits.

    I'm looking for a rich color, but I don't want it to look like I'm walking into a tomb.
    This is where it gets a snidge more complicated. Descriptive aspects of color like richness, depth, complexity do not come from the part of color that is LRV. LRV is a measurement of how much energy (light) a color absorbs and how much energy (light) it reflects.

    The dimension of color that captures what we perceive as rich or complex is a visual evaluation, not a measurable *part* like LRV. That dimension of color is known by many terms: value, chroma, saturation, tints-tones-shades, grayscale, intensity. How has the color been constructed so that it appears as muted, dulled and how far has it been moved away from its root hue to a true neutral gray -- that's the color wheel thing you've seen with a grayscale bar-type portion running thru the middle of a slice of a basic color wheel.

    It's the two *parts* together, literal lightness/darkness which is LRV and evaluated lightness/darkness which is intensity that combine to give a color a sense of nuance.

    Coloring 3D environments and not fully understanding nuance (some concept of nuance not necessarily mine) is a lot like constantly, relentlessly hiking up hill with no downhill breaks -- ever.

    Partnering nuance with inherent light to meet expectations and tolerances is key to 3D color design .... And that's what I interpret you are seeking when I read this thought:

    I'm looking for a rich color, but I don't want it to look like I'm walking into a tomb.

    What you can *do* with this information is still keep a keen eye on LRV. Use LRV as a clue to help you target paint colors, but also examine and evaluate the colors with an awareness of complexity, not just light or dark. You are looking for the right balance that resonates with you, your space, and the quality of daylight and artifical light you have to work with.

    My guess is that you are wanting to find just the right color with just the right tick of nuance but you really didn't know what you were looking for, or at, in the paint chips and samples thus far. That notion takes this conversation full circle back to your original inquiry which was about cutting formulas by percentages.

    Intuitively I think you knew that something needed to be done to the colors you have been considering -- they were close, but that balance, tick of nuance hasn't been there so far. If what I've said makes any sense to you so far, it's possible that you can now go see if you can just find the color you want as I'm hoping it's now a little easier to understand what it is you are looking for. Maybe I should say what I think you're looking for.

  • stu2900
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    funcolors--you've really been a lot of help! While I still don't completely understand the science of color, I got enough of what you said to realize I was trying to make the room fit the colors I thought I should use rather than let the color fit the room. So I went out this afternoon and picked different colors. I've narrowed it down to SW Bagle with an LRV of 50 and Totally Tan with an LRV of 43. If I understand what you're saying, either of these should be pretty good for an interior room, right? Or would the Tatally Tan be too dark? I actually see more orange in these colors than the original ones. It took a while to realize that's the direction I should go. Actually I picked a strip that is decidedly more orange or coppery and I think it looks really good, but I think I'd be more limited to towel colors with it and DH really didn't care for it at all. I'm charging my camera right now, but I'm going to try to take a photo of the paint chip with the other elements of the room and see what you think. I really value the opinons of this board. I've seen how much help other opinions have been to other posters.

  • elizgonz
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Funcolors, I always appreciate sitting in on these posts. Thanks for contributing.

  • lkplatow
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm surprised at the fear of changing the percentage of the formula, and also about how many folks still advocate for boxing. That all made sense when Joe-the-paint-store-guy had to look up the formula in the book, manually figure out 50% of all the colorants, go to the tint machine, pull up each tint to the right line, and squirt it in manually. If Joe made a math mistake changing the formula, the paint would be not-at-all-what-you-ordered. And if he pulled the tint syringe up a millimeter or two farther on gallon #2 than he did on gallon #1, the two gallons would be off, so of course, you wanted to box.

    But paint tint machines have been computerized for years now. Last time I had something mixed at 125%, the guy typed the color into the computer, changed the strength to "125", opened the gallon of paint and stuck it under the tinter - the machine did the rest. There was no opportunity for a screwup since the machine calculated out all the formula changes, precisely measured all the colorant, and squirted it in.

    I never box paint, and for the last 10 or so years, I have yet to come across an instance where 2 gallons purchased at the same store at the same time (from the same lot number) and tinted by a computerized tint machine have been off such that I could notice (and I'm pretty picky about stuff like that). I have had cases where I went back to get more paint a few weeks later and it doesn't quite match - paint store must have gotten a new batch of tint or base paint or something that threw it off. But 2 gallons on the same day from the same base paint lot and same tinting machine? -- the chances of them being off from each other are infinitesimal.

    I say if you want to try having something mixed at 50% or 125% or whatever, go for it -- so long as the tint machine is computerized and does all the calculations for you, there is little chance of an error in tinting -- though of course, the ever-present chance that the color won't look at all like you hoped it would is still there! :-)

  • PRO
    Lori A. Sawaya
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Fear? Has nothing to do with fear in any way shape or form. The prior discussion has to do with reality. The reality that not everyone has the same level of resources nor the same expectations or tolerances.

    OP wanted to know if this was a good time to consider percentages. It'd be arrogant of me to tell her absolutely no it isn't or absolutely yes it is simply based on my own experiences and outcomes. What she was wanting to understand was what to expect and how to go forward if she decided that percentages was a good *fit* for her.

    Percentanges are just like everything else associated with color, it's a matter of options and choices. Proceeding uninformed and just wingin' it is, of course, an option and can actually be kinda fun. But have a feeling if she was okay with that she wouldn't have asked the question to begin with.

  • stu2900
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    OK, so this is what I've come up with. I'm feeling pretty good about these colors, but am open to any and all suggestions.

    Bagel

    Trusty Tan

  • thankurnmo
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Both really nice choices, and quite similar. Somehow, BAGEL looks better to me.

  • stu2900
    Original Author
    14 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wish I knew what some people do to their cameras to get such realistic photos of color. While these pix aren't bad, they really aren't the as good as some I've seen on these forums. Maybe I need to get a closer shot? Anyway, I'm now leaning towards Bagel too, sheilaaus122. I'm going to get quarts of the paint for each color and make sample boards. I use poster boards for this and have found it to be a lifesaver. If anyone else has color suggestions, though, I'd love to hear them.

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