The Toyota and Honda are the only ones most people need to look at. Toyota offers 4WD models that double as a light-duty SUV. They also have some way-cool Limited luxury vans that could easily pass for a Lexus. Loaded with useful toys - power folding 3rd-row seats, rear-view camera, driver seat and mirror settings memory, remote power open-and-closing rear and side doors, navigation system, 12v and 120v outlets, HID/xenon headlamps, Bluetooth wireless phone connections with nav integration, roll-up sunshades for all the side windows, laser-guided cruise control, power fold-in mirrors with puddle, side marker, and backup lights, parking assist, loads more. The Honda Odyssey Touring has most of this except for the AWD availibility, and has a more powerful engine and some underfloor storage. The DaimlerChrysler vans (Dodge, Chrysler) have nifty 2nd-row seats that fold into recesses to fold flat into the floor; when the 2nd row seats are in place, a huge underfloor cargo hold is available. But the rest of the van is a generation behind the Toyota and Honda minivans, such as available safety equipment, ergonomics, and a missing gear in the transmission. General Motors are selling four nearly-identical minivans through different brands (Saturn Relay, Chevrolet Uplander, Pontiac Montana, Buick Terraza). The four put together are being outsold by the Toyota alone though. Not hard to see why; this is an old 1997 design updated last year with a longer hood and a revised dashboard. The behind the 3rd row cargo space is tiny in these, because it lacks the deep storage well all the other manufacturers use now. So they actually had to build the floor *up* so the 3rd-row seatback could fold forward (not tumble back) and line up with the rearmost floor section. The whole thing is nearly a foot above the floor in the front half of the van, where the 2nd row seats begin. Likewise, the Ford Freestar and Mercury Monterey are revamps of the previous Ford Windstar, also at least Ford ponied up for a new floorpan with a proper fold-rearward-into-the-well 3rd-row seat. Price (after steep rebates and incentives) drive most sales of these. The Nissan Quest is worth a look for its stylish, comfortable interior, which offers some elegant color choices and a neat aircraft-style 5-skylight and overhead console package that looks like it was pulled from a Learjet. The dash is a bit funky for some tastes (glovebox where the speedometer usually is), the 3rd row must be raised or dropped in one piece, and its reliability has been iffy. The 2nd row seats fold almost flat into the floor Kia has a redesigned Sedona van that is low-priced, and unlike the previous one, is reasonably conpetitive with the Honda and Toyota. Rich people can now buy a Mercedes minivan, the R-Class which is the only one with an available V8 (6 cylinder is standard). AWD is optional, RWD standard. Rear side doors open like a sedan's rather than being sliders, but they are just as wide as sliding doors, making them more difficult to open in parking lots than SUV or wagon rear doors would be. Configured alot like 10 year old Mazda MPVs. Competes with the Odyssey Touring and Sienna Limited, as well as the Chrysler Pacifica. The Mazda MPV is a standout for being smaller and shorter than most other vans. An again design, it still manages good design, a hint of sportiness, and lots of interior space in a small package. As for buying "American brands", be careful concerning recent changes in the automotive market. Dodge and Chrysler are now German-owned (DaimlerChrysler AG), and their vans are built in Canada, with 75% North American parts. Toyota is a Japanese-headquartered company, but they designed the Sienna in California, and build it in two U.S. plants with 91% North American parts. So despite the more foreign-sounding name, the Toyota is more an "American" vehicle than the Dodge is.

