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jan_in_wisconsin

Next Door Neighbor Installing Outdoor Wood Boiler - WWYD

jan_in_wisconsin
9 years ago

Our next door neighbor wants to install an outdoor wood burning water boiler heater thing. We are very concerned about the effects it could have on air quality.

There are no ordinances in our area, though we live in a rural subdivision on several acres. Our neighbor would be installing this within about 50 feet of our home. The neighbor's ranch house sits on a much lower lot than our two-story on a hill.

Our neighbor asked us if it was okay and my hubby said we'd look into it more, since we don't know a lot about it. After researching, we're both really concerned. We think the proximity to our home is too close and that due to the much lower lot elevation, the smokestack couldn't be placed high enough. Our neighbor is an engineer, and it sounds like he will be constructing it himself.

Would you be concerned, and if so, why would you do?

Comments (62)

  • hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What is his goal? Save money on hot water? Help him find an alternative, make it win-win: he saves $, and you can continue to breathe.

  • kswl2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would prevent it by any legal means available.

  • maddielee
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would ask him what the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) regulations are for the system he hopes to install.

    ML

    Here is a link that might be useful: EPA - article

  • cyn427 (z. 7, N. VA)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Maddielee beat me to it. I would look into violations of the Clean Air rules. Big guns, but still... Most definitely let him know what a nuisance it would be AND that you have concerns about health issues connected to the smoke (which will contain particulate that you will be breathing in!).

    Our neighbor built an outdoor pizza oven and the smoke from that is maddening at times (I also like open doors and windows). Your situation would be SO much worse! Also, even if you aren't in city limits, counties also require permits for almost everything it seems.

    Let us know what happens.

  • maire_cate
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You can also check to see if there is a local community organization with an environmental focus.

    We've had a number of environmental issues in the small town where we have a vacation home and I've become somewhat active with a local citizen's group. I'm amazed at the talent and resources displayed by these 'regular' citizens.

    There's strength in numbers and while this may seem like an isolated concern there may be others in your area with the same worries.

  • arcy_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our neighbor has one. I have not experienced any of the fear you are guessing COULD happen. This particular neighbor is very in-tune with the organic farming people and living chemical free. Leave him be, your fears will all go up in smoke.

  • jan_in_wisconsin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    From what I have researched, there doesn't seem to be much of a permit process. He has to check with the local fire chief, which he has already done.

    Wisconsin is apparently the second highest state in the nation for sales of these types of units, and yet, we have little regulation of them. Check this out from the Wisconsin DNR website:
    ********************************************
    Complaints, ordinances and regulations
    The DNR and Department of Health Services have limited ability to address outdoor wood boiler (OWB) related problems because OWBs are not regulated by the state.

    Complaints
    Citizen complaints are handled on a case by case basis depending on the community where the OWB is located and the nature of the grievance.

    As a first step, citizens should contact local government officials to see if there is an OWB ordinance for their area. Where there is no local ordinance, direct complaints about the burning of materials such as garbage, plastic and recyclables in OWBs to DNR. For health concerns due to smoke inhalation (for example, if a home is routinely overcome with smoke or if asthma is triggered by the use of an OWB), contact your local health department.

    Government authorities may facilitate voluntary compliance by:
    contacting the OWB operator about the complaint;
    reviewing proper wood-burning practices with the operator; or
    checking for proper stack height so that smoke will not impact neighbors.

    In communities that have existing OWB ordinances, it is easier for officials to handle complaints because they can write enforcement letters by referring to the ordinance sections being violated.

    Ordinances
    By adopting ordinances, local authorities can proactively manage OWBs. The DNR has developed a guidance document and model ordinance for local communities interested in regulating the installation and use of OWBs, as well as outdoor burning and the burning of refuse.

    Regulations
    Although the EPA has regulations for reducing pollution from residential indoor stoves, furnaces, and fireplace inserts, there are currently no Federal or Wisconsin standards regulating the residential use of OWBs. The EPA offers Burn Wise [exit DNR], which has links to state and local agencies that are working to reduce emissions from OWBs.

