Many times.....and if I may boast just a tad....yes I know Mom I shouldn't....it was a feature recipe in the Penzey catalog last Fall. Suoer easy and super good!

Stacked Pizza

7 sheets phyllo pastry
1/2 Cup butter melted
7 Tbl freshly grated parmesan
1 1/2 Cup grated mozarella
1 sweet onion sliced thinly and Separated Into Rings
5-6 roma tomatoes, sliced
1 Tsp oregano
salt and pepper to taste ( I don't use any salt I find the parm salty enough and I usually forget about the pepper!!!)
fresh herbs sprigs; thyme, oregano or rosemary

Preheat oven to 375. Follow package instructions to thaw phyllo. Place 1 sheet of phyllo on baking sheet, brush with butter and sprinkle with 1 TBSP of the parmesan cheese.
Repeat until all layers are used.

Press down firmly so layers stick together. Sprinkle top sheet with mozzarella. Place onions on top then place tomatoes on top. Season with oregano.

Bake for 20-25 minutes until edges are golden, and the bottom is cooked.

Decorate with fresh herbs and cut into squares (squares can be cut in half to make two bite trinagles)

Notes: I slice the onions and then cut the circles in half to arrange on top. I also try and line the tomatoes up in a diagonal pattern, I don't place them randomly, and then when I cut it I cut the squares so each piece has 1 roma slice. I also don't measure anything anymore I just
sprinkle the cheese. I use rosemary but I cut the leaves off the stems. I've often cooked it with the rosemary on it. I also line my baking sheet with parchment paper.

Are you saying you sent in the recipe and they featured it? How fun! Did they post your photo and your Penzey story?

Thanks - it looks delicious!

Teresa

No they contacted me directly and asked me to be a feature contributor... I must have rung a bell on my last order!

They featured a couple on my recipes (modified from fresh to dried herbs), two photos and a little background info. It was fun.

If I'm planning ahead, I like to use the Cook's Illustrated Almost No Knead recipe that's over on Breadtopia.com. Otherwise, I use Lou's recipe.

A tip--save the liquid from black olives when you drain them and use that for some/ all the liquid in your pizza recipe. You'll need to reduce (or omit) the am't. of salt in the recipe because the olive 'juice' is somewhat salty.

Sharon, I think I still have that magazine, just so I could tell people I knew someone famous! Actually, I showed everyone your picture because all my friends and family know about the CF and I wanted to prove you weren't imaginary after all, LOL.

Annie

Cook's Illustrated found the Fleischmann's pizza yeast (in pizza dough) tasteless. They did not recommend it.

Sharon - Yes, you're on my short list of famous friends, LOL! I'd have guessed that was two years ago though, no?

Bumblebeez - Thanks for mentioning that. I'll lower the intensity of my search. But I'd still like to try it. For those interested, here is the bulk of what CI said:

Given that the structure and flavor of a top-notch pizza crust come from ample fermentation, we were skeptical that dough made in so little time would be any good. When we mixed up a batch, our suspicions were confirmed. Although the dough was incredibly well behaved, stretching without snapping back and rising quickly during baking, its texture and flavor were unimpressive. The crust was leathery, not crisp, on the exterior and spongy and soft on the interior. WhatâÂÂs more, it was bland and devoid of the aromatic complexity that is produced in fermented dough. So weâÂÂll pass on this turbo-charged yeast, preferring to take our time and make pizza dough the old-fashioned way.

Jojoco:
I said " some ". I didn't imply that all of the great cooks here are lacking in cooking skills.

I don't have any problems with everyone trying new Recipes.
I do it myself.

Sometimes I have problems wording things the right way.
If I said anything wrong, I apoligize.
As far as my Recipe, if you like it, use it.
If you don't like it, don't use it.
True, I use a little WW flour in mine. Like the texture.
Pizza Dough is basic. No big deal.

FOAS:
You are really pushing all the right buttons.

Dcarch:
I think the full moon just passed.
Some things just won't go away. Guess, I'll have to start Carving Crosses and Stakes, instead of Wildfowl.

