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School staffing question

Posted by mama_goose (My Page) on
Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 12:12

Warning ... long, with graphic 'barf' details.

Yesterday my daughter called from her work, telling me that my grandson's school had called to say that another child had vomited on him during lunch. He wanted to come home to shower, then return to school. It takes us 30 minutes to get to GS' school, and my daughter's work is a 30 minute drive in the other direction, so I offered to take care of it.

It took me only 5 minutes to get ready and gather a change of clothes for him, but by the time I got to the school it was probably at least 45 minutes after the actual event. When I arrived at the school, I found GS standing in the hall, across from the office, speaking to someone through an open door. When I saw his condition, I couldn't believe it! He still had vomit (chunks) drying on the front of his shorts, and caked on his socks and shoes. There were red stains running down his legs. Also, there was no chair in the hallway for him to sit on, while he waited for someone to get there.

I told him to stay in the hall, then I asked the secretary why no one had helped him clean up. She said that she didn't know the details--she had just called for pick up. I asked if there was no one qualified to help him, and if there was no school nurse. (And I'll admit that I wasn't nice about it.) I was told that it was the nurse to whom he had been speaking, through the open door.

I walked across the hall, again told him to wait outside, and asked the nurse the same question. She said that she was sure he'd been given a paper towel to wipe himself down. This is a six year old child, covered in someone else's barf. How many times during that 45 minutes did his hands brush his shorts or legs, then touch his face?! I told the nurse that I was appalled at her behavior. Without her permission, I opened the door and told GS to step into her office so that I could change his clothes. As I was untying his barf-covered shoe strings (with my bare hands), she shoved a box of gloves toward me, asking if I wanted them. In a fit of pique, I told her, "No, I don't, but I wonder if anyone offered gloves to him?"

I changed his shorts and shirt, stowed the soiled things in the same plastic bag that I'd brought with me, and huffed out. As soon as we got to the car, I broke out the hand sanitizer, which I use only in extreme circumstances. When I questioned him, GS confirmed that he was given a paper towel to clean himself, and that he had been standing in the hall the whole time, waiting for pick up. While GS was showering at home, I called my daughter to let her know what had happened. Since she's the parent, I felt that she should be the one to follow up on the situation.

So, after the above rant (thank you, I feel better now), my questions are - should my daughter complain, and to whom? If the school nurse is not responsible for helping a small child in that circumstance, then who is? Lunch room monitor? Teacher's aide? Is there a rule that school employees are not allowed to touch a child, or not allowed to touch body fluids?

Did I overreact? I was rude--I didn't apologize for my behavior, but when I returned GS to school, I told the secretary that since he isn't my child, his mother will be the one to follow up. Bet she was very relieved. ;) I was careful not to let GS hear my complaints. He's not aware of any issues (except that he and I had the discussion about the situation not being the sick kid's fault, and that he should be nice when she returns to class :).

And let me say that it was not for my own comfort that I was so upset. I've taken care of sick kids, sick animals, and sick adults. In the past year I've been a caregiver for my aunt who had dementia, my mother who had cancer, and my father who had a stroke; little kid barf is a relative walk in the park.

The point is moot, since my DD is making the decision, but would you complain, or let it go?


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: School staffing question

Oh goodness. I don't know if there are rules that apply, but if a nurse can't touch bodily fluid with gloves on, what the heck kind of nurse is that? It ain't Ebola.

I would think simple human kindness would dictate that any adult, tho especially the nurse, should have helped clean him up.

I would complain. I would wait until Tuesday because complaining while one is upset is usually not best.


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RE: School staffing question

Yes I would be outraged and would make plenty complaints all the way up to the board. I taught young children and cleaned up plenty of other kids'vomit without complaint and I know our public school's nurse has spare clothes and disinfectant wipes to help others get cleaned up from such mishaps. The nurse and staffs behavior was unacceptable. I am sorry this happened to you grandson.


