I use vodka instead of PART of the water....
If the crust cracks when you roll it out....a little more water may help...or perhaps it dried out after you made it but before you rolled it out.
However all crusts crack to some extent...just put a patch on it after you get it into the pan.
And you pretty well have to go by feel when making crust...as exact measurements on the water are iffy because of different flour and the humidity in the air.
I'll bet they are good any how.
Linda C

* Confession *

I've never made a pie crust.

Here's the recipe for the easiest to work with dough I've ever used...very flaky too!

Foolproof Pie Dough

Cook's Illustrated

The trick to this pie crust is the inclusion of vodka. Eighty-proof vodka, which is 60 percent water and 40 percent alcohol, adds moistness to the dough without aiding in gluten formation since gluten doesn't form in ethanol. Although the recipe includes 8 tablespoons of liquid, the alcohol vaporizes during baking, resulting in a tender crust that only contains 6 1/2 tablespoons of water. Because of the extra liquid, the dough will be moister than most standard pie doughs and will require up to 1/4 cup more flour.

- makes one 9-inch double-crust pie -

Ingredients
2 1/2 cups (12 1/2 ounces) unbleached all-purpose flour
1 teaspoon table salt
2 tablespoons sugar
12 tablespoons (1 1/2 sticks) cold unsalted butter, cut into 1/4-inch slices
1/2 cup cold vegetable shortening, cut into 4 pieces
1/4 cup cold vodka
1/4 cup cold water

Procedure
1. Process 1 1/2 cups flour, salt, and sugar in food processor until combined, about 2 one-second pulses. Add butter and shortening and process until homogeneous dough just starts to collect in uneven clumps, about 15 seconds (dough will resemble cottage cheese curds and there should be no uncoated flour). Scrape bowl with rubber spatula and redistribute dough evenly around processor blade. Add remaining cup flour and pulse until mixture is evenly distributed around bowl and mass of dough has been broken up, 4 to 6 quick pulses. Empty mixture into medium bowl.

2. Sprinkle vodka and water over mixture. With rubber spatula, use folding motion to mix, pressing down on dough until dough is slightly tacky and sticks together. Divide dough into two even balls and flatten each into 4-inch disk. Wrap each in plastic wrap and refrigerate at least 45 minutes or up to 2 days.

Nancy

Shaun...do you need me to come down there (Jan or Feb would be good) and give you a lesson????

How much fat are you adding to the dough? I use 1/3 cup of fat per cup of flour. I perfer either all butter or half butter, half shortening/lard. Also, it is my experience that a dough that doesn't have enough water is one that will crack.

Just keep adding ice water, mixing with a fork, until the dough is damp enough that it starts to come together in the bowl. Then quickly use your hands to bring it together. DO NOT over work the dough.

I didn't like the addition of vinegar or vodka in my crust. I didnt' feel like it improved my crust and I didn't like the flavour that they contributed.

Also I don't recommend making pastry in a food processor from start to finish. It is okay to cut the fat in using a FP, but never add the water. Pastry making is by "Touch/Feel" and you lose that using a food processor.

This is my favourite crust. Rolls out perfect every time.

Butter-Lard Pastry
==================
2 cups all purpose flour
3/4 teaspoon salt
1/3 cup butter
1/3 cup lard (or shortening- Crisco)
5 to 6 tablespoons of ice water, or more as needed

(note: if using for a sweet pie, add 1 or 2 teaspoons of sugar.)

Mix flour with salt, and cut in butter and lard.

You can cut the butter/lard in using the food processor or with a
pastry blender.

Or you can use a box grater for the butter.

Put flour mixture in bowl and add water mixing with a fork until pastry
comes together. Form in to a ball and cut in two pieces. Form each
into a round flat disc and refrigerate for 1 hour.

NOTE: Can be made with all butter

The secret to a good crust is to not over-handle the dough.

