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The truck that's changing it all

Posted by quirkyquercus (My Page) on
Wed, Mar 7, 07 at 10:15

Hey I went to take a look at the new Toyota tundra to see what all the hubbub was about. Some of the articles said it would be bigger than the dodge ram. It's not quite as big as the ram mega cab but it does stand taller and have better ground clearance. It's a eency-weency bit bigger than the Silverado/Sierra but dwarfs the F-150.

It is now available in a 4 door with an 8' bed and unlike previous toyotas, the beds are very very deep now. You could fill it with water and swim laps in that thing. That was my number one request.

Unfortunately somewhere in the redesign the must have forgot about the rear seat. It doesn't appear much bigger than the Xtracab back seat on an '03 model. Maybe a few inches but that's it. The front seat on the other hand is way, way, way roomier so you don't have to smell the breath or armpits of your passenger. No more suicide doors which I'm not thrilled about.

Of all the models on the lot, I didn't see a single HUB CAP! Bye bye baby moons.

Looks like the same winmpy ~1500lb payload capacity. (compare to 1400 on a 4cyl '96 T-100) And while the towing capacity leaves F-150 in the dust, the 10k lbs doesn't quite top GM or Dodge.

Bigger engine and more HP than all the others and the EPA estimate to prove it. But unlike Dodge, they didn't go with a 35 gallon fuel tank. The tundra is heavier than GM or Ford.

They've got the styling down. It's apparent they consulted with the US. The interior looks and feels like a big domestic truck. When I got back in my '03 tundra I felt like I stepped into a Highlander or some more refined yet smaller cabin.

I don't know if they changed all the rules but they're definitely now a contender with the big 3. I think they'll move some units this year and have already seen a lot of '07s on the road with temporary tags. I'm not quite ready to get one yet maybe when the next model comes out and there's some more options to choose from.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: The truck that's changing it all

I went to my local dealer and they had one on the lot. It stickered for $33,323. I walked inside to talk to the salesman and he said that truck would cost me $35,823. "You want $2,500 OVER sticker?" "Yup." Typical Toyota dealer. Well, it's a nice truck. But since I don't need 10,000 pound tow capacity and it's too high for my wife to get into, and ESPECIALLY since I will NEVER pay over sticker, I'll pass, thank you. I'll keep the Expedition for a while longer.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

They want more then the sticker? Truck must be in very high demand.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Just got my April Car and Driver; they did a pickup comparison with the Chevy Silverado, Dodge Ram 1500, Ford F-150, Nissan Titan, and the Tundra. The trucks were equipped fairly equally, and the prices were within 10% or so of each other (with the Tundra taking the high price of $44,500 as tested).

The Tundra scored mid-pack, with pluses for horsepower, front seats, and off-road behavior; and minuses for poor handling. C/D called it "the muscle truck". The big winner was the Silverado.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

"...They want more then the sticker? Truck must be in very high demand..."

This is typical for Toyota and Honda. When a new model comes out they always want at LEAST sticker. Toyota is notorious for this. The dealers have had a reputation for years of being aloof when selling cars. "There's the car, here's the price. Take it or leave it." I first ran into this practice back in the early 1970s.
When the Pirus first came out the practice was exactly the same. But now they can't give the Prius away. I see ads all the time discounting them. And now Toyota has dealer incentives to move them because they're taking up too much space on the lots.

If Toyota would give the customer a fair price on the deal, I would be interested. But I have lived in 4 states and the sales practices have been the same in each state.

"That's the deal. Take it or leave it."

My sister in law has a Camry. She loves it. But after almost 2 years she is still angry that she had to spend almost 2 hours negotiating a lousy $500 off the sticker. She says that's enough to never walk into a Toyota dealer again.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

I was under the impresion that Honda, Toyata etc charged the sticker price to everyone. I think Saturn does the same. They call this (no haggle pricing). When by brother in law was shoping for a new vehicle he was pissed that Ford, GM, Chrysler would have special pricing for employees but not for the average joe off the street. He felt like he was getting ripped off. He boughtg a Honda instead. There are alot of games with numbers the dealers play when buying a new car. I worked for a guy that sold cars for the dealer. The stories he told me you would not believe. I have seen first hand how the same vehicle at different dealers price is so different. The wife get a Chrysler employee dicount and we went shopping for a Jeep to lease. The prices ranged with 0 down and $250 a month to $1000 down and $350 a month for the same model with the same options.


