That's a lot of kneading, and should be enough. The wheat gluten does make the dough require more kneading, though. The lumpy vs. smooth loaf is more likely due to shaping problems.
I know nothing about the influence of hi-maize. You are replacing one-fourth of the flour with hi-maize? It's hard to imagine that the result is similar with and without it! Maybe you meant 1/4 cup?
Two suggestions: first, make the bread as written. See if the result is better; then make your changes.
Second, try white whole wheat flour for fiber. It may get past your objections.

For hand kneading, I make my bread just the opposite way. I mix up the liquid stuff and add the dry to that.
When it's heavy enough to get my hands in, I knead and only knead in as much flour to make a smooth dough.
You need more liquid in the recipe you are using.
Try this:
Put 2 cups of luke warm water in a bowl....add 2 yeast packets or equivalent in bulk yeast and a Tablespoon of sugar
Then measure your high maize that you would use and the high gluten flour and add enough white flour to make 1 1/2 cups or so...add 2 tsps of salt, stir the dry mixture and add it to the liquid...stirring out any lumps...
When it's smooth, let it sit for about 10 minutes to let the high maize absorb liquid and then begin stirring in more flour and more flour and stirring until you can knead it...Keep kneading adding a little flour as you go, until it's smooth and elastic and not sticky.....about 7 or 8 minutes.
Then turn the dough into an oiled bowl, let rise un til almost double, punch down and let rise again....then turn out on a board and beat out all the air....flatten it out really well. divide in half, and roll each flat half up into a baguette shape....place on a cornmeal covered peel, cover with oiled saran and let rise until almost double. Preheat your oven with a stone to 450 and...slash the loaves and scoot them into the oven....shut the door and bake for about 25 minutes.
You can spray with water before popping into the oven...or you can put a pan of water on the bottom of the oven...or not!
The object when making bread is not to add lots of flour, but only enough to make a non sticky dough.
Linda C

Cloudy, that's not a typo-- I am substituting one forth of the flour for hi-maize. As mentioned in the original post, I have tried the recipe both ways, and found it quite hard to knead with just flour too. The texture of hi-maize seems pretty similar to flour, but I think the recommend substitution is only like 10%, and I could give that a shot if people think it would help.

As also mentioned in the original post, I do not want to use whole wheat flour. I've done it plenty of times, and I don't like it. Pro whole wheat propaganda is strongly discouraged on my thread :-P. If I wanted to eat bread with the texture and taste of shoe leather, it would take much less effort to buy some of that pre-sliced stuff from the grocery store.

Lindac, that sounds like extremely helpful advice. Right now I am using hi-maize, a couple tablespoons of straight gluten, and bread flour. (No all-purpose flour). Is that too much gluten?

The difference in gluten between bread flour and AP is maybe 1%....don't think it matters much....but half high maize?
I, too was thinking like maybe half a cup to 4 cups of regular flour.
Are you trying to up the fiber?
If so I would try adding wheat or oat bran...according to my box it contains 24 grams of fiber per cup but only 3 grams of insoluble fiber....where my box of oat bran says it contains 6 grams of insoluble fiber per cup.
If you are trying to boost fiber to promote good regulation of the digestive tract you want to use insoluable fiber, like corn bran or hi maize flour....but if you are seeking to lower cholesterlol and regulate your blood sugar and delay that hungry feeling, soluble fiber is what you want....i.e. oat bran.
Linda C

Cool. It's not currently half, it's one forth. I can reduce it to 10% though-- I think that would probably still be a pretty decent fiber content.

You can't fool me!! White flour + Bran = whole wheat flour!!

Again....it's what kind of fiber....soluble fiber is what lowers the bad cholesterol....and high maize, according to what I read has none of that.
And....really wheat bran doesn't taste like whole wheat....
If want to up the fiber without the whole wheat taste try adding oat bran...and honey....and perhaps some hazel nuts and dried blueberries....then slather on the butter and you won't even know it's healthy bread!
Linda C

If you can post your recipe and/or pictures we may be able to help you more.