    The EPA is considering rule revisions that would regulate OWBs by establishing emission limits but these are not expected to be in place until mid 2011, at the earliest.
    **********************************

    It doesn't appear there have been any rule revisions for the EPA stuff, because I can't find them anywhere.

    From the above, it looks like the health dept is an option, but that would happen after it is constructed and causing issues.

    My DH did voice his concern to the neighbor who said he would reconsider, but at the same time, seemed disappointed/irritated. And, I heard some sawing going on over there yesterday. :o(

    If you want to see an idea of what these are like, check out the video link.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Outdoor Wood Water Boiler Pollution

  • eandhl
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I am sincere in my question, not trying to be antagonistic. I know a number of people that heat their homes with wood stoves. I have never heard of complaints, what is the difference?

  • lazy_gardens
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I know a number of people that heat their homes with wood stoves. I have never heard of complaints, what is the difference?

    The wood stoves sold now have a catalytic converter to minimize wood smoke ... these OWBs do not.

    I see a business opportunity for a really efficient, pellet-fed boiler :)

  • samual54
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Outdoor wood boilers can only reach a relatively high level of efficiency if they deploy thermal storage. Basically, the fire burns hot and continuous while heating a large volume of water which is subsequently stored in an insulated container. The water is then used to heat the home throughout the day/night. In essence, the OWB uses one burn cycle to heat the water then is not used again until the water reaches a set temperature. This process eliminates the closed damper mode problem as explained below.

    Catalytic combustors cannot be used with an OWB because they require a high temperature fire to sustain the chemical reaction needed to to burn the smoke. Since OWBs cycle on and off based on heat demand from the home, the temp is always in a state of flux. In other words, when the home no longer calls for heat the damper closes on the OWB depriving the fire of oxygen and hence cooling the fire. There has been attempts to utilize catalytic combustors with OWBs but all have failed. One company even added a heating element in the chimney to try and sustain the temperature needed but that kinda defeats the purpose of burning wood when you have to pay for electricity to keep the element hot throughout the winter.

    Although the newer models burn more efficiently than the older units they use secondary air to achieve a higher efficiency. That said, to achieve a secondary burn, again, a high temp is needed. And again cycling precludes this from happening a majority of the time. In order for a newer model to work as advertised, the OWB must be matched to the square footage of the building calling for heat, the outside temp must be relatively constant, and dry wood must be used. How many of you live in a climate where the temp stays constant throughout the winter? During early Spring and late Fall people continue to use these devices and because the home does not need heat as frequent as during the middle of a cold winter the unit sits in closed damper mode a large percentage of the time belching out sickening dense smoke when the damper opens from time-to-time. This is some of what dealers don't tell potential buyers of an OWB. Manufacturers are notorious for misleading advertising. Unfortunately, the neighbor pays the price in reduced property values and a life of living in hell.

    Another very common problem is most people purchase OWB's over-sized to heat additional building which may or may not be used all the time ( outside pole barn) or they simply oversize them with an expectation of installing another building in the future. Bottom-line if the building(s) calling for heat do not constantly call for heat the damper closes smoldering the fire and hence cannot sustain a secondary burn. Again, OWBs can only run efficient if the fire continues to burn hot. When the damper again opens, the fire is energized and burns the creosote that accumulated on the internal metal surfaces during the closed damper mode creating smoke, odor, and particulates. Exacerbating the problem is cold smoke sinks after exiting the chimney. This is why added chimney does not solve the smoke problem. Think of a hot air balloon. When the pilot adds heat the balloon rises when the air inside the balloon cools it sinks, this is the same principle of how a OWB acts during operation. In fact, the higher the chimney the colder the smoke gets as it ascends based on ambient air temperature. Manufacturers' used added chimney height as a possible cure to overcome some local governments' effort to ban OWBs, essentially playing on their ignorance of the science of chimneys.

