I'm still curious about why the meat needed to be sanitized. This reminds me of my dearly departed aunt who was so worried about "germs" that she used to wash her chicken with "just a little" Clorox in the water. We were all scared to death to eat her chicken! Here is what the USDA has to say about washing meat and poultry: Washing Meat and Poultry Washing raw poultry, beef, pork, lamb, or veal before cooking it is not recommended. Bacteria in raw meat and poultry juices can be spread to other foods, utensils, and surfaces. We call this cross-contamination. Some consumers think they are removing bacteria and making their meat or poultry safe. However, some of the bacteria are so tightly attached that you could not remove them no matter how many times you washed. But there are other types of bacteria that can be easily washed off and splashed on the surfaces of your kitchen. Failure to clean these contaminated areas can lead to foodborne illness. Cooking (baking, broiling, boiling, and grilling) to the right temperature kills the bacteria, so washing food is not necessary. Using a food thermometer is the only sure way of knowing if your food has reached a high enough temperature to destroy foodborne bacteria. Cook all raw beef and veal steaks, roasts, and chops to a minimum internal temperature of 145 degrees F as measured with a food thermometer before removing meat from the heat source. For safety and quality, allow meat to rest for at least three minutes before carving or consuming. For reasons of personal preference, consumers may choose to cook meat to higher temperatures. Here is a link that might be useful: USDA food safety

LOL, Livercicles! That's how my girls like their liver too and it's definitely not as messy as thawed liver. Glad to hear things are going so well. FWIW, my girls can't handle the raw eggs either, so either I boil them or they get scrambled once a week ( they also got the verpy's with raw eggs and sometimes squirty). Spedigrees, it can be difficult and time consuming to wade through all of the information out there and yeah, there are extremist on either side of the fence. It would be nice if raw was the answer to all heath issues, but there is no magic bullet with any given method ( that includes the vaccine and de-worming issues as well). I would love to hear meghane's view on the bone issue. If you look at it on simplistic level, raw bones are soft and pliable (excluding the heavy weight bearing bones which are pretty hard but probably still digestable if they don't break a tooth) while the cellular composition of the bones when the cook change and become hard and brittle. That's when the become dangerous to ingest. As far as parasites, I've never personally had any issue but there is always some risk. What alot of folks don't realize is that that risk carries over to kibble as well (I know you cook, so no issue there for you). I've got an article that I am putting below that addresses that. Sorry I don't have a link, it's in my files for folks that approach me with questions about raw feeding. Risk, raw feeding, and pathogens: a review Assessing the potential risk involved in feeding dogs raw meat is complicated. Some of the issues I'd like to discuss are assessing the potential risk of to the dogs, assessing the risk to humans who are around raw-fed dogs, and the general issue of how to evaluate risks. References are in parentheses, and a list of sources can be found at the end of this article, with short excerpts and web links to full-text or author's abstracts in most cases. RISKS TO DOGS First, the issue of risk in feeding a raw diet is not simple. ALL foods have some degree of risk, so the question isn't whether risk exists. The question is whether the risk is unacceptable. You may think you want zero risk - but that's not a choice you get in life, because all foods carry some type of risk. Raw meat can indeed be contaminated with e. coli 0157, camphylobacter, or other pathogens. However, kibble can also contain disease-causing mold and other pathogens. Studies by Bueno (2001), Gunsen (2002), and Maia (2002) found aflatoxin, a toxic mold, in pet food samples. Aflatoxin contamination of dog kibble resulted in approximately 25 dog deaths in 1998 (Texas) and vomitoxin was found in batches of Nature's Recipe kibble in 1995 (Food and Drug Administration, 1995). At least seven dogs have died from unknown contamination of Petcurean pet food, recalled by the manufacturer in October 2003 (Syufy, 2003). Bacteria and mold are