Raw potential is more than IQ. Many high IQ students, in all classes, do lack motivation you need both to excel. IQ's can only be hindered or improved by +/- five points. Infant stimulation increases it and higher levels of lead, but still under the level 10, can decrease it, both by about five points so actually IQs are still a valid measurement and any improvents are still not significant when the average is about 100.
I have not written off students, rich, poor or middle class, or I would not be so involved in the ABC house. I just think articles pointing out the "issues" never account for all the reasons for the discrepancies. They always blame economics, government and schools and forget that sometimes there are some people who can not achieve academically. These articles never mention how important alternative trade schools maybe to help eliminate poverty and unemployment for children of all economic classes.

If the government guarantees a free public education, I'd like my property taxes back then. Nothing is FREE. It is all paid for by someone.

And a lot of those someones who are paying the bill are fed up with having their taxes raised again and again and again and again for a system that has many, many problems and is, by all objective measures, NOT working.

I truly do not believe that we can tax our way out of all of our problems and I do not especially believe that the government does a good job at the vast majority of what they do when we spend trillions of dollars on wars on poverty, drug wars, etc. and all it does is make things worse!

Obviously, the government does need to provide certain services to the public that the private sector and community involvement wouldn't effectively provide to everyone and there needs to be some social safety net.

However, I think we need a major overhaul with much more power going to the individual states rather than the federal government, which is involved in a whole lot of things it was never meant to be involved in in the first place.

And I also think we need to recognize that there are inherent differences in ability and even with equal opportunity, there would never be a way to guarantee equal outcomes.

Trade schools! There is so much emphasis on getting into college and obtaining graduate degrees. It's not for everyone and everyone won't make it. This is a good option. I remember a discussion decades ago by a sociology professor where he was in favor of trade schools, referring to "all this education" (in a negative way). (And the expectation and push seems to be much more pronounced these days.) This was a Ph.D!

There is hope for many to learn a trade. One also does not need to go to college to get an education. There are many (successful) people who are self-taught. Learning how to educate oneself is something that should be taught.

re trade schools, excellent point. Our high school eliminated their tech departments and only offers a college prep curriculum. Such a disservice.

That's terrible awm. I know someone with a learning disability and trade school was the route. It gave them something they could excel at.

I'd never heard of the magnet schools. Thanks for posting about it.

roarah, when I worked in the high school here in CT, I was very much impressed with the ABC girls. So well grounded and mature.

Somewhere, somehow it became socially shameful to have a trade or skill. Some "elitist academic political" types decided everyone most be like them to be happy. Everyone should be highly educated and have PhD's to be "successful". This idea that a skill is less than a degree is so wrong and hurtful to our society. Most people assume that the profession with the highest IQs are doctors or lawyers or PhDs when, actually, the profession with the highest IQs is in construction followed by engineers :). We need to honor more than high marks and high standardized test scores we need to recognize everyone's potential.

And I also think we need to recognize that there are inherent differences in ability and even with equal opportunity, there would never be a way to guarantee equal outcomes

No one said equal outcomes. That is a specious argument. However, without the Federal government stepping in (thank you President Eisenhower and the 1954 Supreme Court), we would still have "separate, but equal" and the doors to schools and universities blocked not to mention dirtier air (want to live with the air quality they have in China now?) and water (did you like seeing pictures of the Cuyahoga River on fire or are you too young for that?) We owe every child the opportunity to reach his or her highest potential. We owe that to ourselves. I am more than willing to pay taxes and I honestly do it gladly because I don't want to live in a country with more stupid or unhealthy people than would be the case otherwise. So not free. Fine. We the people are providing that education for the kids. Does that make you feel better?

Beagles said:
"And I also think we need to recognize that there are inherent differences in ability and even with equal opportunity, there would never be a way to guarantee equal outcomes."

I know plenty of examples (including family and in-laws) of middle and upper middle class families that gave their children the same opportunities for learning and the children have ended up at opposite ends of the economic spectrum. Maybe not all the kids inherited the same higher IQs, but most of the time the sibling who hasn't done well had less ambition or was just simply lazy. So giving a child everything it needs to succeed doesn't guarantee that they will.

My mother will sometimes say that my sibling is unlucky in life. Sibling chose not to go to college, married someone with with even less education, and had kids early. Those were choices and had little to do with luck.

"the profession with the highest IQs "

There's another label that needs reining in. I was reading an article the other day which was discussing how people with the highest IQ's and education are not necessarily the most successful. There's much more to being smart and achieving success than the number someone has attached to you. I question measurements or testing like that anyway. I think it leaves a lot out.

It seems people are way too focused on IQ numbers these days. Like it's some sort of crown. Another elitist trap, imo. I think it's a distraction.

Nothing against being smart. I love listening to smart people. The smartest and most progressive leave their egos at the door, imo.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Wed, May 1, 13 at 13:26

" I am more than willing to pay taxes and I honestly do it gladly because I don't want to live in a country with more stupid or unhealthy people than would be the case otherwise."

I've heard this since 1970. Yet somehow the taxes we pay are never enough to do the job. I've come to believe that money isn't the answer. There are attitudes one must have to escape the bottom rung, and if you don't have that mind set, you won't.

Cyn said:
"I am more than willing to pay taxes and I honestly do it gladly because I don't want to live in a country with more stupid or unhealthy people than would be the case otherwise."

The problem is that the taxes keep rising and we get less and less in return each year. The system is broken, specially in education and health care. We also have immigration issues that need to be fixed. All the politicians seem to end up being the same, no matter what party they might have started with. Not sure how we fix all these issues, but just raising taxes to fund broken programs isn't the answer.

I agree snookums. Our school district and many in my area no longer test IQs anymore unless there is a concern that the school is not meeting a specific child's needs. I am only using the idea of it for supporting the concept that we do not all have the same abilities to succeed in school.There presently is no test to test for individual drive, motivation and confidence levels and these traits are just as, if not more, important for success in life.

