....it really does makes a difference in the end product. I'm hoping not to catch that "sous vide" bug too. Your recent beef pictures are so tempting me to give that technique a try! (;o)

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

It is unfortunate that the name "sous vide" sounds so exotic, but in fact it is so simple. I am glad that you explained so clearly the smoking concept, because sous vide is very similar in concept. Smoking is cooking "Low & Slow" with hot air. Sous vide is cooking "low & slow" with hot water. There is no mystery.

dcarch

Since sous vide involves actual heat transfer from a "heated liquid" to the meat product, I can definitely see where that is much more effective a low temperature cooking technique than one where the heat transfer is from "heated air" to the meat product. Liquid contact would allow for a more efficient and consistent transfer of cooking heat.

Too the temperature of the sous vide cooking bath can be set for the "precise" temperature where maximum marbling fat and connective tissue flavor & tenderness chemical reactions can occur. In effect, sous vide should be very efficient in providing the perfect temperature over a sufficient length of time for that "maximum magic" to occur. Everybody knows that chemical reactions can be greatly affected by the exact temperatue and pressure under which it occurs. Some reactions just will not occur if the temperature is not right (too high and/or too low)...and that is true in cooking too.

Even though I have never tasted that type of cooking, I'm definitely sold on the sous vide concept and cooking technique. It may well be that I am one who does not know what he is missing. Thanks for your posts on that subject.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

We have one of the Cook Shack models and LOVE it. It is built like a small tank. I can use it as a second oven or a holding oven when we have large gatherings.

I also "cold smoke" things like cheese and nuts.

One of my dh's faves is ribs or shoulder with a pot of baked beans below it to catch the drippings.

Judi

Judi,

I am quite familiar with the Cook Shack Smoker. It is one of the best smokers on the market and I came very close to purchasing one. I ended up buying the Smokin Tex for its all stainless steel construction. If my memory serves me right, Cook Shack was the company that first came out with this particular smoker design. And, Cook Shack has a real nice Cook Book that is specially designed for their smoker.

There is no doubt you know what excellent BBQ these electric smokers will reliably produce......with such ease. One of my faves is to use some of the smoked brisket's fat trimmings in my baked beans. The flavor in imparts is soooo good. Not healthy, but good.

More people need to become aware of the innovative breakthrough that has occurred in the BBQ world since these type smokers have come to market.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

thanks, Dan, I'd appreciate "tips". As I said, it's inconsistent, sometimes it's awful, sometimes OK, once in a blue moon it's really good. And all from the same steer, LOL.

I put the smoker in the garage, so there should not be significant temperature fluctuations, at least 3 seasons out of the year. Since Elery was an electrician a million years ago, I'll have him check out that thermostat.

And he'd better do it soon, before that brisket in my pasture has to become brisket in my freezer!

Annie

Dan - The magic of which you speak, at what temperature does that occur? Why does 225 seem to be a standard temp for smoking? Why not cooler? Does the flavor/texture of the crust develop/improve over the long cooking period? Does one ever smoke a hunk of meat such as this brisket to medium rare and serve it at that doneness?

I know little to nothing about smoking and a little bit about sous vide, so I'm just trying to determine whether there's really any similarity between the two beyond being able to describe them both as "low and slow" cooking methods.

Also - re the Smokin' Tex, is their smallest (the 1100) a reasonable machine? Any idea down to what temperature they can be effectively used? (Meaning outdoor temp.)

FOAS, we use our MasterBuilt in the garage (which is unheated) all winter.

Annie

foodonastump.

An "air" cooking temperature of 225 degrees is chosen because at that particular temperature setting moisture WILL NOT "boil away" out of the meat. There is some +/- associated with that temperature setting where much of the meat will never see exposure to 212 degree heat....which is at or below the boiling point of water. As you drop the air temperature lower, it will take a brisket longer to cook. Cooking it at 250 degrees will speed up the cooking process. However, the flavor tissues stay at the optimum temperature becomes a bit shorter........so a bit less flavor conversion can take place. At 250 degrees you can start to lose a bit of moisture too. But certainly, 250 degrees works real well too. There is no huge difference in quality of the product that is cooked at those two temperature settings.

