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anniedeighnaugh

Considering US food

Annie Deighnaugh
9 years ago

I know I got myself in hot water with my prior thread entitled "US food sucks!" so I'll change it to something less incendiary.

The prior thread was triggered by a vacation to E Europe where I commented on the beautiful foods in the markets and the freshness in deep flavors in the produce we ate. Far superior to the food supply in the US...whether it's through different regulations (Europe is much stricter on things like pesticides and GMOs), or shorter supply chains, or varieties that don't breed the flavor out of food in favor of transportability, I don't know. I only know what I experienced. I also suspect that, since I lost weight on that vacation, that the combo of fresher, more flavorful and more nutritious food was more satisfying so one could eat less. I also commented that conversations I've had with others suggest they had similar experiences.

Since that prior thread, I have found a couple of local farms that sell fruits and vegetables, and the quality and freshness and flavor are far superior to anything in the grocery store...even though our grocers are buying more local produce and labeling it as such. So during the summer months, I've been shopping there. I'm not sure it would compare as well to what I ate in Europe, but certainly worth the effort to make the extra trip to the farm.

But again this was brought to mind the other day when DH and I were taking a walk and hit an overpowering fragrance of grapes. We browsed around and found wild grapes had ripened. We each ate one. Granted, we don't eat the peels as they are very tough, but just one grape was powerful...so sweet, such a heavenly fragrance and a strong flavor of concord...it reminded me of how grape jelly used to taste when I was growing up...it had a real strong grape flavor that stuck with you... One grape was plenty! Now grape jelly's only flavor is sweet...like sugar water. So disappointing.

Comments (55)

  • lpinkmountain
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I didn't read the other thread, but 38 years ago when I went to Europe, (Germany and Switzerland) I had a similar experience. I ate like a hog and LOST weight due to lots of hiking, etc. And the food did taste better to me, but I know a lot of the Americans in the group turned up their noses at some things, always searching for a McDonalds. I ate from little local pubs, farm markets and then also they had individual type stores instead of a big grocery--got your meat from the butcher, vegetables from the greengrocer, baked goods at the bakery, etc. Back then, farm markets were practically extinct in the US except for the big cities and now they are coming back, even my small town has one. I also imagine there is more of a market in Europe for "tastier" foods, not very many Americans have the palate you'll find on this board. I also have noticed regional differences--produce tastes way better here in MI than it did when I was living in PA. Soil does have something to do with it, and climate. Soil and climate have a big influence on quality and taste. Even the same variety of produce can taste differently from plot to plot. Flavor constituents in plants are produced in response to environmental conditions.

    On the one hand, we are lucky to have food in abundance. On the other hand, some subtleties get lost in mass produced anything.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Olychick, if you have nothing new to contribute, feel free to not participate.

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  • lpinkmountain
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If I had known the conversation was going to be like that I too would have stayed out. Sorry.

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The thing about the produce that is bred to last, picked unripe and held is that while much of it is clearly inferior in taste, etc., and probably nutrients, to best quality ripe-picked, heirloom hybrids (remember that the farmers of those had centuries if not millennia to crossbreed them), without those things there would just be a lot less produce available altogether, especially for people who live where there there are short seasons, limited arable land and poverty.

    You can't judge the quality of US produce by what's available in discount chain stores, and you can't judge the quality of European produce by a short visit during a plentiful season. Things have probably changed some, but when I traveled in Germany dead of Winter there was a surprising amount of good produce available--from Israel. In the street fairs one could buy a pineapple for what, converted for inflation, would be $22. Oranges are a symbol of luxury at Christmastime for a reason, but in the U.S., at least, we all have access to quality orange juice year round.

    I am major produce snob because I can afford to be. I have both the means and the access (also in SoCal). Do I decry the poor quality and selection that's available just 20 miles away from me? Sure! But the people there can't afford to spend what I do. What I spend is more in line with the traditional price of food. That discount food with lower spoilage is available to people who have to watch every penny is a good thing! No matter how bad we think it is, it's a lot better than a steady diet of beans and rice and not much else. We have way too much hunger in this country. While I have no great love for agribusiness, I can't complain too much about what puts more plentiful and varied foods into the hands of those who would go without.

