You can't go wrong with a Camry and pretty much any Toyota dealer has plenty of low mileage used lease returns and demos which will be priced less than a new one.I have a 03 Matrix XR that I've had for 3.5 years and it's been rock solid reliable(probably a bit too small for your needs),but I may very well sell it to buy the 2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser coming out next spring.IMO Hondas are fine cars(if a bit bland),but Toyotas represent the best value for the money in a new or used car.

06 sanata better handling more safety, more power, longer warranty. check it out in july road and track

A couple of people at work have Hyundai Sonatas and they are very nice with a long warranty,but a bit smaller than the Camry and are Korean made, not Japanese.The quality of Hyundais have come a long way though,but if you keep your cars 15 years I'd go with a Toyota or Honda as they have been proven time and time again to hold up in the long run.My bias is towards Toyota ,but overall the bias on this board seems to be for American cars over foreign cars.Not that there's anything wrong with that,but that's just the way it is.

Look at autoconsumerguide.com for car reviews and pricing.
Ask you auto insurance broker about cars you are interested in to learn cost and loan value on a specific model.

At least give the American brands a try.

Imagine the CEOs at a conference.

"We are sick and tired of playing second fiddle to the Japanese", "this must stop !!"..."The only way to do this is to offer the public at least an equal product, if not superior."

"The old way of lying(advertising) and deception no longer work.." "Appealing to patriotism never did work that well.."

This I hopefully imagine, it is either this or we learn to speak Japanese..

Our Honda was an '88 and they are good, awfully good, despite their lousy and greedy dealers.
We now have a '97 - so time will tell...

the 05 sanata was smaller than the camry, but the new 06 is larger than the camry, and american built now.

I love my 2005 Honda Accord. I like the sporty look of the Accord over the Camry. It has 2200 miles and the ride is smooth. It is not very well insulated though as you can HEAR the outside noise. I have a 4 cylinder and it has plenty of power to go up the mountains. If you are looking for reliability, you can't go wrong with Honda or Toyota. A 100K bumper to bumper warranty would not tempt me to buy another American car.

so what are you saying lexie76, you import your cars? i dont understand, since hondas and toyotas for the most part are american built.

Toyotas use lots of DELPHI parts too. I bet if you look real close under the hood of an older Camry, you'll find a GM logo on something. (Delphi was spun off from GM and no longer uses the GM logo on the parts they make).

I was referring to sorry as* GM cars.

i understand, g.m. cars. do they still make american cars? i was looking at the daewoo aveo, and the toyota vibe, the holden gto, the vauxhal solstice. maybe g.m. would sell more cars if they advertised how many of their cars were imports. i agree lexie76 the honda accord is one nice looking car, looks like hyundai copied it for their new sonata. i like honda they come from my home state of ohio, very close to where i used to live. but alas my sister and bro. in law work for hyundai, so i got to give them the good word.

Had an Accord coupe for years. Loved that car. Moved up to a Camry and it has been fantastic. Toyota just makes great cars, as does Honda and Lexus (part of Toyota, I know, I know.) NEVER any problems. Period. Routine maintenance only. That's what you get when you buy these two brands.

We bought the Camry from the Toyota dealer as a Toyota Certified Used Car - with about 25K miles on it. Many of these are lease or rental returns and going this way (if Certified by Toyota) saves you quite a bit of $$ plus you get a warranty. The main reason for switching away from Honda was size. I wanted something a little larger and the Accords are just too small (sigh), but great cars. If you have kids, I would absolutely look at the Camrys.

I do not think there is any magic about where the various parts come from or where the assembly plant is any more, but there is still--in my experience--a BIG difference between quality control and care about the customer between some of the American labels (GM comes to mind here and deserves every last bit of the financial trouble they are in - that's what happens when you put the unions, rather than the customers, before all else and when you fire Quality Control staff for being too vigilant in not allowing certain cars off the line) and the Japanese companies, which are really in it for the long haul and really do seem to care about the quality of their product and in taking care of the customer. You probably experienced this with the Honda folks.

Our experiences with Japanese cars--which we switched to in the 1970's after being VW loyalists for years -- have just been a joy to own and drive. That's why the Accord and Camry remain among the hottest selling and most reliable in the US today.

Loved the Camry so much, drove it for 4 years then gave it to hubby and bought a Certified used Avalon from same Toyota dealer. Loved the Avalon so much that I drove it for 5 years, gave it to hubby and just bought a new Lexus ES330 with a nav system. Wow, what a car. Wanted to also look at the Mercedes C class and some of the Beamers, but both are having some serious reliability problems. How awful, but true. So I will probably die a Japanese car loyalist.