    This short essay explains the dilemma of OWBs. Unfortunately the Heath, Patio, and Barbecue Association is a powerful lobby and uses its clout to convince law makers not to pass laws protecting families' from the health effects associated with large volume of smoke. Keep in mind, a typical wood burner installed inside a home is designed to heat a few rooms OWB's on the other hand are designed to heat whole homes and out-buildings. The firebox in a OWB is large holding over 300 pounds of wood. All in all it's an incinerator smoking out entire neighborhoods.

    This post was edited by samual54 on Sun, Aug 31, 14 at 8:34

  • jan_in_wisconsin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Samual, Thanks SO much for that explanation. You articulated so well just what the issues are with these things. I'm just sick about this. I'm very careful with and concerned about chemicals.

    How can people be so inconsiderate? We live in an upper middle class neighborhood.

    Wisconsin winters are notoriously frigid, and heating costs are high. Last winter, there was a serious propane shortage in the state. But that's the way it is here. We pay our heating bills and thank the heavens that we don't have hurricanes.

  • jan_in_wisconsin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Forgot to mention that in addition to the air particles, things can get worse when some people burn plastics and other junk instead of clean dry wood. There is really little oversight.

  • waiting_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Suggest that he capture the smoke to fuel an internal combustion engine (gasification) to power a generator. He could probably generate enough electricity for his house AND yours (win/win).

    Barring that, some outdoor wood boiler designs are more efficient and cleaner burning than others. If you can't prevent him from building it, work with him to build one that produces the least amount of smoke and ash.

    gary

    Here is a link that might be useful: Backyard Wood Powered Generator

  • waiting_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Update to the first gassification article.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Update

  • LucyStar1
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here is a story from a Connecticut newspaper:

    Smoke from outdoor wood furnaces burns neighbors

    The day that someone in your neighborhood decides to install an outdoor wood furnace is the day that you will forever regret.

    These smoke-belching devices will take away one of your basic rights ---- the right to breath reasonably clean air. Unfortunately, that's not a right listed in the U.S. Constitution, so when your neighbor fires up his outdoor wood furnace, you're pretty much on your own.

    Just ask Suzan Converse of Maple Street in Weston, who has lived in a cloud of wood smoke since she and her husband and two kids moved there five years ago.

    "That's why the previous owners moved ---- and, of course, they didn't tell us," she says.

    She says that the smoke from her across-the-street neighbor's OWF seeps into her house, despite her best efforts at keeping her windows and doors closed. She can't hang her wash on the line. Her kids can't play outside. When spring arrives, she can't open the windows. And she, along with her husband and two children, have suffered from various upper-respiratory illnesses from the omnipresent smoke.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Outdoor wood furnaces

    This post was edited by LucyStar1 on Thu, Aug 28, 14 at 23:45

  • 4boys2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This poor man that Jan posted prior has been filming (and fighting) the neighbor for 7 years or so.
    Here's the video where he shows the difference between stoves and an OWB.

    Here is a link that might be useful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TTfm6l3j1Pk&list=UU4_2P91x5Odcec_7PB684uw

  • jan_in_wisconsin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    After reading everything I could get my hands on, I sure hope this outdoor wood burner never comes to be.

    I am stunned there are so few restrictions in this state. Forced to breathe preventable polluted air.

  • kswl2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I would alert,your other neighbors to the situation, perhaps show them the YouTube video posted above, and warn them that when the wind changes it might not just be your problem.

    Our housekeeper had one of these contraptions for several years. Her husband installed it, and they were told by the salesman that it was really a trash burner, not just a wood burner. I don't think people realize the sheer volume of wood necessary to keep these things stoked, Anyway, HK and fam just tossed their PLASTIC bags full of UNSORTED trash into that thing as fuel in addition to wood.......one granddaughter developed asthma that winter, seemingly "out of the blue," and they all had upper respiratory infections, bronchitis, HK had pleurisy, irritated eyes, etc. A few winters later the symptoms magically abated when the husband was too arthritic to chop enough wood for the boiler and they stopped using it.