Bottom line.......a 225 degree air temperature is ideal for 1) fat/cartilage/connective tissue flavor conversions and 2) maximum moisture retention of the meat (meat juices stay below boiling point of water) and 3) good conversion of collagen takes place (for meat tenderness).

I am not sure at exactly what temperature those magic chemical reactions occur. I have that data somewhere and will post if I find it. As a brisket heats up, it will reach a temperature plateau.....stay there for awhile, and then begin to steadily rise in temperature again. At that temperature plateau is where those good reactions are taking place inside of the meat.

I haven't had anything sous vide so I cannot make any comparison to a low temperature smoker. All I know is that those new electric smokers sure do a great job of putting some flavor into the meat. And those temperatures swings are enough to develop a good "bark" on the exterior of the brisket which comes from those caramelizing chemical reactions (meat converted sugars turn into caramel).

Annie,

There will be a normal twmperature swing of the "air" inside of your smoker. Those temperature swings should just about average your temperature setting. If the average air temperature is way below 225.....it might just be due to a sticking thermostat. Elery will know what to do to fix it.

I don't know what outside temperature ranges would be ideal for your smoker or how cold an outside temperature can be for the Smoker to still work OK. As long as it can maintain an average air temperature of around 225 inside of the smoker where the meat will be placed...it should be fine.

My son told me his works fine as long as he does not open the door too often. He uses an electronic meat thermometer to monitor the internal temperature of the meat;so that, he does not have to open the door. I use the aame electronic temperature probe with mine.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

I can't figure out how to say that all the Jewish mothers and grandmothers have been doing it wrong for centuries. Braised brisket is a holiday staple at Jewish tables.

I should know. Some of my best friends are Jewish. Mazel tov.

Let me also make a few comments:

A smoker heats the food by convection of air and a little radiation from internal reflections. Due to the low thermal mass of air, the heating of the food is relatively slow compared to sous vide, which heat only by conduction of water. Water can carry much more heat and the temperature can reach set temperature much quicker in a SV cooker. With a smoker, there is also the heat that's carried away from convection caused evaporation (Latent heat) that is to be considered.

Still, heat is heat, it makes no different to the food that is being cooked.

One of the consideration in sous vide is the absolute need for accurate and even temperature control and maintenance. A sous vide cooker, using thermocouple sensor and electronic controls, can do very well in keeping temperature to better than one degree resolution.

A typical electric smoker uses mostly either a bi-metal or capillary thermostat. Both types are highly inaccurate, with resolution (temperature swing) of 10 to more than 15 degrees F. With the inaccuracy and the lack of narrow resolution, your set temperature can be off by more than 30 degrees. Together with the low conductivity of air, you really may not want to get too low in your smoker temperature. However, the smokers which are insulated, with digital temperature controls and with sensor probes inserted in the meat, I don't see why you can't get way down in your smoking temperature.

The thing to remember is this, a smoker is not to be compared to a sous vide cooker, or a roasting oven. They are meant for different food preparation techniques and recipes.

The Smokin' Tex is insulated; I think it should be OK to be used outdoors in the winter time.

dcarch

Pam, I was thinking the same thing a couple of days ago when I was reading this thread.

Posted by dedtired "---I can't figure out how to say that all the Jewish mothers and grandmothers have been doing it wrong for centuries. ---"

Not really. Jewish braised brisket is a perfect example of "Low and Slow" for a perfect brisket.

As I understand, typical Jewish brisket recipes have lots of liquid submerging the meat, so brasing in an oven at 325 degrees is very acceptable. On the other hand, in smoking, the meat is smoked dry, any higher then 250 F will turn the beef into jerky.

In either method the briskets remain no more than 212 F, and cooked a long long time.

Another thing to consider. They are different recipes, you can't compare oranges and apples.

IMHO.

dcarch

Dcarch, I don't think that Pam was referring to anything you said.