    Nothing is going to beat a wild grape, sun warmed on the vine, but we do get concord grapes in season. It's a very short season. They're amazingly grapy good, even if they're shipped into urban areas. I'm not a jelly aficionado, but I think the difference in the jelly must be similar to the jam. I don't buy national brand jam anymore because it's not what it was. Even Wilkin & Sons Tiptree jam doesn't have the amount of fruit and flavor that it used to because they're trying to meet the price point, but there are lots of local craft companies filling the niche.

    Do you get Randall Family Organic Grape Jelly where you live? I don't eat PBJ, so I don't know if it stacks up for that, but it's really wonderful jelly. It has a kind of crystal quality, rather than the syrupy glop that some jelly is, and excellent grapy flavor.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Lpinkmountain, I find your experience interesting, given it was similar to mine and yet several decades earlier.

    I find the seeming dichotomy curious though...on the one hand, we have processed food mnfctrs working nonstop to create foods with exactly the right combo of salts, fats, and sugars, perfect textures, packaged in irresistible containers in such a way to maximize our purchases...on the other hand, we have produce growers, the healthier food stuffs, focused on longevity and durability of the product with seemingly no eye to taste whatsoever. I guess the thinking is we'll buy whatever produce there is as it's what's available regardless of taste, and maybe leftover from childhood, no one expects Brussel sprouts or whatever to taste good anyway....

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Plllog, I'll have to look. I don't often eat jam or jelly, but I did buy organic blueberry preserves to coat the bottom of my galette, and it was very flavorful.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dbarron, you're right about the meats too. We have a butcher who does organic, locally raised meats and the stuff I get from him is incredibly flavorful...as well as frightfully expensive, so we save him for special occasions.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Grainlady, using kids as guinea pigs is not a good idea...I'm amazed they're getting away with it. Scary stuff. My understanding is that it's just about impossible these days to get non GMO corn...

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Well, let's be fair, things have gotten better, very slowly.

    I remember the days when in stores there were only carrots, lettuce, and celery. Now we have many more varieties.

    Still, all the supermarkets, I have not been able to find ducks.

    dcarch

  • westsider40
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Any, I recently came back from three weeks in eastern europe, too. June 29 to July 21, 2014 in Budapest, Slovakia, Austria, Germany, Czech Rep., etc. where I had the best food on a continuous basis, in my life.

    The superb food was on a small cruise ship on the Danube where the sights and not the food was the focus. There were no onboard activities. Fellow passengers, about 100 in number, were reasonably fit, not obese, and mostly senior like me.

    But, big but, when we ate in restaurants in Budapest and Berlin on our own dime, before and after the tour provided by the travel company, the food was good but not great. We spent an average of about $20-25 for dinner at spots in well travelled places, for locals and tourists.

    Breakfasts were superb and were provided by our various hotels on land and river and these were the best breakfasts of my life. Yes, the cheeses, fruits, mains, and ambience were absolutely stellar.

    Lunch was gelato on the streets.

    We visited two, at least, showcase food emporiums (a?). --The Budapest open market and a superfancy Berlin department store. The store had a least two floors devoted to food, gorgeous and only slightly less wowwy than my first trip to Harrods long ago. Every scene was a photo-op.

    I am sure that Italy has great food but when I was there it was on a shoestring budget and the food wasn't so hot. Same with lots of other countries. We love France and french food and yet have had lots of unsuperb meals because we didn't spend a lot of time and money and travelled with a child. I almost always have better food on a vacation than when I am not, for various reasons.

    I always lose weight in europe bc I walk from early morning til late, til I drop. Small portions of great food.

    Before I retired, I had been on an expense account and had been wined and dined all over this country. When you spend money, time and have the interest, it's great here and there. Jkom takes dining to an art form and she can attest to usa quality. Food is certainly better without kids around. Of course, you can spend little and still have delicious food.

    I have eaten wonderful food in europe and here in the states and could not make the statement that europe's food is better than ours. I do believe that european baking, both eastern and continental, even in the UK, is superior to ours, but not necessariy raw food materials. But they sure know how to cook.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    westsider, your trip sounds similar to ours...we went with Tauck...

    When we were in Rome, we paid very little for our meals, but all the food was fabulous, everywhere we went. Not to mention we shared a bottle of wine every day before dinner without getting drunk, hungover or headaches. Here, I have to be so careful as wines so often trigger a headache within 10 min.

  • westsider40
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have about 9 or 10 food markets within a ten minute drive, including 2 Whole Foods and 1 Trader Joe's. The closest store, upscale supermarket, has pretty and tasty produce. The others are ok, nothing special- Lots of pretty but tasteless stuff. (I dont buy produce at WF or TJ.)

