I haven't been on a plane in years where the seats recline more than about an inch and a half. I also haven't experienced problems when the person in front of me reclines, and I'm d@mn well not going to spend 10 hours on a plane in a completely upright position.

Dedtired don't you think both behaviors were equally bad? The person reclining to pin you in although they may not have realized that and you hitting the seat on purpose. I would say neither was considerate. I have actually asked people in front of me without issues. All have been very nice about it and adjusted appropriately.

I've not had the issue of somebody else encroaching on my space and I can imagine the humiliation that would come with it, but I do agree that if you are doing that why should somebody else subsidize your space. They paid for their seat too and should able to use all of it.

I think the worst flight I was on was flying from O'Hare to Stockholm and wanting to sleep, but constantly woken up by the man across the aisle who was snoring so loud that I who can generally sleep through most things woke up multiple times. I even got up and tried to gently nudge him and he didn't skip a beat. The other passengers also tried after that. He was loud as generally I have a hard time hearing anything across an aisle. Flight attendants came to see what the problem was and they tried waking him and he didn't even stir and kept going. After a while it became sort of comical.

In february I did notice the lack of space in coach as compared to what I was used to for a transatlantic flight. It was with British airways and it felt just as tight as American domestic flights or the other numerous planes in Europe we were "detoured" on until finally reaching our destination. We had bought the upgraded space on our way over, but the flight home was full on the way home so was stuck with coach. I remember coach being more space than that for transatlantic flights in the past.

Kelly,
I, too have compassion for people that need to fly to get to their destination and have to overcome obstacles to get there. I feel for the heavy person with the oh so narrow aisles and tiny seats. It is hard for an average person to get comfortable and I'm always a little anxious about flying anyway. My husband used to travel tons for his job. He has had long flights to Italy with an overweight person partially in his seat. He has had people run into him since he likes an aisle seat. He has had more issues to contend with than I can think of, and he is 6'2. But he is kind. And would never make someone feel embarrassed.
I remember clearly when we were planning to move across the country for a new job. My husband's company forced us to travel with our 2 week old infant to check out the area. My son need to nurse and I was holding him off until I was situated in my seat. Boy the awful looks I got as I boarded the plane - like "please don't sit near me!". And the people I DID sit near were not kind. However, as soon as he began to nurse he was quiet. Everyone became nice, even curious when he was quiet.
I think everyone is doing the best they can. We all shouldn't be so quick to judge. Life is hard enough and we don't know what others are facing on a particular day. Kindness matters

Not going back to the knee bump issue.

However, I remember when my 1 yr old nephew was on a flight to Brazil and spiked a fever. He screamed the entire way. I was on a different flight, but boy did his parents look haggard after that trip. They had packed the children's Tylenol in the stowed luggage. All they could do was walk the aisles with him and try to calm him down. The parents are both doctors, so I was surprised they had not kept it handy. What an awful experience.

The first time DH and I took a redeye back from the west coast, it wasn't that bad. A year ago, the seats barely reclined, so it was pretty uncomfortable, and we are only 5'3" and 5'7". We barely slept.

I don't mind on the smaller planes the planeside check.

Back when I used to fly a lot, my friend and I were able to use my USAirways premier upgrade to business class for Paris, which was awesome. I only had it for one-way but because of space we got a comp upgrade on the way back, so we were thrilled. Then when she and I went to Australia 10 years ago, we were then able to get an exit row on Qantas for no extra charge--I'm sure it's probably an extra charge now. She is 5'11", but people were giving me the dirty looks as to what was I doing in the exit row!

BTW, if you have an airline credit card, you usually get priority boarding and better selection of seats. For someone like me who flies out of a hub, it's worth the annual fee for that.

I used to like AirTran because I could often purchase a first-class upgrade, which is good when others have paid for the ticket, or I am limited in what I can spend through work.

I have sat next to heavy people, tall people, little kids, and pets! It is not comfortable for anyone, so I try to give people a little slack. One of my recent flights in the row behind me was a man travelling by himself with a ~3-year-old boy and an infant girl maybe about 6-8 months old. He did a fabulous job of keeping the kids engaged and calm.