But Dan was quite definite ".........Brisket is one of my specialties and I know what I am talking about and not just rehashing something I read somewhere. I know the difference between good, very good, and awesome tasting brisket. You emphatically "CANNOT" attain that "awesome" flavor with a braised brisket. It is not going to happen. I don't care how many onions or carrots that you use."

Ann

That's what so interesting about talking food. All so subjective.

I would agree with Dan, there is no way you will win a smoked brisket competition with braised brisket with carrots and onions.

OTOH,

I will agree with you there is no way a smoked brisket, no matter how expertly prepared, can compare with a brisket that is wonderfully slow brised in juicy onions and carrots, if I am in the mood of having a nice awesome Jewish braised brisket.

I also know what I am talking about, I used to live a block away from Katz's Deli in NYC.

dcarch

Finally..... A voice of reason......

"I can't figure out how to say that all the Jewish mothers and grandmothers have been doing it wrong for centuries. Braised brisket is a holiday staple at Jewish tables."

Thanks Pam.

What I don't understand is if the flavor of the converted fats and collagens is so amazing, why is it necessary to rub it with Tony Couchere's Mo Spice and smoke?
Braising is not covering with liquid and simmering....it is browning and cooking in a closed moist enviornment at a very low temperature.
I am not saying that your smoked brisket isn't wonderful....but so is my braised one, and frankly I resent the implication that the ONLY way to cook a good brisket or pork shoulder is in a smoker or a sous vide bath.

Posted by Lindac

"What I don't understand is if the flavor of the converted fats and collagens is so amazing, why is it necessary to rub it with Tony Couchere's Mo Spice and smoke? "

I agree. Recipes, recipes, why don't they all make logical sense? All the variation and substitutions are too complicated.

"Braising is not covering with liquid and simmering....it is browning and cooking in a closed moist enviornment at a very low temperature. "

I am going to have to tell my Jewish relatives that they have been doing it all wrong.

"I am not saying that your smoked brisket isn't wonderful....but so is my braised one, and frankly I resent the implication that the ONLY way to cook a good brisket or pork shoulder is in a smoker---"

Yes, and tell all the others never to post "Best pizza dough EVER!!!!!" or "Best salsa evah!!!"

"----- or a sous vide bath."

I agree. Please let me know who has said "sous vide is the best way" and let me join you in straighten him/her out.

dcarch

As usual, no one should talk in absolutes. It's that "don't yuck my yum" thing.

As with everything else, with smokers there is no absolute, everyone likes their own way. Like grilling, there will always be an argument between gas/charcoal, or electric/wood or whatever. Each person whould do what they like, after all, they have to eat it!

And although Dan said that there was no learning curve with the electric smokers and the first brisket will be so good it'll knock your socks off, mine wasn't and neither was Sharon/Chase's. In fact a couple were bad enough that both she and I were/are considering abandoning the process altogether. Maybe that brisket I got at the Texas BBQ can't even be replicated with my electric Masterbuilt smoker here in Michigan, because I haven't done it yet or tasted it done anywhere else.

As for braised brisket, many people love it including my kids and grandkids. I did kind of like the brisket recipe that called for Dr. Pepper but I haven't been all that successful at making a braised brisket either. It's all too stringy. And yes, I've cut against the grain, with the grain, across the grain. Doesn't matter.

So I've done brisket in a smoker, in the oven, in my crockpot. I haven't tried the Nesco yet, but it's next. And Cooper is always happy to eat the experiments because he's just helpful like that. (grin)

Annie

dcarch - Seems to me that Linda provided a textbook definition of "braising." What part of her statement do you and your Jewish relatives disagree with? Can I come to the next family function and deliver the message that you're all wrong? You bring the camcorder, I'll bring some nice kosher wine!

So when I poach a salmon in my fish poacher I am really braising it?
Who knew!!

FOAS, you read my post wrong. I never said LindaC was wrong. I said my Jewish relative(s) must have been doing it all worng, because they have been doing it this way, with lots of liquid:

"Braising, is a combination cooking method using both moist and dry heat; typically the food is first seared at a high temperature and then finished in a covered pot with a variable amount of liquid, ---"

dcarch

Here is a link that might be useful: Wrong Brisket?

petra, I hope you would share this post with your family while you are enjoying your wonderful brisket.

