Try 1/4 tsp of the instant yeast per cup of flour, for that type of bread. With regular active dry, 1/3 tsp.

But I think it's equally important not to let the dough over-rise. You'll get that yeasty taste (which I also dislike) from over-risen dough even with the right amount of yeast.

And especially important: don't compensate for the cool temperature of the room in winter by putting the dough in an extremely warm place to rise. I think a lot of people raise their bread way too hot. Fine if they like a really yeasty taste. You want it nowhere near hot.

Well that might explain some of it CC. I used a wet tea towel to keep the bread from drying out while rising at room temp. but I kept microwaving the towel to keep it warm. Not hot but room temp warm. I figured if not, the moisture would cool off the dough. But I guess that would be ok too, because it would still rise wouldn't it? I know some breads can rise in the fridge if you let them sit there long enough.

I don't think just making the towel warm is a problem. It would not affect much of the dough.

LPink, I don't have any ideas regarding the grassy taste, but I agree with you about Beth Hensberger's bread recipes. I have the same book, and while I like the recipes I've tried, they have a strong tendency to overproof quickly. I think that's because of the amount of yeast she uses. I started using the recipes in the bread machine but eventually gave up because of the overproofing problem. Now, if I use one of her recipes, I cut the yeast and let the dough rise in a bucket, so I can keep an eye on it. That way, I don't end up with an expanding bread balloon that quickly gets out of control.

I've also made many of the recipes in the book and I reduced the yeast too. I think everyone is in such a hurry to have bread in one hour, the amount of yeast reflects that.

Like shambo, I remove dough from the bread machine as soon as it has finished kneading and put it in a dough rising bucket. Dough doesn't raise according to a timer in the bread machine or a clock on the wall, or the suggested time in the recipe. It can't tell time at all.... Dough rises according to the ambient temperature and humidity, hydration of the dough, and the strength of the yeast. The dough rising bucket is the perfect environment when you snap the lid on. It holds the moisture, and it's simple to tell when the dough has doubled. If it is at the 1-quart line, it's doubled when it comes up to the 2-quart line.

I only suggest placing plastic wrap over dough - not a cloth, wet cloth, or warmed cloth. If you handle the dough with oiled hands, the plastic wrap won't stick, but you can spray the plastic wrap with PAM or other vegetable spray, to keep the dough from sticking to it. It's better to allow a long slow cool rise than one that is too warm and risk over-proofing.

I would guess the "off" flavors are due to rancid oils in flour or fats, or an egg, if used, or from over-proofing. Over-proofing usually has a vinegar-like smell, and over-proofing is probably why it goes flat.

Check your local library for the video "Artisan Breads" The Baker's Forum from King Arthur Flour. It's no longer available from KA, and if you can locate a copy, it has so much information (a picture is worth a 1,000 words ;-). I also don't think all recipes necessarily work as a free-form loaf.

-Grainlady

Hmmm, I use really fresh flour and the artisan bread has no oil in it, just yeast, water and sometimes a little sweetener. At least I think the flour is fresh, I get Bob's Red Mill whole wheat and King Arthur white bread flour. It's the whole wheat flour that tastes grassy to me. Of course wheat is a grass so I get why, I'm just wondering if adding some toasted bulghur or something like that would help the flavor. Maybe I should try ordering some of the KA whole wheat bread flour.

So do you use the container for the final rise or what? When I use the dough cycle I'm not sure when to take the dough out because when I take it out it has risen so there's some cycle point before that I guess I should take it out beforehand if I want to have it rise in a bucket.

Oh, and I use the poke method to figure out when the dough has risen enough. I poke it and if it doesn't spring back I consider it ready to bake. When I do rolls, I can't really have them do their final rise in a bucket. Or are you talking about the first rise?

1. What you are probably experiencing are rancid oils in the whole wheat flour from exposure to oxygen and heat, combined with an odor from over-proofing. Wheat as a grass and wheat as the hard seed, have nothing in common for flavor. Trust me on this one - I grew up in the middle of wheat fields and participated in wheat production from seed to harvest. I grow wheatgrass for juicing and 25-years of milling my own flour and making all our breads and baked goods with it, and I've never experienced any flavors or aromas like you describe.

Try another loaf using a dough rising bucket to control your first rise and see if you get different results. Dough can over-proof during the first (second, optional rise, although it's not often used anymore) and the final proof/rise (after it's formed for baking).

