I suspect it may be your measuring or your environment (humid environments need less water). Just saw yo are using half WW -- doesn't WW absorb less water? That may need some adjusting. If you aren't baking in the machine, why not mix a few by hand and get a feel for the moisture level and adjust as you knead?

It's not so much that WW doesn't absorb the water as that it takes a lot longer. It actually often require more water. If you let the WW flour sit in the water for awhile -- even overnight -- it helps with the absorption. Also, if you put some acid in the soak, it helps with nutrition.

Have you tried the recipe as written (which I infer was all white flour)? That would give you a baseline.

The first time I made it I did it all white flour, but I like the flavor and texture of half and half MUCH better. The first time I made it I used a steel loaf pan with a non-stick coating, and it took the shape of the pan I guess, it was two years ago so my memory may be a little foggy. I liked the bread but I like a crustier exterior which is why I did it in the Romertopf the second time. I want to use up my semolina flour so I'd like to make this bread a couple of more times. Plus it is super yum.

If my calculation is correct, the recipe comes out to around 82% hydration which is a fairly wet dough. A soak of the flour with the water as plllog suggests may help.

Doing a stretch and folds a couple of times early in the initial rise may also help. That could be the Forkish style ones or gently spread the dough into a rectangle on the counter, fold in thirds, repeat folding the other way.

Some of the images for Pane Italiano on the web show a fairly flat loaf.

I notice on these "wet dough" videos they are fairly generous on the flouring of the board and their hands. I figured incorporating extra flour might influence the gluten formation but these folks on the video don't seem too concerned.

Thanks Plllog. I knew someone would set it straight if I was getting it wrong in my foggy headed hurry. I think that cold may be resurging after not getting enough sleep.

Pink -- if you haven't made the bread in two years, it might be worth trying it as written again to get a feel for it and then trying then variation so you know what you are shooting for if you do need to adjust, Also, is the volume of your baker similar to the loaf pan? I think mine is larger, so any bread that was inclined to spread would lay out more.

Lascatx, you were right, though! The whole wheat doesn't absorb as much if you don't do a soaker.

LPink, I agree with Lascatx, that getting a feel for the dough as it is today, with today's flour, etc. is a good idea, especially since you're changing pans and don't have a precise memory. I'd also listen to Cloud Swift on the stretch and folds. I don't care for wet doughs, but I've learned that the only way to make them work is by manually developing the gluten. That also helps incorporate the water.

I also have come to the conclusion, as you've alluded, that the high hydration levels in some recipes aren't really what they say because they add so much flour on the bench. Since yours is a bread machine recipe, if it doesn't call for bench flour, don't do it that way. Instead, you can actually stretch and fold in your bowl, if there's room enough for your hands, or else pour it into a glass or heavily glazed pasta bowl or tray to fold it. Wet or oil your hands. It doesn't have to be perfect. It's not like getting the butter/flour layers even for croissants. You're just encouraging the gluten to form. Don't overdo it, because the bran can cut the gluten, but even once can do wonders.

Also, if you don't want to soak your whole wheat flour overnight, you can do an autolyse. After you mix the water and all the flour flour, but before you add the yeast, just let it sit for 20-60 minutes so the water can be sucked up and the gluten start to form.

Good luck with it.

The type of WW flour you are using can also be a factor. I noticed a big problem when I started using Bob's Red Mill WW flour. I had to adjust the amount of yeast because of it, and now when I use that flour, I use half white flour, 1/4 Bob's WW, and 1/4 generic WW flour. I never had a problem with the generic WW flour, but when I used half white plus half Bob's WW, the loaves sank in the middle.

Try switching to 2/3 white flour and 1/3 WW and see if that helps, or maybe 3/4 white and 1/4 WW.

Lars

I've made it TWO times, once two years ago and once two weeks ago. It was the loaf I made two weeks ago that was flabby. Almost exact same flour, other than that I can't remember what kind of pan I put it in the first time, second time it was my Romertopf and that was a bust.

Oh! I thought you meant that two years ago you used all white flour and only added the whole wheat during the recent batch. The clay may also be a factor? I've never baked in unglazed clay. Maybe try it in a loaf pan? When I have problematic dough I always use a loaf pan. ;) It seems to work. :)

My loaves have been sinking in the middle lately, and it's hard for me to get a nice rise out of them. They have a crease when they come out of the oven.

I do a half/half white and whole wheat. I'll try using a little less ww and see if it makes a difference.

Interesting Jasdip. I know that whole wheat breads aren't going to rise as high as all white, I guess maybe the bran nips the gluten strands or maybe it's just not as friendly to the yeasties, or whatever. I had been using hard red spring whole wheat bread flour but I was getting a bitter maybe "grassy" taste to my bread so folks on the CF suggested I switch to white whole-wheat flour, which is an all-purpose flour but not all that much different in gluten content to bread flour, since it is all-purpose. Anyway, it does give breads a great flavor. But I do realize that a whole-wheat recipe will act slightly different from an all white one. That's why I posted the recipe, to try and figure out how I could adjust. I like this particular recipe because it uses semolina flour and potato flakes, both of which add a great taste and texture. That's why I want to adapt this recipe rather than find another one for whole wheat bread. I have gads of whole wheat bread recipes and make them all the time. I just really like the taste of this recipe.

But in general, I have trouble getting good "oven spring" in my breads. I have tried all kinds of strategies for baking them, including using my cast iron grill as a baking stone, using a clay Romertopf, and baking the bread in a casserole dish, as well as the standard loaf pan. I like the free form shapes best, but just never have good luck with them. I just got a cast iron dutch oven and I might try baking in that, but usually my breads fall as I transfer them to the baking pan, so that's why I got the Romertopf, so I could let it do the final rise in there and then bake it. But so far my results with the clay baker have been marginal. The breads tend to take on the "u" shape of the pan as they bake.

I guess I could try using less dough and see what happens. I always do the 1.5 lb. loaves, that's as big as my bread machine goes. I can try cutting the 2 lb. loaf recipe in half.

Also, I use the "poke" method of testing for rise on the proofing, I am tempted to fiddle with that and bake my loaves with dough that still has a lot of "spring" in it. Supposedly that will cause your bread to puff up in the oven and then fall, but since my bread seems to deflate in the oven, I am willing to risk it, lol!