I use Betty Crocker receipe from 1961. 9 in.2crust pie 2 c flour, 1tsp. salt, 2/3 plus 2 level tbls. Crisco(white-plain) 1/4 c water. Mix salt & flour, I use 2 old table knives & mix until the flour has no particles larger than a pea. If it is not mixed enough you will have problems, you will see shortening "marble" through the crust. Add water & mix with fork only until it is forming a ball. finish gathering up with your hands. Dough that is handled a lot will be tough!! So it isn't floury or falling apart I use a piece of waxed paper & masking tape & tape all 4 corners to smooth clean, dry surface may have to use table if your counter is tiled. Once wax paper is down & you have 2 balls of dough(if it won't all gather quickly with your hands, just kind of patting it then sprinkle few drops more of cold water. cover 1 ball with wax paper in bowl while you take other 1 & sprinkle very little flour on wax paper in about a 6-8 in circle put ball on it cover with 2nd piece of wax paper roll out about 6 in wide & lift off waxed paper & turn over-the floured side is up now, cover with wax paper & roll out 1st left to right couple of times & then up & down so it stays a circle, don't be trying to squish it, roll it out, set your pan on top & you should see crust about 2 in or more all around, you need enough to go up sides of pan & to make an edge. When it looks right, remove top wax paper carefully,if it starts to break go to different area & peel back. When top wax paper is off turn pan upside down on pie circle & remove the masking tape on bottom waxpaper by carefully pulling back so you can put it down again for 2nd crust. When you have all 4 corners of wax paper free flip the waxpaper with crust & pan over,you can grip it with both hands,Crust is now in pan, get it evenly placed & peel off waxpaper,then fit crust into bottom & up sides fill & stick the waxpaper down on table using same tape as before roll top crust & edge however you like. Never falls apart this way,& not floury. Cleanup just take the 2 sheets of wax paper & toss in trash. If you use this method you should have good results every time. You can use the wax paper with any receipe but if has egg & vinegar etc may need bit more flour, if it is sticking & can't roll it off paper with your finger it needs more flour. Just make sure you don't shortcut mixing the salt/flour mixture with Crisco or you will have problems. If there is a gob of Crisco it will stick to waxpaper.Last yr. 11 yr old granddaughter wanted to learn how to make pumpkin pies, I said great. Was she surprised when she had to do all the work & grandma just watched & told her pretty much what I just said above. She took home 2 beautiful pies. Only thing she couldn't get was flipping the pan & crust on waxpaper over. I think she was afraid she would drop it. I did put them in oven & took them out of oven. She's quite small & I didn't want her to get burned.She was very proud of herself & I told her I thought I "learned" how to wallpaper until I was alone & then had to have friend come back & make me do it so I really knew how, watching someone often is not enough! Good Luck! Jan

Lard has a larger fat crystal than other fats, which is one reason it works so well in pastry. Butter gives great flavor but has a lot of water in it and it melts quickly. The combination of lard and butter in pastry is a great twosome. When I use coconut oil (frozen and grated on the large hole on my box grater), I can reduce the amount of fat by about 25 percent, especially when using pastry flour or milling soft wheat or low-gluten spelt into flour to use for pastry. Good pastry is a combination of tenderness and flakiness and each characteristic is developed differently. Pastry is all about reducing the gluten development in the flour, so choose flour (pastry flour or Southern All-Purpose flours like Martha White, White Lily, Gladiola, Red Band) that has a low protein/gluten content to begin with as a great way to reduce gluten-development up front. If you want more tender pastry while using all-purpose flour you can add a little more fat and add an acid ingredient. Divide the cold fat in two portions and mix one half in the flour until it's very finely mixed. This will coat the flour so it develops the gluten in short strands (hence short-crust pastry) when the liquid is mixed in and will give a tender crust. Quickly add the remaining fat and keep it in larger blobs. When the heat of the oven melts the blobs of fat the steam will raise those layers in the pastry we recognize as a flaky pastry. Vinegar in a recipe is another way to decrease the gluten-development. Adding an acid brings one more tenderizer into play. "Acids soften gluten, breaking apart gluten strands and keeping the pastry tender." When eggs are used in a pastry recipe it is best used for something like a meat pie. The protein from the egg will reinforce the structure of the pastry, making it strong enough to hold a hefty filling. When liquid vegetable oil is used to make pastry it is considered a "warm fat", which coats each particle of flour so completely than no gluten develops. Oil pastries are very tender and tend to be more mealy than flaky since you don't have steam raising those flaky layers. Oil pastry is generally easier to handle and is easy to roll between two sheets of waxed paper. It's neither right or wrong what type of pastry you make - it's just one of those cooking/baking choices we make - BUT - as a general rule of thumb don't take an oil pastry to the fair because it will tend to get judged down because they rarely come up to judging standards. If a sticky dough that is hard to roll-out is your problem, you have too much gluten developed - probably from adding too much liquid and/or using flour that has a high protein content. Northern all-purpose flours like King Arthur and Robin Hood really don't make good pastry because of the high amount of protein. Add as little water as possible!!! As soon as lumps of dough stick together during mixing, stop mixing and adding water. It takes very little extra water, as little as 1/2 teaspoon, to quickly toughen the dough. -Grainlady