I have been making breads for 20 years, and my tried and true method dated back to the first day I attended my college cooking class. We made a loaf of basic white bread with some no-brainer ingredients to eliminated unnecessary mishaps. I still remember how the dough felt under my hands and between my fingers, how it looked and smelled and how warm it was. Not only I felt in love with bread making that day, I also discovered the only sure way to know if the dough is ready is by touching, smelling, and feeling it. I always tell the people I teach "let the dough talk back to you."

I probably have 20 bread recipe books and I have tried recipes from different parts of the world. It is true that each type of bread dough has a different feel to it. Except for some very stiff (i.e. pumpernickel) or soft (i.e. ciabatta) most dough fall somewhere in the middle. But if you don't know how an average dough supposed to feel like, there's no way to tell if your dough is ready. Some suggested using the window pane test yet again it is not a fool proof method for every recipe.

An important thing is that you need to be able to handle a basic dough without having it falling apart or sticking all over your hands and fingers. It is true that if you cannot handle the dough, you won't be able to shape it. Resting the dough does make it easier for shaping but it depends on the hydration level of your dough and if the liquid being distributed evenly. There are many ways to knead a dough and I have done most of them. No one method is better than others but you find one that you feel more comfortable with.

Go back to your hi-maize ingredients. If the purpose of hi-maize it to boost fiber contents, there are other ways to do it. Flax and chia seeds provide very good fibers and healthy fats. Like Linda's suggestion, brans are very good source of fibers as well. To me maize (especially large amount) is just a bit too coarse and heavy for beginners to handle.

Why not try making a loaf of white bread (or 50/50 white/wheat) to feel it in your hand. You can always give it away if you don't want to eat it. It serves the purpose of an experiment to help you better understand your dough. Once you get that "right" feeling, you can try adding, a bit at a time, different ingredients to boost the fiber content.

Take pictures of your dough and the finish bread, post them here or other bread forums and let more experienced bakers share their thoughts/suggestions with you. This approach works for me and a lot of others and may work for you as well.

Happy baking!

Al

Insoluble fiber is a-ok with me. I probably don't have high cholesterol (none in my family, not overweight, and I eat a lot of vegetables and olive oil and such), and I also get a lot of soluble fiber elsewhere. The high maize website does say it's insoluble fiber, but also that it has prebiotic properties, which I thought was synonymous with soluble fiber (soluble= broken down by bacteria in the intestines= prebiotic?) It doesn't especially matter to me which it is, but I'm still curious.

Recipe:

2 1/2 tsp dry yeast
3 1/2 cups bread flour
1/2 cup hi-maize
2 tbsp gluten
2 1/4 tsp salt
1 2/3 cups water
Pinch of sugar

I use warm water, stir a pinch of sugar into it and sprinkle the yeast on top. I let that sit for 10 minutes, and mix together all the dry ingredients, then pour the yeast mixture in and mix with my hands, knead 8, rest 8, knead 8. The recipe calls for 3 rises-- in the bowl to 1 1/2 times, punch down + redistribute yeast

Sorry, no picture, but the dough breaks when I pull it the tiniest bit. It doesn't feel stretchy and I definitely can't get a windowpane. It is very dense, very hard to work with. It doesn't form a smooth ball-- it has tears and holes.

Sorry to dig my heels in here, but I don't want flax or bran (I do not like them, Sam I am!) I want to learn to use hi-maize more effectively. I already like my misshapen loaves much better than whole grain (and it can only get better from here, right?), so I think it's better for me to continue working with hi-maize/flour than plain white flour (which I don't want to get used to) or whole wheat flour (which I don't like, and therefore don't need to learn). However, suggestions like decreasing the amount and trying a looser dough are very much appreciated.

Ditto what Al said....you either learn to knead bread and what the texture should be from your mother or grandmother in a couple of "Ah ha" moments...or you have to painstakingly teach your self.
Start with the basic flour water salt and yeast bread....and when you have that....move on to the next.
My time when I really began to feel confident as a bread baker, came when I was about 24. I had made pread before...maybe about once a month but always with a recipe in hand and sort of timorously.
We were down at the shore in a rental....and we had an excess of milk...and every one was at the beach and I was stuck with a napping baby...don't know why but there was yeast in the cupboard...likely left from the last tenant.
So I winged it...flour, milk, yeast...a little sugar....mixed until I could knead it...kneaded it...let it rise...beat it down and looked for something to bake it on....found a 10 by 13 or so roasting pan...so I turned it over and formed that bread into a sort of loaf and baked it.
It was such a hit that I baked bread about every other day during that time and made me a confident bread baker.
Hang in there...try my method of starting with the liquid and adding flour until it feels right....and soon you will learn what that feel really is.

