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leafy02

High School Sports Question (and outrage)

leafy02
10 years ago

I need to get the perspective of some regular people and maybe even some people with experience coaching high school sports, or with kids on sports teams.

DD is a high school freshman this year and wants to play softball, which she has been playing in a community league for a couple of years.

There was a meeting for new players and 22 girls showed up hoping to make the team. The coach said that there were only 7 spots open on the team and the actual tryouts for the team will be in February, and until then it is 5 practices per week, including one at an ungodly hour on the weekend. After the meeting, there were only 20 girls who wanted to go forward.

After a week of practice, the coach cut the new girls down to 10, so the 10 girls who were cut don't get to practice with the team until February tryouts.

My DD made the cut, so this isn't a sour grapes question, but I can't figure out what the justification is for leaving those girls out.

In light of our "obesity epidemic" when we are trying to encourage young people to be active, here we have kids who are volunteering to do rigorous exercise 5x a week, and who are probably looking forward to the peer-relationship benefits of being on a team--totally understandable in a school of 2500 students!-- and we are telling them "No"?

I don't get it. The girls have to have all their own equipment--gloves, helmets, bats, etc., so it isn't like the school would have to outfit the extra 10 girls. Why not let them at least practice with the team until February? Or better yet, be on the team?

I'm happy for DD but my heart goes out to the girls who were hoping to play and won't get any further than this. The coach told them to go play in the community league to get better and try out again next year, but many families don't have the ability to do the insane amount of driving and schedule-juggling that community league demands. If I was a single parent or didn't schedule my own work hours, we couldn't have done community league either.

It was like this in DD's middle school, too, so I know this coach/team isn't the only one like that. Am I the only one who thinks it stinks for kids?

Comments (52)

  • mitchdesj
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think it's a question of logistics and numbers, as far as letting the 10 extra girls practice with the potential 10 new ones as well as the regular team members. The coach wants to spend his time developing future team members.

    I do get your point though.

  • redcurls
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It also allows the cut students a chance to try something else.

  • hhireno
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I definitely see what you're saying but imagine the outrage if those 10 girls worked out 5 days a week for all those months just to get cut in February? While they might benefit by the exercise and training, the team bonding that would occur and then be yanked away would be cruel.

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are plenty of other ways to get exercise than organized school sports teams. Not everyone will be winners in the Chess club or science/invention club or spelling bee competitions, only the best are kept for competitions. However, for some reason parents whose kids are not good in sports think their kids should be able to join the sport group of kids. For the sport kids, that’s the thing they are good at. The chess club isn’t going to put their weakest member up against competition from other schools nor is the spelling bee group. The science club isn’t going to put forth the clueless kid in a major competition. Why the exception for the sports group? I really don’t get that. As far as the obesity problem goes parents need to take responsibility for that. Schools can’t do everything. Set up a workout area in the home and have a library of workout tapes. The kids can invite friends. It’s fun. Or encourage your kids to start a beginner running club or both running and workout tapes.

    When I was young I was very fast and could out run all my school mates. My freshman year I tried out for the track team. I didn’t make it. I was not in good enough shape to survive the training tryouts. What a blow! After that I took it upon myself to join a gym plus start jogging with a goal to reach at least five miles. The next year I made the team, the year after I was nominated captain and the next year I qualified for state and held three school records (for almost twenty years). Now that’s a lesson well learned! I had to work for it.

    This post was edited by jterrilynn on Fri, Sep 13, 13 at 10:27

  • bestyears
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Around here, high school sports are a real step up from middle school. It suddenly gets extremely competitive. I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. As other posters mentioned, there are often other places within the community to get playing time. For the high school athlete who wants to compete at the highest level, often for a chance to continue competing in college, a highly selective high school team is a must. The heartbreak I see around here is that sometimes the coaches allow too many kids to make the team and they sometimes spend years sitting the bench. They are usually at every practice, and every game, but don't play at all. I just hate to see that.

  • ILoveRed
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "When I was young I was very fast and could out run all my school mates. My freshman year I tried out for the track team. I didn’t make it. I was not in good enough shape to survive the training tryouts. What a blow! After that I took it upon myself to join a gym plus start jogging with a goal to reach at least five miles. The next year I made the team, the year after I was nominated captain and the next year I qualified for state and held three school records (for almost twenty years). Now that’s a lesson well learned! I had to work for it."

    Jterrilynn--love it!

    Leafy--better to get cut now than to work your butt off and get cut later. Hope your daughter makes the final cut. Both of my dds were athletes too and hold school records. Have fun..it goes too fast.

  • fourkids4us
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It's disappointing, sure, but that's going to happen in h.s. or even any team where tryouts occur. Odd though, that since this is only practice and no one has actually tried out for the team, that she would cut out those 10 girls and not give them the chance to improve their skills in time for the tryouts in February.

    My dd is a freshman and this year tried out for JV soccer. The tryouts for JV and varsity were handled together as one group. 32 girls tried out. During the course of the week, the freshmen girls were telling the parents that there were rumors there wasn't going to be a JV team at all since there weren't enough kids to field two teams. NO word at all from the coach over the course of the week long tryouts. just rumors the freshmen were hearing from the seniors. So the last day of tryouts, the coach called each girl in one by one - no JV, and you either made Varsity or didn't. 5 girls out of 32 were cut. My dd made the team, but was basically told by the coach that she was going to ride the bench but if she could prove herself in practice, might see playing time. Disappointing obviously and for the first five games she and 5 of the 7 freshmen sat on the bench. Her last game, she got to play the last 2 minutes when it was clear it didn't matter (they were losing 3-0).

    My dd's attitude was...at least she gets to practice five days a week and improve her skills and give her a decent shot at making the team again next year. It's annoying to her that she doesnt really play. However, the plus side is that the upperclassmen have been incredibly friendly to the freshmen, lots of team bonding, no cliquey behavior. I think it was actually a great way for my dd to start h.s. and feel like she was a part of something, and feeling included by the upperclassmen, esp during school.