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RE: The truck that's changing some things

Aside from Saturn, "no haggle" is a property of the dealership, not the brand.

When by brother in law was shoping for a new vehicle he was pissed that Ford, GM, Chrysler would have special pricing for employees but not for the average joe off the street. He felt like he was getting ripped off. He boughtg a Honda instead.

Heh. American carmakers were offering an average of $2400 in incentives per vehicle at the end of '06 and your brother goes to the store that charges full price and then some? One reason I have never purchased a Honda is that they always loaded up the cars with dealer-added junk like rustproofing, fabric protection, rustproofing, pinstripes, rustproofing, tinted glass, rustproofing, fancy wheels, rustproofing, paint protection, and rustproofing. Ick. And they, like the Toyota dealers christopherh has encountered, could not care less if you were disinterested; there are half-a-dozen starry-eyed Consumer Reports readers right behind you who will buy the car at their price. Ick.

It's ironic, though, that so many of us are ticked off by "That's the price. Take it or leave it" while so many are attracted to the "One price -- no haggling" approach.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

We've covered "buying toyotas" in another topic. We all know it's a p.i.t.a. so....
I'll just say that with the Tundra I paid a lot less than a comparable domestic plus there were a lot of incentives at the time. I don't think they were selling like they had hoped. Only time will tell but I'd be willing to be there will be some adjustments to the price. I forgot to mention the dealer I went to had about 3 dozen on the lot, all of them except for a regular cab base was in the low 30's. Too much for a p.u. IMO.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

I read that due to a cost overrun of 430 million dollars for the new Texas Tundra manufacturing plant , Toyota raised the price of it's new Tundra by thousands to pay for those increased costs . Seeing as how the base regular cab 2wd Tundra went for about 18k on Carmax last year and how the new 07 comparable truck is stickering for 23k , I'd say that is the case .A nice truck , but 5k better than last year's model ? The price will drop if people don't buy , but there's always those who gotta have it now no matter the cost -like the fools who paid way over sticker to be the first on the block with a new FJ Cruiser a year ago .


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I would not buy one if they were cheap priced.i just can not figure out why so many think they have to buy a import brand anything.Oh and the because there better and the domestics are bad just does not cut it.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Jdeere,
The reason is because they last for a long time, better made, legendary Toyota reliability... which they would not be in business today if this were not true. No check engine light crap every month past the warranty, no plastic parts falling off. You will never know until you own one. Fact is America is getting fed up with the poorly made unreliable domestics and Toyota, whether you like them or not is making up for lost jobs. Up until now you still had to go with a domestic anyway for their capabilities.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Quirky you might want to check out the Tundra forums at edmunds.com as it looks like some people are finding deals below MSRP on the new Tundra . It seems to be a matter of finding the right dealer , but the best bet I've found is to be patient and wait for all the demand and fuss over a new model to die down .

Here is a link that might be useful: Edmunds


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

I would not buy one if they were cheap priced.i just can not figure out why so many think they have to buy a import brand anything.

It's that ol' slippery slope. Which car is more American -- the Ford Fusion built in Hermosillo, Mexico, or the Mazda 6 built in Flat Rock, Michigan? I know we've hashed through that topic in these forums before. There is no clear definition. Ford makes the very good Ford Focus wagon with a pretty decent turbodiesel in Europe. What do they sell here? The last generation model with one gasoline engine. Want a diesel -- the engine many believe could be a bridge powerplant to new undeveloped technologies? Ford could play. But they don't. And that, among the quality reasons, is why people often choose to buy an import. Hey, with the Big 1.5 doing that themselves, who's to argue? :-)


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

I was finding that in my neck of the woods its the lower price for the imports was why people were buying them. I myself would not. It is actually killing the economy hear in Michigan. The auto plants and suppliers are closing thier doors. I ask my neighbor why he bought a Camry for his wife and a Celica for his kid "It was cheaper". He may have saved a few bucks but he is also a contractor who right now has to go to Viginia to work so he can make his mortgauge payment along with those Toyata payments. Most people around here have lost thier jobs because of all the imports that consumers buy. He bacicly put himself out of work. Thats the way I see it.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Toyota does not have a service engine soon light?Or Toyotas service engine soon light does not ever come on?I know older cars do have a problem with that light.But as long as you have it checked and corrected I have never had a problem with it.Most just ignore it and then you have a problem.Does Toyota have a garantee the light will never light up or something?Maybe there is a commerical I have missed like there bigger brakes thing.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