not the only risks involved in choosing a food for your pet. For example, there is some research that says that small particle size of food is a risk factor in bloat, so with regard to bloat, feeding large meaty bones would be less risky than feeding any kibble (Theyse, 1998). Even the packaging of commercial food can carry some risk, as one study of canned pet foods showed that Bisphenol A, an industrial chemical and suspected endocrine disruptor leached from the cans into the food (Kang, 2002). Dogs are more resistant to most of the common raw meat pathogens than are humans. (Consider the fact that many dogs use the kitty litter box as a snack tray without ill effects. Does anyone really want to argue that cat feces are free of pathogens?) Dogs are resistant - NOT immune - from the disease potential of these pathogens, and healthy dogs can harbor them without symptoms. Beutin (1993) found verotoxin producing e. coli in 4.8% of apparently healthy dogs and Dahlinger (1997) cultured various types of bacteria, including some forms of e. coli and salmonella from the lymph nodes of 52% of apparently healthy dogs brought in for elective spays. Most dogs can eat clean raw meat without a problem, even if the same raw meat would make humans very sick. Still, a dog with a compromised immune system or digestive system is going to be more at risk for illness from any infectious agent than a dog who is healthy. So I would be reluctant to feed raw meat to an ill dog, a very young puppy, or a very elderly dog who has not previously been fed a raw diet. I recently posted a article to the VETMED list about KSU's studies on Alabama Rot (a/k/a hemolytic uremic syndrome) in Greyhounds fed raw meat. (Greyhounds, 1995) Some people immediately posted "atta girl" posts to me privately. While I have no doubts about the accuracy of the KSU research, I think most of the readers of VETMED are unaware of exactly what kind of raw meat is fed to racing greyhounds. Racing greyhounds are routinely fed raw "4-D meat" as part of their diet. 4-D meat is unfit for human consumption because the source of it is animals that died of natural causes (not via normal slaughter procedures) and includes animals which were diseased, or dying when they went into the slaughterhouse. This is meat which has either not been inspected by the USDA or it failed the inspection. This is not the quality of meat most pet owners buy if they are feeding their pets raw meat. 4-D meat is very foul stuff, and has the potential to contain much more in the way of pathogens than the meat that you buy in the supermarket. I would never feed a dog raw 4-D meat. I don't know of any published veterinary reports of Alabama Rot in pet dogs fed raw diets from USDA-inspected meat. It is, unfortunately, mainly a problem caused specifically by the feeding of unwholesome raw 4-D meat - not raw meat generally. But raw meat is not alone in having bacterial contamination problems. There are case reports of pathogens found in commercially produced dog food and in dog treats such as rawhide, pig ears, jerky, and chew hooves. (Human, 2000, as well as Clark et al, 2001; White et al. 2003; Bren 2000; FDA, 2000, Canadian Food Inspection Agency 1999 and 2000). According to the FDA, "all pet chew products of this type may pose a risk" (FDA, 1999). So, my personal opinion is that with regard to the dog's health, feeding USDA graded raw meat to dogs is a reasonable choice for some owners to make as long as precautions are taken to avoid excess risk (for example, don't let the meat sit around at room temperature before giving it to the dog.) RISK TO HUMANS Studies of pet dogs have shown e. coli O157 and salmonella in the feces of pet dogs - but most of these studies were not limited to dogs fed raw diets. So, kibble fed dogs and dogs fed rawhides, pig ears, and chew hooves also carry this risk. However, before getting too fixated on dogs as a source of pathogens for humans, consider that the most notorious cases of food poisoning have been caused by poor hygiene from human sources - such as cooks and farmers. While undercooked and raw meat is sometimes implicated in food poisoning cases, there have been an enormous number of cases of salmonella and e. coli from fruits and vegetables. The seemingly innocuous bean sprout has been linked to many outbreaks of food poisoning, as have melons, salads, and apple cider (Health Canada, 2002, and USDA 1995.) In other words, while raw meat is a a risk, so is almost ANY uncooked food that you eat. There has