Lou

FOAS, well you know from my previous posts that I agree with CI on the "ample fermentation".

Not to say you can't make an acceptable pizza crust with same day dough, but the texture and flavour of a dough that has been given a chance to develop through a longer cold fermentation really is superior.

Ann

Chase - I bet it was fun! And I cannot wait to try your recipe. I have the end of the year Roma tomatoes ripening on my counter right now. Picked them 2 days ago. I might have to make the pizza on Sunday.

I have been emailing a gal named Loni for the past year to see if Penzeys would develop a "bebere" type seasoning so I don't have to make my own. It's a spicy Ethiopian seasoning that you can make a powder blend OR make a paste. I love it for all kinds of things. Especially stews served with Injere which is fermented teff made into a pancake type tortilla. They use Injere in place of a spoon for scooping up stews. There were two Ethiopian girls that came to Minnesota in the mid-80's to go to Augsburg College. They worked part time at the Hilton Hotel I worked at. One of their Moms came to town for 3 months. I was in heaven every time they invited me to dinner.

Thanks again!
Teresa

Lou - "I" am the one who is pushing buttons?!?! If your comment that some people "think it is the the recipe at fault and they will keep trying others" wasn't directed at me, then I'm sorry, but there's a couple years of precedent at work here, of you giving me a hard time every time either on posts or on email every time I ask a pizza question. Yes, when I first started making pizza I had a hard time stretching the dough. That was many, many pizzas ago. I'm better now. Not perfect, but better.

I ALWAYS tell people I like you, Lou, and I do. But you piss me off sometimes, too. And if you're pissing off someone who considers you a friend, maybe that's worth thinking about.

Sorry, I should have probably be putting this in email but since you don't respond anymore I don't know if you get them. I'm sure it'll be deleted soon anyway. Good night.

Lou wrote:
Jojoco:
I said " some ". I didn't imply that all of the great cooks here are lacking in cooking skills."

Lou,
Well that makes it so much better. Thanks for explaining it to me.

Ann:
I don't make an acceptable dough. I think it is a very good Pizza Dough ( IMO ),
Maybe because I let it rise about 3 or 4 times before it is baked.
I like the Light , Crispy, bite through texture and the large End Crust.
But everyone to their own tastes.

Maybe you should have put ( IMO )after Superior.

There are millions of people making Pizza's every day.
Maybe some of them might think theirs is Superior ?

I'm not trying to put you down, your Pizza is good.
But everyone can't wait 3 days for Dough to rise.
Especially Pizzeria's
But I have had good Pizza's from everywhere in the Country.

For those who can wait, GREAT !!!

*****************************************************

FOAS:
Are you taking Goofy Pills or something ???
I don't remember giving you a hard time about anything.

Only tried to help you with Recipes or some other problems.
If that is the appreciation you show a friend, then don't consider me a friend.
And I won't bother you anymore.

You didn't say anything wrong, just voicing your opinion,
like everyone else.
Hey Thanks !!!
Lou

Lou, I read through you recipe again and it does only call for one rise. You did say it might have several rests while stretching the dough but that's not enough to develop aged flavor.
I am sure your pizza dough is perfectly fine...and I too usually don't have the forethought for an overnight aged dough but having had aged dough, it is my preference for great flavor.

Here's my tip for aged dough without waiting: Whole Foods. I adore their pizza dough and you can get it frozen- to go right back in the freezer.

FOAS,

Since I will not be able to cook again DH has had to really step up to the plate or, I should say, "stove" around here. He loves pizza during a football game. :)

He was VERY frustrated fighting fresh dough into a pizza. I laughed & that didn't help! (grin) Anyway, I had him switch to KA's "Italian 00" flour. At 8.5% it has a much lower gluten than the KA bread flour I used. The lower gluten solved his problems on the first try & we really like the crust it makes. It's a bit crispier on the bottom but the edges are still chewy with a few air pockets.