  • ilovemytrees
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "How can people be so inconsiderate? We live in an upper middle class neighborhood"

    Wow. SO much I want to say..

    People move out to rural areas so that they don't have people telling them what to do. If you chose to live in a rural area, then you have to deal with all that comes with it. Unless you want to pay your neighbor's property taxes, I doubt you have any right to dictate the use of his property.

    Move to the city, and live within an HOA, so that you can live among your own kind, you know, the upper middle class people who are simply too good to be inconsiderate.

  • jan_in_wisconsin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I did not mean to sound snobbish at all but realize that's how I came across. That was not my intention.

    We live in a subdivision with covenants, although this is a rural area. This neighbor lives right next door, just as close as a house in town. These outdoor wood burning units are banned in neighboring towns for that reason.

    While it may be legal, that doesn't mean it is considerate to install. We chose a subdivision with covenants to protect our property value, but this issue is not addressed (I'm still looking into this though.) In the covenants. My comment you quoted was meant in regard to the concern for property value. These outdoor wood burners, in addition to air pollution, can reduce property values for surrounding homes. Also, some older farm homes never had modern heating systems installed, so these wood burners are replacements for indoor wood burners. But again, these units are not common in closely placed homes in neighborhoods. Our neighbor's house is only ten years old and has an energy efficient heating system installed.

    I've seen these burners out on farm properties with many acres, but never so close to a neighbor. I'm shocked there are no setback rules related to other homes. Our neighbor wants this installed just 50 feet from our home. Recommended guidelines are hundreds of feet. Also, it is not possible for him to have the smokestack high enough.

    It will affect our air quality, visibility across our property, property value, and possibly even our health. Sealed windows and doors do not stop the smoke from entering the house. Smoke ruins things.

    I'm upset about this, and stand by my statement that this is completely inconsiderate given the fact that this unit cannot even possibly be placed within recommended guidelines on our neighbor's property. My husband and son both have asthma, and our neighbor knows this.

    Were the roles reversed, I could never make a decision to do something that would so negatively impact my neighbors just to save myself some money.

  • jan_in_wisconsin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Again, I did not mean to imply that the virtue of being considerate has anything to do with economic means. I don't believe that, and it's not what I meant.

  • Jasdip
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    My God, this thread has piqued my curiousity because I have never heard of such a thing. Those videos that forboys posted are incredible. They seem to be prevalent in MN. I live in Canada and this is the first I've heard of these OWB.

    Jan, I hope with all my heart you can get this stopped. Those poor people in the videos are suffering, and the proof is there for everyone to see.

    Can you show these videos to the authorities?? The condensation and mold in the homes, because of not being able to even use an air-to-air exchanger is beyond imaginable. Anyone who says that these are no different than an indoor fireplace/woodstove is lying.

  • franktank232
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Jan---i'm near lacrosse, i've seen these things in action on cold winter mornings:

    not my pic, but gives others the idea of what will happen:

    These things should be outlawed unless you are out in the country on 40 acres with no one around you. There is one on the other end of town that during the winter, i've driven through that area and it was like a house was on fire. The problem is some of these people will burn anything in them..wet wood, treated wood, railroad ties, garbage? who knows...they are smoke dragons.

    I'd tell him to get a woodstove. Waaaay less wood to stack, buy, haul... other then that... tell him to burn seasoned, dry wood...or...can you get a realtor out there quick? Time to move! Even if you got your township to put an ordinance on them, he might get grandfathered in? (not saying you could get an ordinance implemented).

    If you are upwind (say you sit north or nw of his smoke dragon) or west of it...you would be better off. In Wisconsin, the coldest winds come out of the NW/W/N...although in the spring, you can get cold days with strong east winds. South winds are rarer in winter and usually end up being ""mild"", but in that kind of weather he might be tempted to throw some wet mossy logs on because not much heat is called for..the smoke dragon will be belching big time...