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RE: School staffing question

mtnrd, thank you, it's been a few years since my own kids were in school, so I didn't know if rules had changed. I understand an employee not wanting to ask a child to disrobe, but his shoes and socks could have been removed and bagged. I agree about not complaining in the heat of the moment--another reason his parents should handle it.

roarah, I often took in my kids' outgrown clothes to the school nurse--I would think that all schools would keep a few pieces on hand. I don't know why no one offered wet wipes. At the very least the nurse could have cut head- and arm-slits in a garbage bag and covered him neck to ankle. Thank you.


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RE: School staffing question

Mama goose

I was a school nurse for decades. I cleaned up vomit, potty accidents, you name it.
I consider that part of my job. I would never allow a child to stand there without getting cleaned up and I would NEVER permit the child to stand in shame in a hallway, they always waited in the clinic for pickup.
I always called the parent myself when something like that happened. For one thing, I always conferred with the parent because the vomiting child may have been ill, and for another, a few parents have very strong feelings that they do not want their children in someone else's donated clothing, most did not mind, but I always called (for potty accidents, there was no budget for this so I always bought a substantial number of packages of different sized undies boy and girl to have on hand in the clinic, anyone needing a change would have brand new undies to wear).

I would make a fuss. There is absolutely no excuse for what happened, after all it was 45 minutes.


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RE: School staffing question

It is definitely the school nurse's responsibility in every school I've taught at, or which my children have attended. The appropriate response (which is what I've aways known to happen), is that the nurse provides a clean set of clothes for the child to change into (this comes from a stash of donated clothing kept in the nurse's room for this type of situation), and helps the child clean him/herself up. The child goes home in the clean clothing, with his soiled clothing bagged, and then brings the loaner clothing back freshly washed. The nurse would also call the parent, explain the situation and ask if the parent would like to pick up the child, or have the child remain at school. (Of course, if it was the child himself who vomited, there would be no choice).

You were absolutely correct in talking to the nurse, but I doubt it had much impact on a nurse who would behave this way in the first place. Typically a nurse reports to the principal, and may also have a supervisor at the District level. I would start with an email to the principal and a request for a meeting. If the follow-up isn't satisfactory, ask for a meeting with the District Supervisor. If the nurse doesn't have a District Supervisor, and the principal is not helpful, request a meeting with the Area Superintendent or District Superintendent. This is completely unacceptable, and your daughter would be doing a service to all the children in that school to escalate this.


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RE: School staffing question

Unfortunately, there's a huge fear inbred in adult school employees these day about adult to student physical contact. There have been some horrific cases where a student or another teacher have reported innocent hugs or physical assistance as improper contact resulting in the loss of job and even police investigation of the adult. Sadly, even if the contact was innocent, the accused adult never recovers their reputation.

The nurse, if afraid to assist your grandson because of the physical touching issue, should have reached out to another school staffer to witness her assitance to your grandson.

Leaving him covered in vomit in a hallway was totally inappropriate. The pricipal or school board needs to set up some guidelines for this sort of occurence.

This post was edited by Fun2BHere on Fri, Aug 29, 14 at 14:22


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RE: School staffing question

Surely a nurse has to be able to touch a student.

I just recalled, I used to run the spiritwear programs and we always donated leftover clothing (sweats, tees) to the nurse for these incidents.


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RE: School staffing question

I am so sorry that your little grandson had to go through this! You are absolutely justified in your outrage, and your DD should complain to the principal. Our school nurses also always had extra changes of clothing for children, and we used to periodically donate to the stash.


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RE: School staffing question

The rule is "If it is icky and sticky and not yours don't touch it; with out gloves". Yes it was the nurses job. Chances are there wasn't a nurse present--the gal you were dealing with was an aid standing in for the nurse. Most school districts have one REAL nurse and nurses aids in the building she travels among. There is no excuse for what happened and nothing about it sounds like any adult in that school acted appropriately. Saying all that, I have a feeling you are in a bad District and there isn't anyone who would listen and give you any satisfaction short of a law suit. I wonder what a personal injury lawyer would suggest.


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RE: School staffing question

Totally inappropriate! Your daughter should speak to the principal. Our school (public) always kept a supply of underwear and clothing. Unless you live 5-10 min from school and can be there in a flash, I can't imagine any parent being upset if the school nurse helped a child into spare clothes until the parent got there or even for the rest of the day if the parent worked far away or couldn't come.