We are having pizza now once a week on Sunday afternoon. DH makes the dough while he's fixing Friday night dinner, tosses it in a plastic dough bucket, & into the refrigerator it goes until Sunday. He's using Claire de Luna's recipe made in the FP. It makes enough dough for two medium round pizzas. Around here, leftovers become Monday's lunch.

/tricia

Bumblebeez's:
Thank you !!! For taking the time to read through my recipe.
I did say one rise and put it in the pans, to rest.
But while it is resting and I'm cooking something else, it rises a little more , each time, it is stretched.
Then when it is out to the edge and up, I let it rise a little, before it is baked. This makes it Airy.

Sometimes I baste the end crust with egg and sprinkle with Garlic Powder.
Everyone loves the Dough and Crust. That's why I use this recipe.I'm not a hard headed Calabrese !!!

I've baked thousands of Pizza's, every which way you can imagine.
In the Pan, on the Stone. In outdoor brick ovens, I have built. Even in a gas fired Oven ( Korea ).
Did the 3 Day thing years ago, didn't find any difference.

I'm not bragging just telling where I'm at.

If no one liked my Pizza, I wouldn't make it this way and try the 3 day dough again.

But I like it too.

I said it before. ( and I'll be reminded of it ),
I've delivered Pizza's to homes next to, or adjacent to other Pizzeria's ( my competetion )

I don't have a Whole Foods Market here but there are places that sell dough. I've tried them.

Bumblebeez :
Maybe I am a hard headed Calabrese !!! It Beez like that.
Thank's for trying to help.
Lou XXXXXXXXXX

"... I will not be able to cook again..."

I must have missed something. That sounds drastic. Tricia, what is happening?

BTW, thanks for the pizza dough tips. I would love to have a dough that doesn't fight back.

Jim

Lou, you and I both posted at Sat, Oct 30, 10 at 17:13.

I don't think you are a hard headed Calabrese. And, despite despite what others have said, I don't think you are a soft headed Calabrese. i think you are a soft hearted Calabrese.

Jim

Getting serious now, how can pizza dough be tamed so it doesn't fight and snap back?

It's the gluten, right, that gives dough its muscles? Does Lou's and other's long rests help? If so, how? Do I understand correctly that an addition of a small amount of vodka to pie crust dough makes it more tender by neutralizing the gluten? Hmm. Yeast fermentation produces alcohol. Does that have something to do with long rests relaxing the dough? I wonder.

Jim

Maybe things have changed, but the chain mediocre pizza place my son worked for when he was 15, made the dough the day before it was to be used.
The pizza wasn't great but the crust was good.

Jim, I have come to think that is why great dough must be stretched and not rolled.
I haven't seen it in a long time, but when I was growing up, there was an Italian pizzeria near me and they were always expertly twirling huge rounds of dough in the air.
I try and twirl too and it really does help to stretch the dough evenly, if of course, my twirling is pathetic.

The Whole Foods dough cannot be rolled. It is so elastic and squeaky.

Posted by bumblebeez ---------Jim, I have come to think that is why great dough must be stretched and not rolled. -------"

I am not sure there is a difference between stretching and rolling. both stretch the dough the same way, it seems to me.

In anycase, I am not sure how the glutten can be changed by either way.

dcarch

dcarch/Jim/bumblebeez - I'm very interested in this turn of the debate. As referenced earlier, my early-on problem was stretching the dough. "They" said it had to be stretched, not rolled. Once I realized there were plenty of folks rolling their dough I followed suit and "POOF" no more problems.

I'm not adverse to thinking such subtleties make a difference. After all, in our quest for the perfect dough the ingredients themselves seem to be pretty much the same. Flour, water, yeast, salt, maybe oil maybe not. There's got to be something more elusive going on.

I don't have an opinion re rolling vs. stretching. i just wonder about how dough can be made more or less elastic. Does alcohol have something to do with it?

BTW, if anyone wants to learn twirling pizzas in the air, practice with a wet kitchen towel. Keep palms down and dough on top of knuckles. It's fun.

Jim

Let me say that I am not an expert in dough making. I just know enogh to tell that there is such a thing as bad dough, but I don't know what is the perfect dough.