    Inversions will be your worst enemy (look up what happens in Fairbanks, AK during cold spells)...the air gets caught near the surface and doesn't go anywhere....horrible air quality. You'll probably have to go stay in a hotel in the Dells...or move to Florida until spring arrives.

    Good luck...

  • jan_in_wisconsin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    jasdip - Boy, I'm surprised these outdoor wood burners aren't prevalent in Canada. Maybe there are regulations, and for good reason.

    frank - Hello, fellow Wisconsinite! Thanks for posting the picture. It gives a great visual of how far the smoke travels, as well as how it hangs low in the cold temperatures. Our home is on the north side of our neighbor's, but with the close proximity, the direction of the wind is less relevant. Plus, as I mentioned, our neighbor's property is at the base of the hill our home is on, so rising smoke will not be our friend.

    We are presenting some sample ordinances to our town board, but I doubt it will go anywhere. The issue is there are properties in our town with many acres of land that could accommodate these things. The properties in our subdivision are in the neighborhood of 2.5 - 7 acres. We have 3 acres, but the placement of our home, relative to our neighbor's is fairly close. So, we could hope for an ordinance that would require a decent setback that would be harder to achieve on properties close to one another.

    Still, some states have banned these things altogether, and you can see why.

    I am posting a link to the Freedom of Air - Public Awareness of Outdoor Wood Boilers website, if anyone is interested in reading more about this issue.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Freedom of Air - Public Awareness of Outdoor Wood Boilers

  • samual54
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Because of the amount of smoke generated people a quarter mile away will still be affected by the smoke, depending on wind direction of course. I'll post a few pictures showing some aerial view of the smoke generated from an OWB. You tell me if 1000 feet is far enough away.

  • samual54
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Picture # 2

  • samual54
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Last one:

  • whatwhat
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lovemytrees - agree so much. We live in the country and I value my freedom with my property.

    Jan, I do understand your concern. I have 5 kids and would be ticked if smoke was rolling through my yard and into my kids lungs on the daily. If he is an engineer, he is most likely very cognisant that the most effecient, low maintenance units are those constructed to minimize smoke. That also creates an almost ashless system. I've included a link for some of the nicer systems. Many ways to do it. Obviously can go cheap and have a smoke stack, which majority of people do. Mainly because they don't know how to make an effecient system and it is cheaper. But again if you live in a nice area, he is an engineer, he isn't going to construct something that wouldn't be a reflection of his degree. Most engineers are anal perfectionists. Best thing to do, is something people don't do anymore, talk to him. Tell him your concerns and listen to his ideas.

    As far as stopping him, honestly you can't. So work with him, talk to him. The fact he asked you in the first place, sounds like he is a pretty nice guy. I wouldn't have even bothered to ask your opinion. If you gave it and didn't like it, I would give you the option to pay the difference in my heating bill. But thats just me, and i am not very nice.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Smokeless Heat

  • whatwhat
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Also, as far as "I don't think people realize the sheer volume of wood necessary to keep these things stoked," on an effcient system, one to two logs daily, not huge logs either, will keep a properly installed effecient system running.

    This post was edited by whatwhat on Sat, Aug 30, 14 at 12:23

  • jan_in_wisconsin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Samual,

    Thanks for the images. They are really helpful in appreciating the effects of the smoke. The aerial views are especially eye-opening.

    As awareness about caring for the environment increases, more laws and regulations about these sorts of things would be expected. A different neighbor of ours said he looked into heating his workshop with an OWB, but he decided against it after reading and learning more about it.

    I'm all for freedom, but when someone else's freedom to install an OWB causes a host of others to lose their freedom to breathe clean air (and all the health effects and personal property damage that comes with it), there is a problem.

    Beyond the town ordinance, I'm also researching the restrictions our subdivision covenants have in place.

    And there's always the hope that our neighbor will reconsider installing the OWB.

  • whatwhat
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm not really sure why no one on here hasn't mentioned smokeless systems. Here is another one. Jan instead of doing all the research for how to stop him and listening to the negatives of the old school systems. Do some research on the new systems.

