Before I started back working full time, I was making a lot of sourdough, but I had a starter that my friend Maartje gave me. So far, I haven't had luck making my own starter. She made hers by accident. Maybe I'll try to get her to make me some more - her kitchen might have a special magic for it that mine lacks. I can buy fantastic sourdough from La Brea Bakery, which is sold at all the local markets, but it's a bit expensive. I like La Brea Bakery sourdough much better than the sourdough I used to get when I lived in San Francisco, although I like what I made myself even better. Thanks for the instructions! Lars

hm....to tell the truth I have never checked the temp of my starter or my oven with/without the light or my bread dough or the starter as I was getting it going ! My house is 68 all winter and then in the Summer we keep the thermostat on 78. Whatever time of year it is all seems to do just fine. I have never made an exception for my bread dough other than to place it in the oven with the door propped open with an oven mitt. That is how it is today with the dough I am currently making. It has to rest at "room " temp for 3 hrs...with stretch and folds every 30 min for the first 2 hrs and then leave it alone for one hour. Then shape and let rise one hour at room temp then retard overnight and bake direct from fridge in 500 degree pre-heated pots tomorrow. I just checked my oven temp with the light on and it is 73. That is where I do my apple yeast water and my starter after I feed it and that is where my first and only , current , stater got going. One of the things they caution is not to over feed your starter...as in until it doubles don't feed again. I followed the method I linked 4 yrs ago and didn't have a problem. I know others on the Fresh Loaf have had to try about 3-4 times to get one going. I used rye flour from my local health food store and bottled water ( that is important when getting it started) and King Arthur white AP flour. It could be that is the problem with your first starter is over feeding. As to the second starter I wouldn't worry at all about "bad" stuff growing at this point. The tiny bubbles and concept of "bad" are not a problem at this point. Simply carry on and move it to a slightly cooler place and feed/discard and definitely stir well and give it air via a loose cover. It should be fine. As to the other one after 6 days if it has bubbles and has a fine odor I sure wouldn't discard it either. I would take out half and feed it and leave it where it is about 75 for 24 hrs and see what is what. As to apple yeast water just chop up 100g of apple and put it in the quart jar with 2/3 full filtered water...it does love the 80's so use your oven with light. Stir very well every couple hours all during the day for 3 days - 4 days. It is ready to rise bread. The apples will always float and the water will be VERY fizzy ! You can hear it ! It does need a lot of attn and warmth the first 3-4 days and then it is completely care free and can be in the fridge for weeks at a time and not used. Once you get your other starter going....and I do urge you to go to TFL and read some of the discussions on getting a starter going...I will tell you how to store it when not in use for lengths of time...when I am gone on a bicycle tour I leave mine unattended in the fridge for months. Keep us posted. c http://www.thefreshloaf.com/search/node/debra%20wink%20starting%20a%20sour%20dough%20starter read the first two articles by Debra Wink...linked above and then the link below...you will know more than I do when done :) Debra's way always works !! c Here is a link that might be useful: TFL...link to a lot of discussions

Ginny, the reason there are so many different ways to do things is that there are a lot that work. Having had a starter going for over a year now, I've found that it isn't that picky. For example, your original question of how much starter to add to make the sponge. It isn't critical. If the amount added is very small, then the sponge will take longer to double because it's starting out with very little yeast. If you add a lot and your starter is a wet one, then you may need to adjust the amount of flour you add to the bread later to get the dough right. I keep my starter in a glass jar in the fridge because it is a convenient size. I'm skeptical about the "no metal" thing. I wouldn't use a reactive metal, but I've stirred with stainless steel and haven't found it to do any harm. I sometimes let my dough rise in a stainless steel bowl. I was a bit worried about whether my starter survived chemo. I only managed to get it out once during the last 5 months when I went through several cycles of fed and double until it was doubling quickly again. Yesterday I finally got it out of the fridge again. It took a while to double (the house is pretty cool at this time of year too) but by this morning it had doubled. It is pretty hardy stuff.