Regarding stretch or roll:

I think there is dough that can be rolled but not stretched, like pasta dough.

Then there is dough that can be stretched and can be rolled.

It is about taste and about texture. I don't think rolling or stretching can change taste or texture. Kneading can change texture.

dcarch

Jim:
Try a small batch of dough. I don't know if you use oiled pans ?

After the Dough has doubled , knead it again and weigh it out.
I use about 10 ounces for a 10 inch Pizza.
Roll it into a ball, put the smooth side up, into a pan.

Bang it down , to flatten slightly and stretch out a little.
Leave it rest but not fall asleep.

Find something else to cook. Maybe chopped Sausage, for a topping.
Go back to the dough, every so often, to stretch it out farther,
using the Palm of your hand and push it out with the side of your hand.
Do this until the Dough reaches the side and up about 1/2 inch.

Dock it ( or poke holes with a fork )so it doesn't bubble.

Let it rise slightly and put it in the oven, about 5 minutes. To freeze, bake until there are tan specks showing

Now you can either cool the Prebaked Dough and freeze it, for later, OR

Take it out and spread the Sauce and back in the oven, 5 minutes more.

Spread your toppings and bake til almost done, then spread the Cheese and bake til the crust is done .
If the bottom isn't browned take it out of the pan and place on the Stone, til browned.
Hope this helped.

Many of the Pizza Places make the Dough ahead of time.
So they won't be caught short.

Pagano's Pizzeria was one of the largest in Philly in the late 50's.
Pete Pagano was a friend and let me see his operation.
So I helped him a few days, to pick up some pointers.

He had undercounter Refrigeration for Pizza Dough, to stop them from rising,
so they wouldn't get out of control.

The dough was weighed and set in bowls with a lid, until used.

It was taken out about 15 minutes ahead of time, to a wooden worktop.
There was a 24 inch wide Dough roller at the end, which was used to flatten the Dough.
The ball of Dough was thrown in one side of the roller and caught on the other side, in a Pan.

At least 4 Doughs a minute could be stretched, maybe 7.
That's it folks. Email me for any info.
LOU

PS: Glutten, Shmuutten, Make some Pizza !!!

It was stretched out to the width of the Pan.
After it was a little warmed, it was finished by hand to the side and up for the end crust.

I used both Fresh dough and prebaked.

Lou,

Great tutorial. Thanks.

Safe to say that you have done more pizza than everyone here combined, and multiplied by a hundred.

dcarch

Well, in my experience, the doughs that taste best to me (aged dough) are so elastic, squeaky, and bubbly that they do not roll easily at all. Perhaps they could be slowly pressed and rolled out, but the stretching accomplishes the same thing faster.
The ordinary non aged dough I do roll out only because it rolls out easily.
I do think it's important not to break the gluten sac either way.

Dcarch:
Don't say that. Someone will think I'm bragging.
Tune it down some.

But I have made a few.
Lou

Lou,

Some day, Lord willing, I will eat one of your pizzas, a pizza with thousands of pizzas in its heritage (you have made a few). In the mean time i will continue to theorize about gluten and all sorts of other stuff, because i'm a theoretical kind of guy. it can't be helped.

jim

Jim:
I appreciate what you are saying.If there was a way, I'd send you a few Pizza's.
Lou

There is no secret to rolling or stretching dough. Regardless of what method you use, if your dough isn't cooperating let it rest for a minute or two and then continue.

As for fresh dough verses a dough that has been given a long fermentation, I find that not only does the crust have a more developed flavour as well as texture, but it stretches or rolls out easier.

For those that are interested in experimenting and learning how to make a better pizza crust you might find this article interesting.

Ann

Dough that has been refrigerated for a day or two behaves perfectly and stretches out without a single objection. Fresh dough acts more like a petulant two year old.

"Fresh dough acts more like a petulant two year old."

LOLO!!! As father of three and grand father of five, that is a metaphor i can understand.

Hey, suppose we sic the petulant two year old on the intractable fresh dough? Seems like a fair match to me.