    Its not about europe versus usa.

    Also, I don't like strong tasting chickens or dark meat. I very much like the inexpensive, ubiquitous, huge, boneless, skinless, chicken breast, especially at less than $2 per pound. I think that that is a marvel of usa value. I know that many of you think of it as tasteless but I like the mild chameleon-like quality. Great product.


  • westsider40
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Any, o.t., we went with Grand Circle, mid priced company. Tauck is oooh pricey. I am sure you had a good time.

    Costco rotisserie chickens are a great American value at $5. We did have a wonderful rotisserie chicken with lots of garlic cloves, from a chicken truck in some small town in the south of France, long ago. Probably the well known 40 cloves recipe. The garlic smell permeated the air and was a bigger attraction than the ding ding of american ice cream trucks.

    And I'll bet that a male frequenter here, not mentioning any names but the initials are J.L., could really tell us about european dining experiences lol.

  • jakkom
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    >>Jkom takes dining to an art form and she can attest to usa quality>>

    Oh my....thank you! Speaking of which, we just got back from a quick trip to Napa, where we were wowed by a couple of places (but less wowed by two others, sadly). Yes, I'm afraid it was the higher-end places that shone. We're talking $150/pp, with tip but without alcohol.

    Quality is everywhere, globally. But if you want it, it isn't cheap. Because quality takes labor to produce, and just as in Britain's Industrial Revolution in the 19th Century, anyone who can't afford labor-intensive products must turn elsewhere. That's where mass production comes in.

    We do have too much hunger in America, but OTOH we don't have city workers do a morning route every day to pick up the bodies of people who died in the street last night, as my DH remembers from Hong Kong's less savory districts, when he was growing up there.

    California has pushed locavore, sustainable, high quality ingredients into its mainstream. But this comes at a price, and that's a high one. It is not cheap to eat well, when both ingredients and labor are costly (even if you cook at home, your time and energy are worth a surprisingly high $$/hr price).

    We have been retired since the beginning of 2010 and have seen food/restaurant prices increase proportionately since then. The drought doesn't help - CA grows an enormous percentage of US agricultural products in addition to revenue-generating exports, and doing so uses 40x the water that the average non-farmer uses. As a state we actually have more than enough water for PEOPLE. But we don't have enough water right now for agribusiness AND people. (Prayers for rain, or appropriate rain dances, are gratefully accepted as CA begins a new rainy season, LOL.)

    Like it or not, the fact remains that without genetic improvements, old/heirloom/classic varieties may have tasted better and been more resilient to bad weather or drought...but they weren't as fruitful or vigorous as modern hybrids. Heirloom tomatoes, for example, only set within a relatively narrow range of temps. Too cold or too hot, and you get a wimpy crop.

    I spent a lot of years clipping coupons, where price was the major consideration for everything I bought. I drove from store to store for the best prices and stocked up on sale if it was something we used regularly. I could not afford considerations of "the best quality" or "the most flavorful". I was grateful for US corporate agribusiness, when cabbage would go on sale for 9 cents/lb. or chuck roast was slashed by 35% because its pull date was tomorrow.

    We no longer have to count costs, but that is by good luck (well, and some strategic financial plnng). To be honest I don't know anyone who spends as much on groceries and dining out as we do. We eat extraordinarily well, but food is a very large percentage of our budget. Most people can't afford it.

    Anyway, setting aside the issue of flavor, I ran across this article which discusses a rare heirloom breed of hog. I think it's an interesting read:

    Here is a link that might be useful: The heirloom Mulefoot hog

  • Islay_Corbel
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Only one thing leads me to wonder if our food is "tastier" and that's the recipes I see here. Often, there are SO many ingredients that the original flavour of the meat/ veg would be destroyed rather than enhanced. So perhaps our produce does need less in terms of added flavours.

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    IC, I don't think that's the produce so much as a cultural artifact. The best American food traditionally was ethnic peasant food, which tends to have more ingredients but less of any particular one because people would stretch any one thing. Soledad Lopez's mole negro, for instance, which I saved from here a long time ago, has 24 ingredients. Hollandaise has six.

    In the 1950's-60's, there was a big push for "cuisine", mostly French, but also Italian and Spanish. This was usually the fanciest things with the most ingredients, because it was show off food, even though some of the very best things one can eat in those countries are roasts and stews.