Probably because our cost of living is the highest in Canada. Our provincial income tax is 37% our federal tax is 18%. I seem to recall in 82 our flat rate was $10.50 per hour and the labour rate was $32.00, maybe $30.00 ? Barry and myself were trimmers, you know what they are, and were offered a garranty of 6 hours a day flat rate. We both refused because you have to stay there 8 hour to collect. If there is nothing in my stall i go home even if it's 2 in the afternoon. We both threatened to quit one afternoon and go to work for Ford. We got our flat rate up to $12.75. That is $25,500.00 in a 200 work day year. I remember those Master Technician exams. Every tech participated in those. I have a drawer full from Ford,G.M. Chrysler, and Toyota. No offence but they didn't mean much. They didn't increase your wages. Our average labour rate now is between $85.00 to $105.00 per hour. If you go to a Specialest dealer like B.M.W. , or Jaguar it is about $150.00 to $200.00 per hour. Now that is the place to work. I'ts usually straight time and if your good and don't mine night mares you write your own ticket. I remember working For Canadian Tire in the 70s making $15,000 - $20,000 a year. We were payed half of the labour rate plus commision on parts. It was good. Just a follow up on customers in our stalls. That was an absolte NO,NO. The insurance company took a very dim view of that. If my customer was waiting for his car i could go and bring him to his car if i had questions. I had to escort him to and from his car. Now that you mention it. I remember working for Dominion Motors ( ford ). The service shop was on the second floor. A horrible place to work. Hot as hell and you froze in the winter. Everything was done on the floor. No lifts. That was 1975. They payed $8.50 an hour just to get someone to work for them. They were the highest paying dealer in the city. Seems no one wants to pay any more to keep their guys. My nephew started out last month on the grease rack for Ford. They are only paying him $12.00 per hour straight time. He wants to go into diesle mechanics. They only pay $15.00 per hour for first year appentice. No wonder no one wants to work anymore. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a smart mouth. You don't servive up here very long at $15.00 per hour with our cost of living. Here is an example. An A.C. tech on a commercial job or roof top makes $47.17 per hour. An industrial A.C. tech. on a 20 ton chiller makes $52.73 per hour. If you bring your home computer into a shop for servicing or virus removal it's $90.00 per hour. If you bring in a brake rotor for turning it's $30.00 each. $22.00 for a new one. Spin balance a tire is $18.00 each plus weights. In 1992 i was being payed $27.00 per hour installing gas pipe in new homes and i was the low man on the pole. Just a little F.Y.I. on this side of the border. Have a good one.

FWIW, I avoid aftermarket O2 sensors as much as possible. There is a clear difference in the O.E. part when it comes to accuracy and long term performance. That being said, when I see a part replaced and a code reset, my routine is to test the vehicle again from the beginning as if it has never been serviced the first time. This allows me to not assume that the part is either OK, nor defective. In otherwords, I test as if it's a completely different vehicle, and that routine allows me to solve problems that other techs/shops get stuck on. Cowboy is correct that even a lot of techs get stuck in the pull a code, change a part trap. The funny thing is, they get that way because it's what the public wants. While I have a diagnostic fee to just get started, they may attempt to give into public price pressure and try and do the diagnostics for a vary small fee, or even FREE. Well this is just like anything else, you get what you pay for, sometimes even less. Overall the worst thing that happens is after the owner spends a ton of money whether by their own hand, or with someone elses help and they have been unsuccessful with a repair, then they show up at a shop like mine crying how they already spent all that money and the car is still broke, almost as if it's my fault and now I'm supposed to make it right without earning a living doing so. Quite frankly when it happens too many times I am not afraid to send the customer permanently out the door. The most recent was a person that owns an Infinity Q45. They fooled around several times over the last few years, and each time I bailed them out. This last time they came to me first, I did the diagnostics only to see them take the repair to another shop for $5.00 less than I was going to charge! Heck they spent that $5.00 in gas just getting to that other shop and back home. Well they are free to make that choice, and now they can live with it, because between me, and the dealer, no-one else has full software support for their car, and it will never come back in here. My Choice......

I didn't read all the way through this thread. But I love Ford and Chevy trucks. Will never buy a Dodge product again. I currently have a Toyota Sequoia (essentially the same thing as a Tundra) and I adore it. My DH has a 96 Tacoma that he's had since brand-new, and it is an amazing little truck. That said, it's little. I'd personally never want a little truck. I know that's funny, being a female, but I *love* trucks. Lol. I would buy a F350 in a heartbeat if I could justify it, having to haul four kids around. My uncles, all farmers, always had Ford or Chevy trucks. I had a Chrysler T&C Van (Dodge product) and as a result, will never buy a Dodge product again. Worse purchase of my life. I know I said that already, but I can't say it enough. Get what you love. Perhaps look at used vehicles, cause I think that's where the real deals are. My DH knew I wanted a Sequoia with all my heart, and when I found one used at Carmax, he gave his blessing. I've had it now for over 2 years, it's a 2003, and no problems except for one, which the extra warranty I bought covered.