been one salmonella outbreak linked to almonds. (Chan et al. 2002) So, are people at additional risk of getting pathogens from coming in contact with a dog fed raw meat? There isn't a lot of research that is directly on topic for this. There are studies of raw-fed dogs (Joffe and Schlesinger, 2002) but these do not carefully compare the raw fed dogs to a similar population fed commercial dog food. (See the commentary on Joffe's study by New n.d.). I have seen studies of pet dogs that show that food-borne pathogens were present in a surprisingly large proportion of the dogs tested. Hackett and Lappin (2003) found infectious agents in the feces of 26% of healthy Colorado dogs. As far as I can tell, this study was NOT limited to dogs eating raw diets. Fukata et al (2002) found salmonella antibodies in 15% of apparently healthy dogs. I think that you can reduce any potential risk of food poisoning related to dogs by simply having good hygiene - scrupulously washing your hands after cleaning up after your dog and washing up thoroughly before eating. Keeping the dog itself clean probably doesn't hurt, either. And it would make sense to avoid letting your dog lick you right after eating a chicken neck. For these reasons, I think that someone with pets and toddlers might want to avoid raw diets because small children will not follow the above rules. Kids often will let the dog lick their face any old time, and they may even try to taste the dog's meals. (Sato et al. 2000.) RISK ASSESSMENT Aside from the concept of 'relative risk' there is the question of risk versus benefit. If people were completely happy with the health of dogs from kibble feeding, the entire "raw foods" movement would have never taken root. There's nothing more convenient than pouring kibble into a dish. So some people must be seeing a benefit from feeding raw. I think that most veterinarians' assessment of risk from raw diets is skewed by the fact that normal, healthy dogs are not generally seen by vets, and that most nutrition research is done using commercial diets. If there is a large population of totally healthy dogs eating raw diets, they may never be noticed by a veterinarian. On the other hand, vets will usually see the dogs who got the 3-day old chicken bones from the garbage can, or the one whose owner misguidedly thought it was a good idea to give their dog the skin and bones from their holiday turkey. Raw diets do carry risk. These can be reduced by feeding the freshest cleanest meat the owner can buy and following all the rules about temperature, storage and hygiene (FSIS, 1999). Kibble diets and dog treats also carry risk - and these can be reduced by buying fresh and high-quality food, rather than the cheapest stuff available, and by following proper storage and hygiene rules. But it's worth noting that some of the priciest brands of kibble were recalled because of toxic contamination, so a high price does not ensure safety. I don't think there is one right way to feed dogs. I think that careful attention to nutrition and hygiene reduce the risk associated with whatever feeding regimen you choose. It's interesting to note that feeding raw meat is intensely controversial, while feeding pig ears and jerky - which carry similar if not higher risks for contamination - is widely accepted as reasonably safe. Incidentally, in case anyone is wondering, the main diet for my dogs is free-fed kibble. I free feed because it helps prevent gluttony, and I have never had a case of bloat in Greyhounds, which are a somewhat bloat-prone breed. I also routinely feed my dogs raw chicken parts. I feed bony chicken parts because I have found this to be the most effective way of keeping my dogs' teeth clean. I haven't noticed any other big change in their health, but they love the chicken parts and their teeth are clean and their breath sweet as a result. Greyhounds are notorious for foul teeth as they age, but even my oldest dog has remarkably clean teeth. With regard to the risk, I can only share my experience, in that I've not seen any illnesses in the dogs I can attribute to the raw meat nor to the kibble. I made my choice because I know of more pet greyhounds that have died from the anesthesia involved in teeth cleaning and other elective surgeries than have died from eating a raw diet. I wrote this article to seriously examine the question a VETMED subscriber asked about the potential for risk when using raw-fed dogs as therapy dogs. As long as the dogs aren't fed raw meat during therapy