Once upon a time formal evening meant white tie and tails and informal evening meant black tie. In today's world, I think Formal Attire Requested probably translates to PLEASE, for the love of all we hold dear, comb your hair and don't wear jeans. In all seriousness, I think you will see a few in black tie,lots of dark suits and a smattering of business casual on men. Hemlines will be everywhere.

riosamba,
oooh, that's funny and I think you hit the nail on the head.

dlm,
please report back after the wedding and tell us about the difference between what the hosts hoped to get and what people actually wore.

I'm sure I told this story before but here goes again...in 1992 I attended a wedding where the bride wore a beautiful gown that I know cost $1000 - I thought that was a lot of money then and I'd still think that today. I'm not into bridal gowns but I have to say it was stunning. The reception was in a fire hall, not that there's anything wrong with that but some guests came in shorts! I thought "come on people, put in some effort - look at how nice the bride looks."

Men - dark suit, long sleeved dress shirt and tie
Women - something from the "better dresses" dept.

Black tie indicates tuxedo for the men, and cocktail or longer length dresses for the women. I think a pretty LBD would work in this situation as well.

Sadly, more and more people have to note "formal" attire on wedding reception invitations, since many people come dressed as if they didn't bother to change from their gardening clothes. Pretty much what riosamba refers to.

Given the time and location, I'd say that suits & cocktail dresses would be appropriate.

When DD was married, we just verbally told people it was formal attire...meaning NO JEANS & T-SHIRTS! I specifically had to tell this to my SIL, because that was exactly what she'd planned to wear! We never expected black tie, and we were very, very pleased to see that all guests were appropriately attired for the event (late afternoon/evening at a ballroom in a historic opera house).

I think if they meant black tie, they'd have said black tie.

What if it had said semi-formal? Formal would definitely have me picking up the phone.

Formal as in black tie these days or white tail and tails is normally after six o'clock. I suspect riosamba is exactly correct (and quite funny as well-I am still giggling) in her reasoning on this!

I so appreciate your thoughts - and humor! Sadly, riosamba probably nailed in on the head but I'm still hoping the unsaid "PLEASE, for the love of all we hold dear, comb your hair and don't wear jeans" would only be needed for the couple's poverty stricken graduate student friends and not contemporaries of their parents! But, that may well be wishful thinking.....

I will call my friends when they return from vacation to clarify. If they confirm that it means black tie I will be hard pressed to get my DH in on this - I'm betting we'll suddenly have out of town plans ;-)

A conversation about how people are dressing now for business would be equally helpful to me.

Put forth a little effort also applies!

I was pleasantly surprised on our recent trip to NOLA to see some people in shorts turned away from the restaurant where we were waiting to be seated. DH would not have been happy after I had made him wear a coat and tie if they had been seated (nor would I have been).

DLM2000, why would your husband object to black tie? It is just a suit. Or is it the idea of rental wear, as perhaps like my DH he doesn't own a tux?

I guess a tux to me is no big deal, with two DS's who, being in orchestra, have owned tuxes since their freshman year in high school. They certainly clean up nicely! LOL

I agree with everything that has been said. I am sure they are trying to get people to not be embarrassed showing up at an elegant downtown location in jeans and their best Bears sweatshirt! So they wrote formal, which really does usually suggest tux or other evening wear. So a suit for men, nice cocktail wear for women.

I will say that they committed a faux pas in providing a registry site for gifts. That is fine in a shower invitation, but never in a wedding invitation.

I just tell a dude to "Man-up" if He whines about a suit/Tux.

Simple as that.

Kee-rist (long "I" sound there...) I hate whiney guys who "can't wear" a suit!!!
My wedding was Black Tuxes, etc. I had Black as well, with a Red cummerbund & bow-tie. Groomsmen had Black cummerbunds & bow-ties. Bridesmaids had Carnation Red dresses.

Sorry! Guess I'm ranting here....

I just have no time for people who can't dress-up once in a while....

Faron

You're a good guy, Faron. :-)

I recently attended a "formal attire" wedding in the New York area, evening event. Very high end affair-well beyond my budget type of wedding. The women wore either long or street length dressy dresses and the men mostly wore dark suits, some in a tux but I would say other than the immediate family the majority wore suits. The "old fashioned rule" of not wearing black to a wedding is gone. HTH.

Les he's not objecting to a suit and tie, it's the tux thing and, yes, partly because he doesn't own one and would have to rent. He also says that if he showed up in a tux, no one would pay attention to the bride. Of course I can't let him upstage her ;-)

As for the registry information, that's only the tip of the iceberg in the faux pas arena. I'm trying not to be a total old fogy but it's not easy - I have my mother's and grandmother's voices in my head! I know the world is changing and am fully on board with some easing of the old rules but some things make me cringe. The bridal shower is being hosted by the mothers of the bride and groom at the grooms childhood home - could't they provide the financial means for the party if necessary but put another name on the invitation as host? The invitation to this formal wedding arrived with stick on computer labels. If you're having a formal wedding, don't use a website for RSVPs!!!! Isn't that like mixing metaphors? They give the website but also include a response card (another pet peeve of mine but I know I'm hopelessly overruled on that one) and envelope but it's not addressed or stamped!!! The paper is there so this isn't a save a tree issue. If it's a money saving issue, it's wildly inconsistent given the other elements of the wedding. Formal attire, downtown hotel (and parking rates!) a 3 week honeymoon to India and you can't address or stamp the reply envelopes? I honestly don't know why I'm so bothered by this but obviously I am! Off my soapbox now!