    OTOH, her best friend, who also made the team, prior to tryouts was really torn up whether to tryout for soccer or join the cross country team. She started running last year and is an amazing runner - just ran a local 10-mile race two weeks ago and came in third in her age group. Now she is sitting on the bench alongside dd and feeling really horrible that she COULD be using that time running/training for cross country and actually getting to participate in the races rather than sitting on a bench. She's second guessing her decision and wondering if she should have done cross country instead. So as parents, we were a little miffed that we were not told upfront that b/c of the tryout numbers, there wouldn't be a JV team. That would have allowed several of the girls the option to instead tryout for a different sport (there were a few freshmen that were cut).

    For my dd, it has worked out so far. The exercise is great for her, she says she's learned a lot in terms of improving her skills as well as her conditioning/endurance. I just hope that she makes the team next year after probably having to sit on the bench all season.

    So yeah, I don't really understand why the girls couldn't at least be part of the practices prior to the tryouts. Here, the soccer coach had conditioning sessions all summer that were open to anyone planning to tryout - that actually gave girls a chance to see whether they really wanted to play or not and some girls did drop out and didn't end up trying out. However, perhaps the coach had some good reason for not taking those girls. Could have been bad attitudes, complete lack of skill, or something else. Tough for the girls but certainly a life lesson and perhaps will push them like Jterrilyn's experience!

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    One thing that has not been mentioned is the long list of injuries that can occur with an obese or other out of shape athlete wantabe. Heck you’d need a whole extra team of volunteer nurses just to watch that group plus possibly have a few people with knowledge of future lawsuits in this day and age.

  • fourkids4us
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Injuries aren't limited to obese and out of shape athletes. There have already been several injuries on my dd's soccer team. One of the girls is currently in a boot due to a stress fracture. Not obese or out of shape - she's a year round athlete.

    I do think your comment, jterri, is a little disparaging. While I don't think the kids should make a team if they aren't prepared, commenting that a whole team of nurses be available is kinda rude IMHO. It certainly isn't encouraging to kids who actually are showing an interest in exercise. And there are significantly overweight people who are still actually strong and fit. I've seen them at the gym. And there are plenty of them playing professional football.

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I didn’t mean to sound disparaging, of course injuries are common but you sort of put words in my mouth because I am talking about people who are not fit and who may or may not be obese on top of it. They will have more injuries. If parents really cared about their kids getting into sports when they are not in physical condition to do so why do they not help their kids realize that they need to get in shape and help them do so. Why does it always have to be someone else’s fault…like the school or coach?

  • fourkids4us
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not blaming the coach or school. I agree there. I don't think the OP was suggesting that obese kids get out there and try out for the team. I get the sense that she was just disappointed that the coach cut these girls from the practice sessions rather than let them work out with the hopes of making the team in February. Perhaps there was some rationale for it on the coach's part, but my sense from the OP is that she is wondering what that rationale was. I know from my dd's experience, though she plays year round sports - lacrosse, soccer and basketball, she did not have the endurance and speed at the beginning of the summer that was necessary to make the cut for soccer. Rather than cut those kids out right away, and there were plenty of them, the coach offered a running training plan for the summer as well as conditioning sessions all summer long. While my dd didn't work as hard as she could have, she knew that in order to make the team, she needed to run an 8 min mile, no exceptions. She ran all summer and did the conditioning workouts the coach held. She knocked 3 minutes off her mile - running a 6:57 mile at tryouts. At the beginning of the summer, she ran a 10 min mile. Had the coach timed the girls at the beginning of the summer (my dd timed herself on a run at home), and then watched my dd's lack of speed and endurance at the beginning sessions, I'm not so sure my dd would have put forth the effort on her own to try to get there by the end of the summer. Sure, some kids (like you) will be motivated by that and want to prove you can do it, while others will be discouraged by the coach's lack of faith in their initial performance. Now I'm not sure what the right answer is, or what the rational was for the particular coach the OP mentions, but I can see how it would frustrate some kids. And maybe that means they wouldn't have what it takes to be on the team anyway if they give up so easily. Who knows?

    As the mother of a 14 y/o, I also know that despite my best efforts to motivate and give advice, kids don't often want to listen to their parents (trying to encourage my dd to run was met with - "I know what I'm doing, Mom."). Sometimes it takes an outsider to be the motivation and encouragement. And not all kids have parents who even care, unfortunately.

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And not all kids have parents who even care, unfortunately.


    Yes, I agree with that part. I pretty much raised myself and had zero support. However, as a parent of two now grown boys I do get that they will not always follow along with what’s best for them. One has to try though. Through all my best efforts to get my boys involved in sports I only ever had brief successes. The home workout tapes did work though. I just kept trying a few different types until they found something they liked. I’m now staying in my boy’s townhouse while I look for a place to buy and as I write my twenty seven year old is working out in his room. They both do and have mini gyms along with tapes/disc they workout to. I’m very happy that I got them involved in something that they have stuck with after all these years.

  • ellendi
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The fact is there are only so many spot on any of these teams. It's unfortunate.
    Interestingly enough, other than track and cross country, which had no limit, my two daughters were not involved in the school sports.
    My husband's joke was, why do something for free when I can pay for it! Meaning all the gymnastic, dance, ice skating, horseback riding lessons my girls were involved in.

  • ks92
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just a question -- are these girls practicing with the team coaches? Many state high school athletic associations do not allow practice with coaches in the off season and have specific dates they are allowed to be with coaching staff. Does this apply here?

  • hhireno
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ellendi,
    Heeheehee to your husband's comment.

  • leafy02
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you all for the comments. To answer the question some of you asked, yes, these are real practices with the real coach. It must not be against the rules here.

    I appreciate the perspective some of you pointed out that at least the girls who were cut this early still have the option of participating in other sports. It would be disappointing to put all one's time into the softball practices and then get cut in February.

    Overall, I think that I just have a fundamentally different idea of what public schools and their sports teams are for. Given that I work primarily with kids from low income families, I look at public schools as a tremendous resource for kids to access things they can't access elsewhere in the community the way my own children can.

    My husband was only able to attend college because of an athletic scholarship (and now has a PhD), so I do understand the value of being a competitive high school athlete.

    At the same time, I work with many kids whose lives would benefit greatly from having a couple of hours a day spent in positive, team-building, self-esteem enhancing activities, and who are very interested in playing a team sport, but who don't have any adults who will drive them to Y leagues or fund them to play in the travel teams that get kids ready for competition at the high-school level.