Oh my. These stories are making my claustrophobia kick in just imagining my flight to Paris next month. I fly cross country several times a year , and always on our beloved Jetblue. Our trip to Europe is on........Delta! Yikes! I have my fingers crossed that the 'comfort plus' ( or whatever delta names it) That I purchased , makes it a comfortable flight. I cannot imagine the cramped seats described here. Oh, I did have to fly American about 6 years ago and , even then the seats were far less roomy than on JB. Because I cannot abide the idea of an 11 hour flight from the west coast, we are visiting family for a few days before and flying from JFK. Eight hours i can mansge easily....on jetblue, anyway. You all have me terrified. I'm going to go take a peek on seatguru.com and check the seat measurments on our plane. Might as well be prepared.
Yes, I realize airlines have been struggling, but what scares me is the fact that they have us at their mercy, and when they begin to prosper again, does anyone believe they will share a return of the good times with us , i.e. in removing those extra seats, and lowering fares?

It's a horrible experience to fly nowadays. So uncomfortable. When its a long flight sometimes I just want to scream lol
But now DH and I both take aisle seats across the aisle from each of us. We at least feel we have a little space by doing that.

I flew Virgin Air last December. It was more comfy and you have your own tv screen. Wish they flew everywhere.

I flew Delta from Seattle to Amsterdam 2 years ago. I just had a standard economy seat and it wasn't horrible. I liked the seat configuration. I believe it was 2 seats on each side and 5 in the middle. I like the window seat so that I can put a pillow there and lean my head against it, so it's nice to only have to get past one other passenger. I found one of the flight attendants to be less than helpful though. At first my light didn't work at all, and she just sort of shrugged her shoulders. Luckily it did work for most of the flight, because I didn't know what I would do if I couldn't read for 10 hours! Then she insisted that a passenger clear their stuff out of the overhead compartment right above them because that is where she needed to put her stuff. I just assumed that the FAs had dedicated storage areas on the plane.

If available, I like the bulkheads seats and they only cost a little bit more.

When our return flight from Barcelona was unexpectedly cancelled we learned from other passengers that Delta stands for, "Doesn't Ever Leave The Airport":).

I must say, however, that we were treated very well with an overnight at a luxury hotel at a beautiful seaside resort town. Every meal included fabulous food, transportation to and from as well. Even got travel vouchers after asking nicely:)

Well we made it to prague on delta...2hr delay due to weather and caterer screwed up and a girl traveling with a group lost her passport and they couldn't let her fly...so they had to dig through all the luggage to find hers and take it off the plane.

Anyway seats on delta in economy were small and uncomfortable, but doable. They werent as small as other flights ive been on. I didn't sleep deeply but managed to doze...with the help of my bed socks, eye shades, neck pillow and ear plugs. It is frustrating though when you leave the plane through first class and see all those down filled comforters!

The hard part was the gal right behind me had issues...she didn't ever talk, but throughout the flight she made strange turrets like noises...moans, groans, laughter, high pitched whistles...very strange...made for tougher dozing.

It's 2am prague time and clearly struggling with jet lag...hopefully sleep will come soon..

My SIL was just visting here from Moscow Russia. She flew Loefta (I think that's the right spelling) and said the new planes being manufactured no longer have separate air flows over head. A singular air control managed by the FA airs for 4 rows. Someone in her area complained it was too cold and the FA turned it off; so for 10 hours those 4 rows had to ride in the heat!

As silly as it may seem I seriously think airlines now have planes designed with the goal of making it miserable for their passengers.

Annie, I hope you post updates while you are traveling. DD and I are going to Prague in September, first time there for booth and I am interested in your impressions and your hotel :-)

Just returned from Europe on USAir. Sadly, I didn't get to upgrade but I was comfortable in economy. Plenty of leg room and the seat in front of me fully reclined wasn't a problem at all. I suspect the plane was old so maybe that's why it wasn't as cramped.

Get a load of this, there was one movie screen in the front of the cabin! I haven't been on a plane without individual tv screens since I don't know when. There were 3 movies, none of which I wanted to watch so the mediocre earphones weren't really a problem. I read instead.