    I think most of us in this forum make lots of very clean, simple food, but that doesn't require recipes and only shows up in the what's for dinner thread. I talk about it mostly in the Appliances forum, re what can you do with this or that oven. We do post about simple things when there is a beginning cook who needs help with method, but what is there to say about roasting Spring vegetables? Whether you're a three star French chef of the greatest reknown or an American housewife, there's not much difference in how it's made (though the chef usually lets his/her minions do it).

    Also, one reason you'll find a lot of herbs and the like in American recipes is an effort to use less salt.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    dcarch, re slow improvement, the shift to organics is unmistakeable in the data.

    But in 2012 it was only 4% of total food sales.

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "dcarch, re slow improvement, the shift to organics is unmistakeable in the data. "

    I agree with you. But the sales are in dollars. Adjusted for inflation and population growth, the actual increase in quantity may be less.

    dcarch

  • dbarron
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Twenty years ago I made a three week trip to Romania, which had been out of Soviet rule just ten years at that time, and was an incredibly poor country.

    I found the food substandard there, with not a great deal of availability. I tried to cook for the family I was staying with (and I know how to cook), and had extreme difficulty assembling my accustomed ingredients (actually I'd say I failed) for fried chicken, homemade macaroni and cheese, and chocolate pudding. My chicken breading was too coarse, my mac and cheese had weird flavors, my pudding was runny. These are things I can and have cooked (lol). They wanted to try American food...I'm afraid I gave them a poor showing of it.

    Eating out while very cheap (at the time the exchange rate was about 6000 leu for $1 US.), was quite limited. I found only pork to be widely available, and the most common accompaniment was boiled potatoes. I was heartily sick of both when I returned to the US.

    While out with a group of college kids, we stayed in a house near one of Vladimir Von Drakul's castles, and I did manage to make creditable breakfasts and got compliments on that.

    The thing that struck me hardest about their economy versus ours...was this: One rainy day (after another), we were stuck in the house and bored, and I suggested to my friend who had gone to college in the States, why don't we go buy a deck of cards, we can play some games.
    His response was: 'Such a luxury might be available in Bucharest (the capital city), but you wouldn't find it anywhere else.'
    Of course here, you would expect a deck of cards at any gas station (lol). Ok, this was a tangent, but perhaps you'll enjoy it.

    This post was edited by dbarron on Thu, Sep 18, 14 at 7:42

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    After my first time visited Paris, I was so impressed by the availability of quality foods, I never stayed in hotals again. I rented apartments so that I could cook.

    dcarch

  • westsider40
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Islay, I totally agree with you. I have been appreciating food with few seasonings so that it's flavor comes thru. I don't have the patience to monkey around with tons of seasonings to achieve what, depth? An overused and inappropriate word. Just leave it alone. Do people feel that they are cooking better if they add 12different seasonings?
    .

  • dbarron
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I don't disdain seasonings...but I think food shouldn't absolutely require them to have any taste at all.

  • Gooster
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Whew, I could not wade into the last thread. I'll just contribute a bit of my own experience. I grew up with a family vegetable farm, have lived in Western Europe and now live in one of the food hotbeds of the country (Northern California). We just got back from a trip to Catalonia and Languedoc. We also go farmer's markets in the Valley and to some of the best sources in SF, plus local farms and the large chains.

    A few points:
    a. Large scale farms have gradually pushed out the smaller producers, who have resorted to niches. Hybridization (not to mention GMO) have gradually bred produce oriented for looks, not flavor. Even smaller producers struggle to find seed stock that has not been impacted.
    b. Summer in Europe is a bounty, but winter is no longer dire. The countries along the Med and down through to South Africa provide a steady stream of produce year round. In Switzerland where I lived, every fresh produce states it provenance, from local produce to imported items. I would say, however, England suffers some from location.
    c. The produce even in a supermarket in Southern France right now is stunning, with melons you can't replicate even going to my local farms. And the price at roadside stands was 1/2 to 1/3 that of those here in California. That 2nd fact stunned me a bit.
    d. I think in many European locations it is not uncommon to shop daily or every other day for fresh food and bread (the fridges are tiny!). This keeps the turnover high and the supply chain tight.
    e. There are some things that are still (or becoming) great in the US -- fresh seafood, great beef, olive oil, nuts, fine cheese. Even the gap on bread is closing.
    f. There are bad products in both countries -- frequently in the prepared food aisle or located in Autogrilles (shudder)

