Yeah, definitely an old discussion. I think it pretty much got torn to shreds by the rather eloquent opposition. But the real question is: how much markup is acceptable, and when should one attempt to bargain with one's mechanic for a slightly lower price when the parts are known to be more than 100% marked up? Of course, the immediate answer to the bargaining question (as discussed above) is to simply find another mechanic who will charge a total amount which is acceptable. However, what if I have come to appreciate a particular mechanic / business to a point where I want to do business with said mech/business as opposed to supporting their competitors? In other words - let's say I am quoted $300 for parts plus $145 for labor (about 1.5 hrs) for a repair. I do the research, and find that a typical supplier will charge $100 for the parts. If I pay the quoted price, the business gets $445 for the ---- In defense of the repair industry: I am a skilled PC (computer) technician, and have worked as such before - both employed and freelance. I, too, had to deal with the issue of mark-up. Doing freelance work, I felt bad about marking-up goods that I did nothing but diagnose the need for and order. As such, I did some research on what is fair in terms of mark-up. The conclusion I reached in the end was that 100% mark-up is typical and thus, fair. Ergo, I would judge that markup in excess of 110% is "gouging" unless some manner of extra effort was required to obtain the parts. However, for a business to be efficient, the employees don't have time to shop around. Therefore, they will most likely use their standard parts dealer, at whatever cost the dealer quotes (they don't care - the customer pays for it). So the only way to really know if mark-up is exceeding a fair amount is to contact the dealer yourself (perhaps under the guise of an employee of the shop you're a patron of ;) ). So, don't expect that your shop always gets parts at the lowest price themselves - they can get gouged as well. --- And to Dr. Farrell, I enjoyed your humorous anecdote about offering independent business to the mechanics. I know _I_ would much rather give my money directly to these people than to give the shop say, $65 an hour just to have the shop pay the mech $8 an hour - I've been on both sides of this situation before. On the other hand, don't get all high-and-mighty because you can put "Dr." in front of your name - even sodas can do that. Agreeably, I doubt pharmacists really work all that hard. However,lawyers DO do a lot of hard work, and are doctors as well - most of them just don't get such big heads about it that they have to _title_ themselves. Furthermore, intelligence isn't measured my how much schooling one has managed to progress through - the mere cost of schooling, for one, has seen to that. That being said, there are some of us who work in certain lower-paying fields because we are, for the time being, happier here. There is a big difference between enjoying one's work and simply enjoying one's paycheck. Which is one reason which we will always have plumbers, mechanics, et al. - I, for one, fully support doing one's own work - when such action is an option, of course - but we can't each do ALL the work which could be done by others. Sure, I can learn how to fix parts in my own vehicle, or I can pay somebody else to do it for me; but paying for it doesn't make me less intelligent. In fact, this do-it-yourself fallacy of logic quickly spirals out of control. Did you mine, refine, form, etc. your own glass, metals, and plastics to use as raw materials for your truck? Did you create each part yourself from these materials, then assemble them into a functioning vehicle, etc., etc.? In our all-too-short lives, we have to pick and choose our battles. For you, education and minor vehicle part replacement seem to be central to your enjoyment of life; but we all find value in different things, sirrah. By the way, what does a physician need a utility truck for? I can only assume it's for "squander[ing] away [your] earnings" as mentioned earlier in the case of the half-hearted mechanic. The enlightened find drinking more rewarding than trying to out-do their neighbors in a worldly possessions contest. (Hey, I can make uneducated assumptions and generalize too, can't I?) Knowledge does not grant education Education does not grant intelligence Intelligence does not grant wisdom

RE: Help in choosing a large SUV Posted by: beaglebuddy (My Page) on Mon, Mar 13, 06 at 21:59 Could an attorney please step in and explain this to johndeere ? If the person hit is injurded and is in the Hospital for a long period of time and has surgery and then needs Thearapy.Has to take medication for the rest of his life.Then his pain and suffering and lost wages and can not pay his bills.Who do you think pays?Just because your insurance pays $10.000 per victim medical and you have say a $600.000 Liabilty.Does not mean your off the hook.Just because that is all they will pay.Because chances are that will not cover it. If the victim dies.Your not going to get off cheaper.Because a funeral is cheaper then if they lived and had huge medical bills.Say the victim is 40 years old and made $50.000 per year.The family would recieve a minimum of $50.000 x until his kids are grown.Not counting pain and suffering. Insurance Co.Cover there rearend and will only pay so much.You pay the remainder and that very well could be the larger portion. Could a Dr. please step in and explain this to beaglbuddy?

Everything is so ugly. Everything is so boring. This is exactly what I was thinking after we spent a couple of hours walking around a big mall, only because it was freezing but I wanted to walk. It might not have pushed me over the edge as much as it did, had I not also been looking at thousands of cabinet knobs and faucets and hinges and every other damn thing you can put in a kitchen. I know you're talking about not being able to find specific things. I have that problem, too. The 1920s faucets that were still almost universal in utility sinks when I was a kid are now special order high priced items. But I also think things in general look repulsive. Crate & Barrel seems to have bet its entire product line on the 587th revival of the 1970s we've had to endure over the past two decades. In each object in the store, ugly fights with boring to see which will emerge as dominant. There is not one single dinner service that you could call elegant without laughing, and more than a few you could lose your lunch on as soon as you ate it. I know some here swear by PB but it is worse than ever, everything dull as death and clunky as an elephant's foot. Things that might've been somewhat interesting when they were novel ten years ago, like "vintage" faucets, have been overdone and dumbed down to idiocy. There never was a real vintage faucet that had those big knobs on top with sheep hook spouts, and all those pull downs look like something you'd be embarrassed to touch in polite company. I guess it's cheaper to shave all the fine edges off everything than to produce items with the slightest character or delicacy, whether they are traditional or modern. The sad part is no one even seems to notice. Consumers are eager to show they will be no trouble to their Chinese manufacturers.