Jim

Jimster, the alcohol in the pie crust recipe is important only because it's a liquid that is not water. Water is necessary for gluten formation; it combines with the the two gluten-forming proteins, gliadin and glutenin, to form gluten. No water, no gluten.

That's interesting, Christine. I didn't know that. Kinda blows my theory about resting the dough out of the water, doesn't it?

Of course, 80 proof vodka is only 40 per cent alcohol. The rest is water.

Jim

I read the article and I guess I'm doing something wrong,
Because I've never experienced all the bad tastes.
And especially the petulant dough.
*****************************************
From the Artical:
But experienced bakers and pizza-makers know that this is not the best way to make dough. Though yeast produces carbon dioxide rapidly at high temperatures, it also produces undesirable flavors. Rather than tasting rich and complex, hastily made breads have the one-dimensional flat flavor of the flour, and sometimes even develop off flavors, like sour milk .

This guy must be a Salesman for Dough Refrigeration units.

He should contact every Pizzeria in the USA and tell them about their bad tasting Pizza.

Honestly, if I made one Pizza that tasted as described in the Article, I wouldn't make anymore.
Like everyone say's, " To each his own ".

Lou

"This guy must be a Salesman for Dough Refrigeration units."

"Dough Refrigeration Units"?? You mean, like... a refrigerator??

Um... I have one of those.

I don't always give my dough a few days in the fridge, but I do appreciate what I consider to be the better flavor when I do. I find the texture and flavor to be more like the pizzarias back in NY.

Lori

There is another way to squeeze a bit better flavor out of first day dough nobody's mentioned. For every batch of pizza dough you make, hold back 1/4 cup of fermented dough. Place it in a Zip-Lock bag, push out the air, and freeze. The next time you make pizza, remove the Zip-Lock of prior dough & allow it to sit for about an hour at room temperature. Add it to the new dough as your adding the flour. Then, after that new dough has risen take out 1/4 cup & freeze. Doesn't have to be pizza - works to improve flavor for any type yeast doughs. It won't be the same as a full 3 day fermentation but it does make a noticeable improvement. Your frozen starters will last 2-3 months in the freezer. The draw back is that you can't exactly duplicate each new dough since each of your starters will be slightly different.

/tricia

Yeah....Italian bread makers call that a Biga...I went through a period where I always had a biga in my refrigerator for the next batch of dough, either bread, pizza or dinner rolls.
Guess I have gotten lazy.... But it really does make a huge difference in the flavor of your dough.
Linda C

"This guy must be a Salesman for Dough Refrigeration units."
"Dough Refrigeration Units"?? You mean, like... a refrigerator??

Nope - he means just what he said. There are special stainless units that are built to fit under stainless work stations. The drawers are shallow and are usually 4 or 6 to a stack. The pizza dough drawers are 6" deep and I believe controlled humidity figures into it. It is easy to roll or toss one pizza and grab another ball of dough from a drawer below your work station without leaving the space you are standing in.

Oy. Thank you for your interminable knowledge, Teresa.

I believe most of us are talking about making pizza dough at home. Unnecessary to buy a dough refrigeration unit when I've got that tall cooling appliance in the kitchen...

Lori

Funny thing, I have one of those too Lori. LOL!

It is easy and doesn't really take any more time when making bread dough to whip up a double batch. Bake bread with half and put the other half in the "Dough Refrigeration unit" and leave it for a couple of days.

Then when you are ready to make pizza all you have to do is take the dough out of the fridge a few hours in advance so it will have time to come to room temperature.

I often make a triple batch of dough on one of my days off. That way I can bake bread from dough that has had a longer fermentation as well as a few days later make either more bread or pizza.

Ann

I have 2 of them!!!! One in the basement....and it's really good for storing wine, beer, extra apples.....and dough for bread.
I try hard not to forget what's in the "lower level cold storage" box.

"I try hard not to forget what's in the "lower level cold storage" box."

The one I have in the garage is often referred to as The Black Hole. Lots of beer, wine and sodas but any food that goes down there must be cosumed within a day or two or it is forgotten. Especially if it has the misfortune of ending up in the drawer......