Reliability is our #1 criteria over all others, so we always take a look at consumer reports. When buying used, be sure to check out their "Used Cars to Avoid" section. You will be amazed at how many GM cars are on that list! They also have a breakdown of recommended used cars by year and model and price range. Some folks on this site slam CR because they don't like their sampling methodology or b/c so many of the American brands score so poorly. But hey, it is an imperfect world. The one time we made the mistake of not checking with CR first, we paid dearly (76 Audi Fox - what a dog-spent the entire time in the shop until we ran out of $$ and traded it in for something else.) The latest auto buying guide came out in the April 05 issue, so you may want to order it. Prepare for a big surprise when you see the ratings for Toyota and Honda compared to most others. The difference is dramatic.

Don't let anyone talk you in to "buying American" as if it is your patriotic duty. Buy what you want and if it is Japanese, great--it just puts more competitive pressure on the US labels, though they seem to be painfully slow in getting the message.

L

Thank you all. We are sold on the japanese cars for reasons you mention, Lynne... have had wonderful experience with our two Hondas and aren't at all swayed by the "buy american" rhetoric. GM is doing well in China, by the way. Now we just have to decide between the various Toyota/Honda/Acura models. With Safety #1, (followed closely by value, & mileage), we're looking at the various safety testing results which rate most of them fairly well, but some higher than others. We hope to narrow things down. Have already ruled out the prius and all vans.

If safety will be a prime consideration, go beyond the U.S. government tests (which, while useful, can be "cooked" a bit by people who optimize their response to the test) and check the ratings of the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety. Their numbers are based on actual claims experience (property damage and injuries/fatalities). While that may not be very useful in evaluating the strength of a brand-new model, it can show you whether the manufacturer typically does a good job of designing a vehicle that protects its occupants -- a trait which likely extends to the new model, as well.

**i understand, g.m. cars. do they still make american cars? **

GM and Ford still come to mind of most ppl (see posts after mine) when one say 'American cars'. Toyota and Honda are Japanese companies regardless of where the products are made. All my Ann Taylor clothes are made in third world countries. I do not consider AT to be Indian because the clothes are made there.

I heard on NPR this morning that Toyota ranks # 1 among Germans. BMW ranked #3 and Benz ranked # 1.

I heard on NPR this morning that Toyota ranks # 1 among Germans. BMW ranked #3 and Benz ranked # 1.

Lexie, what were they ranking?

I love my '04 Prius. I believe that it has been crash tested. I just googled it and came up with lots of sites with crash data.

My car before that was a '88 Acura Legend. I finally got rid of it when it had 185,000 miles on it and was starting to develop lots of body rust from living for 4 years on the ocean and starting to use a considerable amount of oil. It was a great car for the 16 years I had it.
Happy car shopping!

Why are Japanese cars so much safer?Is it something with the plastic?

I heard that Japanese cars go faster, use less gas, produce less pollution, and make your neighbors think more highly of you, too.

My neighbors do not think more highly of you if you drive a Japanese vehical.If you put a USA flag or one of those yellow magnetic ribbons on it.They will think even less of you.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000100&sid=au8jByQsqjUg

Toyota Tops Germany Car Satisfaction Survey, J.D. Power Says

June 29 (Bloomberg) -- Toyota Motor Corp., Japan's largest automaker, ranked highest for the fourth-straight year in a survey of German car-owner satisfaction, beating all the domestic brands.

Toyota earned 856 of 1,000 points in the survey by J.D. Power & Associates' Munich office. Mazda Motor Corp., Japan's fourth- largest automaker, was second with 839 points; followed by Bayerische Motoren Werke AG, the world's largest luxury carmaker, with 837 points, said J.D. Power in a faxed statement today.

DaimlerChrysler AG's Mercedes-Benz brand, which has been hurt by quality issues, finished 11th. The survey asked owners of two- year-old automobiles to rate them in categories including quality, reliability and appeal. Automakers that score well use the results to tout their vehicles in advertisements.

``While the performance of Toyota continues to impress, it is encouraging to see improvements made by top-performing brands,'' said Martin Volk, J.D. Power European research manager, in the release.

BMW was the most improved brand due to ``strong'' gains in service satisfaction and ownership costs, J.D. Power said. The average score in the study was 800 points, an increase of 14 from last year.