I think they will find it rather entertaining (educational?).

dcarch

Dcarch, I did read some of it to my husband in an effort to encourage a smoker purchase. :o)

We used to live in NJ and have had very good braised brisket. We've also had BBQ brisket here in TX, very smoky and tasty as well. I think it all depends on what you are in the mood for and what season it is. BBQ brisket is great for summer and braised with veggies seems more like a cooler season dish, but they are both delicious.

I also just found out that the "Tafelspitz" with horseradish I loved to eat in Germany is actually brisket simmered in broth with lots of spices. Technically, Tafelspitz is supposed to be made with rump cap roast, but apparently people often use boiled brisket instead.

Annie,

IMO, a Masterbuilt smoker that is working properly "should" produce a very good tasting meat product. I believe I have given a way to determine if your smoker is working properly.

Not wanting to "offend" anybody, I did say that there is no learning curve. What I really wanted to say and will say it now. There is no learning curve to using a Smokin Tex smoker. IMO, it is a much better smoker than most other brands. It does cost more than most of the Masterbuilt units. And, in life you usually do get what you pay for.
-------------------------------------------
Now Gee whiz...

I see that from now on whenever I post ANYTHING on this Cooking Forum, I will have to preference "everything" that I post with "IMO". And be very careful not to offend somebody with whatever I write. And pay attention ot my spelling. And pay attention to my capital letters. And pay attention to my punctation...etc. etc. etc. This is a "Cooking" forum for Pete's sake!!

Regarding taste........sure everyone has a different taste perception and different preference. Does that really have to be pointed out to me?? Isn't that obvious to all who frequent the cooking forum?

IMO, a braised brisket, or a boiled brisket, or corn beef brisket......they are all good to very good and some may find them excellent. However, IMO (and I do have a right to my own opinion don't I?), nothing compares to the flavor that develops INSIDE of the meat as I have described. Toni's adds some flavor too. And so does a bit of smoke. IMO, applewood is best. But you really do not need it. And you do not need BBQ sauce either to cover up and hide that great flavor. Again IMO, it is silly to spend hours to develop a truly great flavor and to then cover it up with a sauce. Do you guys put Ketchup on your prime rib steaks? I do not. IMO, that is ridiculous to do that. But go right ahead if that is what floats your boat.

And the flavors that I am talking about mostly come from within the meat because of the cooking technique described. That flavor is not dependant on any external seasonings or any external ingredients. Many perhaps still do not understand the concept of Steam Distillation and what it does to the product. But that is OK too. I for one do know what it does and have probably failed miserably in trying to explain it to this audience. And again, IMO it WILL take away (noticeably) some of that flavor.

Please allow me to voice my own strong opinions on this "Cooking Forum" without taking things so darn personal. I sure do not mean to offend anyone nor offend any ethic group. OK??

All of you who can afford the best of ingredients can become very good cooks. However, it usually takes an excellent cook to be able to consistently turn cheap ingredients into food that is fit for a king. Excellent cooks do not cook by recipe.....they cook by technique. And I do cook by technique and I am well on the road to becoming an excellent cook. Oh, I forgot to add......IMO IMO IMO.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

Dan, the meat tasted OK, it was the texture that just never got there. It's always kind of stringy and a bit chewy, sometimes dry, never the nicely sliced and tender juicy brisket that I was looking for. Sigh.

As has been mentioned before, taste is not objective, it's subjective. If you loudly state that your smoked brisket is better in flavor and texture than any braised brisket and everyone else is surely wrong, you're sure to raise the ire of those who like a nicely braised brisket and don't care for the smokey meat. It's human nature. It's fine to state that you prefer your brisket smoked, but to declare all other preparations inferior is going to rise some back hairs.

Oh, and my brother puts catsup on his prime rib, and so does my son in law. It amkes me shake my head, but I just put out the Heinz and never mind. If that's what they like, I say they should go for it.

So, I guess, the "brisket wars" will go down in history along with the grits discussions and whether sugar belongs in cornbread.