2. Purchased commercial flour isn't "fresh". It may have been recently purchased, but the only way to get "fresh" flour is to mill it yourself, or purchase it at the mill as soon as it's been processed and bagged. We have no idea when commercial flour was milled, conditions during transporting and warehousing (temperature/humidity) and how long it's been sitting on the shelf in the store. Depending on how it's bagged and stored, flour can also absorb strong household, refrigerator or freezer odors.

--If you are considering adding bulghur, that's another wheat product I would suggest making yourself from whole wheat berries - fresh is best. It's susceptible to quickly going rancid from exposure to heat, light and oxygen; and it's mainly adding "tooth" (a grainy, chewy texture, as well as additional fiber), but not a lot of flavor. I do have a good recipe for Bulgur Wheat Loaf if you want me to post it. You can't mask rancid oils or that vinegar scent from over-proofing dough. As a foods judge at fairs, smelling the bread is an important part of judging, and can tell you a lot about it.

3. "Artisan Bread" means it's made by hand. After that, it's up for interpretation, and that interpretation gets very broad. What you are describing is a lean, light wheat bread, free-formed into a boule (ball). The term "artisan" is more commercial than anything else. Up until bread was made with some kind of machinery, it was all "artisan" bread - made by hand.

Some claim an "artisan bread" has to be made with a starter, not baker's yeast. Another interpretation may mean it's formed by hand, but the dough can be made with the assistance of a machine (stand mixer or bread machine). Panned soft sandwich bread can be an "artisan" bread. It doesn't have to be formed into a boule.

4. Poking dough with two fingers after the first rise in the bowl is an inaccurate method for testing dough for reaching "double" - use a dough rising bucket instead.

For the final proofing (after the dough is formed) to show the loaf is ready to bake, testing it by gently pressing it with a finger and leaving a slight indention on the surface is not much better for accuracy. You really need to be able to eyeball the dough, and make sure you are using the correct size pan for the correct amount of dough, and know the dough's rising characteristics. For instance, using a no knead - Bread in 5-minutes a Day recipe, those loaves generally don't "double" in bulk before they are ready for the oven. You'll also get a big difference if you form a flat-ish boule instead of a high dome. They also take different baking times, so bake bread to the correct internal temperature, not by time, looks, or the ever inaccurate - tapping on the bottom.

--Cover formed dough for the final proof with plastic wrap - it's not possible to put it in a dough rising bucket. The dough rising bucket is used for the first (and second - if using it) fermentation of the bulk dough, not formed for baking dough.

--Where many people go wrong -- they allow the dough to rise to the size they want the finished loaf. In an approximate, rule-of-thumb measurement, the dough represents 1/3 of the finished size, you allow the dough to double in bulk and that = 2/3 of the finished size. The last 1/3 is accomplished through oven-spring when the dough finishes rising in the oven.

5. Since bleached/unbleached flour is no longer bromated (added chemicals), it doesn't have the extensibility it once did and it doesn't stretch as far before over-proofing as it once did, so just UNDER double is actually a better gauge, and just UNDER double is nearly always a better gauge when using 100% wholegrain flour, or a mixture of wholegrain and bleached/unbleached. Whole wheat flour isn't as extensible as bleached/unbleached flour because of the bran.

6. A dough rising bucket is nothing more than an opaque plastic tub with straight sides and a tight fitting lid. They are available through King Arthur Flour, but I got mine from the local restaurant supply store for about half the price, where they are considered - food storage containers with a lid. I like those with graduated markings on the side, but a recycled plastic ice cream tub will work just fine.

--Just make sure the container you use has straight sides. A slant-sided bowl is also an inaccurate gauge because it's smaller at the bottom and flairs out at the top, so it's very difficult to gauge "double".

--I have these plastic food storage containers in several sizes to accommodate different amounts of dough, and also have round as well as square containers. It's all about the straight sides. The one I use the most is 2-quarts. My standard recipe for 100% whole wheat bread makes about 1-quart of dough. I know it's double when it reaches the 2-quart line.

--If you use an unmarked container, just use a ruler to measure where the dough is in the container. You could also tape a 6-inch ruler on the side of the container. Double the measurement of dough pressed in the bottom of the container and mark it on the container. So if the dough measures 2-inches, it will be "doubled" when it reaches the 4-inch mark. If you mark it with a piece of masking tape, mark whether the top or the bottom of the tape is the measure, or you can accidently be adding the width of the tape and over- or under-proof the dough.

Beth Hensperger's "Bread Made Easy" - A Baker's First Bread Book - shows step-by-step pictures and includes pictures proofing dough in a dough rising bucket (pg. 32), with the two-finger test as the option.

Keep at it.... Bread is the most humbling food we make :-). A trip to your local library may also provide books and videos that can help. Information and experience.....