Toyota also claimed the top spot in five of the seven model categories, J.D. Power said. BMW and Mercedes-Benz captured the remaining top two spots.

Volkswagen AG's Audi luxury-car division ranked eighth with 811 points. The Volkswagen brand finished 20th of 27 brands. Daewoo finished 27th.

Earlier this year, Mercedes announced it was recalling 1.3 million vehicles, its largest recall ever, to correct brake and electrical defects. Since then it has lost its ranking as the world's largest luxury carmaker to BMW, and in May Audi passed Mercedes in European sales.

J.D. Power, based in Westlake Village, California, conducted the survey with the German motoring magazine Mot.

Top ranking brands:

1. Toyota

2. Mazda

3. BMW

4. Volvo

5. Honda

6. Mitsubishi.

Top ranking vehicles by model category:

Toyota Yaris Verso, small car

Toyota Corolla, lower-medium car

Toyota Avensis, upper medium car

BMW 5-Series, executive luxury car

Mercedes-Benz CLK, sports car

Toyota Corolla Verso, multi-purpose vehicle

Toyota RAV4, sport-utility vehicle.
To contact the reporter on this story:
Chad Thomas in Berlin at cthomas16@bloomberg.net.
Last Updated: June 29, 2005 10:02 EDT

There are more.

I would sure hope that GM reign in certain areas as long as they have been in business. I would not waste my effort in reading what JD Power have to say. I am biased remember after the sh*t I went through. I would consider buying a Hyundai before I go back to GM.

You are aware of the fact that the source of the data you posted above about the German car satisfaction survey IS JD Power, aren't you?

Either you aren't, or you believe what JD Power has to say when it agrees with what you believe and don't believe them when it doesn't.

Either way, your credibility on this forum is in question.

..it's rather ignorant to post a news report using data from JD Power to make your case..

..and then in your next post, write that "I would not waste my effort in reading what JD Power have to say."

But at least you admit that you're biased, although I don't think such an oversight was the result of bias.

We bought a used Toyota Avalon w/ 36K miles for about 1/2 the sticker price. It's been very good to us so far and has 115K miles. Lots of room, good gas mileage, leather seats, etc. Brothers 96 (which I bought also) has 225K miles, so they can go a long time (as can many American cars) if you take good care of them. Also have a 90 Toyota Celica and 90 Nissan Maxima, both of which have been good to me, with only wear and tear maintenance.

ToYODA I likes, me think.

I've long believed that most cars will last a long time if you take care of them.

Next time you see a car blowing blue smoke, consider how it got that way.

***Either you aren't, or you believe what JD Power has to say when it agrees with what you believe and don't believe them when it doesn't.

Either way, your credibility on this forum is in question. ***

I would not waste my effort reading what JD Power have to say about GM. I do read it when I see that it is in the pit though :) --just to get the giggles. I do not think that the others need to read my posts to determine what to buy as there are many resources to help them make an informed choice.

I also agree that if you take care of things they will last but if a product is faulty, no matter how well you take care of it, it will break down prematurely.

I'm glad we agree on the value of taking care of things, but as far as the validity of what JD Power says about GM, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I've owned Cadillacs for years now and I have to say I
love them. The one I have now is a 2000 Deville and it has
123,000 miles. It has been one of the best cars i've ever
owned. It even get pretty good gas milage. 19.5 in town and 26.5 on the road.
That said, I was ready to buy a new car and was on my way to
the Cadillac dealership to see what they had to offer. I had
thought i'd get a new one that day, if they had what I wanted.
We passed the Toyota dealership on the way and I pulled in
to see what the new Prius looked like. I don't know
what happened but the next thing I knew, I had ordered a new
Avalon Limited with all the bells and whistles.
It hasn't arrived yet.
I hope I haven't made a mistake.

I don't know what happened but the next thing I knew, I had ordered a new Avalon Limited with all the bells and whistles. It hasn't arrived yet. I hope I haven't made a mistake.

I can definitively say that you will regret buying an Avalon. You'll lament all those years you spent driving GM products when you could've been driving Toyota quality. At least you didn't buy a Lexus...then you'd really be kicking yourself for all those years down the drain.

This was in one of my area papers today.It was among many cars for sale and struck me as humorous thought I might share it.Seems the imports are not all they claim to be.