I don't believe that using modern technology, such as an RSVP website, is inconsistent with a formal wedding. Formal isn't the same as antiquated.

The stick-on computer labels are tacky, considering they could have run the envelopes through the printer and eliminated the labels.

I agree that renting a tuxedo for a wedding as a guest is kind of silly. If you own one, fine. My DH owns 2 - one black (bought when we got married - he didn't want to wear rented clothes), one white (bought at a riduculously low price at a sale at a designer outlet (can't remember name of designer now)). He almost didn't buy it. I was like, are you crazy? Bought it and never regretted it. We used to cruise a lot, so it got worn a lot. But, if you don't, I think a dark suit is perfectly acceptable.

I understand the website for RSVPs as an option. If I were responding, I would do that before mailing the card. I do find the not addressing and stamping the return envelope strange. And the stick on labels is just silly. Like someone else said, just run them through the printer. I mean I did that for my DD's sweet 16. Can't imagine using stick on labels for a wedding invite.

I am curious - why would it be necessary to put someone else as the host of the shower? Why is it tacky to have the couples moms as host? Of course, I hate wedding showers! I don't understand them. You're having a wedding in a couple of weeks and I will be giving a very nice gift at the wedding. Why do I need to give another gift a couple weeks before that? All it does is reduce the size of the wedding gift I give. But, I must be alone in this thinking because everyone has a wedding shower (except me!).

Jill, traditionally, showers are not to be given by a relative since it would appear to be the bride/family inviting you to donate to the cause-"okay, whom should we invite to give us more stuff?". Friends should host showers so it seems more like, "Oh wouldn't it be fun to all get together, have a party, and surprise Susie with some gifts to help her set up housekeeping/start her marriage with beautiful lingerie/etc.

Of course, that was before brides registered at every store in the book so they might be assured of getting everything they want and not what it gives someone joy to shop for and give. Don't get me started on thank you notes which are no longer a social grace that show gratitude and appreciation, but are more of a minimal "Thank you for the ____. I really like it or we can really use it" sort of thing. I have heard of showers where guests are asked to address the envelopes for their own thank you notes (was that here a while back?). Seriously, if you are so busy that you can't possibly address your own envelopes, skip the shower. Same goes for response cards with unaddressed, unstamped envelopes. I would probably write my own formal response and mail it (Mr. and Mrs. So-andSo accept with pleasure...").

Rant over. ;)

jillinnj I agree that gifting at showers and weddings can be redundant. I suppose it makes sense if the wedding is to be a small one then shower invitations can include friends/extended family who will not be at the ceremony/reception. But the reality is, most people who are invited to a shower (or showers plural!) are invited to the wedding so it isn't for that reason, obviously. As for the hosting issue, that's considered a no-no because it makes it appear that the moms are requesting gifts for their children since the purpose of a shower is to gift the bride or couple. It's different on the wedding invitation with the bride's or both b&g parents as hosts because as Les mentioned, there should be no inclusion of registry or gift mentioned in the invitation or enclosures. These are old "rules" and although I don't know why they began, there are generally logical reasons behind this kind of thing. Times do change and some rules may no longer be logical but are held for tradition, others segue into newer practices.

have heard of showers where guests are asked to address the envelopes for their own thank you notes (was that here a while back?)

Yup, that was here. Last shower I attended was set up like that.

I don't even like stick on labels for Christmas cards. And pre-printed signatures are even worse. Only saving grace is when there's a note included.

I don't have a real issue with the choice of a website for RSVP - it is convenient, and perhaps decreases the issue of people not getting around to mailing back their response. I suppose they included the printed one for those who don't use a computer (older guests like my mom would be - never used a computer in her life, never will). But the response card envelope should be addressed and stamped (that was clearly a money-saving thing - why stamp them if people are going to use the website, and so waste the stamp).

I did not have any bridal showers, either, at my insistence. I think it is trolling for gifts, pure and simple. Showers were designed to be a chance for an intimate group of friends to share in the excitement of the wedding, and give some personal gifts to the bride. They were never hosted by family, for the reason mentioned above in another response. Now I have been to some that are like a pre-wedding reception, and people are giving place settings of china or other things that used to be considered a nice wedding gift.

And you never invite someone to a shower who isn't invited to the wedding - that only makes it even MORE a case of simply collecting gifts.

Shower guests addressing their own thank you notes is the height of laziness, period. Someone has those addresses - they got the invitations to the people, didn't they?

The old rules are there for a reason - so that people don't have to wonder what to do or how. They were set up to make people comfortable, not to torture them.