I meant that low and slow doesn't work for me, reaction to the Serious Eats article. The crust doesn't come out "right", and it does at 425° F, so I just stick to that and haven't worked out why's and wherefores, but that's a wheat, butter, water, salt pastry. Jasdip, if you were talking about an egg dough crust, that could be entirely different--I don't know Nathan, but I just had a memory of you talking about liking an egg dough crust some time back. That would make me think even more that the shrinkage is a moisture issue. I've only made that GF one, and only once. It was for a quiche, and I remember what it looked like after I blind baked it, but I don't remember if I did it as usual or if I had some other tip in mind at the time. Thinking further... Since it works fine with filling, I still think the issue is that it's getting too dry. That would be a vote for a lower temperature... You didn't say the temperature you were using within the range. If it's been 420° F, maybe try 375° F...

Mamapinky, it doesn't taste "porky", but it does have some kind of chemical they add to make it whiter and some preservative or another, BHA and BHT. The brand most often available here is Armour and it has a list of chemicals, as does Tenderflake. If you can find a refrigerated brand that might be better. If not, try a local Hispanic grocery, they use a lot of lard and it tends to at least be fresh. There are brands available like Proper Foods that are just pure lard. There are also many brands on Amazon, but you'll pay dearly for them. If I didn't have pure lard, I'd probably take a page from AnnT's book and just use butter. It's actually easy to render lard, but the real reason I do it is because if I put all that time and work into a pig, I'm using it ALL. I think it's disrespectful to the animal to be wasteful of it. I do often use this recipe from CanaryBird, who used to post here before her death. It's easy to handle, more malleable than my Grandmother's old pastry recipe! It does call for lard, but I've used butter instead. Like Rusty mentioned, Crisco is worse than it used to be, so I try to avoid it but if you have a good all vegetable shortening you like, it could be used here, I'm sure. I do know that Madonna/bcskye used this recipe in her food processor. It does make a lot, so there's enough crust there for an entire half sheet "slab" pie, that's a plus, but if you don't use it all you can freeze a couple of discs for later use, it freezes well. I find it easy enough to work with that I don't even refrigerate it before I roll it out, that's a plus for me. NATHAN'S NEVER FAIL PASTRY ********************************** These quantities make enough pastry for 3 double-crust pies or 3 1/2 dozen tart shells - muffin size. 5 cups flour 1 teasp salt 2 teasp baking powder 1 lb (454 grams) Tenderflake lard 2 teasp white vinegar 1 egg - slightly beaten. Add water to vinegar and egg to make 1 cup 1) Mix together flour, salt and baking powder. Cut in lard until crumbly (using two knives.) 2) Add liquid and mix gently with hands. (I use a fork to help me here.) Roll into a ball. 3) Roll out amount needed on a floured board. Refrigerate or freeze remainder. Source: 'I've GOT To Have That Recipe' Doubleday Canada - Victoria, B.C. 1986 sharoncb's tip: After step two I often put it in the fridge for an hour to make it firmer and easier to roll out. Good luck and Happy Thanksgiving. Pie is always good, especially if you're like me and the filling is the best part! Annie