AUTOMOBILES 2003 TOYOTA MATRIX LEMON smells of antifreeze, leaky sunroof, engine light came on, wheel bearing & hubs replaced, out of alignment, etc. This one is loaded with problems. $13,900 Call number removed

he should have bought a pontiac vibe! hahahahaha

This makes no sense, username.
The man was happy with his Cadillacs, so why trade down to a lesser vehicle ?? If he was short on money, why not a Buick Roadmaster or Super; or an Oldsmobile 98 ??
GM, whatever happened ??

As far as that cheap Toyota Matrix goes(whatever that is), one should expect trouble when an otherwise decent car is loaded down with junk..

Interesting thread.

FWIW, there are almost no bad cars on the market under any nameplate these days. Every car will need to be maintained, and the costs to do so will be all over the board. Some cheap cars are expensive to maintain, some cars can be maintained relatively cheaply at risk of certaint failures, and there are expensive cars that cost more to maintain than the total expense of the cheap cars. VBG, it all comes down to what someone can afford, and what they expect from a car.

Lexie said" I would not waste my effort reading what JD Power have to say about GM. I do read it when I see that it is in the pit though :) --just to get the giggles."

Gotta love honesty, VBG..

Lexie said...
"I do not think that the others need to read my posts to determine what to buy as there are many resources to help them make an informed choice."

And she is exactly right. People shouldn't buy a car based on what other people think. They should buy a car based on their needs, what they can afford, the reputation of the dealership and it's service department, plus the aftermarket serviceability of the product. If the only place that can service the car completely is the dealership, and you don't like to use a dealership for service needs, then you shouldn't buy certain cars at any price! If the dealer service department fits your needs and expectations, then you have many more options. A single case in point is the hybrid situation. There are lots of special tools and equipment that a shop needs to have to service these correctly. Plus additional schooling for the technicians is required. It's very difficult for most shops to justify the expense of getting ready for these cars when they are such a small portion of the market. (I've never had one in the shop for even the most basic services, and don't think any of my customers have purchased one) So in all honesty, I'm not prepared to deal with one, and have no immeadiate plans to get ready, which means I'm not an option to provide service for anyone that buys one. The same goes for every other independent shop within fifteen to twenty miles of me AFAIK.

Lexie said....
"I also agree that if you take care of things they will last but if a product is faulty, no matter how well you take care of it, it will break down prematurely."

This is one part that I totally disagree with. My daughters 98 Cavalier, that we handed down to my nephew now has 145,000 miles and is going strong. Sure it needs a few repairs, the drivers window is coming off the track, and it's due for a cooling system service. He has scheduled both within the next two weeks, and he is learning to not let things like this go and accumulate into so many problems at one that it becomes astronomical to fix. That 98 Cavalier, not rated by anyone to be a good car will easily see him another 100,000 miles from this point, and maybe even further, and never cost him as much as he would spend on another car.

Now, FWIW, the Toyota Rav4 we bought our daughter has been everything I've expected. It's easy to see why they almost never put purchase incentives on this car, it simply dosn't need any help to make it a good buy.

****Lexie said....
"I also agree that if you take care of things they will last but if a product is faulty, no matter how well you take care of it, it will break down prematurely."

This is one part that I totally disagree with. My daughters 98 Cavalier, that we handed down to my nephew now has 145,000 miles and is going strong. *****

You did not mention that your daughter abused it or that the car was faulty. Therefore, with regular maintenance, a well made car should not experience any major problems.

Out of so many good cars, there are a few bad ones and I owned a bad one...

I owned a 2001 Cavalier. I got it brand new w/ 3 miles and took good care of it and took it in for its scheduled maintenance. At 17,000 miles it needed a completely new transmission, at 23,000 miles, the radiator within the radiator (don't know the correct term) cracked and coolant got inside of the transmission and it was almost totaled. I drove an average of 130 miles a week. The car had 26,000 miles on it when I sold it three months ago. Did I abuse it or was it a faulty car? The guy at the dealership told me to get rid of it and not bother to get the tranny fixed if it was totaled. He said not worth it. GM paid for most of the repairs under warranty and some out of warranty work due to the low mileage (no sign of abuse or neglect on my part) but I still ended up responsible for over a grand on repairs. So what should I do differently to prevent all this from happening again my new Honda Accord? Not drive it and garage it? A good car should not break down this early on. I asked the guy that fixed the Cavalier and he said that I could not have caused those damages as there were no signs of abuse or neglect on the car. He told me he's never seen anyone that came in to the shop as often - 7 times in less than 2 years and was without my car for 30 days total since I took ownership. I decided to get rid of it when the liasion for GM/BBB told me that they cannot continue to fix the car for the life of the car. I said "Like I took the pleasure in taking my car in for repair on a weekly basis". She said "It's a man made car, things like this will happen and GM went far and beyond to help you".