Annie

Smoking/BBQing is an area of cooking involving very passionate participants almost in a religious way. I have visited those forums and have gotten a good understanding that they really mean business when it comes to the best way to cook meat. They probably have more competitions than any other types of cooking. They talk different, and they think different.

Dan, you are one of the few who actually have a professional training to apply to cooking, and I really appreciate your contributions every time you post. (IMO)

Thank you very much for sharing.

Please "offend" me some more. :-)

dcarch

Will all who have "Professional Training to apply to cooking" please raise their hands...
We have caterers, cook book authors, professional chefs, personal chefs....all posting on this forum.
I know who many are....but I'll let them weigh in....if they choose.

Dan wrote: "IMO, a braised brisket, or a boiled brisket, or corn beef brisket......they are all good to very good and some may find them excellent. However, IMO (and I do have a right to my own opinion don't I?), nothing compares to the flavor that develops INSIDE of the meat as I have described."

Annie wrote: "If you loudly state that your smoked brisket is better in flavor and texture than any braised brisket and everyone else is surely wrong, you're sure to raise the ire of those who like a nicely braised brisket and don't care for the smokey meat. It's human nature. It's fine to state that you prefer your brisket smoked, but to declare all other preparations inferior is going to rise some back hairs."

Annie - it does not appear that Dan is stating that his method is better and other methods are inferior. At least from what I have read. He states it is his opinion. It is what he prefers - hence the use of IMO.

Now - for the record - I believe I am allergic to anything that is smoked. I can't even be in a house that contains smoked meat or anything else. I do however, enjoy a braised corned beef brisket. And that is just my preference. Do what you like best folks.

Teresa

There were some wise words from Ann T that were posted on the Shuck a Corn thread. I believe they apply well to this topic as well. People will come and go. Ann will always be here with good recipes, great photos and wise advice.

Posted by ann_t on
Fri, Jul 8, 11 at 8:40
Ntt hou, there was nothing unkind or wrong with what you posted. There is or should be room for different opinions and more than one way to do something. At least there use to be.

Now I (Teresa) will paraphrase Ann's comments:
Ntt hou, Please don't leave because of (enter any forum member's name here.) He/she often makes judgements based on the wrong interpretation of what has been said. Just ignore. Ann

Excellent advice Ann!

Thank you,
Teresa

I pretty much bowed out of this thread rather early on. I gave my opinions on a braised brisket and don't feel the need to defend them. I'm not the biggest carnivore on the planet so maybe my opinion shouldn't hold that much weight anyway. Smiles.

It's true to me that Dan has a rather forceful way of expressing himself. I'm not a big fan of the caps and the 'only way' opinions from anyone, but, everyone has their style. I am a bit disappointed Foodona that you left out the first statement that actually annoyed me. " Brisket is one of my specialties and I know what I am talking about and not just rehashing something I read somewhere." I did chuckle at myself for being annoyed by that. Smiles.

I agree with Annie. Brisket, corn bread and grits! Hey, not a bad combo.

Dan, what model of Smokin Tex do you have? I'm still considering one.

I am Cajun, an ex Marine, and have science degrees in Chemistry, in Mathematics, and almost one in Physics. I worked 34 years as a Chemist before retirement. Really love that science stuff. I cannot help it that my background and my mannerism finds its way into my cooking, and how I write about it. I am very passionate about my cooking and my fig research activities. );o)

Bubblebeez,

I purchased their all stainless steel Model 1400. I bought the stainless cart option too. The cart kit comes with nice wheels that are lockable. This accessory is real nice for moving the smoker from storage shed to patio. Also purchased their cold smoke plate that allows me to do cold smoking.....which I use for making dry sausage, smoked fish, and smoked cheese. I also have their jerky kit; but, have not yet used it. You can find better prices for these smokers and their accessories on sites other than the one listed.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

Here is a link that might be useful: Smokin Tex Smoker

I've got to look into the cold smoking thing. Renee (beantheredonethat) sent me some "Portugese Allspice" and a recipe for making linguesa sausage. I still have the spice but haven't made the sausage.