sessions, I don't see a problem. While these dogs may carry pathogens, so may dogs fed kibble or pig ears, or rawhide. One survey found salmonella contamination of 41% of the dog treats examined (White et al, 2003). Accordingly, it would be not be logical or fair to bar raw fed dogs from a therapy dog program, unless you are also barring all dogs who are fed pig ears, rawhides, and other similar treats. REFERENCES Beutin L, Geier D, Steinruck H, Zimmermann S, Scheutz F. (1993). Prevalence and some properties of verotoxin (Shiga-like toxin)-producing Escherichia coli in seven different species of healthy domestic animals. Journal of Clinical Microbiology, 31(9):2483-8. "Fecal samples from 720 healthy, domestic animals representing seven different species (cattle, sheep, goats, pigs, chickens, dogs, and cats) were investigated for verotoxin (VT [Shiga-like toxin])-producing Escherichia coli (VTEC). VTEC were isolated from 208 animals (28.9%), most frequently from sheep (66.6% VTEC carriers), goats (56.1%), and cattle (21.1%). VTEC were isolated less frequently from pigs (7.5%), cats (13.8%), and dogs (4.8%) and were not found in chickens (Bren, L (2000, November). Pet treats can make you ill. FDA Veterinarian, 15(5). "Pet treats made from the dried ears, hooves, lungs, and bones of pigs and cows have been implicated in Salmonella poisoning in humans." Bueno DJ, Silva JO, Oliver G. (2001). Mycoflora in commercial pet foods. Journal of Food Protection, 64(5):741-3. "This article reports on the identification of mycoflora of 21 dry pet foods (12 belonging to dogs and 9 to cats) that corresponded to 8 commercial brands [...] Some genera and species isolated and identified from the foods analyzed are potentially producing toxins, which are known as mycotoxins. This involves a risk for animal health." Canadian Food Inspection Agency (1999). Food Recall Archives. 9/24 - "Presence of Salmonella bacteria in pig ear dog treats" [Farm Meats Canada] 9/25 - "Possible presence of salmonella bacteria in EURO-CAN PIG EAR and other dog treats" 10/12 - "Presence of salmonella bacteria in dog treats" [Rollover, Co-op, PC, and Safeway] 11/19 - "Presence of Salmonella bacteria in certain UNCLE SAM'S brand dog treats" [Sargeant's Pet Products] 11/19 - "Presence of Salmonella bacteria in certain rawhide dog treats" [Avant RawHide] 12/1 - "Possibility of Salmonella bacteria in JAWBONE brand roasted pig ears" 12/6 - "Presence of Salmonella bacteria in ROLLOVER brand dog treats" 12/7 - "Presence of Salmonella bacteria in dog treats." [Co-op Gold and President's Choice] Canadian Food Inspection Agency (2000). Food Recall Archives. 3/1 - "HEALTH HAZARD ALERT - Dog treats may contain Salmonella." [Hartz rawhide] Chan ES, Aramini J, Ciebin B, Middleton D, Ahmed R, Howes M, Brophy I, Mentis I, Jamieson F, Rodgers F, Nazarowec-White M, Pichette SC, Farrar J, Gutierrez M, Weis WJ, Lior L, Ellis A, Isaacs S. (2002). Natural or raw almonds and an outbreak of a rare phage type of Salmonella enteritidis infection. Canadian Communicable Diseases Report, 28(12):97-9. Clark C, Cunningham J, Ahmed R, Woodward D, Fonseca K, Isaacs S, Ellis A, Anand C, Ziebell K, Muckle A, Sockett P, Rodgers F (2002). Characterization of salmonella associated with pig ear dog treats in Canada. Journal of Clinical Microbiology, 39(11):3962-8. Dahlinger J, Marks SL, Hirsh DC (1997). Prevalence and identity of translocating bacteria in healthy dogs. Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine, 1997 Nov-Dec;11(6):319-22. European Commission (1998, October 30). Report of the Scientific Committee on Veterinary Measures relating to Public Health (SCVPH) on Benefits and Limitations of Antimicrobial Treatments for Poultry Carcasses. FDA - Food and Drug Administration (2000). Nationwide Recall of Medalist Brand Pig Ear Treats Due to Possible Salmonella Contamination. HHS News May 23, 2000. "Treat Makers, L.L.C., a manufacturer of natural pet treats, is voluntarily recalling Medalist brand pig ear pet treats, lot numbers 07600EXU3 and 08300EXU1, due to possible contamination with Salmonella. Pet owners can become ill by touching their mouth or food without washing their hands after handling the pet treats." FDA - Food and Drug Administration (1999). FDA Issues Nationwide Public Health Advisory about Contaminated Pet Chews. HHS News October 1, 1999. "The Food and Drug Administration today issued a nationwide public health warning alerting consumers about a number of recent cases in Canada of human illnesses apparently