If you need a second vote...the pie crust recipe I use is exactly what Ann uses...but I often use half vodka for the liquid. I think it makes it flakier and while I don't notice a vodka taste in the crust...the crust is delicious.
The first time I tried the vodka, I was told by my kids that it was the best pie crust I had ever made....but maybe they were just hungry!

Yes Nancy I need you to come here and show me - hands on. That's how I roll.

*pun intended*

Ann that picture, omg. OK, silly question, how much butter is 1/3 cup if it's solid, my butter wrapper says 1/3 c = 5 1/3 TBS .......... 1/3 of a tablespoon? HUH?

I have intermittent success with pie crust. Sometimes it works beautifully, sometimes not. Anyway, this is the one I am going to try next that Annie posted - lots of great comments on it.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

NATHAN'S NEVER FAIL PASTRY
**********************************
These quantities make enough pastry for 3 double-crust pies or 3 1/2 dozen tart shells - muffin size.

5 cups flour
1 teasp salt
2 teasp baking powder
1 lb (454 grams) Tenderflake lard
2 teasp white vinegar
1 egg - slightly beaten. Add water to vinegar and egg to make 1 cup
1) Mix together flour, salt and baking powder. Cut in lard until crumbly (using two knives.)
2) Add liquid and mix gently with hands. (I use a fork to help me here.) Roll into a ball.
3) Roll out amount needed on a floured board. Refrigerate or freeze remainder.

Source: 'I've GOT To Have That Recipe'
Doubleday Canada - Victoria, B.C. 1986
sharoncb's tip: After step two I often put it in the fridge for an hour to make it firmer and easier to roll out.

Here is a link that might be useful: Nathan's thread

I use Nancy's vodka crust with great results and raves. I have used half butter/half lard. The texture is great but truthfully I don't like the lard flavor. I am going to make the next one all butter or half butter/half Crisco.

Shaun - Me neither, but it has now become an obsession/quest for me, until I get it right. I was also a bit put off by the 1/3 C/5 1/3 Tbs. but figured that if it was a bit off it wouldn't make much difference.

Linda C. - The fillings have been good and the crusts only so-so. I think getting the "feel" of it is what's doing me in. When I came home last week with 5 pounds of bing cherries and 5 pounds of peaches, DH said "Oh no, pies again?" (he's more of a cake guy). I told him it would be pies every week until I master the crust.

Ann T. - That is one of the recipes that I used, but it did not turn out like that. I am going to print that picture and tape it to the wall above my counter for inspiration.

Nancy - I think that I'm going to try the Cook's Illustrated recipe tomorrow. I like how descriptive the procedure is, so maybe that will keep me from screwing things up.

When I was purchasing the pie plates and cherry pitter, I got in to a discussion with the cashier about pie crusts. She told me that she has a very old rolling pin that she got from her Grandmother that is made of glass and you fill with ice water to keep the dough cold as you work it. Man, would I love to have one of those! I have a wooden one that is not very heavy at all and even after flouring it the dough tends to stick. I'm going to try greasing it with shortening and then coating it with flour and stick it in the fridge for awhile, maybe that will help.

Thanks for all the posts and advice, everyone. I'll let you know how it turns out.

One more thought tmd -- are you letting the dough rest in the fridge before rolling it out? It actually takes the flour in your dough a little while to hydrate -- to disperse the water through all of the flour in it. So I find that dough that would be too crumbly to roll immediately, and that would crack around the edges if I rolled it right when I make it, is fine to roll out after it has been tightly wrapped in plastic wrap for a few hours in the fridge.

The other thing I can suggest for a surface to roll it out is a very well floured silpat. I rub lots of flour into the silpat, and then flour the dough, and that is by far more successful in preventing sticking than just heavily flouring the counter...