Towards the end of the flight, I looked up from my reading and they were showing (maybe just starting?) the tv show Two Broke Girls. There is no way that show is appropriate for the mixed crowd on a plane. I've watched that twice at home, and won't watch it again, and think there are so many crude sex jokes and references that are part of the main story line so I don't see how they could edit without losing the thread of the story. I think its an inappropriate choice for children, and, obviously, there are children passengers. I will be mentioning that in my email to USAir.

On the plus side, we did arrive almost an hour ahead of schedule.

My guess is that domestic flights and regional carriers are the ones with the worst conditions. My flying is usually North to South-2 hour max flights-and you get the worst planes on those short hops.

Years ago I had to fly once a week for work to a town that would have taken 8 hours to drive to-it was about a 45 minute flight, so it was on a tiny little 9 seater. That puddle jumper was so much better than my last flight from Las Vegas to PDX on United.

I flew to Europe last year and went first class on USAirways. It was one of the jets that had been retrofitted with fully reclining seats (well 170 degrees), nice wide seats and plenty of legroom. I was lucky enough to have the bulkhead both ways.

DH is quite concerned about DVT and insisted on first class since I had developed blood clots after surgery a few years ago. He even gave me an injection of Heparin before the flight and made sure I was wearing thigh high compression stockings. He wanted to make sure I could elevate my legs, have room to exercise and sleep in a prone position. The flight was only 6 1/2 hours but when you factor in early boarding and the possibility of sitting during delays you could be on the plane much longer.

For shorter flights economy is fine but we have to fly cross country with one quick stop and I'll look for roomy seats or upgrade to first class.

Kelly, I totally agree with you. It is not just overweight people that are ridiculed or avoided. As pointed out - a nursing mother or mother of a very young child. A handicapped person may be avoided, etc. Never, ever do I use the word *F_T*. I hate that word. To me it is just as ugly as the "N" word.

I fail in this many times, but I try, TRY to realize that everyone has a story and I usually do not know that. Kelly's may have been fictitious, but I agree, we need to show some understanding, some compassion.

I'm hoping that reps from the various airlines are reading these stories of ours, although I (sadly) doubt it. We're driving with DD back to college at the end of this month and flying home after we get her moved into her sorority house and I'm already dreading it. We have another trip booked for mid-October and if there was any way we could drive instead, we'd do it.

My bestfriend's DH is a recently retired (major) airline pilot and he hates to fly these days. They drive almost all the time, even on cross-country trips.

Another good friend's son is a pilot for one of those private jet companies. I would LOVE to be able to afford to fly that way! Leave when I wanted to. No long security lines. No two hour waits in airports. Peace and quiet. Comfortable, uncrowded seats. Maybe in my next life (LOL)!

Tina, I do agree that everyone has a story. But implying that understanding and compassion is a reason for allowing the obese passenger to take up two seats when only paying for one is a specious argument. I have all the compassion in the world for the passenger who literally, took half of my seat. But that does not mean that she is entitled to my seat or that I am morally obligated to give it up because of my compassion for her. And in fact, isn't it a moral failing on her part to knowingly take something she knows does not belong to her?

I can understand someone stealing food to eat. I cannot understand someone stealing my seat in order to go on a vacation.

I don't blame the oversized individuals for encroaching on others' spaces. I blame the airlines when they *know* that people are larger than they were several decades ago. Yet the airlines keep installing smaller and smaller seats. Ridiculous.

It's not only that we're fatter, we're taller and longer limbed too. I didn't know many kids taller than 6 ft. when I was young, yet many of my kids' friends were in the 6 ft. 2 in. to 6 ft. 5 in. range in high school. Remember when a 7 ft. basketball player was a phenomenon? They're a dime a dozen now.

"I don't blame the oversized individuals for encroaching on others' spaces."

Say a manufacturer changes shoe sizing so that they are smaller than they used to be. Is it the manufacturer's fault when you are in pain for insisting on jamming your foot into a size 7 when you now need a 9? Or is it your own fault for not acknowledging that the sizes have changed?