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Thank you all so much--you are describing the procedure that was followed when my kids were young. Care and concern, clean donated clothing, and a seat in the nurse's office, while waiting for pick up. GS volunteered the information that the nurse said the only clothes she had in the office were hers. Yes, that one is hard to believe.

Fortunately, my grandson doesn't seem to be traumatized--he's so social that being able to stand in the hallway and talk to everyone passing, instead of attending class, was an exciting diversion. He has no real understanding of germs/viruses and transmission--the staff might have cautioned him not to touch the 'icky' stuff, but on the way home (after I used the sanitizer), I noticed he rubbed his nose several times. He'll probably have the same virus next week.

Incidentally, he is on the open enrollment program. My daughter and her X share custody, and GS is attending a school half-way between his father's home and ours. But my children also attended school in a different district from which we live (after we moved out of former district), and that should make no difference. That might factor into my DD's decision to pursue the matter, though.

Honestly, I don't know if the person was the nurse or aide, but my grandson knew her name. When I asked if he'd been standing in the hall the whole time, he said yes, he'd just walked over to the open door to talk with Miss_____.

It's good to know that other adults would have been more helpful and understanding. Maybe the staff will react differently the next time.


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RE: School staffing question

That nurse was either extradinarily busy or just plain lazy. Like above posts there are donated clothes and new undies to change children. Is this a school that got an unusual number of new students? Lots of paper work, but still no excuse.


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RE: School staffing question

So sorry your GS went through this. I would be concerned too about allowing a child to stand alone in a hallway.
Are you saying that your daughter doesn't want to make waves by discussing this manner?

There are concerns all around. He should have been cleaned up, given new clothes and wait in an office with an adult until a family member arrived. End of story.

Things fall between the cracks, but this should be addressed so everyone is aware of proper procedure.

When my kids were in elementary school, the PTA was very involved in protocol.


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RE: School staffing question

I am a teacher and I would be furious. We do not have a full-time nurse in any schools any more. We have a clinic aide who is actually a county (not school) employee. All the schools in my district have clothes for kids to change into when needed. The situation you describe is totally unacceptable and those are the words I would use when speaking with the teacher, principal, and anyone else. You did say that your GS said he wanted to go home to clean up and maybe he refused to change, but it is still not okay. A good teacher, counselor, clinic aide, whatever should certainly be able to cajole a six-year old into letting an adult help clean him up and change before going home to shower and do the complete clean up!

I don't know where you live, but I would absolutely raise cain. I cannot imagine any school staff allowing the situation you describe.


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RE: School staffing question

I agree… That is totally unacceptable. I taught elementary for 12 years and at every school I've been it's always the nurse's job to handle bodily fluids on children, with gloves. If they feel they need a witness to help the child clean up, that's been done too. The child is given clean clothes, soiled ones bagged, parents called if needed.

Your daughter should definitely make a complaint to the principal. I'm appalled at the disregard for your GS.


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RE: School staffing question

Thank you all for your support. The secretary's (I guess that is still the title in use) window and office door are just inside the vestibule. After being approved, visitors are admitted through a locked double glass door. My GS was in the hallway beyond the locked door, so I feel that he was safe. The nurse was sitting at her desk, talking to him through the open door. It was lunchtime--I don't know how long she'd been in her office before GS decided to go over to talk to her, but if she was at lunch, in another building, or in another district, someone should have been assigned to fill in for her.

When the incident first happened GS might have been upset and "wanted to go home," but he would not have refused assistance, or refused to change clothes. This is the most outgoing, friendliest kid I've ever known, and he obviously liked the nurse enough to engage her in conversation. He was downright thrilled to know how the floor and concrete entry felt against his bare feet--just like the sidewalk at home!

I don't know if the school is overcrowded, but an open enrollment student can be denied for any reason--the home district is the only one that has to accept him. It's a small school, in a small town--if a student or his family is seen as a problem, I can imagine that might influence the decision.

In retrospect, it seems to me that everyone was busy, and was hoping that someone else would take care of the mess. And since they knew that a family member was coming, well, that let them all off the hook. (They thought.)