I have been using the Cook's Illustrated pie crust since it came out. I do cut the butter back some and it is still fine and I don't miss the extra butter at all. I use half butter and half crisco (not butter flavored)
I like to cut frozen butter into cubes and flatten with my fingers as I mix the dough by hand. If it starts to warm up at all, it goes in the freezer for awhile.
However, the vodka pie crust is more forgiving about getting warm.

I don't use lard because I have never seen fresh lard here and well, it just seems like a lot more work to find it when I'm happy enough with what I current use.
I also make most of my pies from Thanksgiving through Christmas and I want to be able to buy a new package of shortening for the holidays and have it last for 6 weeks. the lard has a short shelf life, I would think, although I could freeze it.
And it's psychological.
Butter=yum! Lard= obese trailer trash.
Sorry! I know the lard is healthier (relatively) than plastic shortening.

sorry...lard...pie like grandma made
Butter...newfangled chi chi crust.
Butter and vodka..don't even go there!! LOL!

I don't ever recall seeing lard in the grocery store either, but that's probably because I wasn't looking for it. Months ago (before my pie crust obsession) I do recall seeing it in the processed meats/dairy section. I've been using shortening, but maybe I'll get the lard and try it instead. I may be rationalizing here, but it seems to me that even with an all butter crust, fruit pies are a relatively healthy dessert (if there is such a thing)the fruit already has a lot of natural sugar so you really don't have to add a lot and the crust is thin enough that you're not really getting a lot of that either. Now if I could just stop topping the darned thing with French Vanilla ice cream!

Linda, butter and vodka - these are a few of my favorite things...(and bacon and wine and the list goes on, LOL!)

TMD15, good luck on the pie crust, keep at it, you'll find the method that works for you.
My family was a pie family, I watched my GM and DM make pies as far back as my memory serves..

I want to caution you about greasing your rolling pin and dusting it with flour.. you might find yourself in trouble as soon as you start to roll and the flour wears off.

In the old days, we used to cover a wooden rolling pin with a Cotton knit type of sleeve and dust that with flour and our pie crust was always rolled out on a very well seasoned pastry cloth (heavy linen or cotton) that was dusted liberally with flour. Keep more flour handy...
After 3 or 4 strokes, flip the dough, checking to see if you might need more flour on the cloth. Dust the top of the dough lightly and finish rolling, dust with flour as needed.

Fast forward to current....

I roll my dough out on a marble slab (it's cooler) on a sheet of well floured parchment paper, using a Teflon coated rolling pin. I use the parchment paper because it is easy to lift up the dough to begin rolling the dough around the rolling pin when I'm ready to transfer it to the pie plate.

Handle you dough as little as possible and start with cold dough if time permits.

Nancy

I use the same recipe Caliloo suggested, Nathan's Never Fail Pastry and love it. Its perfect no matter what, plus I can make enough for three double crust pies and freeze what I don't need on the spot. In fact, I have a blueberry pie in the oven right now that was made with the last of the batch which I had frozen. Time to get out the food processor again.

I found the lard in a one pound container (like a cottage cheese container) on the baking aisle on the bottom shelf where they have the shortening. I think I got it at WalMart, but I know the other stores have it as well.

I also use the vodka recipe, but I cut back on the liquid (I only use half the water and all the vodka) cause otherwise it is too wet. Also, I will NOT use the food processor. When I do it by hand, it turns out great. If I use the food processor, it mixes in too much.
The truth is, you did nothing wrong. I make lots and lots of pies. I have used lots and lots of crust recipes. They ALL crack around the edges. I just lift them into the pan when I am done rolling, and repair after the top is on. I do, however, like the flakiness of the vodka recipe. I also do not taste any off taste from it. As a matter of fact, yesterday I made a sour cherry and a fresh peach pie and stuck them in the freezer. Yummy. (And guess what...I repaired the crusts)
Just keep at it. You will get better and better.
Sherry

Along with all the other great suggestions... Some cracking at edges is expected and quite normal, which is why you roll the pastry larger than needed and cut to fit. But if you have extra long cracks, perhaps these hints on how to roll the crust may help.