-Grainlady

Well I'm not going to get wheat off the farm and grind it, but I do store my whole grain flours in the fridge and sometimes freezer, and buy in small quantities. I think the bread machine does two rises on the dough cycle, so I guess I'll just have to figure out when the first rise starts and take it out. I am very much inclined not to do the bread totally by hand. I have been there, done that and just don't enjoy it enough to spend the time doing it. I can get a halfway decent half whole wheat loaf so I may just have to settle for that or just do without. I don't mind trying a few more times, and getting a dough bucket wouldn't be that hard since I live right near a restaurant supply place.

I remove dough as soon as the bread machine stops kneading, and before the 1st rise period begins. No rising in the bread machine at all.

Check your user manual. I know the Zojirushi has a time-line for each of the settings indicating lapsed time for preheating, kneading, rise, stir down, etc. You may also be able to program your machine to stop after kneading is done. That's something I've never done, I just wait until the machine quits kneading, then I turn it off and move the dough to the dough rising bucket.

If you do skip the machine rise/s, don't just pull the plug. Make sure you turn it off at the control panel and then unplug it. If you pull the plug, it can mess-up the computer board.

The bread machine does such an excellent job of making dough, I wouldn't make bread by hand anymore, either.

-Grainlady

OK if I use a sponge, when do I incorporate that, after the first rise? And then just two rises, one with the dough and then one with the sponge incorporated? I am making mostly little rolls so I just free form them and I think I am maybe doing three rises which is maybe why I'm getting the "overproofed" taste. Honestly though, when I did them with mostly white flour, they turned out fantastic, great taste and texture, so I'm just wondering about what the difference is with the all whole wheat. The texture, crust, consistency, crumb, chew whatever of my all whole-wheat rolls is good too, it is just the taste I don't like. And I eat whole wheat stuff all the time so I actually usually prefer the taste of whole wheat stuff, like muffins for example, and particularly bread, the expensive store bought kind.

I just finished making Grainlady's 100% whole wheat bread recipe. It calls for an overnight sponge. I 'm also letting Alton Brown's bread recipe rise in the fridge overnight. It, too, calls for a sponge.

In both cases the sponge sits overnight and then is dumped into my bread machine along with the other liquid ingredients. Top with flour and turn the machine on.

Regarding taste, King Arthur Flour has suggested using some orange juice in its whole wheat bread recipes. They claim that the OJ seems to cut the bitterness people often associate with whole wheat bread products. I keep a can of frozen OJ concentrate in my freezer specifically for whole wheat yeast baking. I usually add 1-2 tbsp to my dough mix. Sometimes I add a couple of tablespoons of Carnation malted milk powder to whole wheat yeast recipes. I think the flavor compliments whole wheat.

I've been making Annie's honey whole wheat bread for a while now and I'm just going to stick with that. I never have any trouble with it, it's great every time. Dough cycle in bread machine then baked in the oven. As long as I make sure the dough consistency is correct, it comes out fine!

lpinkmountain-

1. Would you please post the recipe you are using? That would be helpful for everyone. We seem to be wandering into a minefield of extemporaneous information that may have nothing to do with the recipe you are making.

2. Are you using a sponge or starter? A sponge is a wet mixture of the liquid, yeast, and a portion of the flour. You let it sit anywhere from 30-minutes to overnight. The optimum (according to tests by "experts") is 2-1/2-hours. I prefer overnight when using 100% whole wheat flour so the gluten strengthens as it absorbs moisture, and the bran softens.

3. Are you using whole wheat flour milled from RED wheat or WHITE wheat? Red wheat has an acidic, bold flavor, while white wheat has a very mild, slightly sweet flavor. Most people who are transitioning from white bread to light wheat or whole wheat bread would probably favor the mild flavor of white wheat.

4. Sequence of events....

-Sponge - I mix my sponge ingredients in my bread machine, but outside of the bread machine will work as well.

-Mix in remaining ingredients and start your bread machine. Check hydration after it has been kneading for 5-minutes, or so, and adjust if necessary.

-Knead. At the end of kneading, turn off bread machine and place dough in a dough rising bucket.

-1st bulk rise in dough rising bucket - to just under "double", but no more than double or you risk over-proofing the dough. Occasionally you will come across a recipe that requires punching down and a second bulk rise, but that's not all that often in today's modern recipes.

-Punch down. How to: while the dough is still in the dough rising bucket. Lightly oil your hands and SLOWLY (it's not a boxing match ;-) plunge your fist through the center of the dough. Grab the outside edge of the dough and pull it to the center (the hole where you plunged your fist). Do this all around the outside of the dough. You have now essentially turned the dough inside out. You pull the colder outside dough to the warmer inside. This breaks up pockets of gasses and redistributes the yeast, so it actually has a valuable purpose.