This looks to be #150, so I'll start another sourdough thread with pie segue. :) Cathy, I know the liberated feeling you're talking about! I had it when I started these experiments with the discard. I do as I please with most baking recipes, usually to success. I don't have Grainlady's technical knowledge nor Ann's experience and expertise, but I know that if you control the basics, it'll come out. My mother's challah is so tetchy, however, that controlling it is enough without messing with it. A cousin did that when I was young, and tried using it as a base recipe for other breads, and they were breads, but I didn't really like them. You have to know how to not handle the challah (no typos there) to make it work out right. Add to that the old miseries of using cake yeast and I never messed with yeast dough before. I really liked the figgy loaf! Worrying about keeping the yeast alive rather than if I was going to ruin the bread was great. But that was one of those very soupy things, and if I try that again, I'll use less water/more flour. :) It's interesting that so many people think more hydration means lighter bread and more holes! That's the opposite to what I've experienced so far. Leader, like the ciabatta recipe, works the dough and develops the gluten. Controlled hydration seems to work better for me, and I definitely think the miche was too wet given how much better it got as it dried out. I had similar issues with the pizza recipe. One of the ones I tried, which was the result of much study in a pizza working group, was something like 90% hydration of whole wheat (though not soupy!). It was a very sticky dough and had to be made in a pan. It was not at all comfortable with toppings, though it was okay par-baked. Totally wrong for me, and it didn't have a good enough baked texture to stick with. It's not like my pizza recipe is low hydration. Just comparatively low. It's around 70% hydration. Cathy, I agree that inhaling pizza of any kind is frightening! Thank goodness for the widespread publicity for the Heimlich Maneuver! The miche is peasanty, as in plain old bread. I'd be happy to make the pain de levain for you! That has much more complexity even though it's mostly white. It's very yummy! The miche isn't as flavorless now, but it's not stand in line worthy, unfortunately. Next time. It was supposed to be record setting heat this weekend, but we're having monsoon influence, instead. Not the actual monsoons, which are farther South, but damp and cooler. Spaghetti and meatballs and ciabatta sounds delicious and decadent right now! (Decadent because two starches--my mother never served bread with pasta.) My favorite way to eat ciabatta, however, is with a goodly layer of good butter and an even thicker layer of powder grated good parmesan. This is the breakfast the Italian stewards on the ocean liner tempted my mother with when she was underfed and ill and returning home. I am not underfed, so I don't indulge, but the slightly salty, slightly sour bread with the sweet butter and salty, umami parm is just amazing. (Okay, I'm not underfed, but I haven't had breakfast...) Standing in line for the ciabatta... The gyros-ish meatloaf came out fine. It would have been better with more fat (who says that?), but the meat that needed using was very lean. I suppose I could have added some butter, but who does that? Not I. It's tasty, though. I didn't go full out on the seasoning (i.e., used the recipe) because I'd never made this recipe before. It could be kicked up a bit, but the flavor is about right. The leanness means I can be generous with the oil and grill some up later. :) No yoghurt sauce since since there are no pita either and my cucumbers and dill both bit it in the fridge. Tomatoes, onions and peppers will be fine. :) Ann, one lesson I learned best from you is to just put things in the fridge. Fermenting yeast things, that is. Just put it in the fridge. It's the most freeing thing I've learned recently. I've read all about it, of course, and the pizza recipe is one that's meant to develop in the fridge, but the way you just whip up a levain and throw it in the fridge until you're ready, or make up some do and go off to work, with instructions to Moe for when to take it out. Of course it's a given that cold retards yeast, but so much of my bread life until now has been about keeping yeast warm and cozy and encouraging it to rise, retarding the rise in the fridge to manage the slow process of sourdough is a revelation. Thank-you! Edited to add link and fix weird typo. This post was edited by plllog on Tue, Aug 5, 14 at 20:51