What does VBG mean?

VBG is "Very Big Grin". In other words I was laughing with you.

Lexie said"

I owned a 2001 Cavalier. I got it brand new w/ 3 miles and took good care of it and took it in for its scheduled maintenance. At 17,000 miles it needed a completely new transmission, at 23,000 miles, the radiator within the radiator (don't know the correct term) cracked and coolant got inside of the transmission and it was almost totaled."

Yes I recall the posts you made about this car. No you didn't cause these problems, and then again your perspective on them is different than mine, and for good reason. Nobody has ever needed a "whole new transmission", thats a perception to think that they do. Now it does happen that it may be a good choice to install a service replacement depending on the failure, but many of the components in the tranny would still be useable, and would in fact be reused when that transmission is repaired, and then offered as a service replacement to the next person.

"I drove an average of 130 miles a week. The car had 26,000 miles on it when I sold it three months ago. Did I abuse it or was it a faulty car?"

It was a car that had some faulty parts, totally repairable IMO.

"The guy at the dealership told me to get rid of it and not bother to get the tranny fixed if it was totaled. He said not worth it.

What guy? A salesman? A service writer? Reguardless, both were wrong IMO. You sold this car, or traded it in or whatever. What do you think it's doing right now? Probably taking someone wherever they need to go.

"GM paid for most of the repairs under warranty and some out of warranty work due to the low mileage (no sign of abuse or neglect on my part) but I still ended up responsible for over a grand on repairs."

The initial transmision repair was one thing. Losing the tranny cooler, and having transmission issues because of that had nothing at all to do with the first tranny repair. I've repaired a number of transmissions from tranny cooler failures, none of them have ever been "totalled". In fact they were some of the easiest tranny repairs I've ever done since all I had to do was replace the seals and clutches, inspect the thrust bearings, and replace them as needed. Flush or replace the convertors depending on whether they were a lock-up design or not, and inspect rebuild/repair the front pump.

BTW, as far as abusing her Cavalier, what do you think happened? She's a "motor heads" daughter, at least she learned to be carefull, and paid attention to maintainence needs. It was only after she gew up a little and slowed down that we got her the Rav4. Now that little car is in the hands of a 17yr/old boy and the first thing he did was put redneck NASCAR stickers on it.... VVBG

I've had the Avalon for a week now and while I like to
drive it and feel like it is a good choice, i've discovered
that i've finally succeeded in buying a car that is smarter
than I am.

The instructions seem simple enough, but just yesterday
I asked it to take me home and some woman that obviously
has stowed away in my car somewhere asked if I was sure I
wanted to go home. She must have been enjoying the ride
and my car likes her better than me because it took me
everywhere but home.

I think my new car had visions of being in an air-
conditioned garage with a Lexus as a
garage mate, living somewhere on a beach. Instead it has
ended up in the wilds of north georgia with a slightly
crazy old woman and a Honda to share it's space.
It refuses to let me program it to open my garage.
I can get in the gate, so i'm making progress.;-)

***What guy? A salesman? A service writer? Reguardless, both were wrong IMO. You sold this car, or traded it in or whatever. What do you think it's doing right now? Probably taking someone wherever they need to go.**

The service advisor - he told he's never seen it (radiator cracked contaminating tranny) happened in the 10 year he has been with the dealership.

You appear to know a lot about cars so it is easy for you to say that this and that could have been done. Time and money were the reasons I did not send the POS to different places to get a diagnosis (I was advised not to drive it home for the holiday weekend as it could have done futher damage). It gets really old when you have to bring it in for one problem and the next week you have to bring it back for another problem. Could it be that the place I was taking it in to was trying to take advantage of a gullible young woman (look like I'm in my earlier 20's but I am OLD). I took it for one thing and I sworn I had to return the next week for another thing. This happened 3x altogether in two GM dealerships. I hope that my loss is someone else's gain....it could go as many as 150K but just not my luck to own it.

Toyota dealerships take advantage of people, too, you know. My sister and brother-in-law had a Sienna and were told that it would need an $800 "maintenance service" after just 40,000 miles. They had a few other recurring problems with it, and shortly thereafter traded it for a used Lincoln Navigator, which has been basically trouble-free for the 60,000 miles they've owned it (total mileage on that vehicle is now 100,000).