    Also the decorating forum isnt where you will find the most knowledgeable opinions on the matter. Another forum, familiar with alternative heat methods or even construction, might be more appropriate for getting opinions on the matter. Should repost there.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Smokeless outdoor wood furnace

    This post was edited by whatwhat on Sat, Aug 30, 14 at 11:31

  • kswl2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    whatwhat, you both misquoted and misspelled what I said.

  • whatwhat
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You are right, your quote was originally much better than my misspelled and inaccurately quoted one. Guess I was more interested in the misconception of wood needed to power one of these systems, than the quote itself. Should have just not included the quote. Thank you for letting me know. It has been corrected.

  • ilovemytrees
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ok, so those pictures change everything.

    I had no idea what you would be dealing with. Yes, yes, definitely speak up, do whatever you must, but do everything you can to encourage your neighbor not to do this. Good luck!

  • jan_in_wisconsin
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What what, your point about the smokeless systems are well taken. Unfortunately, that is not the type of system our neighbor will be installing. Honestly, I've never even seen a smokeless unit in this area, but the smoking type are prevalent.

    We have spoken with our neighbor about our concerns, as I have mentioned. He said he will consider our concerns but seems to still be moving forward with his plans to install.

    You are right that he doesn't have to get our permission or talk to us at all, and if the only thing that matters is his heating bill, why should he? But as members of a community and neighborhood, shouldn't the impact our decisions have on others matter too?

    It's interesting to me that you support our neighbor's rights to install, but discourage my right to take action to preserve the clean air we currently breathe. The smokeless system is not the type that will be installed, so what am I supposed to do?

    I'm sorry you think i'm posting in the wrong place. This is a conversation board, and I value the wisdom, support, good grace, and common sense from a group of fantastic people who also cherish the places they call home. They've never once let me down, and this is no exception.

  • arcy_gw
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The pictures are dramatic but the snow makes me wonder how much of what is seen is only the difference in the air temperatures not actually SMOKE? Wood burning fireplaces are being discontinued in many areas over smoke and tree saving issues. You for sure are not alone in your fears. My REALITY is your fears are unfounded. The neighbor who has an external heat system, well NEVER have I been aware when they are burning..now the neighbor who burns his trash because he is too cheap to pay to have it hauled away, him and his melting plastic emissions I could live with out.

  • lyfia
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm guessing this would affect more of your neighbors than you. Have you talked with the closest ones? It would likely affect them too, maybe not the same degree, but they would be affected and it could affect the property values of the whole neighborhood.

  • daisychain01
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I find this idea that people move to rural areas to be able to do whatever they want, to be very interesting. I didn't know that being rural meant you were exempt from following rules of law.

    We have rural property so that we can enjoy the quiet and beauty of nature and breathe clean air. Does the right to do whatever you want in rural areas trump the rights of others to enjoy the outdoors?

  • camlan
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Even in rural areas, there are still state or county or townships regulations and ordinances. I live in a small city in a rural area. Sure, I can, if I want, keep chickens in my back yard. But I can't have a rooster, except under certain conditions, like I have to have over 1/2 acre of land, which I don't. And if I do keep chickens, I have to a have a proper house for them, and they can't annoy the neighbors.

    You still have to get permits for building. If you have livestock, there are regulations regarding their care. You still have to get a dog license. Things like that. There may be *fewer* regulations in rural areas, but there certainly aren't *no* regulations at all.

    And it is always possible for regulations to be changed. I'd encourage the OP to address the matter with the HOA board, and see if these boilers can be prohibited, or limited, or the owner be required to show that installation won't affect neighbors in a negative way.

    Same with whatever country or other local government there is. Several complaints to local officials are often more effective than the same complaints to state officials. Although, since it appears that the state government is aware of the issue, getting people to contact their state representatives wouldn't hurt, either. No one is going to change the regulations until enough people complain about the existing regulations, or lack thereof. I would at least want an answer from the state as to *why* they don't regulate the boilers. It's clear someone at the state level knows they can be a problem or the document the OP found wouldn't exist.