Tricia - That biga... gotta try it, thanks. Sounds like a viable solution while I work on my neverending quest to be able to plan a meal more than the morning of.

What I find so interesting about pizza dough debates is that the ingredients rarely change. Like I said above, flour, water, yeast, salt. Maybe oil. From the site Ann linked, evidently sugar is a controvertial addition. I know my mom uses it; I do not. With such a short ingredients list, it's amazing what differing results people have. Obviously the treatment of these ingredients plays a huge part in the outcome. I also noted that while there were disagreements in the many comments following the article, in my quick skim I didn't notice a single one that discredited the benefit of a several day slow rise in the chill chest. The only time I tried a long rise was when Ann steered us to "Canadave's" recipe on the pizza making forum. IIRC, at the time she declared it the best crust ever. I guess she kept on experimenting despite having found the best crust, because these days her best crust is JC's dough. Good for her. Anyway, that was back in the day that I couldn't round out pie to save my life. Might be time to have another go at it.

I'm pizza'd out right now, but in the next few days I'll stop by the place that IMO makes the best pizza I've ever had, anywhere, take a picture and post it. Though it's very close to home I don't go there often, probably not in a couple years. Too expensive and their use of a bag instead of box while probably environmentally friendly, results in a cold pie by the time it takes the short drive home. I find that annoying.

FOAS, It was just Canadave's long fermentation method that I was experimenting with. And will continue to do so.

I've been using Julia's french bread dough for pizza for a long time. Before that it was an Italian Ciabatta bread dough I used. But as you mentioned above, bread regardless of whether Italian or French or whatever, is basically just flour, yeast, salt and water. I don't mind a little oil in the mix, but I never add sugar.

Ann

FOAS, I consider adding sugar to bread (other than a sweet type dough) as a way to manage time rather than a ingredient. If you're in a hurry & want the dough to raise a bit faster...add a tablespoon of sugar. The faster rise though comes at the cost of flavor from the wheat (the sugar adds a touch of flavor but that tablespoon isn't enough to have much affect).

Without the addition of sugar the longer fermentation will take because it just takes time for the yeast to break down the wheat's complex carbohydrates into sugar.

Whether, or not, I add sugar depends entirely on my needs of the moment. If I want French bread for a dinner party that I didn't know I was having until noon...I'll add that tablespoon of sugar. I don't have any mantra not to use sugar - I just prefer the enhanced flavor a long, cool rise provides. There isn't, IMO, a right nor wrong. I just know that I'm making a trade-off of fast over flavor. All homemade bread is good so, sometimes, that trade-off is OK for me.

You're right about the basic ingredients. If it were not for how we manage those ingredients plus how we chose to control time, handling, shaping techniques, & baking procedures, etc. all white breads would taste the same. Pretty boring.

/tricia

Domino's and Little Cesar's has also made about a zillion pizzas, but that doesn't make them good pizzas, quantity doesn't necessarily equate to a pizza that everyone will love. Amanda and Dave regularly buy Little Cesar's pizza, not because it's good but because it's $5.

I don't think anyone has a corner on the pizza making market because we all like different things.

For instance, I made a widely/loudly bragged about pizza dough recipe at Christmas time and it was abysmal. It was too dry, needed a lot of extra moisture and was horrible to work with. Even the Zojirushi couldn't knead it well enough. Other people tried it and loved it, apparently, but it sure didn't work for me. Now, it could have been me but I've been baking bread and working with various doughs for nearly 50 years and I couldn't make that dough "work" well.

Elery told me to throw it away and use another recipe, but I was determined to save it. I eventually got a usable dough, but I should have thrown it out.

Annie

Posted by annie1992 "-------I don't think anyone has a corner on the pizza making market because we all like different things. -----"

That says it all.

In addition, pizzas taste different to someone who eats one slice per month and someone who eats it everyday for breakfast, lunch and dinner.

One thing perhaps is true for all, no one likes a soggy pizza.

dcarch