Or, if the larger size shoes cost more and you try to shoehorn your foot into the smaller, cheaper size, is that also the manufacturer's fault?

I have no love for airlines, and nowadays a trip in the coach section of almost any plane is actually less comfortable than riding on a bus. They are trying to squeeze every bit of revenue out of the space available, and they've made it uncomfortable for everyone. However, knowing that the seats are smaller, the person who needs two and buys only one--- however sad and lamentable their life circumstances may be----is the only one to blame.

KSWL - I think this is something we'll have to agree to disagree on.

I think it's awful for someone to have to purchase two seats. Let's just think about people who are naturally "big" - not obese, but big boned, tall people. I can see where one seat is not large enough for them either. Do I think they should have to purchase two? No, I think it is a form of discrimination.

That's an awful lot of money to have to fork out. I think the airlines should take into consideration that people are not ONE SIZE FITS ALL. Awm is right - the airlines KNOW people are larger, but still they make the seats smaller. Why could they not make some changes? I don't think a person is to blame for not wanting to have to pay for two seats. I think the airlines should be more accommodating.

tina

Ah, but kswl -- your shoe size analogy: you have an easier choice when it comes to changing shoe size. With plane seats, it's prohibitively expensive & harder (what if the seat is already booked? The plane full?)

I guess so :-)

It just seems completely illogical to expect an airline to provide different sized seats for different people at no additional cost, even though there is value added. People will pay more for a bulkhead seat or an exit row seat, or for extra baggage, so why wouldn't they pay more for a plus-size seat? In any case, a larger seat would not have contained the person who sat next to me; she needed at least two seats. In the case of the very tall man, my guess is that he has to pay more for his clothing and shoes. Should the clothing retailers be forced to sell jackets and trousers for the same price as average sized garments?

I don't blame anyone for not wanting to pay for two seats; I blame them for not paying for two seats.

Perhaps someday people will be able to purchase a certain amount of square footage on an airplane, which they they can use for seating and baggage, or for seating alone. Until then, we have to deal with the reality of small seats, and we should deal with it fairly.

Awm, you're right about the cost of airline tickets, they get more expensive every year!

With respect to availability, people who want bulkhead seats or exit row seats have to book those much farther in advance than the other passengers. Why couldn't a person who needs two seats book them in advance as well?

With respect to cost--- I don't understand why that should be a factor. When you buy a bigger car, you pay more for it and don't expect the car dealer to subsidize your purchase of a bigger car just because you need the extra legroom or headroom, or because you have a large family.

It's interesting to see different points of view on this subject, particularly because I am a believer in a single payer health system that insures all citizens in the country, with or without mandatory contributions from employers. (We are employers, and we provide full health coverage at a huge cost and do it without regret.)

I'm curious to know whether those of you who believe an obese person should get half of my seat on an airplane --- or not have to purchase a second seat because they are so expensive---believe that same obese person should get healthcare paid for by taxation? One is so clearly a need and the other a want....

I am surprised by some of the comments here but I am totally in the "you get what you pay for" camp. The car analogy is the way it should be, imo. If you need more room, than you can always buy another seat. Anyone who doesn't fit into one seat without armrests down and no overflow and only buys one seat should be removed from the plane.
It's not a compassion thing, it's a business thing.

Re people who fully recline their seats, I have often been in a situation where that prevents me from using the tray table and if it is a short flight ( an hour to an hour and a half), I personally do not think it is asking too much for the average person to remain seated in an upright position for the sake of his/her fellow passengers. Since I don't like someone reclining his/her seat at my expense, I do not recline mine. Having said this, I know it is "allowed"; however, there are lots of planes where (1) the tray tables no longer function as designed due to the additional rows of seats that have been added and (2) the reclined seat encroaches on the space of the person sitting behind more than originally intended because additional rows of seats have been added. But having aired this beef, I do not purposefully kick the back of someone's seat as revenge for reclining and understand there may be special circumstances where a person needs to recline his/her seat so I suffer in silence. It should be noted I am average size, not thin, not fat, and I have been on many flights where the tray table is rendered unusuable due to a fully reclined seat in front of me so I understand dedtried's frustration.