Not an expert by any means but I read somewhere, the general rule of thumb is not to knead more than 10 minutes by hand or more than 2 minutes with a mixer (at speed 2) between rises. So far that's worked for me!

Well, my mother uses a bread maker, and I've never seen my grandmother make anything with yeast, so bring on the pain :-/

I'm going off to give the following a shot:

2 1/2 tsp dry yeast
3 cups bread flour
1/3 cup hi-maize
2 tbsp gluten
2 tsp salt
1 2/3 cups water
Pinch of sugar

I will take some pictures of the dough shortly.

After ingredients are incorporated:

{{!gwi}}After first kneading:

{{!gwi}}After second kneading:

{{!gwi}}{{!gwi}}It seems better. It was a lot easier to knead (no bruised knuckles! It felt a little sticky, but it also seems more stretchy.

It is rising BEAUTIFULLY. But I have to go to bed, so I'm going to put it in the fridge and hope it doesn't deflate or over-rise :-)

Looks pretty good so far. Please keep us posted. Al

Looks good!

Looks great....what did you do differently?
I would deflate it just before I turned in...
Linda C

Just a bit less flour and hi-maize (recipe above). How much do you think it'll rise in the fridge overnight? If I want to bake it in the morning, I'm not sure if I should punch it down or let it be. My previous dough didn't rise much in the fridge, but this one seems to be a much better riser-- I think it doubled in about 30 or 40 minutes.

I'd knock it down. But I'm making that judgment based on my own weekly experience. Even when I knock the dough down before refrigerating it will rise right up to the top of an 8 quart bucket. (8 cups of flour).

Ann

What ever you do you will need to allow it a couple of hours at least to come to room temp before it begins it's last rise.
Knock it down and get some fresh air into the dough.

I did punch it down right before I went to bed, but when I checked on it in the night (about five hours later), it wasn't rising sufficiently. I took it out and put it on a heating pad, and when I woke up it looked just right.

The shape is smooth and just what I was looking for. 30 minutes at 450 is too long for this loaf, though-- you can see it's brown. Next time I'll have to try 20 or 25 and go from there.

{{!gwi}}Thanks for all the help everyone :-) I'm happy.

Congrats! Looks like a good tasting loaf to me. In fact, this type of bread is supposed to have a very thick and brown crust, to contrast the soft crumb. But if you don't like crust too thick, you can always cover the boule with tin foil, 15 - 20 minutes into baking then finish it according to the recipe. If you do want to try 20 minutes, use an instant thermometer to make sure it reaches 200F internally and let it continue to "cook", outside the oven, for an hour or two - ideally completely cooled. In that case, the boule will stay full and the crumb won't shrink.

If you are still interested in adding more hi-maize into the loaf in your future baking, you can do so by adding an extra TBSP at a time. Or you can form the boule then work some extra maize onto the surface for a crunchier crust.

Good job! Happy baking! Al

It's beautiful! I sure don't think that crust is too brown!
I and I sure wouldn't cook it less time, perhaps turn the oven to 425...but don't cook it shorter time or the inside won't be done and will be "gluey".
I'll bet that makes heavenly toast!
Linda C

That is a gorgeous loaf of bread. I agree that the crust isn't too brown at all.

Ann

Interesting. The crust wasn't too thick for me, but it tasted a little bit burnt. When I did it the old way, it didn't look that brown. Maybe this is a product of the shape (never done round before), or the looser dough, or the fact that I put it in the oven as soon as the preheat light went on (usually I think I procrastinate for a few minutes, at least until the heating element stops being orange) but ideally, I'd like it a little lighter. I'll play around with the next loaf and see how I go- I was very happy with the texture of the inside though.