    I think it's sad that by age 14, they are "too late" to play a sport if they aren't already good at it. It goes against the grain for me to shut kids down at that age.

  • ellendi
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And to add to what you just said, your husband is the exception. How many kids actually get a scholarship?

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Leafy, on the flip side though, it’s not always overly positive for self-esteem to be in a high school sport if you are bad at it. Kids can be cruel. However, I do not think it’s necessarily too late at 14 if they haven’t been involved before. It would take a lot of work through and for some a bit of serious mentoring if they are not self-motivated. So, you bring up a very good point of something that would be very beneficial in an after school offering. Maybe “I want to be an athlete but don’t know how” club where there would be conditioning plus maybe touch on rules and goals and maybe some competitions set up within that group.

    This post was edited by jterrilynn on Sat, Sep 14, 13 at 16:22

  • jlj48
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We have a mixed bag of experiences. My oldest son played little league baseball since he was 5 years old. He tried out for the high school baseball team and did not make it, although several of the coach's son's friends made the team and did not have the skills developed that were needed for playing at that level. The politics with this team was very frustrating for my son and us as parents. He quit and never tried again. It was sad to watch him be hurt.
    However, my daughter is only 11 and plays on a travel softball team. It is very intense and in our area, college recruiters look at the travel teams more than the high school teams because they can go to a tournament and see tons of girls in one setting. I think it's a little ridiculous but MANY girls her age are now being groomed to play high school softball and college. They go to training camps and play year round ball. Lots of kids from our city get sports scholarships so it is a very real possibility to get college paid for if one happens to be a good athlete.

  • joaniepoanie
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is this team one of the top teams in the state and they want to hold onto their winning records? That would be the only reason to perhaps justify 5 practices a week for hopefuls, 5 months before the season even starts. If the team is average and made up of girls who enjoy softball and just want to play a HS sport, then this schedule seems a little insane to me.

    The coach did those 10 girls a favor by cutting them now with only 7 slots available, and I doubt any of them will show up for try outs.

  • camlan
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think it's important to look at the goal for high school sports. It really isn't about getting the students fit and healthy.

    For the more "glamorous" sports, like football, it's about winning.

    Those football players aren't fit because they play football. They play football because they are fit. And because they have some natural talent for the sport.

    Playing a game of football or baseball or soccer isn't going to make you fit. It's one game, there's a lot of time spent sitting on the bench or standing on the sidelines.

    It's what you do to be good at the sport that makes you fit--the extra running, and weight lifting and stretching and eating right so that you have the energy to do all this. Well, maybe swimming, where the practices are mostly swimming, is an exception.

    If school sports were meant to keep the entire student body fit, they would be intramural sports, with each school having several teams that play against each other, not one "superstar" team that goes out and plays other schools.

    I know it's not a popular opinion these days, but I'm not sure that getting kids hyped on team sports is the best way to ensure that they learn how to keep fit past childhood. It's hard in many areas for adults to find a team for the sport they like that they can play on. It can even be difficult to find one person that's a good match to play tennis with, and then a struggle to find a place to play.

    Much better to teach kids a variety of ways to keep fit--a 20 minute walk every day, limiting sweets and junk food, learning to ride a bike, or safe weight lifting, or jumping rope or swimming. A bunch of different ways to work exercise into your daily life, that can easily change when the weather is too hot or too cold or too rainy or snowy.

  • dedtired
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Do they have a Junior Varsity team? Often students who don't make Varsity are on the JV team where they can hone their skills and move up next year. Having such a long tryout period seems rather cruel if you don't make a team in the end.

  • Sheeisback_GW
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Just a general comment... I understand if a school is large all kids can't be on a team. I just think it's sad that some kids don't get to be involved in sports because they're not good enough. If you're allowed to be on a team without being cut by tryouts, you might not get to start or play often, but at least you can be on the team if you want. Most don't make it to a professional level but a lot of friendships and memories can be made. I know there are other extra curricular things out there but some parents maybe can't afford for their kid or kids to be involved. - This is also assuming you don't have to pay to play which I think is another sad thing. I played quite a few sports in school and have siblings. At the time, I'm not sure our parents could've afforded for us to participate in all of them if that were the case.

    With different personalities this could also discourage kids from wanting to even bother to try out again. I wasn't born a gifted athlete. I wasn't terrible but didn't get to play much in the early years. This drove me to practice and improve. I can't say if that would've been the case for me if I was shoved away. Yes, yes I know it could be used as one of those learning moments when you don't always get what you want in life, but I don't think it should have to be one of those moments as there will be plenty of others.

  • merrygardener
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow, things have changed since I joined in high school sports at the beginning of the Title 9 era! Back then, participation in sports was all about discovering your talents, limits, getting along with others, representing your school and having fun... All while also learning to juggle school and sport with regard to time management. It seemed a pretty healthy way to move through adolescence! I spent my high school years dabbling: cheer squad one year, volleyball (one season discovered that I was really not good at it!), track, cross country and gymnastics rounded out my " do a sport every season" desires! It seems that large schools that intend to educate the whole child and foster life long healthy habits would be less exclusive or have some really great intramural programs going... or include the JV, "C" squad teams for team development and for participation.

    I can only imagine the loss to our society if orchestra and band programs mirrored the sport programs and only accepted those students who began their structured learning at 3 or 4 years of age.

  • jlj48
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What a great point merrygardener about the orchestra and band programs. I'm thrilled that my daughter is in the orchestra and gets to participate and love it when you find those few schools that find instruments for those who can't afford them. I just read about a program at the university I graduated from that started a program in the community teaching orchestra to students after school that were not allowed to participate because of low grades. Most couldn't afford instruments as well. Donations happened, instruments were provided and the program began. Amazingly, the kids were allowed to participate and their grades went up, and now the program is expanded throughout the community.
    Sorry for the sidetrack...

  • ellendi
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are so many after school clubs, but unfortunately the sport ones get all the recognition and prestige.

    One of my daughter's did drama club. Although this was competitive in that there were just so many lead roles, if one chose there was something for everyone. No one was turned away.