They're glad to be deprived of "Toyota quality." The Navigator's been their favorite vehicle ever.

All dealerships take advantage of you no matter what brand.Labor rates and robbing people of there trade ins.Socking it to them for the new or newer model they buy.Then slapping there trade in on the lot with a inflated price hoping some idiot will pay it.But if they wont there still getting took on the discount price that is still more then its worth and probably atleast 25% more then they gave the poor sap that traded it in.They give the excuse of cost of reconditioning.But thats just a joke.Then they sell it and when it falls apart on the new owner shump that got took they make a fortune on labor rates.Same story nation wide.

I would change the oil very often in an Avalon -- no more than every 3,000, and some of the people with the sludge problems say even that may not be enough. High oil consumption and engine sludge are reported by too many people in this model to simply brush it off.

Here is a link that might be useful: Car Survey Toyota Avalon Comments

"The service advisor - he told he's never seen it (radiator cracked contaminating tranny) happened in the 10 year he has been with the dealership"

A few things about his comment. One it's quite possible he's never seen that for a couple of reasons. One is this happens more often with older vehicles than new ones, and typically older cars tend to frequent the aftermarket shops (independents). Secondly, while ten years of experience in most fields is enough to have seen just about everything, thats not the case with auto repair. I've been fixing cars for thirty years, and I see something new all the time.

As far as the multiple visits, I would of had to see what was happening in order to give a fair opinion. One possibility that always comes to mind first is the fact that "flat rate" (thats the pay plan most dealer techs work under) rewards the techs for getting the car in, making (hopefully) correct snap decisions, doing the repair and getting the car out. Jobs that have an uncommon failure often result in the car having to come back because of poor or improper diagnostics. The funny thing is, if a tech takes to much time diagnosing the cars he works on, he wont be as productive as the dealer wants him to be and he ends up looking for another job. A certain degree of failure is inevitable under those situations, and it's always the techs fault. NOT a VBG Thats one of the reasons I quit working at dealerships almost twenty years ago, and went aftermarket. Now I own my shop, and nothing like that occurs here, I'll guarantee it. VBG.

BTW The Toyota sludging problem has several causes. Extended oil change intervals being one of the biggest, but it turns out now that a lot more research is being done and they have found that few oil products on the market had the correct additive packages to permit the oils to even attempt to achieve the extended drain intervals people were trying to use. Some are blaming the oil companies for issuing approval ratings for oils that really didn't meet the manufactuers specs. Oh well, once again I'll say, my daughters Rav4 will never sludge up. Between doing 3mo/3000 mile services, and using top dollar conventional oil from IMO the most trusted auto parts corporation NAPA, I've always been using the correct oil for all of my customers vehicles. Yes it cost more, and I have to charge more for the service when I do it for my customers, but NONE of them are having gelling issues. Thats why they come here when it is cheaper somewhere else.

NAPA oil is made by Valvoline.

I think just about any oil that says "API SM" or "GF-4" on it will do the job.

That's almost all of them, by the way.

Yes, that's what the API standards are there for. Also, NAPA is fine, and may be the most trusted, but there are many good sources of quality auto parts. I've used parts from many different suppliers with no problems.

If Toyota calls for a 7,500 - 10,000 oil change interval, and owners do that, then you can't say they didn't change the oil often enough. Plus, these aren't by and large 100,000 mile engines -- many of them have less than 50,000 miles. If it's the oil or the owners' maintenance habits that are bad, how come engines from all the car companies aren't sludged up at 50,000 miles? Surely Toyota owners aren't as a group any more neglectful of their cars than owners of other makes.

A few years back it became clear that Toyota had been designing the emission control systems on many vehicles in such a way that owners would not get a "Check Engine" light for certain malfunctions. This affected 2.2 million vehicles, and they basically got a pass on it, having to pay only a $500,000 settlement and retrofit some diesel buses with emission controls to supposedly compensate for the extra emissions its cars were putting out. The affected vehicles were never recalled. Hopefully they'll do a better job of correcting this issue than they did that one.

Here is a link that might be useful: DOJ Settles Lawsuit Against Toyota

Honda had the same problem with emissions systems. Apparently the EPA forced them to offer an extended warranty on 96-97 Accords (other models may be included, I don't know the details) until 150,000 miles due to this.

on Honda Accords covers emissions components.

John_G,

Where are you at? I would rather pay more for good service any day. You get what you paid for. :) I got the 7/75K EW so this time if the Honda breaks down, I am going for a second opinion if it is serious.