RG- Sorry for spreading the "only time will tell" bug. Good comments regarding the VF pump. Having the ability to adjust to a precise flow and maintain that flow probably has some value for some customers and installers, but this is a niche market. For all the other applications, Ive always been an advocate of applying the right size pump/filter for the application and applying proper piping to the system for the flow desired with routine maintenance on the filter to avoid system inefficiency. The fact remains that VF will increase speed and power to overcome these system shortfalls and this will cost the homeowner money. At what point does the homeowner get a warning that the system needs maintenance. With a non-variable flow pump, the answer is system pressure. With a variable flow pump, when is the signal sent to the homeowner that something is wrong and how much money has this cost the homeowner due to a system that is not operating efficiently. If the answer is system pressure also, then what is the value of having a variable flow technology when a variable speed (VS or 2-speed) or even a 1 speed will do the same for the homeowner. Kelly- Although the goal of achieving 2 speed pricing with improved efficiency sounds good, the reality of variable speed technology cost will prevent this from happening. Rare earth permanent magnet motors coupled with variable frequency drives is an expensive combination. To cut costs, the rare earth magnets will have to go and then we are back to the good ole PSC technology which is what we have in 2 speed pumps today. There may be some cost opportunity on the drive side of the design, as the current drive is a Cadillac when a Yugo will do for these pool applications, unless the VF market takes off, which will require the Cadillac drive and require the higher cost as a result. My guess is this will remain a niche market. The reality is variable speed technology is expensive and from my HVAC experience, has always fallen short on value offered vs. price. On the other hand, there may be market for a de-featured multi-speed pump with a "yugo" variable speed drive and a high efficiency PSC motor that will fall at the same price point of todays 2 speed, with the advantage of having more than 2 speeds. I could see this being a very real product in the near future with recent technology advances in drives. But, todays VF and VS offerings cost too much and fall short on the value they offer over a 2 speed, in my opinion. Kinda related..I have not been able to find anything from Jandy on their variable speed product. Have you seen anything yet? Maybe their offering has the lower price point (less expensive drive) and better efficiency at higher rpm with the Jandy impeller. Just curious, because obviously Jandy is not spending much money on advertising or marketing for their variable speed product. Tres- Good idea on comparisons between VS/VF and 2-speed/1-speed. This type of testing would have to be done on the same pool system to take piping size and hydraulics out of the equation and look at true power consumption differences between the technologies. Then on top of that, you will find that each technology will have a sweet spot on efficiency. The 1 speeds and 2 speeds will perform better at higher flow applications, the variable speeds with permanent magnet motors will perform better at low flow applications. So the results would have to be reported at different daily duty cycles.example, daily power consumed at X hours of high flow and Y hours of low flow, high flow only applications, low flow only applications, etc. Maybe this is the data that RG is referring to..I hope so and will be waiting to see this comparison data also. I have not seen a significant increase in my electricity bill either with my two 2 speed pumps and two 1 speed pumps, but as you indicate, all other appliances and loads on those appliances mask the true energy consumed by just the pool itself. I have 3 AC units that are running a lot during these dog days of summer along with the pool pumps getting a lot more daily use this time of year (especially the 3HP slide pump), so it really becomes convoluted. During the winter, our electricy bills are very low, less than $40/month. This is because the two one speed pumps are winterized and the two 2-speeds only run a few hours a day at low speed. We have gas heat so the only electricity demand for HVAC is the small indoor fan motors. We really like our winter electricity bills! Subl1002- Right on.apples to oranges comparisons that are misleading. I think Pentair should do themselves a favor and take their energy calculator off their site or at least give an option for a 2 speed comparison. Also, think the energy companies should focus on proper plumbing and pipe size standards for the pool industry rather than focusing on the pump efficiency. The pump will only consume as much power at the system demands, so why not focus on ways to minimize the demand. Im really surprised what RG said related to oversizing pumps in California. I would have thought they would have been early adopters of properly sizing pumps, filters and piping before any one elseoh well.so much for logic. This is the problem with power companies and government officials.they dont always see the big picture and always go to the component suppliers and burden them with improved efficiency but at a higher price. Case in point, in 2006, all AC units had to have 13 SEER minimum efficiency level. The HVAC industry lobbied hard for 12 SEER (which is slightly lower efficiency but at a much better cost) but our government with heavy California CEC influence passed the higher effiency 13 SEER requirement. Well, guess what.now consumers are buying a lot more window units due to cost of the 13 SEER equipment which is now burdening the power companies with higher demand because these window units are terribly inefficient. We showed this trend data to CEC officials recently and they said "Oh my.this is not what we intended at all".yep and thats what happens when you dont balance cost vs value and lose sight of the big picture. In the case of pool pumps, if the CEC ever mandates the Pentair pumps then the power companies will see a higher power demand as a result because these pumps are so inefficient at higher speeds. Hopefully the power companies realize this and are working with the CEC to mold their policies. Colt 357- YeahI thought the same thing.180K units sold per year..thats a lot. I am very surpised that your price point was lowered considering copper, steel and aluminum commodities have increased by 50% just in the last year. This is having a major impact on our HVAC pricing these days and there is a lot of copper, steel and aluminum in these pool pumps also. I dont think this version of variable speed is the future. I do, however think that a low cost variation of this technology with a few speed options will do well. This whole VF value story is not very sound in my opinion and the current VS pump is technology overkill for most pools in my opinion with the only value being replacing multiple pumps with one pump that will save some initial investment. Whew.I need to go rest my typing fingers and do some beverage curling at poolside now.