What I'm saying is that you don't have mechanical problems and break downs as frequently as with the domestics. The domestic brands I have owned become very expensive to maintain after the warranty runs out and needed to be brought in to the mechanic on a regular basis. It was actually my mechanic who suggest that I buy a toyota when I respectfully told him one day that I don't want to see his smiling face anymore. And Since then haven't seen him again.

blue... "It is actually killing the economy hear in Michigan."

No my friend, the US automakers brought that on all by themselves. Don't blame the consumers because they want a better value, a car that is more dependable, better made and costs less. I do feel sorry about the loss of jobs in Michigan but I think the automakers need to be punished for causing that to happen through nobody's fault but their own.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Oh so your mechanic told you this?If he is right and the imports brands do not have any problems.Then I would think he would be the last one to advise someone to buy one?Sort of putting him self out of business I would say?

Maybe he is like a few shops around here?If you buy a import brand take it to the dealer if you have a problem.Because they will not mess with them.

I here the imports brands are better all the time.What I do not understand is.Why then do I see them lined up at dealer shops waiting to be repaired?There service departments are just as busy and have cars being repaired as the Bad guys the domestics.Maybe partly because the independent shops will not touch them?

Just what makes the import brands so much Better so much more Reliable is there grade of Plastic better then others?Maybe the Keebler elves bless each and everyone before they roll off the end of the assembly line?

I have owned several domestic vehicals we have 3 at a time and trade here and there.So we have had plenty of different vehicals in the last 15 years.

I have yet to have any plastic parts break or fall off.I have only had a serivice engine soon light come on a few times.Both times for a reason that needed to be corrected and when hooked to there code scanner the problem was detected and corrected for a very reasonable price.Small problems both times.

Not sure why you say the automaker brought it on all by there selves.Perhaps because of Unions or over paid Auto workers or there benefits package?But if thats the case and the import brands have a better more reasonable not so greedy work force.Then just why is it a Toyota cost just as much or more then a domestic brand?Seems to me they would pass the savings along to the customer.Atleast a Hyudai or Kia are a bargain to buy.

I see a lot of import brands when I travel to big city areas.But here is small town USA you see a lot more of the GM Ford Chrysler owners.We do not seem to read Consumer Distorts in small town USA like they do in the Big Cities either.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

"No my friend, the US automakers brought that on all by themselves. Don't blame the consumers because they want a better value, a car that is more dependable, better made and costs less. I do feel sorry about the loss of jobs in Michigan but I think the automakers need to be punished for causing that to happen through nobody's fault but their own."

How did the auto makers bring this on? Would you work for $2.50 an hour or so and support your family. I wont and cant. Many other countries $2.50 an hour is a lot of money. So that reflects on the price of domestic cars. I also blame the govornment to allow all this importing going on with minimal tariffs. There is no equal trade going on between the US and other countries. As far as the automakers need to be punished, it goes way beyond just the automakers who loose out. With plants shutting down, so does all the factory workers, engineers, and the part manufactures etc. Thelist goes on and on. The automakers are forced into now getting thiere parts made in Mexico, Idonesia, China, Singapore, etc.

" The domestic brands I have owned have been very expensive to maintain after the warranty runs out and needed to be brought in on a regular basis to the mechanic."

Everything wears out and needs maintenance. If you dont do regular maintenace thats when you can start having many problems. Do you believe in prevenitive maintence. Do you change your oil regularly, change your transmission fluid, flush your cooling system?Do the brakes wear out on your Toyota?Yes they do. Do your tires wear out on your Toyota?How about belts and hoses? Does that Toyota every need a Tune up? Last time I checked, Toyota still uses spark plugs in there internal combustion engine. Do the actual parts or the labor cost less on a Toyota? My sister had to sell her Honda because just the parts for her SUV were twice of what a domestic would cost! How is that better?