  • gsciencechick
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Physical activity/exercise really drops off for girls around this age partly because unless someone is good enough at a sport to make a school or travel team, there are few other opportunities for girls to be active. Some schools have after-school programs like Girls on the Run, but that's the exception.

    Motor skills required for softball such as throwing, catching, tracking a ball, are best developed in elementary years, and if someone never developed them well (that would be me), they are at a major disadvantage when they get to HS trying to compete with girls with better skills and experience.

    I think nearly every softball and women's soccer team member is a major in our department. They get at least a partial scholarship. Some of them have incredible academics and time-management skills and got accepted to top graduate programs.

    I agree on theatre! Our programs do open auditions in the fall, but there is something for everyone if they do not get an acting role.

  • Sheeisback_GW
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I can only imagine the loss to our society if orchestra and band programs mirrored the sport programs and only accepted those students who began their structured learning at 3 or 4 years of age."

    I very much agree!

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    And the good thing about “band” is that after an audition and a determination of skill, most schools have different levels like a beginning band and there can be up to three levels higher than that. So, the new inexperienced kids have their own group and compete within that level.
    Depending on the school “band” usually offers more levels than sports, sports teams usually just have the junior varsity as members of a team who are not the main players in a competition.

    This post was edited by jterrilynn on Sun, Sep 15, 13 at 11:31

  • PRO
    acdesignsky
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our daughters played volleyball throughout middle school at their small private school. The girls were pretty awful the first year. It was the inaugural year for the VB program, so the entire team was bad! They tried hard and practiced like crazy. By year 2, the entire team was better. Same thing year 3. Now, the 5 th year of the program the team is playing in state level tournaments with the same girls who started playing for the 1st time in 7th grade. DD2 played 6-8th grade and felt she was a strong player. She tried out for her HS team freshman year. The coach already knew 8 or do of the 20 girls who tried out from the public middle school team. Guess which 8 made the team? The other 12 were basically ignored during the tryouts. It was painfully obvious to watch. There are no opportunities for HS girls to play unless it is for their School or über competitive travel leagues. I wish their was another level for the girls who just enjoy the game. I assume it would be pricey, but it's worth it. Plenty of parents would be willing to pay. There are adult intramural teams, but they don't welcome teens.

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Maybe my “I want to be an athlete but don’t know how” after school offering is not really a good title. However it does seem painfully obvious that there should be something that involves some sort of physical competition within a team. Maybe a gym class type of offering that’s kicked up a few notches that covers a few sports and completion within? Maybe even occasional co-ed competitions with young men and women on both teams!? Schools seem to be without much funds these days so I’m not sure how it would all go down but it seems to be needed.

  • camlan
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Does it have to be competitive and on a team?

    I hated team sports, because I usually wasn't very good at them and knew I was dragging the whole team down. And I hated the competitive atmosphere, again, because I wasn't very coordinated and therefore usually came in last.

    But a program that taught the basics of a variety of athletic skills--throwing different balls, catching them, shooting a basket, hitting a ball with a bat/racket/etc., the basics of how to ride a bike, swim, run/walk for physical fitness, could help young people learn what they are good at and give them physical activity at the same time.

    I keep coming back to: What is the goal? Is the goal to get all kids on a team? (I'd have hated that.) Or is the goal to get kids physically fit, as referenced in the OP.

    Even kids who aren't great at sports might want a chance to learn about them and practice the skills, without the pressure of competition.

  • daisyinga
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Am I the only one who thinks it stinks for kids?

    I agree with you. If the facilities set a necessary cap on the number of team members, then I understand. But barring that, high school sports should be accessible to all the kids, not just the best athletes.

    During my high school years I started high school at a large school and later moved to a small school. At the large high school only the really good athletes got to play most sports. At the small high school most people could play on a team if they wanted to. They didn't all get game playing time on the football or baseball varsity team, but the other sports were within reach of normal kids of good fitness level. It is so nice to be in a school like that. Yes, it sucks for the kids in big high schools where only a few students make the cut.

    Overall, I think that I just have a fundamentally different idea of what public schools and their sports teams are for. Given that I work primarily with kids from low income families, I look at public schools as a tremendous resource for kids to access things they can't access elsewhere in the community the way my own children can.

    I agree with you. I think it's short sighted of taxpayers not to fund more staffing/equipment/facilities for sports teams for high school.

    However, for some reason parents whose kids are not good in sports think their kids should be able to join the sport group of kids. For the sport kids, that’s the thing they are good at. The chess club isn’t going to put their weakest member up against competition from other schools nor is the spelling bee group. The science club isn’t going to put forth the clueless kid in a major competition. Why the exception for the sports group?

    I don't think people should ever stop exercising their brains and their bodies, and both are important. Sports are not only for the athletically gifted, but for everyone who wants to reap the benefits of the team work, exercise and camaraderie that is sports. Chess club and science fair are not only for the academically gifted, but for everyone who wants to develop that side of his/her life.

    No, chess clubs and science fairs may not send everyone to the competition, but at our schools all kids are welcome to join the academic clubs, art clubs and music programs. Everyone can come to the meetings and the practices.

    There are plenty of athletes who like chess, science or music. The school should provide enough resources so the athletes can play chess or submit an entry to the science fair, and to my knowledge schools do. Even if football is an athlete's first love, if he's not that good at chess but wants to play, more power to him!!! That's what extracurriculars at schools should be, an opportunity to stretch the mind and body. Same with the academically gifted kids and sports - even if they can't be a varsity quarterback, they should be able to participate in sports.

    I know quite a few people here who put their kids in private schools to give them sports opportunities their kids wouldn't have in the big public high schools.

    Where we live, a lot of parents spend a lot of money on special camps, special coaching, etc. so their kids can make the high school team cut and actually get playing time on the varsity teams. And one of my kids was in a year round club sport that many parents couldn't afford, and he was able to compete in varsity meets. Nevertheless, I love, love, love seeing the "regular" kids who don't get the special coaching, don't get the year round training, aren't even particularly athletic get out there and practice and participate at the JV meets. I love it. I think it's great that they put themselves out there and make the effort, knowing they aren't that good at it. That's the mentality I want my kids to have - you don't have to be good at it. Just get out there, do your best, keep moving and have fun.