We've made Italian sausage and breakfast sausage, but haven't manaaged to smoke any sausage yet. I suppose it'll be the next thing I screw up, LOL. Some people just should not be allowed to play with fire.

Annie

I dunno. I've had excellent brisket smoked (as well as less than excellent all the way down to feh). I've also had excellent brisket braised (and good and poor). I've been to well regarded places in Texas, KC, and elsewhere. With a shocking lack of humility, I'll say that, on a good day -- and most days are good days -- I like my liquid-drenched brisket as well as anybody else's brisket. Several food-savy friends have given me fairly puffy reviews. And mine is a variation on the recipe my mom used, aleha ha shalom, and hers before her. Really, a substantial variation on the recipe but just about identical on the technique. Maybe there's a well-known proof from analytic chemistry that shows that I'm wrong, but I'm not an analytic chemist and I like what I like. To each his or her own. Chacun . . . etc.

I don't know if anybody cares, but here's what I do:

I trim the brisket, but not completely -- I leave some fat on top for the cooking and then trim it, and skim the sauce, afterwards.

Dry rub similar to what I do for many steaks (and this is a departure in this generation) -- coarse kosher salt, a little ancho chile powder, smoked paprika, and black pepper.

Saute onions, red and yellow peppers, and garlic, in olive oil. Remove and set aside.

Briefly sear on the fat side, then lift and set down half the vegetables. Return the meat, fat up, and cover with the remaining vegetables. Add one can of good quality diced tomatoes. Add one cup or so (ok two) of red wine. Actual wine that you would drink -- there's no such thing as cooking wine.

Into a 325 degree oven, uncovered. Baste occasionally, but mostly leave it alone. Start fork testing at 3 hours and turn it down to 300 -- you'll probably want an extra half hour, maybe a little more, depending. Remove the vegetables and set aside, and let the meat and the liquid cool a bit.

If you're serving that day, you can trim and slice and skim and sauce once the meat is at the right temperature, but this will be very good the next day. Wrap the meat and refrigerate the meat, the sauce, and the vegetables. Trim the top layer of fat completely before serving. Remove the fat from the chilled sauce, heat the sauce -- reduce a bit, as desired -- and make whatever seasoning adjustments are called for -- if you want it to be sweeter, you can add a bit of port (sometimes my mom would do a variation with ginger and dried apricots in the cooking, which can be a nice change). Blend and strain the sauce and then add back the vegetables. Serve the sliced brisket, sauce, and vegetables together.

dig1, your method, right down to the way your refrigerate the meat (seasonings are different) and the sauce is identical to the way that I learned to cook a brisket. I learned from my Jewish friends in Toronto.

Comparing a smoked brisket to a braised brisket is like comparing apples to oranges. Both can be good, but they are not the same thing.

Ann

And even if you leave out the smoke, IMO the one cooked in a "pit type BBQ" smoker that I described (sans smoke) will taste much different and better than one that is braised. IMO IMO IMO.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

IMO IMO IMO and I up you one IMO...... a brisket SMOKED or just cooked on a smoker with or without SMOKE is a DIFFERENT cooking method and you WOULD expect a different outcome than if the same piece of meat was BRAISED.

Is one BETTER than the other? Well I guess it depends on who you ASK.

Ann

Thanks Dan - I don't think any single one of us had realized until you just posted for the umpteenth time that in your opinion smoking is superior to braising.

We get it.... and some of us in our opinions do not agree. I have had smoked brisket many times, in many parts of the country, and it is good. Better than some of the great braised briskets? Probably not, but there is room for both on the table. Can we all agree to disagree and you can drop it now?

djg1 - your method, though seasoned differently than I have in the past, is so similar to some of the truly memorable brisket dinners I have had. Thank you so much for sharing!

Alexa

A sous vided brisket, then smoked, sliced, suffused in braising sauce from braising another dish, is the bestest of all best briskets. IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO, IMO

LOL!