The happiest and thus most successful,IMO, are people who fall in the middle of the curve :). It seems that if someone is too intelligent they seem to know too much to be happy. And if you are too driven and motivated you have little time to happy...:)

This post was edited by roarah on Wed, May 1, 13 at 13:36

"There are attitudes one must have to escape the bottom rung, and if you don't have that mind set, you won't."

I believe mind sets, attitudes and thinking skills can be taught and learned with exposure. It's a continuum.

We the people are providing that education for the kids. Does that make you feel better?

Nope. Because
1) Not all the people are paying, only a portion of them are. And unfortunately, those that aren't paying have no stake in actually creating a government or system that works, in keeping costs down, in eliminating programs that don't work and in fighting inefficiency.
2) We the people are paying too much for too many things that don't work. And instead of looking at why they don't work and trying to fix it, we just call for more taxes to fund broken programs.

The federal government should have some role, I'm not denying that, and there are some things that can only be done on a federal level. But the outsized role it has now is not good for anyone.

Such a concentration of central power is the absolute least efficient way to achieve many social goals and it concentrates the power in the hands of the beltway politicians who are inherently ruled by special interests no matter which party they are from because they couldn't get to the highest level of politics that they are it if they weren't.

"And instead of looking at why they don't work and trying to fix it, we just call for more taxes to fund broken programs."

It seems they're always looking at, talking about, why things don't work. That just seems to go on forever. Anywhere, not just government. I have witnessed this in the workplace for as long as I can remember. Talk, talk, talk. Same with the politicians and talking heads. It takes a very long time for big business to change. Then again, it does have to start somewhere. I just wish they'd get on with things and stop talking about them.

Well, I don't do enough. I am going to have to figure out how and what I can do to help someone beat the odds and make it out. That means something other than and beyond a donation.

I do agree with those who think the federal government is too involved with public education. I think No child left behind hindered all teachers and students with its new set of standards and now that is being replaced with the common core which seems to be only replacing NCLB with its own new set of silly standards. Yes, it is up to each state's governor whether to join but the fiscal incentive offered by the federal government is too inticing to decline. Every ten years the federal government decides to change the rules and expectations thereby confusing educators and students alike. Just when maybe the new set of standards begin to maybe make a difference they are tossed. People and the government need to accept that change is slow and improvements take many years.

This post was edited by roarah on Wed, May 1, 13 at 14:40

I don't think the education system is broken, in fact, I think it is outstanding (current emphasis on test-out notwithstanding, I am still holding out hope that it's a blip when viewed long term), what is broken IMO is our greedy, corrupt, short term thinking elected officials at the federal, state and local level, our social services network that emphasizes keeping kids in their birth homes when they are clearly neglected/abused, the inexplicable (to me) attitude of men and women who refuse to put their children first and our inability to stop meddling in world affairs, thus keeping the focus on others, not ourselves.

I live in a small town in a very rural area of a highly taxed state and I am *always* blown away by the quality of the education my 9th grader has received, but of the 62 kids in the class of 2016, not as many are thriving as ought to be, and it's not because the teaching stinks, it's the lack of parental involvement and attention. Blaming the teachers makes no sense to me, it's the parents who are to blame and our elected officials do not care because those are the throwaway kids, the underclass that everyone wants to pretend doesn't exist because the thought of it make us all squirm. No, it's much easier to blame the teachers and sabre rattle about taxes than make real, substantive changes in US society, even if the most radical of them would be short lived, for I honestly believe that if you "break the cycle" of abuse, neglect, etc., most kids will thrive.

Thank you for posting, cyn427.

sandyponder

Yes, snookums, you would hope they could be learned. Yet why does my NOLA friend have to work so hard to persuade a few inner city kids to go to an excellent magnet school where their talents can flourish? Why is there still a feeling of betrayal if you try to rise above the bottom rung? The importance of education has been drummed into us since the Great Society days. Why after 50 years is there still resistance?

I think there is another cultural factor. It isn't lack of drive. The underclass people I knew didn't seem any less intelligent or capable, and in fact seemed fairly happy. From observation, I think there might be some attractions to underclass life. Many services are provided for you. You spend time hanging with family and friends, and those deep social ties become all important. There are cheap fenced goods to buy. The more enterprising can make good tax free money until unless a rival rubs you out. You don't have to live life on a treadmill, with all the corporate headaches & politics. Of course this is a wild generalization, & of course there are severe problems, but from what I've seen, if you can navigate around the rocky obstacles, life may not be so terrible in the underclass.

"Just when maybe the new set of standards begin to maybe make a difference they are tossed. People and the government need to accept that change is slow and improvements take many years."

That is so true, roarah. It takes time for change to take effect. Something is tried and people expect to see results right away or it isn't working. Culture changes are even slower.

I see what you're saying, awm, about the culture change needed. I meant more when kids (or other people) get written off, considered not to be smart enough or to have the right stuff. No doubt they have to want to. There, I think the goal and task is to inspire. Exposure and developing a love of learning, to a sense of accomplishment, can help there, too, to self-motivate. Find a way to light up their eyes and curiosity. Light the candle of hope.

I do remember, when I was in grade school a very long time ago, nice area, that it was not cool to be smart. That doesn't seem new to me. Those kids were nerds and outcasts, ridiculed. I don't know what the culture is today in those same schools. It might be cool to have the highest IQ score now. The newer parents in the area certainly seem to be more involved and focused on early development and education than when I was growing up. I meet kids that seem proud of being considered smart.

This post was edited by snookums2 on Wed, May 1, 13 at 15:17

Is the article posted somewhere?