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Daisy, I agree that all kids should have opportunities to do it all. What I don’t like is that there is not a way to do it without punishing those who are gifted in those certain areas and where it could affect their ability to compete at their highest level. A senior surrounded by kindergarten may not reach his or her highest level in competitions, to be your best you need the competition of other gifted sorts. I would like to think that to some extent high school would set you up for life in the real world. When kids leave school they are not all going to get promotions either. Do we continue this “everything has to be the same for all” mentality when they leave school? Should it be law that if an employer gives one a promotion all should get a promotion? Where does it stop? So, back to my idea above of having some kind of beginner sports or accelerated gym type class offering after school for those who want to be active, learn sports and possibly have competitions within. Even if you did not make the “team” you can still engage in conditioning and further knowledge of sports, and, who knows perhaps with hard work some will get on the team the next year.

  • daisyinga
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Where you and I don't agree is that I don't believe that finding ways to include more kids in high school team athletics has to punish the gifted kids and hold them back from competing at the highest level. Certainly there might be players who don't get to play during the actual competition. And there might be tiers of practice so that the most talented players are practicing with/against each other. Also, I realize that taxpayers have to balance the needs of the kids vs. the financial realities of the district. Certainly some sports are very facilities dependent and the number of kids who are able to practice in that venue will be limited. Nevertheless, as much as it is practical, I would like to see high school team sports opened up to more kids. I think there is certainly a mentality in some areas that high school team sports are only for the elite athletes, and I'd like to see that mentality changed as much as is financially reasonable.

    I don't see anyone proposing that everything has to be the same for all.

    I do think that I understand what you are trying to say. Maybe not, but I think so. My kids are academically gifted and I also have had the vantage point of working with kids who struggle academically. I did not want my kids held back academically by those who were a great deal less talented, and in some cases kids who were as talented but less motivated. We don't want our talented kids held back. I get that. I feel that.

    But as much as is financially possible, I want the kids who are not academically gifted to have access to school academic teams, clubs and competitions. Giving less talented kids access doesn't have to hold my kid back.

    And, as I said earlier, I have a kid who had a significant edge in his sport over many of the kids on the team. No, I didn't want him held back. But I was happy as a booster to help pay for and support facilities and coaching for the team he didn't even use to make the program accessible to every student who wanted to participate.

    As far as high school being a mimic of real life conditions, no, I'm not a fan of that, either. To some extent I do believe students need to get real-world consequences in high school. You don't get the answers right, you don't get a A. You don't do your homework, you fail. Fine.

    But I believe the purpose of education is to give each student avenues to develop his/her potential in a way that student might not get later in real life. I have worked with underprivileged young people. High school is a place to teach them tools and skills that will lift them up, not keep them smashed down. Public high school is the place to make it clear to a student that yes, your mother may be a drug addict and your father may have lost his job and you may be living in a cheap hotel room, but education can give you a ladder to climb up.

    I believe with all my heart, passionately, that the poorest student living out of a car deserves to be taught the most/best math and science he/she can handle, if that student wants to be taught. Just because that student is not one of the academic elite doesn't mean that student shouldn't get access to as high an academic level as that student wants and is able to achieve. Music booster clubs should band together to help the poorer students afford to rent instruments and uniforms. We can still have first chairs and second chairs, we can still have kids win awards and go to Governor's Honors. And I believe we can make high school team athletics more accessible to less athletically talented students without harming the best athletes.

    If we as a community can offer opportunities to every student who wants them, we will lift everyone up. I don't believe life is always a pie and there are only so many slices to be divided. Sometimes that's true. But sometimes we can bake a bigger pie.

  • leafy02
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    " I don't believe life is always a pie and there are only so many slices to be divided. Sometimes that's true. But sometimes we can bake a bigger pie."

    Amen to that. My DS is a very talented athlete, but I would rather he go to a school where everyone is allowed to participate than to a school who limits other children because they don't have the same skill level.

    The lesson I want him to take away from school isn't that the "little people" should stay out of his way so that he can compete for athletic glory at his 'elevated' level. It's high school, not the Olympics.

  • daisyinga
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree, leafy.

    And I also did not want my kids to divide the world into the smart kids, the music kids, the sports kids. The idea that you have to be one of the best to participate trips a lot of kids up.

    The vast majority of athletes on varsity high school teams won't earn a scholarship and won't play pro ball. The vast majority of kids in the orchestra and band won't be professional musicians. There are other benefits to school team sports and school music programs, and I think we should try to make those benefits available to as many kids as we reasonably can.

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don’t believe that either Leafy. AGAIN, I just wish that there could be a place for all. Example: the children with developmental / learning disabilities have classes suited to their needs and the gifted kids have classes for their needs. The beginning band kids have classes suited for their needs and the advanced band kids have more advanced. It’s to no ones advantage to put them all in the same class. I just find it curious how so many parents do not seem to have the same respect for gifted athletes and want their non-sporty little Johnny and Susie to participate at the same level when they are not at the same level. Again, there should be some sort of after school offering for those kids. They would have the opportunity to work real hard on conditioning and further their knowledge of a particular sport. With hard work they would have the chance of making the team the next year. It is not DIVIDING when your child has the opportunity to work his or her way up and is given the tools to do so. It is HELPING your child.

    Or, we could just say screw all those athletes who worked real hard to be the best and let Johnny and Suzie join because they are just sooo very special they should just have things handed to them. They shouldn’t learn that you have to work hard for what you want. They shouldn’t learn that their talents might be elsewhere and that's ok. Their parents shouldn’t even try to get school programs that are suited for kids at the beginning level who want to be in sports. No, just stick them in with no skill with the seasoned athletes. Then the school can spend the money that could have gone to a suitable program and spend it on the extra busses, bus drivers and gas shipping little Johnny Susie and hundreds of others around the state for all the out of town matches.

    Don’t you see I’m trying for a solution here? My kids are out of high school but I would love it if teens had some sort of beginning sports offering at school. I really do not see how one could be against that unless they just wanted the glory of their child involved in advanced sports regardless of their level.