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Oh I'm sorry.
You somehow got the impression that I wanted to have a debate.

Whoops.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

''The Truck that's changing it all''Oh my mistake I guess it was a advertisement then?Maybe not however?What exactly was the point?


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Just what makes the import brands so much Better so much more Reliable is there grade of Plastic better then others?Maybe the Keebler elves bless each and everyone before they roll off the end of the assembly line?

You'll have to excuse quirky. He apparently had some really sour experiences with American cars and is very much in love with his Toyota. Loving your car is A Fine Thing, but I think quirky's a little blinded. If Toyotas were that much better than everyone else's cars and trucks, no one else would be in business. Toyota may be big and getting bigger, but they ain't everything. Eight out of every ten of us still decide to buy something else.

I just hope quirky hangs around long enough to discuss routine maintenance costs for his Toyota -- though I'm not sure we'll ever hear about it if the news isn't good.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Steve,

You mentioned the fact that diesels aren't in the Focus sold here in the USA. It's because of the Fruits and Nuts in California. They have pollution restrictions so strict that small diesels cant get past the board. And 4 other states have adopted those same rules. So when you can't sell a vehicle to ALL of the country, it's not profitable to make them. But when the new diesels come out, maybe we all can buy one, and they'll make them.
But Toyota has a LOT of Priuses on their lots.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

No steve you'll hear about it. I do remember posting in some topic that I had to shell out $6-hundred something on a '95 t-100 because the belt broke and in turn broke the pulleys.
With 150k miles it had never been in the shop EVER before. I had never seen the check engine light come on until the belt broke but EVEN THEN... it did not leave me stranded. I was able to get home somehow.

"''The Truck that's changing it all''Oh my mistake I guess it was a advertisement then?Maybe not however?What exactly was the point?"

The point of this post was to discuss the '07 tundra as the description for this forum is "This is a spot for the discussion of cars: tips on buying cars, repairing cars, insuring cars, acting cool in cars, etc." It says nothing about debating and we've debated this plenty in the past anyhow. I guess I just figured there would be at least some people interested in what I saw. Apparently the domestic pickup owners are somehow feeling like they have small penisses now that the Tundra is bigger and more powerful? Save the drama for your momma.


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We have had really good luck with our Fords in recent years, just for the record.

I just hate the fact that you have to pay way over sticker for anything in a honda or toyota showroom around here. Sometimes get on a waiting list, sorry no way I am getting on a waiting list for a mini-van.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

You mentioned the fact that diesels aren't in the Focus sold here in the USA. It's because of the Fruits and Nuts in California. They have pollution restrictions so strict that small diesels cant get past the board. And 4 other states have adopted those same rules. So when you can't sell a vehicle to ALL of the country, it's not profitable to make them.

True, the "CARB states" regulations used in California, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, and Vermont) did effectively knock new diesels out of those markets, and that's a good chunk of the market to give up. But VW sold TDIs in the other 45 states and DCX was selling both Mercedes-Benzes and Jeep Liberty CRDs in the other 45 as well -- until this year. Ford could have done the same (after all, they have engines they sell only in California to satisfy CA regulations). When America was getting used to >$3/gallon gasoline, Ford could have marketed the daylights out of a vehicle that was Top 5 in mileage (as the TDIs are). But they didn't make it available.

I absolutely agree with you that the people running CARB have their heads someplace more smelly than smoggy L.A. Killing diesel sales was shortsighted considering the benefits. But, in this instance, it wasn't California that messed up, it was Ford.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

No steve you'll hear about it. I do remember posting in some topic that I had to shell out $6-hundred something on a '95 t-100 because the belt broke and in turn broke the pulleys.
With 150k miles it had never been in the shop EVER before. I had never seen the check engine light come on until the belt broke but EVEN THEN... it did not leave me stranded. I was able to get home somehow.

Okay. I should step back and apologize for being unnecessarily harsh.

The reason is because they last for a long time, better made, legendary Toyota reliability... which they would not be in business today if this were not true. No check engine light crap every month past the warranty, no plastic parts falling off. You will never know until you own one. Fact is America is getting fed up with the poorly made unreliable domestics and Toyota, whether you like them or not is making up for lost jobs.