I Googled "best brisket", 3,700,000 hits. :-)

dcarch

Ann and Alexa -- you're very welcome and I agree: there really are differences and personal preferences at work. Personally, I like both apples (good ones) and oranges (good ones). I meant only to defend the beauty and excellence of the humble apple, and to offer up my own version for those who are interested. Smoking is not my thing, but I'll no doubt enjoy some top-notch smoked brisket in the future, just as I've done in the past.

(yet another) Dan

....so y'all already knew that these newer smokers that are designed to produce true pit style BBQ are quite different than regular (older style) smokers RIGHT?? I should have known you guys already knew that. Shucks, I could have saved myself some time and not try to make that obvious distinction. Silly ole me......

LOL....dcarch. We seem to think alike and have fun playing with our food.

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

Dan - This conversation is one (of a few) that has made me interested in getting a smoker. Above I hinted that I don't like smoked food, but in retrospect and on further research I realized that I often don't like smoked food that friends and neighbors make because I've eaten one too many meals that taste like ash. But overall I like food marketed as "smoked." Hmmm. Now that I see you talk about smoking for just an hour out of the ten hours cooking time, a light bulb went on. ANYWAY...

Smokin Tex 1100 vs 1400... offhand it looks like the price difference is roughly proportional to the capacity. Any other significant differences that I may be overlooking?

I've never had brisket. It's hard to find here, our stores don't stock it as readily as the US stores, it seems.

I saw Ina Garten make it once and it looked awesome. With carrots and onions, braised in tomato sauce, in the oven for 3 hours or more. It was covered.

I don't care for the taste of smoked. Can't think of any meat that I've had off-hand, but if a barbecue sauce calls for smoke flavour, I leave that out. Same as in purchased sauce, I don't like the flavour in it.

"---LOL....dcarch. We seem to think alike and have fun playing with our food. ---"

Yes, call me crazy. :-). Why I don't have a smoker? Liquid smoke? LOL!

But seriously, I have been looking for a small refrigerator which has interior material/insulation that can take 250F or higher temperature. I have purchased PID temperature controllers, fans, heaters to configure a smoker that can go from freezing to above 250 F.

It will give me very interesting controls in optimizing in some cooking techniques. Beside, a small refrigerator actually can be cheaper than a smoker.

I also can do the most ideal and repeatable dough proofings, and alcoholic fermentation, regardless of outside ambient temperature.

dcarch

Who knew that brisket, of all things, could make people fight? At our house, a big brisket meal makes us pretty mellow. We even have a song that goes, "Oh, it's good to be a dog on yontif,* 'cause on yontif, a dog gets brisket."

* Yiddish for holiday

I'm not a food scientist or a chef or a cookbook writer or anything else special, food-wise.

But I am a genuine Jewish mother. And I figure it's about time that one waded into this.

I've made a lot of briskets. Very many briskets. And I've eaten many many many briskets, cooked all different ways, including smoked brisket, which was indeed very good.

But that doesn't mean it's always the flavor you are going for, even if it were possible to say that it's somehow objectively superior to braising or roasting. To me, that argument is as silly as trying to prove that fried chicken is definitively, universally, always better than oven-roasted. Anyway, even if I do think one way is better, sometimes I don't want it to taste "better," I want it to taste like "home."

I've always made mine in the oven, sometimes starting it on the cooktop.

Here are two recipes we like a lot, one simple and old-fashioned and using onion soup and jam, one more fancy. We never get any complaints, and, the song notwithstanding, there isn't always any left for the dog.

Brisket

5-10 lb. Brisket
2 8-oz. Jars apricot preserves
2 packets dried onion soup
2 T ginger
salt, pepper, and garlic powder

Mix jam, soup mix, and ginger in a bowl. Add 1/4 cup water. Sprinkle a little salt and pepper on the brisket and pour garlic powder on it. Rub sauce mixture all over roasting pan and brisket.

Cover tightly and bake 350 for 2 1/2 - 3 1/2 hours. Remove from pan and slice. Spoon some of the gravy over it. Cover again and bake another 30 minutes before serving.