I can guess the content. Sounds like the discussions here are ones that take place over and over again-- whose fault is this? Why are some people rich, and some poor? Why do some people succeed (minority) and others fail (majority)? Whose responsibility is it? What actually works to solve the problem?

Well, here are my thoughts on the subject:

(1) Anytime someone gives me some examples of people who overcame adversity and made it despite the odds, I say, "Yes, that's a nice story, but that is not proof. It's an exception." It would be like telling me the story of Steve Jobs and shaking a finger of blame at me: Why haven't I accomplished what Steve Jobs has? HE did it, right? So should I!

(2) People get so caught up in whether x system works or doesn't, who is going to pay for it, that the argument of DO WE WANT IT TO WORK gets left in the dust. Do you really want equality? Or worse, do you want some people who haven't had more options to have them . . .and leave you behind? Hmm . . .

(3) Or, there's the other argument. Surely, we can't all be rich, right? Someone has to do work that is "unpleasant" for most humans, right? Well, let THEM be satisfied with it, right? They should be happy. They should be smiling. It's honest work, after all. It's good enough! It was good enough for (insert example here).

OK-- just read the article. Not news. My mom has been telling me about such studies for years . . .

I think it is HILARIOUS. Yes, let's blame the parents. It's the parents' fault. Lets not look at widespread social issues. Nope! It's much easier to blame families. And yes, it is great to help people. Working with families is always a priority in early childhood education, but it still avoids the question as to why there is such a HUGE discrepancy in the first place.

I ask my daughter . . .why do you think that the neighborhoods here of people who are living in poverty are overwhelmingly African-American? Do you think it's because they all just "happen" to be lazy/dumb/ignorant/can't get it together? Is it really such a coincidence? NOPE. Some people would say it's genetic, or those who might be a little PC would say it's due to "their own cultural influences," but I say-- it's because our greater society (filled with people who happen NOT to be African-American, by the way) WANTS IT THIS WAY. It is no accident.

I am currently reading The Poisonwood Bible. Probably most of you have read it already-- I ask myself, how could anyone get out of that situation? How can it be fixed? Then I realized, there is no motivation for it to change. I don't mean by the people themselves, but that change would be due to others wanting to help ($) in a tremendous way. Usually, help comes in the form of being altruistic (rare) or finding some profit in it. No profit = no help. This idea applies to our good ol' USA. Here, if there is no $ behind it, what's the point? G*d forbid we become socialists.

Anele, do you know anybody who doesn't want racial equality? I don't. Do you know anybody who doesn't want to lend a helping hand to someone in need? I can't think of anybody I know. Is our media unsympathetic to the plight of the poor? I don't think so. Corporate America actually pours a lot of money into volunteer public service programs, and seems to me wealthy/middle class people are very good about donating money & energy into programs to help the less fortunate. My church & diocese are practically a social welfare services operation. So are many other religious organizations.

So who or what is it in this nebulous "our society" that you blame when the components of "our society", people like you and me, are so very sympathetic to helping people get a leg up?

Who specifically WANTS IT THIS WAY? I honestly don't know of anybody. Do you?

There must be something else at work here, and it's not racism, it's not lack of interest, & it's not money. I don't pretend to have the answers, but whatever we've been doing isn't very effective. There's no shame in asking for a reset, a real effort to find out what needs to be done and why. I for one get tired of being accused of lack of compassion when in truth I care deeply enough to insist on funding programs that actually work.

I agree Anele. I wonder what all the middle class folks will be saying when the discrepancy between them and the wealthy grows even larger (as the article says, that is beginning-due to an economic factor and I don't remember that being pointed out before-that it will/does affect the middle class and is not due to racial or immigration factors) and they, too, are left behind. I can't even begin to respond to some of the ideas proffered here, so I think I had better bow out. I am becoming more socialist by the minute.

I just most point out that the middle class is shrinking that is true, but more people are still moving upwards not down. Poverty, worldwide, is lower now than it was years ago. Believe it or not things are getting slowly better. The media and politicians never portray this fact but it is true. The news will say the middle class is shrinking and everyone assumes that means people are falling into poverty but what the reports choose to omit is that it really means the upper class has grown.But that is not news worthy is it? :( Also violent crimes are lower now than ever in my life time but you would never realize this by watching the news would you?

edited to add the word worldwide for poverty in the us did rise betw/ 1971 and 2011 but it is going down again now.

This post was edited by roarah on Wed, May 1, 13 at 18:36

Awm, re: "Who specifically WANTS IT THIS WAY? I honestly don't know of anybody. Do you? "

Yes, I know who wants it this way. You do. I do. Most people who have comforts do.

What are you willing to sacrifice to change things? If you are like most people w/comforts, not much. Certainly, people donate . . .but only to a point, and that point is where we still remain comfortable. How many of us are willing to pare down to what we truly need to give to others? And, let's be realistic with the word "need," here. I'm going to guess that the definitions of "need" in the US among the middle-class and wealthy are extraordinarily different than those living in poverty.

Certainly, this sounds extreme, doesn't it? Well, it is. It will take extreme changes to make this happen, and it goes against human nature. Even socialism only works when ALL people (or the majority) are comfortable. For some reason, Americans are supremely uncomfortable with the idea of all people being comfortable. We think we need competition, be it in sports, schools, homes, etc. Beating everyone out is the ultimate in satisfaction and "success." Sure, we help others, but really, it's only so that we feel good about ourselves and can sleep in our large homes with a clean conscience. Oh, and it's to say, "Well, I am doing my part and they are still failing, so it must be them."

And Cyn, what I think of the middle-class-- well, we are being given "toys" (technology) to distract us from what is going on. As long as we can get by with enough, we won't think too hard one way or another.