  • Islay_Corbel
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Seasoings are surely supposed to complement and enhance the food, bring out the best in carrot, for example. I think a dish like mussels "mariniere" is a good example. Fry finely onion and garlic in a little olive oil, add white wine and parsley, cook the mussels and serve. A simple boiled artichoke with a vinaigrette. A rib of beef grilled and served with a red wine sauce. - having said that the sauce Bordelaise would take 3 days to make hahaha. Roast pork with a lovely celeriac puree, radishes with salty butter, a good tapenade, les petits farcis de Nice, still in Nice, aioli served as it is there with plain boiled potatoes, carrots and leeks with salt cod, a plateau de fruit de mer (crab, oysters and every other sort of shellfish you can think of) ...... good, simple food.

    Pllog, I think the French would find it a little strange to talk about peasant food in a sense of it being something inferior. It's all good to a Frenchman, or an Italian. I don't think someone here would find a really good cassoulet a lesser dish than foie gras, or an expensive fish with a hollandaise sauce.

    But then there is a lot of European food that I wouldn't eat - the Swedes love their herrings and strange fishy things! I have a friend that lives in Bulgaria and there, the food is very limited. Alot of Polish food is very heavy, (I'm half Polish ) but the joys of a black forest gateau, blinis.

    Traditional English food is marvellous. Good old roast beef with yorkshire pudding, roast potatoes and gravy. Cottage pie. Lancashire hotpot, Cornish pasty, fish and chips, pan haggerty, wild salmon, and the GREAT British tradition of the best pies in the world, both savoury and sweet! Oh JOY!

    This post was edited by islay_corbel on Thu, Sep 18, 14 at 13:18

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Seasoning is like make up for ladies.

    Whether a lady is beautiful or not, it is nice to see her in different ways she makes herself up.

    dcarch

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    deleted duplicate post.

    dcarch

    This post was edited by dcarch on Thu, Sep 18, 14 at 13:06

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    IC, I don't know how you interpreted what I said as an opinion that peasant food is "inferior". What I said was that it often had more ingredients because of cultural differences (as well as differences in the available cooking methods). You are the person who thinks that that is inferior. I just counted 15-20 ingredients for cassoulet, depending on how you count different pork parts, and 20 ingredients for arroz con pollo. Peasant stews are delicious and have a lot of flavor.

    Westsider, I agree with you entirely about the flavor of good ingredients. I will often do a simple roast chicken with just a little seasoning, and plain veg. It's an easy dinner and delicious. Arroz con pollo is a heck of a lot of bother, but worth the results. And delicious, too. There are some foods that really are better with "depth". My long simmered "spaghetti sauce" (Italian style tomato sauce with meat and vegetables--a peasant food) has a heck of a lot more flavor and depth and complexity than the kind of thin, tomato-y sauces that have only five ingredients and are made in half an hour, and I like it a lot better. The other kind tastes like warmed over tomato puree to me.

    Today I was out and getting annoyingly hungry. I might even have succumbed to fast food if it had been right there, but I bethought me that there was a little deli by the bank. I had a fantastic sandwich. All very high quality (all natural, etc.etc., and well prepared) meat, sliced to order, lovely vegetables, excellent bread, as well as perfectly crisp and tasty, without being overbrined, pickle wedges, and a mixed fruit cup of all kinds of delicious delights. Probably twice as expensive as a plastiburger and fries, but so much better! No ambiance. Just some folding chairs in the parking area to sit on, but SO good.

    I've had as good a lunch (though not a sandwich) in Europe, but not better.

    Which got me thinking. Remember all the fuss in France over McDonald's? The vandals and all? The pickets and near-riots? There aren't enough tourists in most parts of France to keep them open, so they must be selling something the French want. There are lots of really repellent lunches to be had in France, which is a clue to what it is. :)

    I don't know why Northern Europe getting produce from Israel, North Africa and the Mediterranean countries is supposed to be any different from us getting produce from Mexico, Ecuador and Chile.

    I think if there isn't good produce to be had, it must be that the locals don't want to pay for it. Maybe the trick is to form a co-op and demand what you want. The farmers here love selling "overpriced" (their words) wonderful produce to the city dwellers. There are seed co-ops, as well, and specialists who will provide different stock to them than the agribusiness few. It's just that it takes an investment and determination. As with a lot of other businesses, when one doesn't include future return in today's bottom line, one gets mediocrity. The problem is, no independent farmer is getting rich farming, so it takes passion projects and --literally-- seed money to get it going.