Well, here's a far-fetched analogy. Suppose some poor soul was born with an irreversible, incurable disease? Let's call it Olfactory -ly Offensive Repetitive Fatulence Syndrome. Let us further suppose there is one seat on every plane that is a fully enclosed seat containing an adjustable, buttock -sized air hole. It is cramped, uncomfortable and a bit chilly. Àn FAA ruling demands he/she sit here. Is this fair?

Lol, Martinca, I've had a bad evening and your post made me laugh out loud! And your question is interesting. If the air in the cabin is continually fouled by this unfortunate person, I guess his choice would be to sit there, or not fly. Flying is not a right. There are other methods of transportation the poor sod could take.

True story--- my youngest son and I were on a flight in 2009 and sat a few rows ahead of a woman with Tourette's Syndrome. She suddenly yelled out, "Fire! stop, get away!" We had no idea what was going on and were frightened at first, until about four minutes after she shouted the very same thing, and did so with depressing regularity for two hours. We had remedy at our disposal--- I carry earplugs everywhere--- but many had no way to escape her shouting. What should be done in that situation? I believe that the other passengers should have been told about the situation and furnished ear plugs by the airline. Let's say the woman shouted an obscenity every four or five minutes. She clearly had no control over what she said, hod often or how loudly she said it. Is it fair for others to be subjected to that? How about parents traveling with children--- should they have to listen to that for two hours?

Soup girl, sounds like you need.... Knee Defender. See the link below, this is a product yu can take on board and it is not prohibited by law or FAA regs.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Knee Defender!

Oh man! Such typos! ( One was an unintended pun!) Sorry,and too tired to edit. Glad you got a smile, kswl.
Marti

I never said an obese person SHOULD get part of your seat. I don't understand why the airlines cater to "small" people. I just believe a little equality would be a good thing. BTW, I'm a petite person (5'2) and I personally don't feel that a larger (be it weight, height, etc.) person be charged more than me for a seat on an airline.

I take that back - of course I understand WHY the airlines have the small seats and are going smaller - it's all about MONEY.

The obese man who was seated next to me on that awful flight was so overweight that his rear and legs encroached over the seat break into my seat - he would not have been able to fit into the seat at all if the armrests had been in place. I personally feel that if the passenger can’t fit into the seat with the armrests in the down position, then he or she should be required to purchase a second seat! It’s that simple. Even with the added space by keeping the armrests up, I was still squeezed against the aircraft window wall, and I’m a very thin person.

As an example, my DH is 6’-5”, so when we rent a car, we always have to rent a larger vehicle, which costs more, to insure that there’s enough head room in the vehicle for him to comfortably fit in the driver’s seat. We anticipate this, and except that we have to pay more. The same should be applied to those who fly - if you require more room to be comfortably seated without encroaching into your fellow passenger’s space, you should be charged for it. That fellow passenger should not have to sacrifice THEIR space for someone’s else’s bulk.

What a hoot, kswl! I will have to add a Knee Defender to my Christmas list.

This exact topic came up during a friendly lunchtime conversation today. Several of my coworkers haven't flown in ages, and had no idea how much smaller seats are these days.

I agree that a fellow passenger shouldn't be allowed to encroach over into another's seat. However, if these folks haven't flown in awhile.....they honestly may not realize they can't fit into the newer, smaller seats. Until, of course, they get on the plane.

Can you just imagine how humiliating that would be?! One of my coworkers is quite large. I doubt he could fit in one airline seat these days. But he hasn't flown in over a decade, and I bet he has no idea he wouldn't fit until he got there. He is a really nice guy and I know he would be mortified - but once you're there, on the plane....what would you do?

Good point, and another excellent reason to widely advertise the seat size and have a dummy seat WITH armrests at each gate. Better to find out before boarding that you don't fit.

"Anyone who doesn't fit into one seat without armrests down and no overflow and only buys one seat should be removed from the plane. " I totally agree.