-Use a long tapered rolling pin, instead of a traditional rolling pin.

-Hold your left hand stationary (close to the bottom of your dough round, and roll in an arc with your left hand. Turn the dough 1/4 turn after every roll.

-Every 10-seconds or so, lift dough up onto rolling pin (using a bench knife). Flip the dough over and reflour the counter as necessary.

-To make a perfect circle, roll away from the center.

-Trim the dough with kitchen scissors; leave a half-inch boarder for single-crust pies. Trim tight to rim of pie plate for 2-crust pies.

-Grainlady

I also use Nathan's Never Fail Pastry, it's the easiest thing to handle that I've ever found.

Like Sheshebop, I don't use the food processor, it just doesn't work well for me, I cut in the lard by hand.

Yes, I use lard when I have it. We have a mexican market locally and they always seem to have fresh lard. I've bought Armour and it was awful, it seemed stale or something.

In a pinch, I use shortening and/or butter, depending on my mood and the filling, but I think lard makes the best crust. Of course, Grandma wouldn't use anything else, so my perspective may be skewed.

I don't care for pie crust, I mostly eat the filling and Cooper "disposes" of the crust for me, he's such a helpful dog. LOL

Annie

Oh, and believe it or not, the best rolling pin I ever used was an empty Kessler's whiskey bottle filled with ice water! When we owned the bar and grille, I made homemade pies. the first time I made them I didn't have a rolling pin, so I grabbed an empty bottle, scrubbed it up and filled it with ice water. It worked so well that I used it for quite a long time before breaking down and buying a rolling pin.

I always get small cracks on the edges, as Sherry mentioned, that's why you roll out bigger than the pan, then trim the edges.

I did try rolling out on my silpat, but that was a disaster, it stuck and tore. It works if I flour it, but that's what I was trying to avoid, although it is easy to pick up and move and the silpat is washable when I'm out of parchment.

Annie

LOL! Once years ago....when DH and I were on about our 2nd or 3rd date....we bought apples and I went to his apartment to make an apple pie for him and his room mates. No rolling pin, so I used an IW harper bottle....but it had raised letters and the pie crust was imprinted with "IW Harper". LOL!
I was 19 at the time and could make an apple pie with no recipe and no rolling pin! LOL!

I'm another who can't get it right using a FP.

I freeze the fat (butter/lard in my case) and then use the large side of a box grater. It's the perfect size pieces for me so all I've got to do is give a quick toss with the flour & add the liquid.

I've never used the vodka but I'm going to try it this week. We've got lots of peaches & I'm craving peach pie.

/tricia

Just to report back, this morning I made two more crusts. I used AnnT's sour cream recipe, and it was even easier to handle than the vodka recipe. It was not as delicate as the vodka recipe which tears easily. I have not tasted it yet. This weekend I will be making a tomato tart and a crab quiche using the sour cream crusts,so then I will let you know if it tasted as great as it was to work with.

tmd- don't use Crisco or some shortening. Use butter. You can tell shortening immediately by the waxy coating it leaves in your mouth - it's why I never buy baked goods unless they're from good local bakeries. Butter comes with different amounts of fat/water, but the flavor from butter is ALWAYS superior to artificial fats.

You said your crust is cracking - I think your ingredients aren't the problem, it's your handling.

The only things you need for an outstanding pie crust are flour, water, butter, and a pinch of salt. Blend the butter into the flour using your hands or a food processor. Don't overdo it - leave some big chunks in there. Don't look for consistently sized pieces.

Add the water really quickly. I put an ice cube into a small glass and use that, but if I don't have ice, which is normal because I rarely use it, I use lemonade or something else that's in the fridge and cold. Milk changes the texture of the crust, so don't use that unless you want a different style of crust.