    This post was edited by jterrilynn on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 13:31

  • ellendi
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    jt, that is why cross country and track are great. No one is eliminated! Kids learn to be part of a team, yet they develop at their own pace.
    I agree with you that not everyone should get a place on the varsity line up.
    There are disappointments in other clubs as well. My daughter worked really hard both singing and volunteering her time in the Drama Club and did get lead singing roles.
    Yet, when it was most important to her, in her senior year she did not. What upset me was that since there are so few boys, all you had to do was be a boy and a lead role was handed to you!

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Track must have changed! While the long distance part didn’t seem to have a cut because kids just sort of fell out on their own (I am now going to date myself) the kids who wanted to run the 100, 220, 440 (no longer called that) or mile were cut if they were not good enough. Some made it, but barely, and did not participate in the competition with other schools part unless they had a half way decent time. My son was fast but not in condition, he could have been a good middle distance runner like me. He did not put the time into it to get into condition to make the cut. As a freshman and a few years before, he wanted to spend the limited time I allowed with video games playing video games. He did start doing the home video workouts I provided though (but after the fact) and did learn a lesson. When he was old enough to get a job he did so and worked really hard at working his way up. It’s all part of growing up and being prepared for the outside world once you reach high school. I didn’t moan or molly coddle him, he didn’t want it bad enough to put in the work when we discussed him getting involved in track a whole year or two before. I felt it was more my job to get that learning experience across then baby him for not making the track team. My kids know that I will help and support them anyway possible but they have to hold up their end of the stick.

    This post was edited by jterrilynn on Mon, Sep 16, 13 at 13:29

  • jakabedy
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    On a practical basis, I'm trying to figure out just what the open-to-all format would look like. Or maybe I'm trying to figure out what it is everyone is wanting it to look like. Is the goal simply to have the physical activity? Is the goal simply to participate in a team sport activity? Is the goal to hope the proximity to the more elite athletes will encourage the marginal or poor athlete to improve?

    Is this to be accomplished during the school day, in a class period? Because this is how it works with the bands and choruses. If so, are we OK with our kids taking this rather than a scholastic class? And are we OK with the additional hiring that will be necessary to run these classes? Or is it to take place outside of class hours, as an extracurricular? Are the parents of these kids going to have a booster organization that raises funds for the equipment and facility upkeep? If they couldn't afford the club teams, or couldn't manage the schedule, what has changed? There will still be after school and evening and weekend practices, games and matches.

    I think, to some degree, this should factor into a parent's choice for his/her child's school. Large schools are typically more competitive when it comes to making anything: sports teams, symphonic band, cheerleading, drama, select chorus, etc. There may be four years of Cantonese offered at the school, but it's also going to be tough for any non-elite athlete to make the teams. It's a matter of making trade-offs. I know people who have opted to stay in smaller towns, or in smaller school districts simply for this reason -- more opportunity for the child to dabble in different activities.

  • daisyinga
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think those are great questions, jakabedy. Like you, I know people who have opted to stay in smaller towns or send their kids to private school simply for these reasons. We don't all have that option, but it is an option for some.

    Speaking strictly for myself, I don't expect everything to be open to all in everything, all the time, at every level. As I said, I don't even necessarily think every person on the team should compete at meets.

    The answer to your question is the goal simply to have a physical activity or to play an organized sports is (for me) no. What I would like to see is school team sports more accessible instead of reserved for only a few elite athletes. I have many reasons. For one thing, I think school team sports help some students, not all, but some, feel more connected to the school. I think having more students play on high school team sports also helps more parents stay connected to the community and the school. One of the goals, not all, is connectedness to the school and community. This is a win/win for the elite athletes as well. I could probably write a dissertation on my thoughts about school team sports.

    Is the goal to help the marginal athlete to improve? Not for me.

    I don't care one way or the other whether these activities take place as a credit class or after school. I'm fine with parents having booster clubs to raise finances.

    If they couldn't afford the club teams or manage the schedule, what else has changed? Not sure how to answer this question. In my experience club teams are far, far more expensive than school teams. Others may have a different experience. If not affording club teams is your issue, then why even have school team sports at all? Why not just do away with school team sports altogether and let just the kids whose parents have the money put them in a club sport?

    Managing the schedule - one of my kids participated in a club sport, a varsity school team sport and a jv school team sport. The school team sports were much, much, much, much, much, much, much easier to manage timewise. Again, other people's experience may vary. Club sports are a longer drive, fewer kids involved, times vary, etc. School team sports practices were right after school so it was easier for kids to walk home or form car pools.

    Simply a matter of trade-offs. Yes, some of the issues are just trade-offs. However, I think sometimes we should examine whether our own mentalities, cultural approaches, traditions are holding us back. I have watched a transformation in some areas of education in our local schools by changing mentalities. Rather than just saying, "Here's the way we do it. If it doesn't work for your kid, sucks for you", let's at least look at whether or not we can think out of the box and expand the possibilities. It may be that this is the best we as a school community can do. But in the case of school team sports, at some schools I think we can do better. I think the whole attitude that school team sports are just for the very best, sucks for the rest, and you are a whiny baby molly-coddler if you want kids to have more access is holding school communities back from practical improvements they could be making.

  • daisyinga
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would like to thank leafy02 for starting this thread, jterrilynn for stating an opposing and thoughtful viewpoint, and jakebedy for her thoughtful questions.

    This topic has made me rethink some things. I can see how over the years I haven't thought out of the box myself, or opened my mind to other people's opinions on the issue of funding school sports programs. I don't know that my opinion has changed, but I think I will at least open my mind to some other viewpoints.

    The issue of sports funding comes up with people I know due to budget cuts and taxpayer concerns. I've always been frustrated at people who want to make cuts in sports and the arts in schools. I know many people who'd like to see resources diverted from sports teams that only serve 10 people to sports or other extracurriculars that serve more. Through this conversation I realize that the goals I think the community should have maybe aren't served by using resources toward extracurriculars that only serve 10 people in a school of 3500. In most cases elite athletes in our area can go the club sports route, and maybe that is the most practical. If the pie is only so big and not going to get bigger, then maybe we do need to slice it differently.

    I don't know that I will ever be in favor of cutting the soccer team or the softball team, but at least I can better understand why some people want to go that route.

    Anyway, here's to everyone trying to reason out a solution to make our communities better.