    And the OP may have to wait until after the boiler is installed and in use before anything can be done. My dad once objected to a neighbor's application for a zoning/building permit variance, because the proposed addition and expanded driveway would cover most of the neighbor's back yard. And Dad's house was down hill from them, and he already got a lot of run-off in his yard every time it rained. He was worried about his cellar flooding.

    The neighbor was allowed the variance, but wording was included that if water run-off became a problem for any of the neighboring properties, he would have to remediate the problem.

    The neighbor could have incorporated some drainage in his plans, but chose not to.

    Two years later, after Dad's basement had flooded several times (in the previous 15 years he'd lived there, it had flooded once), and inspection by the town, the neighbor had to install a drainage system that required digging up pretty much all of his two-year old driveway.

    So if the boiler does get installed, the OP should document things, starting now. Pictures of her house in various typical types of weather. Then pictures after the boiler is installed. Notations on medical issues for her family members with asthma, what normal usage of their inhalers is now, and later with smoke blowing all around their house. It might come in handy.

    But I still think investing a couple of hundred dollars talking to a lawyer experienced in these matters would be a good thing.

  • Braydon
    8 years ago

    I know this is an old post but I felt I should chime in for any future readers. We purchased a house three years ago that was heated with an outdoor wood boiler. We live in rural Ontario, Canada where February is typically -35 Celcius. We had never heard or seen these things before but heating sources in the rural area are limited to wood, electric heat, or propane.


    Here's my experience with them after three years or using one every winter:

    The very first time you fire up the boiler each fall there will be lots of smoke for an hour or two (just like when you light a fire in your fireplace - there is lots of smoke out your chimney upon first start). After the boiler is at temperature, and you're burning seasoned wood, there will be VERY little smoke.


    IF the boiler is a gassifier (re-burns the gas before it exits the chimney) then there is practically NO visible smoke at all - EVER.


    Most boilers have thermostats that ONLY open the dampers and turn on the down draft fans when the water temperature goes below a set value (160 degrees usually). For my boiler, in the dead of the winter here in Canada (-35 degrees C), the boiler will turn on once every 45 minutes and stay on for 10 to 15 minutes to re-ignite the wood (this is the only time that smoke would ever come out the chimney if it wasn't a 'smokeless'/gassifier unit.), then close the dampers and the fire is put out, leaving only red hot wood embers/coals.


    You WILL, however, smell the wood... which most people think smells nice (think of a campfire on a cold night, or cuddling up to a fireplace with a hot chocolate). However, if you dont like the smell of a wood fire, then this will put you off.


    The pictures that others have posted above could be 1) People burning something that they're not supposed to be burning like garbage 2) burning green/wet wood - so you're seeing STEAM in those pictures 3) the first start up on the boiler (either of the year OR maybe they turned it off while they were away on vacation and re-fired it when they returned).


    As a home owner with a boiler for my heat source I can say that I envy those with natural gas. A boilers is a LOT of work, a LOT of maintenance, and takes a LOT of energy/time to cut, stack, and load the wood (not to mention the ash clean out every two days). BUT.. for us, its half the price of propane and 1/6 the price of electric heat.

  • Debbie Downer
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    The "smell" of wood smoke IS the wood smoke - if you are smelling it, that means there is smoke ie particles of ash in the air. It might smell "nice" for an hour or two. Perhaps an entire evening. But 24/7? No way. Depending on direction of wind (generally west to east in these parts) this really could be a health hazard. Guess Im a little sensitized to this issue by having a neighbor across the alley who likes to burn incense/ scented candles 24/7 and leave unattended campfires smoldering in their back yard for hours.

    There are air quality regulations on the books - your property rights end at the property line.

