Have you really compared the costs of reconfiguring the space vs. doing a small second floor addition? I'm not sure the cost difference will be as great as you think it will be. Also, in the long run, the second floor addition sounds like it would be the better "investment" and make your house more desirable when it comes time to sell, with a real master suite and good sized secondary bedrooms.

Would you be satisfied with a master bed room measuring 14 ÃÂ 13 feet, and the other bed room measuring 12 ÃÂ 13? There is enough space to do that and leave each room a closet roughly 6 feet long, but you would lose the linen closet.

I think it might be better to combine one existing bed room with the illegal one, reducing the house to three BR, since if you were selling it you would have to list it as 3BR plus den (bonus room or whatever) anyway. You'd end up with a larger MBR and more closet space for it.

Would you be satisfied with a master bed room measuring 14 ÃÂ 13 feet, and the other bed room measuring 12 ÃÂ 13? There is enough space to do that and leave each room a closet roughly 6 feet long, but you would lose the linen closet.

Where would the 3/4 bath fit into that plan?

Unfortunately, the "illegal" bedroom (we think it may have been a sleeping porch originally) is in a position where it has three outside walls with lots of windows. It shares a common wall with only the bathroom and can't be combined with another bedroom.

Theoretically, I suppose we could make it the family bathroom on the second floor and convert the existing bathroom to a master. But, that would mean completely gutting the current bathroom, rebuilding two bathrooms, and taking out most of the windows of the illegal bedroom and re-stuccoing the walls. Not a cheap or easy proposition either. Right now it makes a nice office space.

When we had the plumber out yesterday to look at the needed repairs to our bathroom, he told us that the most cost-effective thing to do would be to put another toilet in back of the existing toilet. This would be the scenario if we reconfigured in my original question.

I guess my other question is at what size people would think a master bedroom is too small. We certainly don't need all the space in our current nearly 13' by 16' room. But, we do nothing but sleep there (not even a tv in the room), and I suspect other people might want a master bedroom as a retreat/relaxation space. I don't know. Thanks again.

Would you be satisfied with a master bed room measuring 14 ÃÂ 13 feet, and the other bed room measuring 12 ÃÂ 13? There is enough space to do that and leave each room a closet roughly 6 feet long, but you would lose the linen closet.

Where would the 3/4 bath fit into that plan?

The area is 13 ÃÂ 31.5. The dimensions I estimated total slightly more than that once you allow for the thickness of the walls, but only slightly and there is some room to fudge.

A simple hall bathroom can be as small as 5 ÃÂ 7 feet. Running along the 31.5-foot dimension, you could have a 12-foot bedroom, the 5-foot side of the new bathroom and closets, and a 14-foot bedroom.

12 + 5 + 14 = 31

The two walls together will be more than .5 foot, but a 3/4 bath can be narrower than 5 feet. It won't be luxurious, it won't sell as a "master suite" -- which nowadays requires a bathroom that is bigger than than smallest bedroom and at least twice the size of the "family" bath -- but it's what the OP asked about. I have rented two places in which the master bath was less than 5 feet wide.

got it. It would work, but then of course, the second bedroom would have no access to the en suite bathroom, so would have to use one of the downstairs bathrooms.

the second bedroom would have no access to the en suite bathroom, so would have to use one of the downstairs bathrooms.

There's an existing bathroom on the second floor. Its location is the reason that the illegal bed room can't be combined with any other.

When this house was built 100 years ago people considered themselves lucky to have one (usually smallish) bathroom for the entire family. Yet, today people who buy into these prime neighborhoods like mine seem to assume they also need all of the amenities of a brand new house (like a huge master bathroom) in addition to having the location and character of the older home. That is the quandary we have here.

It is sounding as though perhaps even if we made this change most buyers wouldn't think it very desirable anyway since the space would not be humungous. So, probably we are better off in spending our money elsewhere in the house and letting future buyers decide if they want to put on a second story addition to be able to add a second bath/master suite on the upper floor.

We don't have cable tv at home and are renting since our house is currently uninhabitable. Perhaps at the rental I've been watching too much HGTV where all buyers (even those of the most modest and inexpensive houses) seem to think they need the master suite.

Thanks for the opinions.

Why is the house uninhabitable? That sounds like a much bigger problem than not having a master bath!!

My second floor has two bedrooms, a full bath and a half bath in 30 x 19, but all of it could be contained in 30 x 13 because the other part of the 19 is stairs and circulation and deep closets with big bedrooms. So two smaller bedrooms and a bath should be able to fit in that footprint, properly laid out.

chispa--We had a freeze up and are getting our plumbing and heating systems repaired. That's why we aren't living in the house. Since we are going to have to do some wall opening and perhaps some tearing out in the upstairs bath already anyway, I started to wonder if this might also be the time to do the things that would be needed to add a bath. It is the old line of thinking, well as long as we are doing this maybe we should be doing that.

ineffable space--thanks for the feedback on how your house is laid out. Did I get you right when I understand that your smaller bedrooms and 1/2 bath would fit in the size space I am talking about, but you also have additional big bedrooms. If we'd do this, we'd then be left with the illegal bedroom (the smallest in the house) and another bedroom about 12' by 13'.

"We don't have cable tv at home and are renting since our house is currently uninhabitable. Perhaps at the rental I've been watching too much HGTV where all buyers (even those of the most modest and inexpensive houses) seem to think they need the master suite."

People like me want a 100 yr old home that has not been butchered. Spend your money on a vacation!

No what I meant is that the bedrooms run the full 19 'width, so they are large and have deep closets. But the bathrooms and the majority of that bedroom space (12x13 each) fits within your footprint. One bathroom is ensuite and the other has hall access.

Re: the illegal bedroom. Ok, so it's not a "legal" bedroom because it doesn't have a closet but was the conversion of it legal (building permits, etc.)? At lot of us have rooms that are being used as bedrooms, seniors do it quite often as in using the dining room as a bedroom so they don't have to climb the stairs.
The reason I ask is that when you do major construction like you are planning, you may have an issue with the room (bedroom or whatever you call it). JMHO

If it's just for resale considerations, get comps for your neighborhood before you decide. In my neighborhood, it would be a selling point, even with the modest dimensions because not many 3 or 4 bedroom houses in that price range have a 2d bathroom upstairs. Not many owners are eager to make costly additions/updates unless they have too.

But, be aware that it would likely increase your property taxes.

Throughout the years as we have worked on the house, we have been very cautious and done everything possible to do sensitive renovations that fit the period of the house. I too hate to see lovely old houses where people have butchered them. In fact, last night as I was once again watching "Flip or Flop" on HGTV I thought to myself how sad that they are coming in and just rearing down all of those great lathe and plaster walls.

We have three kids, and our "illegal" bedroom worked as a bedroom for one of them for ten years. We just stuck a wardrobe in one corner, so we know all about using a space that isn't technically a bedroom as a bedroom. Now it makes a great office, something else that I would think might be desirable to a lot of people.

We know for certain that in our neighborhood a master bath would be a huge selling point. In fact, about five years ago, a Realtor told us that this is the only thing our house is lacking.

I am starting to think that there is just not enough space in the existing footprint to justify doing this. We know that many people do want move-in ready which would make doing this a selling point. However, amazingly enough, in our highly desirable neighborhood many people do buy these expensive houses and then come in and make extensive renovations like additions. We always ask ourselves where in the world do they get the money to make a purchase that expensive and then immediately also sink a ton of money in the house.

Thanks for all of the help.