Oh, one more thing. My daughter (11) is taking beginning ballet with others who are a little younger than she (8-10). Her teachers want to move her into the teen/adult class because there are several challenging children in the class who are distracting. My 6 y.o. and 8 y.o. would never have such behavior issues-- it isn't an age thing. They said my daughter is very motivated and mature, and don't want her to miss out. I didn't know this-- never complained or anything-- so this is the school's doing. Let me tell you . . .for SURE we are the poorest people in that class. The other children live in the rich suburb, and we in the working-class one. Another example-- a friend who grew up in the aforementioned rich suburb talked about how drugs were rampant in her school. I went to a large inner-city school, and I knew NO ONE who used drugs. NO ONE. I'm guessing based on its extremely large population (4K) there were some, but it certainly wasn't rampant.

Granted, these are just isolated examples that I abhor, but they do give me pause. There is a notion out there, I think, that wealthy (children) tend to work harder, make better choices, etc. Sure, maybe, but maybe they just have better connections . . .

This post was edited by anele on Wed, May 1, 13 at 18:15

Anele, lousy parents can be found in all socioeconomic levels. The sense of entitlement can also be found at all levels. The college I went to (more than a few years ago) in the northeast, was in an affluent area and supposedly it also had rampant drugs. I never saw it. I didn't hang out with or search out that type of crowd. I think any school, college, town, etc., whatever the income level, has easily available drugs, if one is interested in that type of thing. Just the way things are in the world today.

Oh please, Anele. I don't want it "this way." It's very unfair for you to say that when you know little about me or my background. Shame on you for saying something about me that's untrue.

I don't believe for a minute you want it "this way" either.

To clue you in on the mundane details of my life: We do live below our means. We don't drive status cars; I still have my 12 year old minivan. We live in a house that's ample for us, but certainly no showpiece (18 year old carpet in the FR, 43 year old master bath, poorly furnished BRs -- you probably haven't noticed, but I never post pictures of those rooms!). I have lots of thrift shop furniture. I wear jeans & tees. I don't own fine jewelry other than my wedding rings (tiny diamond, btw). We don't aspire to have nice things because we feel that's a hollow desire. My DH told his company to put him on the back burner re promotions because we didn't want the transfers or time away from the family, even though it meant giving up a better salary. Both DH & I come from working class backgrounds -- how we live now is luxury enough for us.

For 15 years we lived in places with high poverty levels: Memphis; Freeport, NY; New Orleans. We chose to live in the urban areas, not the white flight neighborhoods. We felt that living in the white flight neighborhoods would be wimping out on our principles -- we grew up believing in the desirability of racial integration. I sent my kids to public schools for the same reason. My son went to a magnet program in 7th grade comprised of 230 students, only 35 of which were Caucasian or Asian. We were comfortable with those life situations. Unfortunately DH's company was bought out & we were transferred to a little boutique town in CT. It's nice not to have to worry about crime & it's pretty here, but I can't say we're happier here than we were in our former towns. My youngest moved back "home" to New Orleans -- that's where his happiest memories are.

I volunteered or worked in public schools for 17 years. I have a high needs son that I wanted to keep an eye on, but then while doing so, I found I had resources to give to needy kids: I could tutor, I could organize, I could supervise, I could fund-raise, I could hug & praise & encourage. My volunteer work for the schools took up 6 days of the week, much of my summers, and many a long, long night. Some of these activities I funded out of our own pocket, never sought reimbursement. I was hired in our high school, but ended up working with kids in ways above & beyond the job description, as is probably the case with all teaching jobs.

So that's a bit about me. I have done my share to help the underclass, we have given our share of financial support . I have sacrificed and I have made effort. I have taught my sons to do the same. I didn't do these things for personal glory or resume building, but because it is the right thing to do.

I profoundly disagree with your statement that all Americans are uncomfortable with the idea that all people should be comfortable. There's logical fallacy in such a blanket statement, for one thing.

Sounds like you have class biases of your own. Do you resent rich people? I wonder where you would draw the line at rich. My DH makes a nice salary compared to the average person, but it doesn't go very far where we live, especially after putting 3 kids through college & still semi-supporting the two with learning disabilities. Then there are taxes to save for, and retirement too. We think we're very middle class, though you perhaps wouldn't agree. I wonder if you would resent us?

Anele, how much money do you think we should be giving? We have spend $15 TRILLION dollars fighting a war on poverty. TRILLION. Not counting private charities- that is government spending. And there is still generational poverty. We throw money at public education, job training, TANF, etc. etc. etc. None of it does one bit of good. We have poverty programs, free school lunch, scholarships, free tuition at state universities, affirmative action, head start, etc. etc. etc.

People are still in poverty and still making life choices that perpetuate the cycle of poverty (not prioritizing education, having lots of children at a young age out of wedlock that they cannot support or provide with opportunity, etc. getting involved in criminal activity)

If we took all of the money from all of the "rich" people in the U.S. and divided it up so everyone had an equal amount, how long do you think we'd stay equal and how long do you think the life choices that people would make would result in the same inequalities coming back within just a few short years?

This post was edited by beaglesdoitbetter on Wed, May 1, 13 at 21:37

Anele, Anele.

Saying it's the home environment, that it starts at home, does not mean it's necessarily the parent's fault, as you say it. Sometimes it is. If they're educated, for instance, but irresponsible. It doesn't take a poor or uneducated minority family to produce struggling, apathetic, or troubled kids.

"why do you think that the neighborhoods here of people who are living in poverty are overwhelmingly African-American?" Do you think it's because they all just "happen" to be lazy/dumb/ignorant/can't get it together? Is it really such a coincidence? NOPE. Some people would say it's genetic, or those who might be a little PC would say it's due to "their own cultural influences," but I say-- it's because our greater society (filled with people who happen NOT to be African-American, by the way) WANTS IT THIS WAY. It is no accident.