I don't believe that obese people have more rights than others. So if I am ever seated on an airplane beside an overweight person who infringes on my seat, believe me someone will hear about it immediately. I would not fly in those circumstances and would insist the airline personnel change either my or that person's seat. And since my travel agent will have booked me a good seat it better not be a lesser seat if I have to move.

The only reason the airlines are not more pro-active with pleasing their thinner customers is that too many do not complain about being crowded by someone else's adipose tissue. Also it seems that obesity has become the norm and that is the tragedy.

I'm appalled to think some of you have actually endured that for an entire flight.

I know that seats have gotten smaller and service on many airlines worse, but sometimes we have to keep things in perspective

Here is a link that might be useful: Louis CK on the miracle of flight (warning language)

Lucky, I'm curious to know how you would respond if F/A told you unequivocally that your request would not be honored (which is how I see it playing out in my mind:)). As snarly as they so often are, I can't bring myself to even ask for a second pkg of pretzels let alone a seat change.

>The only reason the airlines are not more pro-active with pleasing their thinner customers is that too many do not complain about being crowded by someone else's adipose tissue.

in which ways are the airlines pro-active with pleasing their clients, pray tell, regardless of weight? I'm dying to know about all the ways in which complaints are honored and addressed, please. Do tell.

Terriks,
Hahaha, thanks for the link.

The airlines don't care about your comfort. Although you think you are purchasing a SEAT, you are not. You are purchasing the transportation from point A to point B.

The reason why airlines don't have policies regarding obese people is because obese people have money too. Where will it end? Who will be the next pariah to ban?

I have experienced many uncomfortable situations on an airplane that I could have very well complained about.

Like the guy next to me picking his boogers and rubbing them on his pants.

Like the tall guy in front of me who reclined his seat all the way and picked at the scabs on his bald head the entire time.

Like the family with a screaming, kicking child behind me.

Like the guy next to me watching porn on his Ipad.

Like the lady next to me who's perfume application made me nauseous.

Or the person somewhere on the plane with such bad body odor the entire plane stunk.

If I purchase a seat, I shouldn't have to be subjected to any of these things that make me uncomfortable, right? But, whether you like it or not, we are all subjected to a social contract. We all have to put up with each others failings and that just so happens to make us uncomfortable on occasion. Of course it's not fair and makes us angry. That's a normal, natural feelings. But let me say again - how about a little compassion? How about a little less disgust for our fellow human beings?

On another note, thanks Terriks. Louis CK is my favorite comedian!

Very well said, kelly. " We all have to put up with each others failings and that just so happens to make us uncomfortable on occasion"- I agree.

Well said, Kelly.

I have to fly on occasion if a family member is sick but hate it. I hate having to pay to stand in line, have my ID scrutinized, remove my shoes in the same spot that a million others have, get felt up if my underwire bra shows up, pay outrageous prices for a bottle of water, wait 2 hours to be herded onto a cramped plane, struggle to lift my bag into the overhead compartment, and sit in a tight space they call a seat. Then, I worry about getting hit in the head with a bag being removed or the possibility of doing the same thing to someone else. OMG.
Now that we are retired, we prefer to drive to our destination and set our own time schedule. See the USA in our Chevrolet! (or ford, etc)

"How about a little less disgust for our fellow human beings?"

Non sequitur

I like flying, even in coach, because I can be at home in the morning and on the other side of the world that night.

Faye - I don't like flying either. Not at all. LOVE roadtrips!

tina

Terriks,
As they used to say on that TV game show - Good answer, good answer!
How can you have regrets in life (see other thread) when you have such a healthy attitude towards the discomforts of travel and a good sense of humor (see above link)?

I have to fly on occasion if a family member is sick but hate it. I hate having to pay to stand in line, have my ID scrutinized, remove my shoes in the same spot that a million others have, get felt up if my underwire bra shows up, pay outrageous prices for a bottle of water, wait 2 hours to be herded onto a cramped plane, struggle to lift my bag into the overhead compartment, and sit in a tight space they call a seat. Then, I worry about getting hit in the head with a bag being removed or the possibility of doing the same thing to someone else. OMG.
Now that we are retired, we prefer to drive to our destination and set our own time schedule. See the USA in our Chevrolet! (or ford, etc)