related to contact with dog chew products made from pork or beef-derived materials (e.g., pigs ears, beef jerky treats, smoked hooves, pigs skins, etc.). [...] Initial reports of illnesses came from Canada and involved Canadian products, but subsequent examination of similar products produced in the U.S. indicate that all pet chew products of this type may pose a risk." Food and Drug Administration (1995). Recalls and Field Corrections: Veterinary Products -- Class II FDA Enforcement Report, Oct. 11, 1995. "Product: Nature's Recipe Pet Food (dry) in 5, 20, and 40 pound paper bags (canine) and 4, 8, and 20 paper bags (feline) [...] Products are adulterated with the micotoxin vomitoxin, which may cause dogs and cats to become ill (vomiting and/or diarrhea)." FSIS - Food Safety and Inspection Service, U.S. Dept. of Agriculture (1999). The Poultry Label Says "Fresh" Fukata T, Naito F, Yoshida N, Yamaguchi T, Mizumura Y, Hirai K (2002). Incidence of salmonella infection in healthy dogs in Gifu Prefecture, Japan. Journal of Veterinary Medical Science, 64(11):1079-1080. Greyhounds Provide Model for E. Coli Food Poisoning in Humans (1995). K-State Press Release, December 1995. Gunsen U, Yaroglu T (2002). Aflatoxin in dog and horse feeds in turkey. Veterinary and Human Toxicology 44(2):113-4. "Aflatoxin levels were determined by ELISA in 18 dog and 20 horse feed samples, collected from different firms from June 2000 to June 2001 in Turkey. The minimum and maximum levels of total aflatoxin in the dog and horse feeds were Hackett T, Lappin MR (2003). Prevalence of enteric pathogens in dogs of north-central Colorado. Journal of the American Animal Hospital Association, 39(1):52-6. "Infectious agents potentially associated with gastrointestinal disease were detected in 34 of 130 (26.1%) fecal samples. Agents with zoonotic potential were detected in feces from 21 (16.2%) of 130 dogs and included Giardia spp. (5.4%), Cryptosporidium parvum (3.8%), Toxocara canis (3.1%), Salmonella spp. (2.3%), Ancylostoma caninum (0.8%), and Campylobacter jejuni (0.8%). Positive test results occurred in dogs with or without gastrointestinal signs of disease." Health Canada (2002). Risks Associated with Sprouts "Worldwide between 1995 to 2001, there have been 13 outbreaks of foodborne illnesses linked to sprouts. In most instances, the illnesses were caused by either Escherichia coli (E. coli) O157:H7 or Salmonella bacteria." "Anyone who eats raw sprouts is at risk for exposure to E. coli O157:H7 or Salmonella bacteria. However, the risk of serious health effects is greater for young children, seniors, and people with weak immune systems." Human Health Risk from Exposure to Natural Dog Treats (2000). Canadian Communicable Disease Report 26(06):41-42. "In August 1999, the province of Alberta reported an increase in Salmonella Infantis cases. The initial investigation conducted by the regional public-health authority of Calgary, Alberta, demonstrated that eight of 12 S. Infantis cases were dog owners, and that nine of 12 had had exposure to pig ear dog treats." Joffe DJ, Schlesinger DP (2002). Preliminary assessment of the risk of Salmonella infection in dogs fed raw chicken diets. Canadian Veterinary Journal, 43(6):441-2. "Salmonella was isolated from 80% of the BARF diet samples (P Kang JH, Kondo F (2002). Determination of bisphenol A in canned pet foods. Research in Veterinary Science, 73(2):177-82. "The concentration of BPA ranged from 13 to 136 ng/g in canned cat food and from 11 to 206 ng/g in dog food." Maia PP, Pereira Bastos de Siqueira ME (2002). Occurrence of aflatoxins B1, B2, G1 and G2 in some Brazilian pet foods. Food Additives and Contaminants, 19(12):1180-3. "One hundred food samples (45 for dogs, 25 for cats, 30 for birds) were collected at random from pet shops in Alfenas city, south-east Brazil. [...] Aflatoxins were detected in 12.0% of the samples." New, L. (n.d.) Salmonella and the raw diet. Mountain Dog Food website [viewed on 16Nov03]. Sato Y, Mori T, Koyama T, Nagase H (2000). Salmonella virchow infection in an infant transmitted by household dogs. Journal of Veterinary Medical Science, 62(7):767-9. Syufy, F (2003). Go! Natural Pet Foods Recall: Canadian company recalls all products manufactured in Texas. About.com October 26, 2003. Texas Agricultural Experimental Station, Office of the State Chemist (1998). Dog Food Recall. November 2, 1998. "Doane Products Company announced today a recall of dry dog food produced between July 1 and August 31, 1998, at its