No, I don't think our "society" or some majority thinks that or wants it that way. It's because they've been oppressed. They haven't caught up yet. Things have come a long way. That's because people have cared. People have died for racial equality, fgs. This country stands for and continues to work for equality for all. It's difficult to fix the whole mess but hopefully not insurmountable.

Middle class will fall behind simply because our educational system has become too expensive. Just like medical care.

Chispa, I agree that bad parenting is everywhere! I would not say that drugs = bad parenting, however. The woman I spoke to (who did use drugs herself) actually came from a very stable home. I wish I knew how to prevent drug use-- worried maybe someday my own children will experiment. :( You never know.

Awm, I am not writing any of this to insult you or anyone else. My intent is not to offend, but to provoke a discussion in which we (general "we") are bitterly and brutally honest.

I understand, however, why you are offended, if you are. You have certainly thought a lot about this issue, and have put this into action. My comment may seem like a slap in the face as a result.

However, I still contend that you-- and I-- do not want things to change, if for no other reason, because we simply can't fathom it. First of all, I think we can both agree that the fact that you had a CHOICE in what you did has a tremendous impact on the quality of your life. You lived in urban areas . . .by choice. Sent your children to public schools . . .by choice. You worked long hours volunteering . . .by choice.

At the end of it all, you were able to have a car, have a home, and put children through college. Some people, no matter how hard they work (my mom just told me about a woman who is at home 4 hours out of 24 because she works 2 jobs at McDonald's) would not be able to say the same. And, it wouldn't be a choice. This is just fact.

Your choice is your privilege. You aren't to blame, and you do not need to feel guilty about it-- but you do have to be honest about it. You need to see that you simply can't understand what it's like-- it's like visiting someone in prison, knowing you get to go home, vs. actually being in prison. You can observe, you can read about it, but unless you are in the situation, you don't know.

As for resenting people with money? No, not at all. It makes me feel uncomfortable that you are asking me this, however, because it sounds like you are saying, "Don't hate me because I am beautiful." Do you assume I am poor? If I am, does my opinion carry less weight with you, because you see me as envious? Careful with that line of thinking . . .

I do resent people with money or privilege thinking they deserve it more than others, however, and that others deserve less. I am troubled by people who have money and are condescending or judgmental as a result. Or, fail to see their privilege. Unless you fall into those categories, I would not resent you.

Beagles re: "People are still in poverty and still making life choices that perpetuate the cycle of poverty (not prioritizing education, having lots of children at a young age out of wedlock that they cannot support or provide with opportunity, etc. getting involved in criminal activity) " Yes, this is why ALL poor people are poor. Yes. It is their own %^&$ fault. You are right. Sleep with a clean conscience tonight!

Snookums, I very much agree-- there is progress, but I think we are barely scratching the surface. Barely. I DO think society wants it this way. It is simmering there, though we don't look. We can't look too hard, or that would mean we'd have to make some really difficult personal choices that 99% of Americans would rather not make.

Interesting about the middle class and cost of education. My sis was telling me that Wash U is now $48k PER YEAR. Heh, heh . . .and good luck getting a job out of college to pay that back.

I agree with this: " It doesn't take a poor or uneducated minority family to produce struggling, apathetic, or troubled kids. " No, it sure doesn't, but if you are poor/uneducated then it certainly makes it infinitely more difficult to bail your kids out vs. having resources.

I absolutely did not say ALL people who were poor are poor because of their life choices. However, the behaviors that I mentioned are not exactly uncommon and they are major contributing factors to poverty and good predictors of whether someone will be in poverty or not. I don't think there is any denying that, or any denying that people make choices that can make their situation better or worse. Some people will always have more choices than others, some people will be forced by culture or circumstance into bad choices. But at some point, everyone does have at least some ability to exercise free will.

We do a lot to try to help people get out of poverty and it doesn't work. That is my point. There is something wrong and throwing more money at the current programs we have in place is not fixing it. I think we should do something to fix it, because kids don't deserve to be trapped in a cycle of poverty just because of where they are born or who they are born to. However, we need to think about real solutions and identify the root causes of the problems.

So, why shouldn't I sleep with a clean conscious? I don't lie, cheat, steal, break any laws, deprive anyone of anything, and I didn't make anyone else poor. I care about fixing the problems in our society too, even if I don't necessarily agree with some of the solutions that are proposed. It's not a zero sum game where everyone who has choices or privilege took something away from someone else or where anyone's success automatically causes someone else's struggles. Why do we have to take anything away from people who have privilege instead of trying to find solutions to make it possible for everyone to have a chance to find succses?

This post was edited by beaglesdoitbetter on Thu, May 2, 13 at 0:07

OK-- this is going to be my last post on this!

Beagles, of course people who are poor make bad choices, get involved with crime, and have unplanned children. FYI-- so do people from all walks of life. Do you think there is no crime among the wealthy? Unplanned children out of wedlock? Bad choices? Again, MONEY bails the wealthy out of these things. Wealthy people are not morally superior or inherently more responsible.

And if you can sleep with a clean conscience, more power to you. I know there is always more I can personally do, whether it be to donate more time or money, live on a lot less, stop buying new, etc. Heck, just driving is something most of us should cut down on, if we want to make a real statement to help our planet.

You say we don't have to take away-- I hope that is true, but I don't see how it would work. I am not privy to how the money you've mentioned was spent. Most likely, it was misspent, but that does NOT mean $ doesn't help. I know that funds marked for low-income schools, for example, somehow get used for other purposes, but it never shows up officially. I am not such a fan of statistics, as we know how easily they can be skewed.

And, Awm, I just read what you wrote: "The underclass people I knew didn't seem any less intelligent or capable, and in fact seemed fairly happy. From observation, I think there might be some attractions to underclass life. Many services are provided for you. You spend time hanging with family and friends, and those deep social ties become all important. There are cheap fenced goods to buy. The more enterprising can make good tax free money until unless a rival rubs you out. You don't have to live life on a treadmill, with all the corporate headaches & politics. Of course this is a wild generalization, & of course there are severe problems, but from what I've seen, if you can navigate around the rocky obstacles, life may not be so terrible in the underclass."