***
BEEF BRISKET WITH MERLOT AND PRUNES
1 4-to 4 1/2-pound flat-cut (also called first-cut) beef brisket, trimmed of most fat
2 tablespoons olive oil
1 14 1/2-ounce can diced tomatoes in juice (preferably fire-roasted)
1 cup Merlot or other dry red wine
2 pounds onions, sliced
4 medium carrots, peeled, thinly sliced
16 garlic cloves, peeled
1 1/2 cups pitted large prunes (about 8 ounces)
1 tablespoon finely chopped fresh thyme
1/2 cup plus 1 tablespoon prune juice
3 tablespoons plus 1 teaspoon balsamic vinegar
2 tablespoons chopped fresh Italian parsley
Position rack in bottom third of oven and preheat to 325 F. Pat brisket dry; sprinkle all over with salt and pepper. Heat oil in heavy extra-large skillet over high heat. Add brisket and cook until deep brown, about 7 minutes per side. Transfer brisket, fat side up, to large roasting pan. Add tomatoes with juice and wine to skillet. Remove from heat, scrape up any browned bits, and pour mixture over brisket. Distribute onions, carrots, and garlic around brisket. Add prunes and thyme; drizzle with 1/2 cup prune juice and 3 tablespoons vinegar. Sprinkle lightly with salt and pepper. Place pan over 2 burners and bring to boil. Cover pan with heavy-duty foil; place in oven.
Braise brisket until tender, about 3 hours 15 minutes. Uncover and cool 1 hour at room temperature. Can be made 2 days ahead. Cover with foil and chill. Bring just to simmer over 2 burners before continuing.
Remove brisket from roasting pan, scraping off juices. Place on work surface; cut across grain into 1/4-inch-thick slices. Spoon off fat from top of pan juices. Place 1 cup vegetables (no prunes) and 1 cup braising liquid from pan into processor and puree. Return puree to pan. Add remaining 1 tablespoon prune juice and 1 teaspoon vinegar to pan. Heat sauce; season with salt and pepper.
Overlap brisket slices in 13x9x2- inch glass baking dish. Pour sauce over brisket, separating slices to allow some sauce to flow between. DO AHEAD: Can be made 1 day ahead. Cover; chill.
Rewarm brisket, covered, in 350 F oven for 30 minutes. Sprinkle brisket with parsley; serve.

Thank you for sharing....

Dan
Semper Fi-cus

I used to like Brisket.

Me too Shaun.....thought I might even give smokin' another go but quite frankly I'm off brisket for now.

I haven't been to the forum much these days but 93 posts about brisket? I just had to read this one. I should probably let the thread die but I tried a yummy recipe a few months ago. I tried a few of the classic recipes and they were all good but my family was raving about Ina Garten's. We were all commenting about how good it was and I mentioned wanting to try V8 instead of tomato juice the next time. My brother's face was priceless. He said he couldn't imagine why I would want to change something so perfect. He doesn't get it. LOL I think I used low sodium Campbells tomato juice.

Brisket with carrots and onions
Ina Garten

• 6 to 7 pounds beef brisket
• 2 tablespoons kosher salt
• 2 teaspoons freshly ground black pepper
• 1 tablespoon minced garlic (4 cloves)
• 2 teaspoons dried oregano leaves
• 1 pound carrots, peeled and cut into 2-inch chunks
• 8 stalks celery, cut into 2-inch chunks
• 6 yellow onions, peeled and sliced
• 6 fresh or dried bay leaves
• 1 (46-ounce) can tomato juice

Directions
Preheat the oven to 350 degrees F.
Place the brisket in a heavy roasting pan. In a small bowl, combine the salt, pepper, garlic, and oregano. Rub the mixture on the brisket. Pile the carrots, celery, onions, and bay leaves on the brisket and pour in enough tomato juice to come about 3/4 of the way up the meat and vegetables. Cover the top of the pan with 2 sheets of parchment paper, then with aluminum foil. (The tomato juice will react unpleasantly with the aluminum foil if they touch.)

Bake for 3 1/2 hours, or until the meat is tender. Remove the meat from the pan and keep it warm. Place the pan on 2 burners and boil the vegetables and sauce over medium heat for another 30 minutes, or until the sauce is thickened.

To serve, slice the meat across the grain. Serve with the vegetables.