    My trip to the local grocery store today looked like AnnieDeighnaugh's picture from her Europe trip. And that's not even where the "good" produce is. I wish you could all have good produce, but the best way to get it is to pay for it. Otherwise, the stores think what you want is what they can give you for what you're willing to pay.

  • Islay_Corbel
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    You shouldn't have to pay over the top just to get good, ordinary natural food.

    Pllog, the point I was trying to make is that food is food. The French word for a paysan doesn't have the same connotations as the word peasant. The number of ingredients is irrelevant. It matters that it works.

    Yes, o my Lord, the french eat at "Macdo". All kids like it and, oh another surprise, people here are hard-pressed and busy too. It's a shame. We managed perfectly well before;)

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Au Bon Pain, a nice coffee / pastry chain store here in NYC.

    When I was in Brazil, I found out those wonderful French sounding pastries are make in Brazil, shipped and sold to us here in USA by a Dutch company.

    You just have no idea where food come from and who makes them nowadays.

    dcarch

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I haven't done a side by side comparison, but when I buy the organic 100% grass fed beef, there is definitely a flavor difference...it's stronger and more gamey/beefy tasting. Depending on if you like that or not, you may want to spice more or less.

    We've talked about bone-in vs. boneless as well and the impact on flavor. That clearly is a consumer choice, not the food providers'.

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, grass fed beef is going to have a stronger flavor than grain fed, just because of the grass. If the fat is yellow, that is an indicator of the grassiestness and most distinctive flavor. Also, when you have cattle walking around so that they have muscle development, you get more tooth. With the quality of dentistry we have, this isn't a problem. Fillet mignon used to be the ne plus ultra of beef cuts because of its mild flavor and buttery texture because a) it's a small part of the steer and so fairly rare and b) because people used to have bad teeth! Whereas traditional (peasant) beef dishes are all about what is needed to make tough cuts chewable with worse teeth. :)

    I think this article has a good shot of propaganda in it, but also seems fairly comprehensive on the subject.

    I'm cooking more bison than beef these days. It's also grass fed, plus naturally lean, and very flavorful. Beef, even conscientiously produced beef, can be very bland. I don't need to salt bison as a matter of course.

    You have to be careful with labels, though. The "natural" chicken is usually tastier than the organic. It's hard to control what chickens eat. In order to be called "organic" the producers have to regulate the feed, so even if they qualify as "free range"--they get to walk around--they're still penned up in lots. The natural chickens we get are in sheds with yards and they're allowed to peck. They eat bugs and whatever, not just grain. OTOH, the pasture bred chickens we get are definitely eating something green, and they're big old tough birds. The producers probably have to sell them that big to make enough money, but they aren't great eating unless you're making coq au vin or something.

    IC, we're clearly not communicating. It's not worth hashing out.

  • rob333 (zone 7b)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I didn't comment last time around, but will this time. I assume the difference is due to how and where we grow stuff. The US is vast in land mass! Europeans have so much so close by and they all grown their own foodstuffs in their own backyard. Seems like exH said they all had their own vinyards and their own wines from them. For instance. Living in Tennessee requires my seafood come via truck/train from the coast, my tropical fruits come by ship, and livestock from the midwest. Pretty much. I assume transporting has a lot to do with it.

    I totally agree with you Lars, all the produce in California is out of this world! It's all grown there. Same for seafood there and other coastal areas. Tennesse? I'm up a creek when it comes to anything that isn't a peach, pecan, or an onion. Truly, it's my opinion. It's not the US which has a food problem. It's that certain areas have their strong areas and they have their weak areas.

  • Gooster
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    pillog: the point about Northern Europe getting food in the winter from southern areas was in response to certain claims that the US was somehow superior because of the supply of foodstuff year round. There is nothing unique in the situation, although the European import standards are stricter (e.g. GMO) and varietals used are different.

    Pictures of produce is deceiving, especially because in the US we place a priority on appearance and the supply chain, even with organic food, has responded. As others pointed out, meats and dairy products are influenced by the food they eat. However, with produce (and with livestock to a lesser degree), the flavor is also influenced by the species of plant. More often than not, the US suppliers choose/breed plant varieties that produce desirable traits relative to size, appearance, shelf life and transport, often at times at the expense of well-developed flavors. It has changed thankfully, and we're seeing more and more variety.