Frankly, I am shocked by this. Really? This is appalling to me. Do you not see your privilege and disdain shining through? Your lack of awareness of what it is really like? It sounds like you are making observations of zoo animals.

My mom worked as a researcher, living in conditions that would make most of you vomit. She worked with the "underclass," as you call them. Ah, yes, I suppose they didn't have the corporate headaches (ack! what a pain), but they certainly weren't just "hanging out." Is that what you think poor people do? Don't you understand that for many, many people in poverty, there is NO CHOICE? They can't just "get a job"? Or, they can, but it pays next to nothing? What should they do with their children? Oh, perhaps they should not have any. Don't have kids, poor people! Children in some parts of Chicago worry they will be KILLED on their way to school. Stupid kids and parents, not making education a priority! At least they can be fairly happy, in their simplistic, underclass ways.

I knew one person who got out of his bad situation. Dad was a pimp and drug dealer. His mom-- not around. My friend was very smart, and thankfully, his uncle recognized this. His uncle was the head of the neighborhood gang, and told everyone, "hands off" his nephew. My friend was able to go to college. Yes, even among the poor, connections are important.

I am going to stop reading this thread . . .it is just making my blood boil and that is no good for any of us. :)

Anele, there will always be poor people. You cannot help all of them, but you can help one, or two..., and make a difference in their lives. Try not to take the burdens of the world on your own shoulders. Do what you can to personally help someone and rest in that. Then help another one....
I don't have the answers but I do know that while I can't save all sand dollars, I can save one and make a difference in that life.

People risk their lives trying to enter the USA looking for the American dream. They come to the USA because that dream IS still possible here, much more than anywhere else in the world.

When did it become a bad, negative thing to work hard and be successful?

Anele, you want everyone to do well, but then you want to punish/hate those that have done well? How does that work?

I did my student aiding as part of my teaching degree 30 years ago now, in the Head Start program. This is not NEWS. This is why Head Start began. Socioeconomic Deprivation. Now I work with high school age students who were part of Head Start..you can give them a boost but you cannot change the fact that education is not a priority in these families...I am working with children of past students...job security Head Start did not threaten. Its a band aid--a good one but still just a band aid.

Anele, I stand by my observations. It honestly seemed to me there were some people who qualified for assistance who were getting by just fine and had no desire to change. They had enough to eat, help with medical, a place to stay, supports at school for the kids, and they were content. They had time to spend with their kids, extended family & friends. I'm not saying all poor people are like this. But some of the poor people I met sure didn't strike me as miserable (just as conversely, some wealthy people don't strike me as happy).

I feel like you're trying to shame me (Privilege! Disdain!) for making observations and wondering about them. Instead of having a reasonable discussion about these things, you're shutting it down with your emotional accusations. If you can come back with some evidence or experience of your own, fine. But don't point your shocked and appalled finger at me and say I'm full of feelings of privilege and disdain for people when I'm not. That isn't a discussion, it's emotional verbal bullying.

This post was edited by awm03 on Thu, May 2, 13 at 7:59

Regarding racism and the underclass, I live in an overwhelmingly white area, and our underclass is almost exclusively white (and a small % of Native American), and rural poverty and underclassness (if you will) looks differently than urban poverty and underclassness, but it's just as full of despair, misery, violence and hopelessness, especially for the women and girls, at least IMO.

Regarding anele's points, I get what she is saying, and I harken back to a woman I knew years ago who was the director of a child care center my former employer ran for our staff. She said that everyone is racist, sexist, classist and homophobic because that is how we were raised, not by our parents, but by society. She felt that parents could mitigate (or, of course, exacerbate) the larger societal messages and that it was our duty as parents, educators and privileged middle class and up people to do just that. This was almost 30 years ago, before I was a parent, and I'm glad her words stuck with me, they have guided me on my parenting journey. I try, and I have taught my DD to try to identify things that come to me with less effort because I am white, of the middle class, educated and, frankly, even because I am tall and slender (tho not as slender as I used to be, cough cough). I don't see anele as shaming, MHO is that is your reaction, awm03 and not anele's accusation, I see her as pointing out that you are viewing life through your prism of middle class (and probably white) privilege. It has been my experience that if you don't change that prism through which you view life, you can quickly attain a fixed view and that is how I read her words, which, again, to me, seem quite gentle.

For some thought provoking words on class, gender and privilege, read anything by Barbara Ehrenreich, a writer/researcher who focuses on the working poor. I especially like "Nickeled and Dimed", but all of her works are outstanding, scholarly and readable.

sandyponder

A very interesting fact is that for all the talk about our lack of a decent primary educational system for some reason we have the fourth largest percent per capita college graduation rates in the entire world. This indicates that our primary education system is not only not as bad as it seems it might actually be top notch. This is from the 24/7 Wall st study,
"College graduation rates continued to improve around the world during the recession, according to a recent international economic study. In more developed countries, the percentage of adults with the equivalent of a college degree rose to more than 30% in 2010. In the United States, it was more than 40%, which is among the highest percentages in the world."
Japan is #3, Isreal is #2 and Canada is #1. We are doing somethig right. I do think people and studies look to find flaws in everything sometimes. Yes we have too many people without basic needs but that is true everywhere:( It is not possible to live in an utopia:( we can only do our best and hope to leave the world a little nicer than we found it.

This post was edited by roarah on Thu, May 2, 13 at 9:38

No desire to change? How about no concept? How about no comprehension that life can be different? People who live in poverty, generation after generation have no choice. They don't even "feel" like they have no choice because it wouldn't even occur to them to have such a feeling.