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nice post Daisy! You know the more I read this thread the more I think there should be standard physical fitness guidelines notices to parents who wish their (never previous active) child to get involved in sports. Is there? Maybe I just don’t know about it or the parents I have talked to do not pay any attention to it. It seems like it would be less of a blow if your child doesn’t make the team if you know that you have allowed your child to become a slug. I don’t think a lot of parents think this through. In fact I personally know some that haven’t a clue. The scenario goes like this (I’m not addressing this to those who posted here) Johnny or Susie are out of shape and going through the puberty awkward stage. They do not seem to be overly popular or have great self-esteem. The solution the parent comes up with is that all this could all be solved if Johnny or Susie were to join a high school sports team…oh the glory. Sounds good! However, the parents did nothing to prepare their child for this idea. The kids can’t make it a ¼ the way around the block without becoming winded; at best they can do five to seven push-ups and ten sit-ups on a good day. They know nothing of the rules of the sport they seek. Tryouts are a bit traumatic. Johnny and Suzie do not make the team. The parent is outraged! Sports teams should be a gimme for all. It should be a glorified gym class where anyone can get in and not something you should prepare for.

    At thirteen your child needs to be brought up to the 50 to 75% or high to athletic mark in standard fitness norms. You need to start this at least a year or more before you plan on signing them up. At thirteen a guy should be around (give or take) 48 situps and a girl 40, pushups- boys 26 and girls 16. In a 12 minute run a 13 yr old guy should be around 2879 yards a girl 2100 yards. There are other things too. Don’t blame everything on the school, do your part. If the teen is not game seek other ideas.

  • daisyinga
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If I remember correctly, high school sports teams here require a physical exam with a physician or nurse practitioner.

    I know plenty of kids who weren't particularly fit but wanted to be on a high school sports team. They joined the cross country team or the swim team, and that exposure changed their attitudes and lives regarding fitness. So I applaud those kids who want to join that team and I stood on the sidelines cheering them on. Yes, that would be me who thinks as much as is practical, public high school sports teams should be a gimme for all. Not every kid has to play in the meets, but to go out there, put the uniform on and practice with the team, as much as it is practical, yes! I've seen that work plenty of times, but it has to be what the students want, not what their parents want.

    I'm just more open now to diverting tax dollars away from those sports that only serve 5 out of 3500 kids and toward things like swim team, cross country, track, etc. that will serve anybody who passes the physical and wants to get out there. The elite athletes can get their development and exposure through club teams. That's the way swimming tends to be here. For most of the best swimmers, the high school swim team is not the big deal, it's their exposure through their club at national and regional meets that's the bigger deal.

    As far as parents believing that being on a high school sports team will help their kids with their confidence and help them to connect with their school and make friends, yes, I am one of those parents. I don't believe in pushing kids who don't want to do it, but for the kid who wants it, yes.

    I think that in these days of rising obesity and increasing dropout rates, taxpayers might want to rethink underfunding sports and the arts.

    However, I know that many people hold your viewpoint. There is a pretty wide philosophical divide between the two views.

    I wonder if part of the reason for the huge gulf between our viewpoints is the sports we or our kids have played? I know when my son played baseball, there was a lot of parental frustration and anger over who played what spot, who made which team, etc. At the high school level all my experience is basically who touched the wall or who crossed the line first. Not much room for parents to argue there. Either your kid is fastest or he's not.

    So my entire high school experience is with teams that allow a lot of kids at all fitness levels. Only the best win, only the best get to go to certain meets, only the best get the glory. But everyone cheers for everyone else, regardless of who's the best. It's just a great experience!

    It's been an illuminating conversation and I'm glad we had it. Thanks for taking the time. And if leafy02 is still reading, best of luck to your daughter. I hope she loves her high school year this year, whether she makes the team or not.

  • leafy02
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you, Daisy. It was interesting to me to hear others' points of view, and people did raise some very good points I had not thought of.

    I'm not sweating bullets over DD surviving the next round of cuts for this team. Sports are very important to her, but we do have the ability to keep her involved through community teams if she doesn't make the school team. And even if she only gets to practice with the team until February, I'm sure it will help her ease into her social niche at her new school. Thank you for the kind wishes.

  • Faron79
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Wow-
    There's a hundred equally good points here!

    My DD would've loved to be on the "Varsity" VB team. She would've been one of the 4 tallest! Her 2009 HS-graduating class was over 400...
    BUT....Her "killer"-instinct just wasn't there, & privately I knew that. Just too laid-back in personality. She did get into a traveling-team, & enjoyed that. Figure-skating was her primary passion though!

    Back in the latter 70's, in my small-town ND school, most small towns had Football, etc. Some towns were combining by then, & we were one of them. Many towns still had "A, B, & C"-squads, so more kids could develop. Basketball & Football ruled the Fall & Winter world back then! Volleyball wasn't very popular yet...

    I was the tallest (6'2" & 240lbs.) guy on the football team, & almost the heaviest! "Shockingly" I was an Offensive-lineman...;-)
    Yes....the "big farm kid" stereotype was accurate here! My best friend was 6' even, but 30lbs. heavier. He played defense. During practice, not much happened when we collided...just a BIG thud...

    My point in all this reminiscing-
    Teams & available spots are what they are.
    In a large school, I may have been only an average size/ability...maybe barely on a team...
    >>> At NDSU, a couple FB-coaches said I should try out for the team! I didn't....too scared of my repaired knee-ligament from HS Sr.-year (torn MCL...)!

    In the small-town setting, I thrived in football!
    I wish many more kids now had more opportunity to be on teams, as many here have said...there's only so many $$ to go around.

    Faron

  • jterrilynn
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It’s funny you bring up the term “killer instinct” Faron. That’s a term my father still uses as a trait one needs to be good at sports. I’m not sure that is always necessary as some are just truly gifted athletes but I do think it’s true much of the time. My dad is in his seventies now but back in his youth was in track, football, baseball and later as a side hobby, golf. He was just about five seven or eight, not a tall fellow but was a solid little power house with that killer instinct and speed. He never gave a lot of thought to girl’s sports though. As a result I didn’t get any encouragement there. However, I do think his drive/instinct wore off on me or maybe got passed along in the gene pool or at least it did with me in track. I was lousy at baseball but then I really didn’t like the game to start with.