But I don't believe I'm the only one who thinks that you oversimplify Toyota ownership. Toyotas aren't quite as perfect and American cars (and pickups) aren't quite as cr@ppy as your posts make them sound. Toyota recalls for 2006 were in the hundreds of thousands -- about as many as GM and Ford recalled in that same time period. And the Scion brand score lower in J.D. Power's initial quality survey than every American brand except Jeep and Hummer. An anamoly? Maybe. It'll be interesting to see what happens in '07.

Obviously, people's experiences with brands differ. And it sounds like the numbers are way different from some subjective experiences.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

"initial quality". I have not heard of anything rated for "way past warranty quality"!

They have had recalls that has nothing to do with value, cost of ownership and dependability in the big picture, don't you agree? The reason there are recalls is to prevent safety hazards or mechanical flaws so if Toyota is having more of them that's probably because they care about maintaining their reputation for 'way past warranty' quality.

Oh and hey... Apology accepted!!!


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Wonder if the beds will rot off the Tundras and guys will put wooden flat beds on them.Maybe not since they did away with the two piece bed with that seam down the middle.I think they also copied off GM with there small and midsize cars and did away with the rubber band they call a timing belt.That had to be replaced at something like 70'000 miles or it did engine damage.They called it a service maintenance schedule.Rather then a weak link.I avoid Fords for this same ridiculous reason.Thats how Toyota and others and Ford get around a weak link.They just call it a schdulued service and make it sound just like changing oil.Amazing how many fall for that line of BS.

I here the imports are so great.But I can not think of one I have seen on the road from the 80's even early 90's.I think they have all been recycled into beer cans.Especially import trucks you might see one with a decent cap but the bed rotted off before the payment book was empty.


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I have been in the automotive industry for many years. We stock (way) more parts for the ford chevy and crys, than any other brand. Primarily the only parts we sell for the "imports" are the tune up/wear and tear parts. ie oil filter air filter and breaks. For the "domestics" we sell many major engine and chasis parts on a regular basis. Call it a coincidence.

I have owned a wide variety of cars over the years and honestly I have never had to do anything to my toyotas/hondas other than changing the oil. Also with my hondas and toyotas they exceed the EPA mpg est. My previously owned Ford couldn't come close to the est. Yes the imports and domestics may appear similar when new, but after a few years later the imports still run like new when the typical domestic is showing its age appropriately.

I am not getting my info from consumer distort or any other media with a slanted bias. This is real world results. And the toyota camry is the number one selling car in America for a reason. As stated before Americans want the best car/truck they can get for their money and the sales prove it.


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"initial quality". I have not heard of anything rated for "way past warranty quality"!

They have had recalls that has nothing to do with value, cost of ownership and dependability in the big picture, don't you agree? The reason there are recalls is to prevent safety hazards or mechanical flaws so if Toyota is having more of them that's probably because they care about maintaining their reputation for 'way past warranty' quality.

I guess I don't agree. First of all, I don't notice anyone parsing out defects which have immediate effects, longer-term effects, or outright dangerous effects. Toyota has had all three. I would suggest that anyone who wants to count Toyota defects that way extend the same courtesy to DCX, Ford, and GM.

Toyota's 2006 defects included one for the dreaded cheap plastic part that came off the front console and interfered with the gas pedal; one for weak parts of the steering system, which could render the steering wheel useless; improper finishing of ball joints, causing premature wear and deteriorated/unsafe handling; and air-bag inflators which weren't strong enough to inflate fully all of the bags that may have needed to be inflated. Some of those problems very definitely could have outlasted the warranty. And, BTW, recalling vehicles is very expensive and, especially when your company's name trades on its quality, is a quite-visible black eye. Toyota is not doing this out of the goodness of their heart.

I have been in the automotive industry for many years. We stock (way) more parts for the ford chevy and crys, than any other brand. Primarily the only parts we sell for the "imports" are the tune up/wear and tear parts. ie oil filter air filter and breaks. For the "domestics" we sell many major engine and chasis parts on a regular basis. Call it a coincidence.

So if you adjust for relative market presence, how do they hold up? Still sell disproportionately more parts for U.S. models?

Yes the imports and domestics may appear similar when new, but after a few years later the imports still run like new when the typical domestic is showing its age appropriately.