Blend the water into the flour/butter/salt mix. Here's the key - don't use too little water. Make sure you've got enough to actually make a dough, not a crumbly pile. So if you're using a recipe rather than your memory, don't lock yourself into their measurements - you can never cook if you're measuring and weighing all the time. Recipes tend to be conservative w water, so if you think you need more, use more. Use the recipe as a suggestion, not a straight jacket.

When you have the dough in a ball, with the palm of your hand, smear it across your countertop. The French call this "fraisage". For a single pie, smear it about 10 inches. Gather it up and do it again and that's it! Don't keep doing it or you will end up kneading the dough.

Then gather the dough into a ball and cover it and put it aside for at least 30 minutes. More time is better and this is where people fail. Americans want things done quickly, but time is also an ingredient and in fact, it's an important ingredient. You can put the dough into the fridge if you make it the day before.

The issue is the water needs to fully penetrate the little starch molecules. This takes time and time is the whole issue. Americans like things done fast, but there is nothing at all that replaces time. After a couple of hours, your dough will be easy to roll out and your crust will be excellent. Incidentally, the same thing goes with cookies, only more so. Put your cookie dough away for a few days and compare the cookies to those from a fresh made dough.

Anyhow, it took me a long time to learn this - my crust always cracked too. Then I watched a woman who was an expert and in two minutes, I got it. Eventually I opened a pastry shop with a French baker. That was over 35 years ago and I've been baking longer than that. Pie crust is super easy - just figure out how to get your timing down. I make it at breakfast, do whatever I need to do during the day, and roll it out for dinner or the next day.

Good luck and happy baking!

IMHO,shortening and butter both work. I made pie crusts for 30 years with shortening, and everybody loved them. Butter is the new cool thing to use, but shortening works fine. Long before shortening and butter people used lard, and many people swear by that. Personally, I think the crust is wonderful with lard, but it is so tender that it is hard to handle without breakage.
So, I guess what I am saying is, it does not matter which fat you use. They all work fine, but it does take experience to get a feel for it. I don't care who makes the crust and what fat they use, I will eat it! I love pie!

Sherry, I have to agree with you. I've had some wonderful tender flaky crusts made from all lard, all shortening and all butter. The secret to a great crust really is in the handling. Practice definitely makes perfect when it comes to making pastry.

I hope you like the sour cream crust. It is the only other pie crust recipe that I use.

Ann

I'm going to add my 2 cents worth in here. I've used lard, shortening and butter and a combination of any of those three and all three made perfectly fine crusts.

The secret IS in the handling. As an "impatient American", I seldom chill dough, but I don't need it to look perfect either, I'm perfectly happy "patching", as long as it tastes good. I'm far more concerned with flavor than presentation.

That's one of the reasons I like the Nathan's pastry, I can roll it right out without chilling and it's still easy to handle. Lard makes a much more tender crust, it's harder to deal with, as is butter, at least for me. Shortening makes a sturdier dough, but butter tastes better!

Annie

Another American cook here who seldom does anything "always".
If you will take a blob of butter, one of lard and another or crisco and allow them to sit at room temperature for 3 hours. Note the differences in texture at that time....and that's part of what makes some crusts difficult to handle.
I think the best crust is made with lard...good fresh lard. I love the sort of meaty taste.
But like Annie I have made crust with butter, lard and crisco and combinations there of. And once in some misguided attempt to make a healthy pie, I used Wesson oil....won't do that again!
I usually don't chill the dough before rolling, unless in some attempt to make a later meal easier and quicker, I will make the dough ahead, clean up that mess and roll the crust just before I make the quiche or whatever.
Linda C

Lard has a larger fat crystal than other fats, which is one reason it works so well in pastry. Butter gives great flavor but has a lot of water in it and it melts quickly. The combination of lard and butter in pastry is a great twosome. When I use coconut oil (frozen and grated on the large hole on my box grater), I can reduce the amount of fat by about 25 percent, especially when using pastry flour or milling soft wheat or low-gluten spelt into flour to use for pastry.