Lately I've been hearing more and more about post office closures and talk that in the not-too-distant future, the entire service could be a thing of the past. I think we'll be seeing a lot more electronic communication, such as the aforementioned wedding RSVP, as the trend gathers momentum. Before long, I can envision that nobody will ever have need of a stamp or fine stationery, and that makes me a little bit sad.

Sorry ... sidetracked.

auntjen: No more handwritten letters, notes or invitations -- nor any need for fine papers, stamps or even pens. Very very sad.

And asking GUESTS to address their OWN thank-you notes???? ((I can JUST imagine how my mum would have reacted to that idea! Sheesh -- the thunder-and-lighting show would have been amazing! LOL!!!))

Yes -- another vote to say that formal means a dark suit, tie and long-sleeved shirt for men -- and cocktail dresses for women.

Aren't there times you wish couples would just Skype their wedding? :)

I thought this was a good answer. From theknot.com:

Formal, Black Tie Optional, Black Tie Invited

Him: If not a tuxedo, a dark suit and tie.
Her: A long dress, a really dressy suit, or something cocktail-length (but still formal). Glamorous makeup and dramatic jewelry and hair are appropriate.

Here is a link that might be useful: theknot.com

"Aren't there times you wish couples would just Skype their wedding? :)"

Yup.

We were invited to a wedding of the son of a dear friend. The invitations were very informal and gave a website for responding. The website had a variety of glitches. I notified the parent with whom we were the closest. Later, we received formal invitations and traditional response inserts. Still later, the bride discovered that she had not executed all of the web steps necessary before responses could be registered at the website. What an awkward mess.
Also, I'm not thrilled with the shower thing, either. And what about when you've helped with the wedding and the shower and given elegant gifts for both, and found out that the couple separated after three months and divorced after six? And overheard the "bride" declare, "At least I got a lot of cool stuff." Off point, but really!

Perhaps the shower guests should write their own thank yous also and save the bride that hassle.

"hey give the website but also include a response card (another pet peeve of mine but I know I'm hopelessly overruled on that one) and envelope but it's not addressed or stamped!!!"

Actually, according to Miss Manners the invitation shouldn't even *have* a response card, much less one that is pre-addressed and stamped. The technically correct method is for the guest to take a sheet of his or her monogrammed informal paper and write a personal response indicating that s/he will be delighted to attend.

The pre-printed, pre-stamped response cards are (again according to MM) simply an acknowledgement of the rudeness that is rampant today, and an effort to encourage people to Do the Right Thing, ie respond!

Interesting how the wheel has turned completely, so that the alternative to the rude alternative...is now rude :).

Ann

Ann that;s exactly what I was referring to. I was taught to write a personal response in the same format as the invitation, even though response cards have been around far longer than my need to respond to invitations. After many questions from friends as to why I didn't use the enclosed card, I gave in and have used the cards at least some of the time. But not without a whispered apology to my mom.

I was discussing this thread with my 80 yo Mum. She said back in the day people knew enough to response and it was on their own stationary. She was shocked the first time she received an invitation with a response card. Seemed like a slap in the face, like she wouldn't know enough to rsvp.

But nowadays, it's hard to get anyone to rsvp to anything. So whatever works - email, response card, smoke signal.

I do use the response card but always add my own handwritten comment. The handwritten notes & rsvp cards with comments were such a treat to open when I got married so I always pay it forward, so to speak. Some brides probably thing "whatever, how many will be attending?".

I don't think of myself as very sentimental but I did save a few wedding invitations that I found special for various reasons. It still makes me happy to see them when I come across them. It seems sad to think that by the time my 4 yo niece will be marrying I might be informed by text.

Thanks everyone for the explanation on why it's not cool for the moms to give the shower. That makes sense to me.

And I totally get the bridal party and other close friends wanting to do something special for the bride. They took me out for a very nice lunch a week or so before the wedding, but I made it clear they were not to give me gifts. It was nice to spend some quality time with a few friends because that is often not possible during the craziness of the wedding. I think that's very nice and in keeping with the sentiment. I just don't get the "trolling for gifts" as Les said.

I found that very interesting about the "not cool for Mom/relative to give the shower". It's the norm here and I don't see anything wrong it. Although, most seem to have the sense not to invite people that aren't close. If a friend is in charge of it, they usually need to talk with someone in the family anyhow to get more info on who else to invite/addresses etc.

I don't like the address the thank you envelope thing though. That happened at the baby shower for my sister in law. Everyone seemed to think it was the best idea ever while I could barely write my name on the envelope. I have no idea what SIL thought.

Well, I attended the bridal shower today so had the perfect opportunity to ask what was expected and approached the groom's sister who is also the maid of honor. She rolled her eyes and said (conspiratorially) "Everyone is asking and they made it really confusing." meaning the bride and groom's choice of words on the invitation. But riosamba hit the nail on the head because it's just their insurance policy that no one shows up for the wedding in jeans and workboots as one woman did for the shower today. Tuxes & long gowns not required, but there may be some. Not on us!