I haven't had a chance to talk to my daughter this evening, but I'm thrilled to know that the little girl returned to school today, and my grandson said that he was nice to her. :)


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RE: School staffing question

I'd be furious and they would know why in detail, as it would be documented in a concise letter to the school principal and superintendent with a request that it be placed in the employee's personnel file.


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I agree with kswl - it really should be put in the "nurse's" file. I mean, at minimum it was lazy, and could possibly be considered negligent. I'm sure it seems like a huge hassle to write a letter and then follow up on it, but it should be reported.


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RE: School staffing question

As a former elementary school secretary, I can see a couple of situations that might need to be considered....

About the clothing:
Our nurse always had clothing to change into also, but if your school just started for the year, there may not have been any on hand. Often, the clothes from the previous year are gone and the supply needs to be built up again. In our school, every room was thoroughly cleaned every summer and NOTHING remained in any empty rooms or cabinets because they were gone over with a fine tooth comb, painted, etc.

NURSE:
I doubt the nurse was on her own lunch break. Lunchtime is the BUSIEST time for a school nurse who must hand out meds at that time. Our nurse always had to take a mid-afternoon lunch.

Could the grandson have been OUTSIDE of the nurse's office because of space limitations...were there many sickies INSIDE her office, including the sick person who vomited on your grandson?

I agree to start with the principal of the school and might even suggest he include the nurse's supervisor. That should NOT have happened.


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Glad2be---- yes, it should go on the dreaded permanent record 😈


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RE: School staffing question

My daughter will probably ask to speak with the principal on Tuesday.

I really don't care that GS' clothes weren't changed. They could have tied a trash bag around his waist, as a barrier between him and the soiled shorts. If his shoes and socks had been removed, and a few wet wipes used on his shorts and legs, I wouldn't have complained.

There were no children in the nurse's office when I entered, and the nurse was sitting at her desk, writing, when I introduced myself. The sick child had been signed out before I arrived--I saw her name on the list, but didn't note the time. Maybe the nurse's priority was handing out meds, and getting children back to class (if there were kids who needed their meds), but someone should have been recruited to clean up my grandson.

I'm sure the principal will offer an apology, and use the excuse that too much was going on and the nurse was swamped. Maybe I'll suggest that my daughter ask why the principal didn't don a pair of gloves and help out.


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RE: School staffing question

Medications typically have a time window, such as 30 minutes before to 30 minutes after the time they are prescribed to be given, so even if the nurse was giving meds, a brief interruption would generally not place her outside of that window.
It would have taken all of two minutes for the nurse to clean up your GS.
It should have been done.
The very nature of school nursing means that at times, there will be a lot going on.
But unless there was a true emergency that demanded her time (clearly not, as she was sitting and writing) she should have taken the few minutes to clean him up, and he should have waited in the clinic, not have had to stand in the hall that way.


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RE: School staffing question

Complain ...If only to bring attention that proper procedures should be put in place when a bodily fluid is shared .
What has it taught your GS about proper hygiene ?
It's not OK to stand in a hallway with vomit on you.
School nurses( or whatever you call them) are not just medical personnel.They are teachers as well.
They are responsible for promoting a healthy environment and managing communicable diseases.
I am not really a germ freak :)
But what part of doing nothing is acceptable ??
~By "doing nothing" I mean the school~
Not you Mama_Goose !!

This post was edited by forboystoo on Sun, Aug 31, 14 at 14:26


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RE: School staffing question

I was a teacher for many years and agree with cyn. We only had a nurse assigned to our school a few hours a week. All teachers had a supply of gloves to use for just such situations, and I kept my own stash of clothes. Many times the person who helped the child clean up was myself. Just part of the job in my opinion.


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RE: School staffing question

I think this is outrageous, and I can't wait to hear the outcome of your daughter's and/or your complaint. Will the school try to cover it up and protect their employee or will they own up to a failure in the system to protect your GS, a child in the system, who was in their charge?