Temple, Texas plant. [...] Doane officials said a veterinary diagnostic laboratory has attributed the deaths of approximately 25 dogs to aflatoxins. Aflatoxins result from a naturally occurring mold which at high levels can cause liver damage. The mold may be more likely to occur in corn that has been subjected to extreme weather conditions." Theyse LF, van de Brom WE, van Sluijs FJ (1998). Small size of food particles and age as risk factors for gastric dilatation volvulus in great danes. Veterinary Record, 143(2):48-50. "Dogs fed a diet containing particles of food > 30 mm in size (kibble and/or dinner and/or home-prepared food with large pieces of meat) had a lower risk of GDV than dogs fed a diet containing only particles USDA - U.S. Dept. Of Agriculture, Food Safety and Inspection Service (1995). An outbreak of e. coli O157:H7 How could it happen? Food Safety and Inspection Service Flyer, July 1995. "Illness from the O157:H7 bacteria has been caused by foods including undercooked ground beef, roast beef, raw milk, improperly processed cider, contaminated water, mayonnaise, cantaloupes, vegetables grown in cow manure and salami (a dry sausage). Outbreaks have also started in cross-contamination at food service outlets--delicatessens, grocery carryouts and salad bars" White DG, Datta A, McDermott P, Friedman S, Qaiyumi S, Ayers S, English L, McDermott S, Wagner DD, Zhao S (2003). Antimicrobial susceptibility and genetic relatedness of Salmonella serovars isolated from animal-derived dog treats in the USA. Journal of Antimicrobial Chemotherapy, 52(5):860-3. "A total of 158 dog treats derived from pig ears and other animal parts were randomly collected nationwide and assayed for the presence of Salmonella. [...] Forty-one percent (65/158) of samples were positive for Salmonella. [...] CONCLUSIONS: The study indicates that animal-derived dog treats in the USA could be a potential source of animal and human infections with Salmonella, including multidrug-resistant Salmonella strains." Willis C (2001). Isolation of Salmonella species from imported dog chews. Veterinary Record, 149(14):426-7. Copyright 2003, Stacy Pober. All rights reserved. Contact the author. ________________________________________ The above article originally appeared on the VETMED discussion list in November 2003. VETMED is a moderated discussion of veterinary and animal health issues. To subscribe to VETMED, send email to: listserv@iupui.edu. In the body of the message, type: SUB VETMED Yourfirstname Yourlastname

Hello Gardev, I understand your frustrations with finding the materials you need at a price that makes it worth all the effort! I would recommend not using the limestone! Because of its chemistry, you would have an extremely high pH which would be unsuitable for most plantings unless you were willing to constantly check and amend the soil. I know of people who have used the aquarium gravel and it DOES work, but it can be expensive. I am not sure what kind of access you have to construction materials around you, but I have had success at stores such as Home Depot or Lowe's ( I am sure there are many more that carry it) with products such as concrete gravel. It takes screening as well, and you want to make sure to purchase the bags that are only gravel. but they are around $5 per 23KG (50lb) bag. I will include a link for you so you can get an idea of what material I am talking about. I have used it for citrus before and it works pretty well for the price you pay! Link to gravel I hope that this helps you! Justin

Dr. Andress has addressed the issue in the past with the clarification I discussed above - the issue of increased boil-over/siphoning that might result in weaker seals when liquid is added to raw chicken before processing. Think about it - Given that raw chicken when processed without added liquid normally fills the jar at least 1/2 full with broth and sometimes more, if one fills the jar with broth leaving only a "generous 1" head space" before processing where is that extra liquid going to go? It is basically 2 different cooking processes - boiling vs. roasting. Granted when chicken is boiled in broth it will not produce as much additional broth from the meat as when it is roasted with no broth but it will still increase the amount of liquid somewhat. Still it isn't considered a safety issue - either end result is considered safe - just an appearance, flavor issue with possible associated problems with the added broth you need to be aware of. Hope that clarifies. Dave