  • bleusblue2
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Can I bring in the topic of seedless fruit? We are crazy about concord grapes at my house. Every season we grab them up as long as they are in the store. But it's getting harder and harder to find them WITH seeds -- well this year we didn't find them at all in our neighbourhood.
    We asked in one Korean store about fruit with seeds and the jolly owner said of course -- seeds are better. What is a man without seeds! We all laughed but isn't it true that concord grapes taste better when they are 'intact'?????

  • writersblock (9b/10a)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm with you, bleusblue. Our local grocery chain has taken to pushing the hateful thomcords instead of real concords. I don't understand those at all.

    But back to the general topic, I think things are starting change back a bit. I was on a trip last week and had dinner in a very humble Turkish restaurant, the kind of place that does about 80% of their business as takeout/delivery, but after I placed my order the waiter went out front to pick the tomato for my salad. For sure you wouldn't have seen that five or ten years ago.

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "----We asked in one Korean store about fruit with seeds and the jolly owner said of course -- seeds are better.--"

    Oh yeah. Always buy watermelons with seeds, hard to find. Cheaper and better tasting.

    And outside in the garden, we always have a contest, who can spit the seeds fartherest.

    dcarch

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Oh, yeah, the watermelons without the seeds taste like diluted syrup. No flavor.

    I don't know why they have to breed seeds out of concords. Some seedless grapes are a good thing. You can give them to tots. Even if they're old enough to spit cherry pits they can choke on grape seeds. But I don't know that they need more than the Thompsons that used to be the only seedless ones, though.

    While I still believe that that we have equally great produce in this country, though not necessarily where everyone wants it, I have to decry what they've done to the apples. The pears seem better than they were when I was young (probably grown closer to home when they used to be shipped in from parts North), but it's so hard to find good apples. The crappy, ever present red delicious used to be really delicious. Now they're prettier but have a weird texture and almost briny taste. We get enough really good apples where I shop, but you used to be able to get a decent red apple just about anywhere.

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "-----but it's so hard to find good apples. The crappy, ever present red delicious used to be really delicious.---"

    One winter I was in Costa Rica. Food-wise, it was a very inadequate place. Imagine surrounded by water, seafood was disappointing.

    Being in the winter, not many seasonal fruits either.

    There were a few street vendors selling fruits. “America grapes! America grapes! They are seedless! Mister, I have New York Apples! Special New York apples from America!”

    Of course they didn’t know I was from the USA, and from New York, the Apple State. Apparently USA grapes and apples were special treats. Very expensive there.

    Yeah, I think there is no such thing as seedless fruits. They just pick them early before the seeds have a chance to mature, and good taste to develop.

    Now, I think it would be a good idea to come up with seedless pomegranates. :-)

    dcarch

    This post was edited by dcarch on Sat, Sep 20, 14 at 8:22

  • writersblock (9b/10a)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    >Now, I think it would be a good idea to come up with seedless pomegranates. :-)

    Thought you were being funny, eh? :)

    I have to say that I certainly do not remember the Red Delicious apple ever being anything but a marketing ploy. If you have to tell people it's delicious, it usually isn't.

    Here is a link that might be useful: eversweet seedless pom

  • dbarron
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've had Red Delicious apples from Washington State (have family there) when I was a kid, they'd send a shipping box full of them...nothing like them here (ever). They were absolutely delicious!
    It's climate, care, variety,etc.

  • dcarch7 d c f l a s h 7 @ y a h o o . c o m
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Posted by writersblock :
    >Now, I think it would be a good idea to come up with seedless pomegranates. :-)
    Thought you were being funny, eh? :)"
    --------------------------

    Yeah, saw this at Trader Joe's some time ago:

    "Free range, Seedless bananas - $0.19 each",

    dcarch

  • writersblock (9b/10a)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    LOL, dcarch.

    Actually the seedless poms are pretty popular with the folks in the FL garden forum.

    I think they're mostly based on an afghan variety that's naturally un-seedy, but quite sweet.

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Exactly, DBarron!! The red apples from Washington. They were SO good, even on the other end of I-5 in California. They weren't any extreme of flavor, beauty, snap, etc., but just scores well in all categories, and with a hardy enough skin and firm enough flesh that they didn't need special handling or storage. They were good cold from the fridge or room temperature, though the latter was better. Not great for cooking, but okay if that's all one had.