  • Braydon
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    You will not smell it 24/7 though, only when the boiler turns on. And yes, the smell IS 'invisible smoke particulate'... but are you saying that no one should ever heat their homes with wood, ever?! A properly run boiler creates less smoke/smell than a home heated with a wood fireplace. Wood has been the traditional heating fuel source for thousands of years and only until recently has natural gas trumped it's usage - however, that's ONLY in areas where natural gas is offered.

    Personally, I would chose natural gas over a wood boiler simply because i'd be saving my back and my time (plus the cost is very comparable). But, since we are stuck between heating with wood, propane, or electricity... this is by far the cheapest method. If we really want to start talking 'air quality' I suppose we can start taking the path down "How is electricity is produced & the pollution associated from its manufacture" in different states/provinces,.. and what type of pollution comes from the creation, transportation, and overhead of propane.

  • cat_ky
    8 years ago

    I am originally from Mn. A neighbor about a mile away from us (we had 40 acres) had one of those outside wood stoves. The smell was terrible at our house, and in the spring, we had to power wash our cedar siding, and the black soot just rolled off our house. Luckily, they didnt like the mess they had to clean up in the spring either, so it was only used that one year. This was the year 1988 I think, because, we moved in 1991, and the stoves may have been improved considerably since then.

  • PRO
    Sombreuil
    8 years ago

    It's my property so I should be able to dispense with a septic tank and have the black water discharge on open ground 50 feet from my neighbors. (I'm vegan, so my s&*t doesn't stink)

    It's my property so I should be allowed to have hog waste pond (or turkeys) 50 feet from my neighbors.

    It's my property, so gfy. because freedom.

    Nice to see the golden rule at work.

    Casey


  • Delilah66
    8 years ago

    The ecological footprints of regulated utilities such as power plants and water/wastewater treatment plants are less than the collective ecological footprints of an equal number of individuals operating their own systems. Many residential operations are designed to fall under the radar of environmental restriction thereby resulting in the conditions cat_ky described.

  • Braydon
    8 years ago

    Wow - We do all know that there's a difference between the product, and the user, right!? We're talking about Outdoor Wood Boilers - NOT the people that use them.


    There are cars that pollute, are not safe/fit, and are not maintained by their owners - Does that mean we should ban ALL cars forever?!


    Some people DO illegally empty septic tanks out on their own property, but does that mean that Septic tanks themselves are the problem and we should ban the use of all septic tanks!?


    User error/ignorance is DIFFERENT than what I thought we were talking about here. The outdoor wood boiler PRODUCT (at least the smokeless/gassifiers) is relatively clean burning and NOT a nuisance to any surrounding neighbours. USER ERROR/JUDGEMENT on what they burn and/or the lack of maintenance, however, is a whole other discussion - which this topic was not supposed to be about.

  • PRO
    Sombreuil
    8 years ago

    My argument is based on the proximity to beings other than the owner of the discharged waste. If the discharge is so inoffensive, then the owner will have no problem installing it upwind of his own house. The very fact he seeks to place it as far as possible from his own lungs gives the charade away.

  • Braydon
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Our boiler is approximately 25 feet away from our home. Some boilers are designed for indoor use in the basement. Some cities/towns have regulations on how far away an outdoor fire burning appliance needs to be from buildings.

    Again, with a smokeless/gassifier boiler and operated in the manner that it should be, there will not be the smoke/dirt, etc that most people seem to be posting about here.

    We've used our boiler for three years now (this will be our fourth winter), and there is no dirt, no soot on buildings, no smoke getting inside the home (my wife has 'pregnancy nose' and her super smell doesn't smell any smoke inside the house, and when the inlaws come over they certainly dont smell smoke inside the house). You cannot visually see any smoke from the unit after start up UNLESS you toss in a green log or something that you're not supposed to.

  • Suzieque
    8 years ago

    Many of these posts indicate a "how dare he" attitude and suggest going to authorities, etc.. Heck, he asked you if it's ok with you before he just went ahead and did it. Sounds like a good neighbor to me!

    I think you should discuss your concerns with him. Try to work it out in a neighborly way first and answer the question he asked you. No need to fly off the handle and get all hrumph about it.