I understand that this is a difficult concept. What with the world being at our fingertips these days. But when you live in poverty, you don't say, "Wow, I can be like that kid I saw on TV who overcame all odds with just a little effort on my part." They know that could never be them so why bother even thinking about it.

I've probably mentioned this too many times already, but just so you know where I'm coming from: I lived in abject poverty. Not as a child but I was a teenage single mother completely estranged from my family. I lived in a housing "project" with all the other poor people. When you live in a community like that, your neighbors become your family of sorts. You learn to depend on each other and spend a lot of time in each others homes. For a time I was one of the animals in the zoo the "privileged" like to "observe."

Education is key. Mentoring is key. Somehow getting people in poverty to start thinking, "I could better myself and my family" or "I don't have to live like this anymore, I want something more for my children."

I'm not totally down on our education system. I don't think it's broken but it could be vastly, vastly improved. I also don't think you can throw too much money at educating our citizens, it's THE MOST important issue that hardly gets talked about. Of course money is wasted in programs that don't work or aren't utilized to their fullest potential and that's where we need to start.

Anele, I agree with you completely on the concept that "we" don't really care about the poor. No, "we" don't want to sacrifice our comforts so that all people, our fellow citizens, can have food in their bellies and a feeling of self-worth. You know . . . "I got mine, you get your own" and "personal responsibility," etc.

That's as far as I can go this morning. Otherwise, I'll have to start talking about the human psyche and other abstract concepts of why we do what we do. I need more coffee for that. ;)

Such a difficult subject..... a couple of thoughts that always clang around in my mind when thinking about this.

We have to separate the plight of children born into abject circumstances from the plight of people unwilling to change their circumstances through work. Of course, many of these people were once children born into it... Nevertheless, I believe a society such as ours must do everything and more to raise that child up. For the child's benefit and the benefit of our society. Everything and more means free medical care, food, education, mentoring whatever it takes, directly to the child to the extent possible. Part of the problem is that 'free' generally means minimal, lacking, low-quality. If the children were truly 'raised up', they would have top-notch education, books to take home, high-quality food, etc.

Modeling, modeling, modeling. It is the most important thing we do with our children. All the blah, blah, blah in the world about proper nutrition won't undo the damage of our children sitting down to fast food dinners night after night. Talking is a "1" on the power scale. Modeling is a "10". So children who do not grow up seeing the adults in their household get up and go to work every day are at a huge disadvantage. I once had a friend who married a trust fund baby. Oddly, they had the same problem. Their children did not grow up seeing adults get up and go to work, even when they didn't feel like it, and it caused problems for them later on.

It's really just math. Other countries solve this problem, but they do it in ways we could never except. If there is $1000 in the room, and ten people, you could distribute the money at $100/per. If the cost of living was $80/person, everybody is happy. If on the other hand, the money is distributed so that 6 people get $10 each, 3 people get $80 each, and 1 person gets $700 -we have an issue. A total of 4 people can get by (1 will live like a king). But 6 people are wayyyyy below the line of what it takes to buy food, clothing and shelter. There are so darn many arguments and opinions on the zillion aspects of this... but to me, the bottom line is the math. Argue it any way you like, but don't pretend the math doesn't exist. The top 20% in our society control about 80% of the wealth, so that leaves 20% of the money for everybody else. In my math example, the top two people would get $800, and the remaining 8 people would split up $200. So the math is what it is. The countries who solve this problem essentially don't allow (through taxes, policies, etc.) the top 20% to accumulate 80% of the wealth.

My last thought is one that others have mentioned. We pay now or we pay later. We pay for high-quality food, preschool, etc. or we pay for expensive prisons. There are unmotivated kids in every socio-economic group, there are lazy parents in every socio-economic group. There are people who take advantage of situations in every socio-economic group. There are things that shouldn't be, but are. I can't figure out how kids continue to show up in our local kindergarten without knowing their colors. Seriously? And no, I'm not talking about children who come from non-English speaking homes. These are children who have lived the first five years of their lives without an adult invested enough in them to teach them 'yellow' and 'blue'... That child will sit, and be measured, next to a child who through pre-school or diligent parenting, may already know how to read. Somebody explain to me how that school is supposed to fix that. The only answer is to get those children at age 2 and raise them up.

Been on both sides myself. Raise nicely middle class, married to a working fellow-we had kids and a nice, comfy life-until he got involved with drugs and I had to literally flee in the middle of the night with my children and two suitcases.

From there I was a single mother on welfare. And let me tell you, unless you have been there-you have NO WAY to know what it is like. You DO NOT have everything 'free'. I was allotted a certain amount each month for foodstamps (fortunately my children were small so I was able to make it stretch the month but we ate a lot of pasta), no housing assistance, so I had to live in a crappy little apartment in a shady part of town (it was all I could afford-and I didn't have to come up with first & last months rent plus a huge deposit). We had no TV, my car was running on USED motor oil so we walked almost everywhere we had to go-couldn't afford to spend what little money I had on gas or bus fare. I did laundry in the sink before the next check came so I could afford to get it all to the laundromat. I had to beg neighbors for diapers when my son ran out because he had diarreah and I couldn't afford to buy new ones.

My kids had medical care, but I did not. I suffered with an abcess tooth until I found a dentist willing to work with me on payments.

I hated grocery shopping because of the scornful glares I'd get from strangers. People staring into my cart to see what I'd bought.

I couldn't get a bank account because I didn't have enough money to cover the monthly minimum, so I had to go to the store to get money orders to pay my bills. The remainder of the cash I had to keep on hand-it's disenhartening to realize you have $83 to get thru the month on-since food stamps doesn't buy non-food items.

I wanted to work-I'd worked since I was 15, but I could not afford clothing to wear to an interview, much less day care. (also try finding day care for an infant).