I would give them a chance, albeit short, to take action to ensure this never happens again to another child, and ensure this nurse is written up for a gross negligence of duty to her students. At the very least she should have helped the students cleanup before they were picked up, by ensuring hands, arms and legs were washed. And any debris cleaned way with wipes. If she needed assistance, I am quite sure there would be someone, a teacher, aide, or office assistant who could come to assist in an emergency. Even the principal shouldn't be too busy to participate in basic situations such as this at the elementary/primary school level. It's called looking out for basic needs and compassion.


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RE: School staffing question

yesterday, I asked our daughter (Kindergarten teacher) how she handles this type of situation. She teaches in a huge school. There is always a nurse on site, something that every school does not have.

She keeps containers of wipes and rubber gloves in her class room for exactly this type of thing (when teachers ask for these kind of supplies this is exactly why).

She will put the gloves on herself and the child (the sick one and the target). She then hands wipes to the kids, and helps them clean themselves as well as possible. She does some of the cleaning, but also directs the kids on what to wipe and how to dispose of the dirty wipes. She calls the office and they send an adult aid to come and get the child and escort the child to the nurse. The nurse has a closet full of clothes for the child to change into to. Dirty clothes are bagged and sent home with child.

The janitor does come quickly and cleans with the same stuff they have been using since I was a kid.

ML


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RE: School staffing question

I didn't take time to read all the other comments, but yes, it's the school nurses responsibility and I'd have a fit and call the principal, because you were the one that came to get your grandson and saw how he was left standing in the hall covered in someone elses vomit. This is a health issue, so if the principal doesn't take it seriously I'd go straight to the school board.
He should have been cleaned up by the nurse at the very least! I've worked at two different schools are an assistant teacher and both nurses offices had showers and extra clothing.


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RE: School staffing question

I didn't take time to read all the other comments, but yes, it's the school nurses responsibility. Our grandson is six and if this happened to him, I'd call the principal. Because you were the one that came to get your grandson and saw how he was left standing in the hall covered in someone elses vomit I see no reason to leave this all to your daughter. This is a health issue, so if the principal doesn't take it seriously I'd go straight to the school board.
He should have been cleaned up by the nurse at the very least! I've worked at two different schools as an assistant teacher and both nurses offices had showers and extra clothing.


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RE: School staffing question

Please also note that although YOUR social, outgoing grandson may have seen this as an adventure, this experience of having to stand for 45 minutes in a hallway in vomited-on and likely smelly clothing may easily have been another child's traumatising event, especially a shy individual who might not have felt comfortable engaging an adult in conversation; rejected and abandoned in the hallway,not worth enough for to have an adult take time to meet his/her basic needs....


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I was a shy and self-conscious child with a bit of a phobia about being dirty or sticky. Due to my shyness, I probably would not have said a thing but would have been dying inside. So for me, that episode would have been traumatizing.


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Thank you all so much for your perspectives. It's nice to know that I wasn't just being an over protective grandma.

My daughter has decided not to talk to the principal. She feels that nothing will be done, so her complaint would be futile. Also, she didn't see GS until he was cleaned up, and since he didn't seem to be upset, she feels it's better to let it go. If this had happened to me when I was a child, I would have had a melt-down, and would have been sick, too. Maybe that's why I reacted so strongly.

Another reason I reacted as I did, was that I recall my third grade teacher making a sick student clean up his own mess, because a custodian wasn't available in our annex. Even at such a young age I was horrified--I never liked the teacher after that, and after 50 years I remember all the details, including the face of the sick child.

If my daughter approves, I think I'll send a calm letter to the school board. I'm sure the principal was aware of my chagrin, since her secretary was the first person I questioned, and since no other staff member cared enough to help, I'll bypass that option.

I'll post again when I have an update.


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I find it so hard to believe that your daughter doesn't want to go further with this. I asked our son, who has custody of his six year old son, what would he would do if this happened to his son, adding that your grandson didn't seem to be upset. He said he didn't care of his son seemed upset or not, he'd go to the top if he had to so this wouldn't happen to another child in the future. It appalled him, as it did my hubby and I. I'm just shocked that a mother wouldn't want to do the same as our son. I know she's your daughter, but I'm shocked, as I'm sure you are too. I don't think I'd ask for her approval. You're the one that witnessed it. Yes, she's his mother, but still.... Shaking my head.