  • fourkids4us
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've found with girls, many of them are there for the social aspect in addition to their love of the sport. Unfortunately now, so many parents are pushing their kids to be a top athlete hoping for that scholarship to college. As mom of four kids who play sports, I've witnessed every different kind of parent and kid out there. My oldest (14 y/o girl) has always played sports but is not a gifted athlete. She's a decent player, but initially started playing as a social thing. She loved seeing her friends, as well as playing, but wasn't born with special talent and wasn't totally interested in working hard to develop her skills. She has played lacrosse and soccer since kindergarten, but always in a rec league. It wasn't until this past summer that it clicked that if she wanted to make the team, she'd have to work hard, and while she did (by the skin of her teeth, I'm sure), she's going to have to really work hard to develop her skills and her conditioning to continue to earn a spot on the team. However, the social aspect of being on the team has really been wonderful for her. It really helped her transition to high school, has really made her feel included in something, etc. She also realizes her limitations - she most likely will not make the lacrosse team in the spring. Lacrosse is HUGE here and if you haven't played club, most likely you won't be good enough for the team. She recognized this all on her own and said she still wants to tryout but if she doesn't make it, she wants to focus on soccer and would like to find a spring club soccer team. Unfortunately, she realized this all a little too late. We never pushed her when she was younger as we always saw her participation as mainly a social thing, but I think now she sees the benefits of being ON a h.s. team, and wishes she had worked harder when she was younger. She would never get a scholarship in any sport, and unfortunately, for many (not all) sports in h.s., even though many won't get scholarships b/c of the competition for them, the level of skill on those teams is still pretty high.

    Maybe someone mentioned this before, but does anyone remember when they used to have intramural sports? I think that is what the schools need. It would be perfect for someone like my dd, who recognizes that she is not a highly skilled player, but still wants to play, still wants to be part of a team, etc. It's too bad intramural sports seems to have fallen by the wayside, at least around here.

    My experience with my sons is sure to be different. They are both natural athletes and both have the drive and determination to want to go as far as they can. They both play club soccer, and one plays club lacrosse (other plays rec lacrosse and most likely at some point will switch to focusing on soccer and play that year round as he's not big/aggressive enough for lax). For my boys, we've had to seek out better teams for them b/c they got to a point where their skills were being hampered by playing with kids who were either out there b/c their parents made them, or they just didn't have the skill level, making it hard for the better players to continue to develop at their pace. However, by the same token, leaving their friends behind to play at a higher level isn't always what they want to do either. My older son plays basketball on his school team. It was embarrassing to watch his skill level compared to the majority of the team, some who had never played. The coach was making him play the entire game as he and one other kid scored nearly all the points for the team (which really bothered me b/c I HATED seeing the other kids being benched as this was rec and they should all be playing). We asked him if he wanted to play in a better league this year and he was adamantly against it...he said he wanted to stick with his friends. He loved playing with them and didn't care that they weren't a winning team. As his parent, I'd love to see him play more competitively but OTOH, it's not always about that....having fun and being with your friends is also something that needs to be considered (he's only 12).

    So I can see both sides of this issue. I do think there should be opportunities for any kid who wants to play sports to be able to, but I also understand the nature of JV/Varsity sports and that not all kids can or should make the team, no matter their skill level. Incidentally, someone mentioned track/cross country/swimming as a good place for kids who can't compete for the team sports. A good suggestion....my dd's friend who was cut from the soccer team, instead went out for cross country. There, they accept kids at all levels and let them develop at their own pace. Same with swimming. I'm actually trying to talk my dd into doing swimming this winter (she used to do summer swim team) but she's convinced it's all these fantastic swimmers and doesn't get that those kids aren't on the h.s. team...they all swim for our very competitive club team here. I know she would have fun...I know the coach...and it would be great way for her to keep in shape for spring sports.

    Interesting conversation and nice to hear people debate both sides without it getting heated!

  • gail618
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My two sons attended a very large school - 4,500 students, but it is a middle school and a HS. Sounds horrible but they do an amazing job of making it feel like a much smaller school. It's an excellent public school and we were very happy there. My older son decided to play football his freshman year. He had never played football but is a sports junkie so he understands the game very well. At this super large school, everyone is allowed on the football team. You may never end up setting foot on the field during a game, but everyone practices and suits up for each game. It is funny how large the bench is. After playing one season, he knew he would probably never actually play, and wasn't willing to invest so much time knowing this. It is a HUGE time commitment - all summer, so many hours. He wanted to be surfing in the summer! But many of his friends continued on for all of their four years, and there were many that didn't get much playing time. But they stuck with it because of the comraderie and it kept them in great shape. I believe they had quite a few coaches on the team, and I'm sure the better players got more attention from the coaches and didn't suffer from having so many other players. Track is the same at their school, everyone can join. I'm sure everyone doesn't get to compete in all of the events, but they all get to be on the team. I think most sports are like this at their school except for basketball and baseball. Crew, lacrosse, are all open to everyone. And this is a super-competitive area where many of the students have private trainers. But it seems to work well. The elite athletes don't seems to get dragged down, and other kids get to be a part of the experience. Some of the teams, such as lacrosse, are club teams so the parents do have to pay more money for those teams. Also, in our area, there is an extensive community sports league which a lot of the kids prefer to play in because some kids just want to do it for fun without the stress. Football, baseball, rugby, soccer, you name it there is a league for it. Both of my boys played community basketball since they were in second grade. It's pretty hard making the basketball team in a school as large as theirs. But they would rather have played on the community team - it was with all of their friends and it was fun! And if you are good enough, the community league also has travel teams for the better players. We did that for a while with my second son but he hated it. Went back to the "house" league after one season. They also both ended up coaching community teams, which you can do when you are in high school - they coached second or third grade teams and they loved it and also earned community service hours. My older son, at college now, referees intramural sports games. I think he's reffed softball and basketball. If they hadn't had the opportunities that they had, they may not be nearly as active as they are now, even though they are not elite athletes. And coaching little kids was a great learning experience. I agree that there needs to be something for kids who just want to keep active and enjoy playing sports but may not be good enough for or don't have an interest in a super-competitive setting.