I got a very, very lucky break-my caseworker knew I was smart and had a work history, so I was offered a temporary job and I'd get day care assistance. Of course, the income counted against the food stamps, but at least I was able to pay every bill every month. From there I worked my way up the ladder (thanks to my work experience backround) and am where I am today-back into solidly middle class.

I did know a few people who gamed the system-but that was the exception. And let me tell you-that gaming doesn't lead to a comfy life-they STILL live on less than 15K a year.

As to having kids-yes-that is a BIG problem-made worse by the fact that access to birth control has been made virtually impossible in all but the most populous areas. (a different soap box).

I was lucky that I had had a very strong backround-I was able to make that time on welfare temporary-but I was almost beaten by the system, and let me tell you, it's easy to fall into that trap, especially if you know of no other life. No one extends a hand to the destitute. There may be one or two people who make a brief offer-but they're burnt out so fast-and there are so many to try to help, it's overwhelming.

I tell you, I even had a dentist chastize me loudly because we were 10 minutes late to the appointment. In front of the entire lobby he berated me-saying that I was lucky that he was even seeing my kids-he was taking a loss by seeing welfare patients. And the time I was on jury duty-and in the jury room the discussion about the defendant...the jurors were already convicting him because he got food stamps so he must be a criminal (he was eventually convicted, but only because the evidence was overwhelming) and when I told this group that I also got food stamps, they were shocked-I didn't fit the profile. (why, because I was clean and educated?)

Sorry for the rant, my 2 cents. I just want to say that unless you've been there, you cannot imagine what it is like to be impoverished and downtrodden.

I agree with some of the others above… No amount of health care or family support /home environment support will fix the bad cases. I am a living survivor of what can and does go wrong. I believe mentoring the kids is the answer as well. But how to mentor!
When I was young I had huge responsibilities for a five year old, plus I had health issues (mainly lack of hearing but other issues as well) that all contributed to my slow start. I was a very fast visual learner though. We had health insurance too but it was never really utilized. Coming from a small town no one wanted to intervene. Any intervention in the family support arena would most likely have made things much worse for me when no one was looking. A mentor of some sort would have been sooo fantastic though. When I volunteered at my children’s elementary school when they were young it was natural for me to help some of the kids where I recognized a bit of myself. Its funny how just walking by their desks making the slightest of positive comments when they were doing well would make such a big difference. I’m not sure how an assigned mentor situation would work though because when you come from a dodgy home environment you do need extra attention but you don’t want to be singled out in Front of your classmates in an obvious way.
I still think part ofthe answer is to have mandatory Todays Family (or other name) classes in high school before the clueless actually grow up and have children. It could involve basic communication skills, basic financial responsibilities, costs for an average family, and basic educational responsibilities of parents, the laws and parenting and so on. There are so many more men these days assuming the traditional mom role that I think a mandatory class would benefit all.

This conversation sort of reminds me of a conversation DH and I had driving our DS home from his baseball games. We take this little "back way" home to miss all the lights, and, in doing so, we drive down a street in a neighborhood that is poor, but, homes seem pretty clean and not "too run down". Each time we go down the street, I think to myself (and told DH) that it "seems" the people who live there probably have a much stress free life than we do. They probably don't worry about sending their children to the best schools in town, taking their children to this sport and that sport, that activity and the next, pay for tutors if their child gets a "B", private lessons in certain things, etc. Not to mention all the things I volunteer for at school and PTA and around town. And, make sure we have plenty of family time, which is the most important to our family. Sometimes it is mentally and physicallyexhausting-and I look at their little house and sort of envy their lifestyle!

I mean, what is wrong with not having tons of money and just "living"-not everyone measures success by all the trips overseas, high paying and stressful jobs.

Nothing wrong with trades at all, in my opinion. Not everyone wants to be doctors, lawyers, etc. that are so stressed and time-consuming. Believe me, we are friends with these kinds of people (very good people) but I would not want their life. We do well, but, not as well as they do. I'm sure it would be just as stressful being poor. I'm just saying the middle/upper middle class may be just as hard, because a lot is expected and always chasing our tail, because, we don't want to be poor, but, we do want to make sure we make enough money to keep us middle class. The middle class is not easy! I'm not sure most of the poor would even try!

Being a parent who wants their children to be successful takes A LOT of work whether you are middle class, upper middle class or poor. The super wealthy have people who can do and take their kids for them, of course, so they may not be so stressed-out.

Can you tell I am a stressed-out mom? But, I am glad for all we have and are able to have the choice in the first place, whereas, some people don't.

Just some "not-so-well" thought-out thoughts! HA!

I appreciate your post, Pesky, so moving.

I have been without a lot of money- although I never considered myself poor, technically I was, but I still had a car, job, apartment and health insurance and parents who would help me out with any major crisis, but the stress of not having money compared to other stresses in life, well, the not having money part is supremely high on my stress list probably ranking over everything else.
I can't imagine being homeless.....not having a car, being without utilities, frankly, not having health insurance ( a very first world concern).

Having $10 left after paying rent and electricity and no money coming in for another week with a two year old in tow is very very unenviable.

Thank you, kellyeng, you said it more tactfully than I was going to.

sandyponder

Thank you, kellyeng, you said it more tactfully than I was going to.

sandyponder

I guess some of us just are...very lucky. I wasn't really talking about THAT poor. I am talking about people working, able to pay their rent, having insurance with a job that doesn't pay well, but, not having money for all the extras I listed above, and maybe they don't even want to or care to go to the extra work we do to better our son in education. They still consider themselves poor.

Kellyeng, glad you had what it takes to pull yourself and your two year old out of it. I was just saying that most people, unlike you would not have the determination to get out of your past situation. It takes work! And, I was only saying it takes work to STAY in the middle class.

This post was edited by olliesmom on Thu, May 2, 13 at 21:58

Biting my tongue...