-Place the dough on a Silpat (no flour necessary) or a counter sprayed with PAM or vegetable spray (I avoid using bench flour as much as possible).

-Scale (weigh) the dough if dividing it into more than one loaf, and then divide it into equal amounts.

-Rounding the dough. With lightly oiled hands, tuck the dough into a tight ball by pulling the dough from the top of the dough ball to the bottom with your hands, and shifting it a quarter of a turn each time until you have a tight smooth ball). Rounding aligns the gluten strands and makes for a smooth tight ball of dough that will hold the gasses in.

-Cover, and rest the dough for 10-15 minutes so the gluten has a chance to relax which will make it easier to form. I suggest covering the dough with a sheet of plastic wrap, not a cloth. I usually just put the dough rising bucket over the dough ball/s.

-Form dough.

-Final proof.

-Bake in a preheated oven (unless it's a recipe that uses a cold start).

Some other things that may need done, depending on the bread type: slashing, egg wash, steam added to the oven, etc.

-Bake to the correct internal temperature - checked with an instant read thermometer.

-Turn out onto a cooling rack and allow to cool completely before cutting.

Unfortunately, recipes don't give this kind of information, and most of us made less-than-great bread until learning the how and why of bread making.

-Grainlady

Thank you so much everyone!! I can't wait to try another loaf! But first I have to eat up these bitter rolls I made, lol! I did add a tinge of sour cream for some acid actually to help hydrate the dough when it seemed a little dry during the initial knead. The recipe called for gluten with vit. C which I did not have, I just had regular gluten. I made a sponge and left it out overnight, then refrigerated while I went to work and took out in the evening and warmed it up before incorporating it during the second kneading (but in the bread machine). I used hard red wheat, made for bread. I usually like it but I have not made many simple breads with it, mostly breads with sugar, butter, milk etc. But I like the really chewy, crusty bread myself. I got some great flour from the health food store last time, but this time I could only find this brand, but usually Bob's Red Mill products are pretty good. But I suppose it could have been old due to it not being a popular product. I think I got it at Wegmans. I might try ordering some from King Arthur, I was thinking about ordering wwht pastry flour anyway. I can't get it in stores now where I'm living.

On the plus side, I just found out my mom has a pizza stone hidden under her trays! She has probably never used it and probably never will. I may try out some bread with that too!

The recipe was for pain a l'ancienne, but I can't find the book right now and I'm sort of rushed. I won't be making it again for a while though. I'm not even sure if I want to use that specific recipe. It's just that the sponge helps give me the texture I like. I made the recipe for Italian style bread without a sponge and it was pretty good. That one called for instant potato flakes as a flavor enhancer. Using oj sounds fun. Reminds me of Swedish Limpa bread with orange peel and caraway.

L, I'm too late to help, not that I probably would anyway, but I'm sure glad to see you here! Welcome back!

akgirl, I really like that honey wheat recipe too, it's very consistent and it'll work every time for me. It's Elery's favorite.

This reminds me that I still have some of those wheat berries that need to be ground. Not until after Christmas, though.

Annie

I went to my local Meijers last night and found out that they had a brand of white whole wheat flour for a dollar less than King Arthur. I'm going to experiment with it, for both yeast and non yeast baked goods. I finally found my bread book, it was actually UNDER my laptop, I was using it to elevate the thing!

Pain a l'ancienne

For the pate fermentee (sorry I don't know how to make French symbols):

1/2 cup water
Pinch salt
1 1/4 cups bread flour (I used hard, red whole wheat flour which said "for bread" on the bag)
1 tsp bread machine yeast

For the dough:
1 1/4 cup plus one TBLSP water (Like I said, I added some sour cream later since this dough was too dry initially)
2 1/2 cup bread flour (I used the same whole wheat stuff)
1/2 cup whole wheat flour
2 tsp. gluten with vit. C (I used plain gluten, did not have the other stuff and have LOTS of gluten since I mistakenly bought two boxes!)
2 tsp. light brown sugar
1 1/2 tsp. bread machine yeast
3/4 cup of the pate fermentee

Instructions said after knead one on the dough cycle, cut in the pate fermentee. Then one rise in the bread machine and then shape the bread and let it rise again. I shaped into little round rolls. Bake aqt 450 for ten minutes and then reduce oven heat to 375 for another 30 min. I had to eyeball the time since I figured the rolls would take a little less time.