    You used to be able to get an apple--always a red delicious-- at a gas station or a liquor store (not the kind that's a gourmet market, just a corner store that mostly sells booze) or even sometimes at a weird place like a hardware store. They were always good. I mean, at the edge of season they could be mealy--they're fruit! But never revoltingly so. Someone went and "improved" them, however, and then they wonder why kids nowadays don't like apples.

    Someone is going to say this is a plot by the candy vendors to keep people from making healthy choices.

    I don't even want to think about seedless pomegranates...so they're sweet, but do they taste of anything but sugar?

  • writersblock (9b/10a)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    >so they're sweet, but do they taste of anything but sugar?

    Probably not, but that seems to be the trend for all fruits and vegetables, too, these days. Why do vegetables have to sweet now? Because the fruit usually isn't?

    plllog, your post made me think of my last trip to Paris. I stopped in the little convenience store down the street from my hotel and bought an apple. It cost something like 2.5 euro, but it was so worth it.

    Even in a place like that, every fruit was individually wrapped in tissue paper, and it deserved the respect. I didn't even need dinner that night, that apple was so perfect. (But it for sure wasn't a red delicious or any close relative thereto.)

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I was in the grocery store the other day and the kid was loading up the display with new peaches...he swung the box up, over and let all the peaches crash down on top of each other. Any idea why grocery peaches are so bruised???
    :0

    I didn't see them load fruits on the displays in Europe, but I wonder if their workers are taught to treat the produce more carefully...

  • rob333 (zone 7b)
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "kids nowadays don't like apples" ???? I haven't noticed this trend???

    But I dislike golden and red delicious apples. Have enjoyed honeycrisp, jazz, and gala pretty well these days. My young son begs for apples at the store. He had a teacher who had the kids taste-test apples and that really affected him. He's always liked them, but got to looking for different varieties after that. Apples are one I used to like to eat down to the very core, seeing how much of the apple I could nibble away. Could get it down to the seeds and ends. Fun memories!

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yeah. The apples the kids don't like are these icky new versions they're selling for cheap that get put into the schools and such like. Or ones, like red delicious, that used to be all around good apples, but sometime in the '80's or '90's became mushy and nasty tasting. Kids will take a bite and throw it away. And when it happens too often, they decide that apples aren't good to eat at all.

  • Gooster
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    A bit off topic but I think the big culprit in these mealy apples is the fact that the apples are held for so long or under improper conditions (I don't know if this is worse now or if this has always been the case). I tend to seek out the "new crop" apples and go to the local orchards to purchase the new bounty at this time of year.

  • plllog
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Gooster, that may well be part of it, but they've published the information that they've changed the trees for these new varieties that are prettier, and perhaps hardier, and taste horrid. They did it on purpose. I guess it doesn't matter if you throw it away so long as you pay for it first.

    There are plenty of fabulous apples! I'm not saying they don't have great apples at the stores. Just that there are varieties that used to be really good that are now pretty awful.

    My favorite are some blush ones whose name I can't remember. They look similar to Fuji, not as pink as Pink Ladies, and are a little smaller and more like "real" apples. :)

  • Cloud Swift
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Apparently there are multiple kinds of "seedless" pomegranates. They appear to have the things we think of as seeds but the seeds don't have the hard part inside them that is probably the actual seed. I felt the way others here have mentioned about seedless watermelon previously, but we got a very flavorful one from our CSA a few weeks ago. Then my husband bought a couple at the supermarket and they were quite good.

    We get some great apples here. Arkansas black are a new one to us that taste really lovely. We live near an apple growing area in the Sierra foothills so that helps. It seems to me that the apples that aren't a bright even red often taste better. Perhaps some are breed more for the perfect red apple look than for taste.

    I wonder if like on camping trips, the activity level of some people's Europe trips enhanced the flavor of the food. I travel on business a lot and usually get to Europe at least once a year. I don't find the average quality of restaurant food better there than here or Canada. Some cities may average better than others (or perhaps we just lucked out on our choices), but not countries.

    France used to always have great food (like 20 years ago) but lately my experience there has been more mixed and more like other places. On the other hand, England's preparation of vegetables has improved quite noticeably over the years moving away from the over-cooked stereotype. I had the best Brussels sprouts ever on one visit to Bristol.

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