My brother had one of those Toyota/GM-built Chevy Novas back in the mid-80s. He bought it used with about 40,000 miles on it and he put another 70,000 on it. By then, the upholstery was coming apart at the seams, the headliner was making graceful arcs across the windshield, the dash was cracked and discolored, and rust was starting to pop up. My similar-vintage higher-mileage VW displayed none of those -- um, features. Yeah, by then I'd replaced the radiator and the steering pump. But the interior still was fine, there wasn't a single rattle that wasn't there on Day One, and it still was a much more pleasant environment than the Nova.

My ex drives a mid-90s Taurus. She's hard on cars -- if there's a pothole, she'll center-punch it every darn time. Not much on maintenance, either. But she's got 130,000 miles on it and it's been a relative Timex clock for her.

So much of this experience is anecdotal.

the toyota camry is the number one selling car in America for a reason. As stated before Americans want the best car/truck they can get for their money and the sales prove it.

I can't find specific figures for the Camry, but leasing rates in the U.S. are somewhere between 20% and 40%, so there's a chunk of people who really don't care that much about the car long-term because they won't have to deal with it then. Best figure I could find for fleet sales (car-rental, motor pools, etc.) indicates that another 10-15% of Camry sales go there, and that's a bunch who don't rely all that much on the long term because the car is out of their hands by then. Sure, it's important that the car is bolted together properly and that maintenance does not cost an arm or a leg, and, ultimately, quality plays on the residual value of the car, but these numbers indicate that at least one-third -- maybe as much as one-half -- of the Camrys sold don't have to live very long to leave their buyers happy.

Look, I'm not out to "get" Toyota. They are a shrewd company, they execute quite well (by and large), and, IMHO, they deserve their success. I'm not a fan of driving them, but that's something else.

I just want people to think critically about all this. Toyota is not the flawless jewel car which will last forever if you only feed it gas and oil at regular intervals; nor will the typical American car start spitting out parts as soon as it leaves the dealer's lot. Both the U.S. automakers and the Japanese automakers have legacies which lead people's thinking. U.S. manufacturers have had, by far, the poorer reputation, but that's changing, just as the "bulletproof" Japanese stereotype is changing (not necessarily for the better). Don't forget -- 30-40 years ago, the notion that Japanese cars would be significantly superior to anyone else's was laughable.

Good luck to Toyota with the Tundra. This is their third try at an American-style pickup and they are facing off against some of the most loyal vehicle buyers in the world. They will not capture that market without a fight -- if they ever capture it at all.


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"They have had recalls that has nothing to do with value, cost of ownership and dependability in the big picture, don't you agree? The reason there are recalls is to prevent safety hazards or mechanical flaws so if Toyota is having more of them that's probably because they care about maintaining their reputation for 'way past warranty' quality."

It took 2 years and threat of a class action lawsuit for Ford to finally pay up on thousands of 95-96 Windstar headgasket failures. They lost me as a customer after they showed me they didn't care a bit about customer satisfaction. Toyota seems to pay for such recalls better than many manufacturers.

"I here the imports are so great.But I can not think of one I have seen on the road from the 80's even early 90's.I think they have all been recycled into beer cans."

I have the following cars that are still running very well, with relatively few repairs ever needed: 90 Toyota Celica w/ 130K miles; 90 Nissan Maxima w/ 200K miles; 2- 96 Toyota Avalons w/ 230K & 135K miles. It'll be awhile longer before they're beer can (I hope!). I just like buying Japanese cars since I feel I have less problems with them. To each his own - buy and like what you want. Both sides of this issue have the right to do what they like. I agree - what's to debate? It doesn't really matter, since we'll all continue to buy what we want anyway.


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"I can't find specific figures for the Camry, but leasing rates in the U.S. are somewhere between 20% and 40%, so there's a chunk of people who really don't care that much about the car long-term because they won't have to deal with it then. Best figure I could find for fleet sales (car-rental, motor pools, etc.) indicates that another 10-15% of Camry sales go there, and that's a bunch who don't rely all that much on the long term because the car is out of their hands by then. Sure, it's important that the car is bolted together properly and that maintenance does not cost an arm or a leg, and, ultimately, quality plays on the residual value of the car, but these numbers indicate that at least one-third -- maybe as much as one-half -- of the Camrys sold don't have to live very long to leave their buyers happy."