Good pastry is a combination of tenderness and flakiness and each characteristic is developed differently. Pastry is all about reducing the gluten development in the flour, so choose flour (pastry flour or Southern All-Purpose flours like Martha White, White Lily, Gladiola, Red Band) that has a low protein/gluten content to begin with as a great way to reduce gluten-development up front. If you want more tender pastry while using all-purpose flour you can add a little more fat and add an acid ingredient.

Divide the cold fat in two portions and mix one half in the flour until it's very finely mixed. This will coat the flour so it develops the gluten in short strands (hence short-crust pastry) when the liquid is mixed in and will give a tender crust.

Quickly add the remaining fat and keep it in larger blobs. When the heat of the oven melts the blobs of fat the steam will raise those layers in the pastry we recognize as a flaky pastry.

Vinegar in a recipe is another way to decrease the gluten-development. Adding an acid brings one more tenderizer into play. "Acids soften gluten, breaking apart gluten strands and keeping the pastry tender."

When eggs are used in a pastry recipe it is best used for something like a meat pie. The protein from the egg will reinforce the structure of the pastry, making it strong enough to hold a hefty filling.

When liquid vegetable oil is used to make pastry it is considered a "warm fat", which coats each particle of flour so completely than no gluten develops. Oil pastries are very tender and tend to be more mealy than flaky since you don't have steam raising those flaky layers. Oil pastry is generally easier to handle and is easy to roll between two sheets of waxed paper. It's neither right or wrong what type of pastry you make - it's just one of those cooking/baking choices we make - BUT - as a general rule of thumb don't take an oil pastry to the fair because it will tend to get judged down because they rarely come up to judging standards.

If a sticky dough that is hard to roll-out is your problem, you have too much gluten developed - probably from adding too much liquid and/or using flour that has a high protein content. Northern all-purpose flours like King Arthur and Robin Hood really don't make good pastry because of the high amount of protein.

Add as little water as possible!!! As soon as lumps of dough stick together during mixing, stop mixing and adding water. It takes very little extra water, as little as 1/2 teaspoon, to quickly toughen the dough.

-Grainlady

Thank you so much, Grainlady! First a little background-I have been baking pies for years and have always been great at it....except for recently. The crust has turned to a grainy mess and I have about had it with the whole pie-making thing. I have tried switching mixing methods (went back to mixing with pastry blender) and started using lard instead of shortening. I put it in the refrigerator before rolling out. I switched flour brands and that just made it worse. (I switched to King Arthur and, after reading your post, know I need to find something else). My crust calls for two cups flour, salt, and one cup shortening. I am going to try it with 2/3 c. lard and see if it improves. The liquid in the recipe is 1/3 c. milk mixed with one egg yolk, which brings me to my next question. You said to add as little liquid as possible-my dough never seems to really need any additional liquid after I mix the fat and flour-is that because I am using too much fat? Thanks for any input you all can give me.

I make pie crust often using King Arthur AP. Works just fine!

I agree, beachlily, that's what I used for my last batch. It's also what I'll use for my next batch, because that's what I bought, LOL.

If your crust seems like it needs no liquid at all, I'd definitely say too much fat...

Annie

All this talk gave me a real hankering for pie, so...yesterday, I decided to make Nathan's. The recipe is similar to my go-to crust recipe, except for the addition of the baking powder, which piqued my curiosity. Well, long story short, DD and her BF were sitting at the counter talking to me while I mixed it up and before I knew it, I'd absentmindedly chopped 2 sticks of butter and 2 cups of Crisco into the dry ingredients! Only thing I could think to do was add another 5 cups of flour, etc., and make a double batch!

I made a pecan pie last night and will probably freeze most of the 9 discs of dough that are in the fridge right now. The crust was very good and the crimped edge didn't slump over while baking. If/when I finish these crusts, I want to try the vodka!