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RE: School staffing question

I work in the office at a school with small children. We have no school nurse. I agree your grandson should not have been standing in the hallway in that condition. I also agree that 45 minutes is much too long to wait. However, I know that when we have a child in soiled clothing, we always call the parent to give the parent the option of bringing their child clothing. If they can't, we then help the child clean up and change into some of our donated clothes. Sometimes a parent will respond with, "yes, I'll be right there" and no one will come for 45 minutes. If we'd known they would take that long, we'd have changed the child ourselves. By giving the parents the opportunity to come, we feel obligated to wait for them. Most parents would be unhappy if they told us they were coming and then we cleaned and changed their child.

I'm not saying what happened to your grandson was good, but I am saying there could be alternate reasons why the circumstances played out the way they did. Most of the people working with small children really care and don't want to humiliate or hurt them.

Truly, I'm sorry this happened to your grandson.

This post was edited by sarahmakes6 on Sat, Sep 6, 14 at 20:03


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RE: School staffing question

What exactly does open enrollment mean? Is your daughter concerned that her son can be denied entry next year?

Also, I agree that maybe those in charge didn't realize it would take that long. I think your grandson wasn't traumatized because he was not the one who vomited and was sick. It might have been exciting to be out in the hall instead of in his classroom.

I think I would let this go. But, be on extra alert if other types of incidents occur.


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RE: School staffing question

This isn't the first time that one of DD's decisions has had me shaking my head. My daughter and GS have lived with me since she separated from her husband--sometimes I need to remind myself that DD is in charge of grandson, and decisions that affect him, even though I'd do things differently.

Sorry, I can't imagine a parent/grandparent who would prefer that a child wait in vomit-covered clothing, which had been 'wiped' with only a paper towel (by the child himself).

Open enrollment is when a child is permitted to attend school in a different district from his residence. Funds are reallocated from the home district (where we pay taxes) to the school the child is attending. Since they share custody, X-son-in-law insisted that GS attend a school half-way between his home and ours. My daughter didn't want unpleasantness with her X, and doesn't want to have problems at the school.

A bit of irony:

This past week we received GS's school supply list. In addition to individual supplies, every boy in class is responsible for bringing in 3 containers of disinfectant wipes. This, after no one bothered to offer GS a wet wipe to help clean up. Really.


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RE: School staffing question

"Most parents would be unhappy if they told us they were coming and then we cleaned and changed their child."

As I mentioned in an earlier post, there are occasionally parents who have strong feelings about their kids being changed into other kids used (but clean) clothing, and I have had to have children wait in my clinic for the parents to arrive with a change of their own clothes.
However, the child was ALWAYS cleaned off (by me) and they waited in the clinic.

Not only is that a comfort to the child, but putting a child in a hallway with vomit on him is an invitation to spread any illness that the original vomiter might have had.
Very few young children will stand in a hall with their hands to themselves.


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RE: School staffing question

MamaGoose, I feel for you.


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RE: School staffing question

Now ...What is the opinion of such an incident
had the sick child been in one of the 10 states with the Enteroviruses.


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RE: School staffing question

The sick kid is in one of the states listed as having outbreaks.

Grandson was sick last week with an upper respiratory virus, aggravated by seasonal allergies (according to his ped.) He never had any gastrointestinal symptoms, so I'm happy that he dodged that virus. If I had read about the Enterovirus last week, I'd have been in a panic, but he seems to be recovered, thank goodness!

If the barf incident had happened this week, they'd probably have had him on the back parking lot, hosing him down until we could get there. **Edited to add: I think I should call the school and suggest that the nurse and principal go buy lottery tickets, because they are two damn lucky people, that it didn't happen this week.

(justgotabme, thank you.)

Here is a link that might be useful: news article/Enterovirus

This post was edited by mama_goose on Tue, Sep 9, 14 at 14:07


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RE: School staffing question

And this is why things like this should be cleaned up right away. You never know when something like this is going to hit your school/area. Shame on them!


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