Was that also your excuse when the POS taurus was the top seller, which by the way was only the top seller due to its "reasonable" price. The quality on thoes cars have much to be desired. We could go into the ball joint problem in the DCX trucks, the trany problems in all ford vehicles, and the check engine light display on all of the big 3. But this thread was about the new Tundra, which I believe has the big three beat by far. The silverado/sierra/yukon/escalade/suburban is supposedly up there but only time will tell as it has in the past.


"Don't hate the player hate the game"


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just what the country needs another huge gas sucking truck. whats that make about 20 full size pickups for every farmer,plumber, and construction worker in the country. hope the big 4 chokes on them.


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Well Bill, you can hurry down to your local "friendly" Toyota dealer and get a brand new Prius. Maybe they'll even take a whole $25 off the sticker! Because they're cluttering up the lot.

Look boys and girls, Toyota makes an excellent product. They've done their homework very well. But as far as I'm concerned if the buying experience isn't enjoyable, then I'm going somewhere else, that's all.
It should take no longer than 1/4 hour to come to an agreement on the car. Usually 90% of sticker and then subtract all the rebates and holdbacks and the dealer still makes a profit. But I will NEVER pay OVER sticker for an automobile.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Actually, there are incentives on the Prius for the first time ever: http://www.evworld.com/news.cfm?newsid=14220

Was that also your excuse when the POS taurus was the top seller, which by the way was only the top seller due to its "reasonable" price. The quality on thoes cars have much to be desired. We could go into the ball joint problem in the DCX trucks, the trany problems in all ford vehicles, and the check engine light display on all of the big 3. But this thread was about the new Tundra, which I believe has the big three beat by far.

My point through that whole post was that it's biased to declare American cars "cr@p" and Toyotas "legendary" when the cold hard facts don't support either argument very well.

Can you tell me honestly that Hertz gives a flying doughnut that the Camry they leased for 15,000 miles will (or won't) need serious work at 70,000 miles, long after they've sold it off? If you go to rent a car, do you specify a Toyota because you believe it will last forever with only gas and oil? Probably not -- because you don't have a stake in the vehicle at that point. That's why lease/contract is a part of the equation.

And, FWIW, Ford was really good at pumping Taurus sales into Hertz (when they owned them) to maintain their crown as #1 make and model. It had a regrettable effect on resale, but that apparently didn't matter to Ford then.

"Don't hate the player hate the game"

* shrug * No player-hating here. I'm not in the target demo for a pickup; nor am I interested in buying a new vehicle anytime soon; nor do I carry any long-term bias toward or against any brand. No dog in this fight.

My "dog" is in seeing an issue handled fairly. Somewhere between the folks who believe that the Tundra is going to turn the pickup world upside down and the folks who wouldn't buy a gumball from those arrogant job-stealers is the reality of the situation.

The pickup market is very loyal. Ask Chrysler. Better yet, ask Honda, whose Ridgeline isn't exactly setting sales records despite being better suited than most pickups for doing what most buyers want a pickup to do.

No matter how good the Tundra may be, Toyota's dealer and parts networks are nowhere near as extensive as the "Big Three's"; their reputation in this particular market is not as solid, and, as Toyota, they risk the perception that they are stealing good-paying jobs from red-state Americans because the profits leave San Antonio for Japan. IMHO, that's an uphill battle even if the Tundra can tow the Queen Mary, run for a week on a pint of gasoline, and needs no more than oil changes for 150,000 miles. And that won't be happening.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

GM is the leader in truck sales and always will be.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

This topic was posted so people were interested by reading the subject line on the index page could read more about it. It wasn't intended for aceholes (I'm forbidden to use the word redneck on these forums now so I have to use the word aceholes) to troll and start a war about which brands are better. The topic was very much in tune with the purpose of the forum and it has turned into a proverbial bar room brawl. If you don't like Toyotas and just posting to egg on an argument rather than engaging in an intelligent, on-topic discussion then go participate in other topics instead.
Please stop.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

''The truck that changing it all''Thats a proud title.Nothing wrong with that.I gave my opinion and you simply did not like it.Then the domestics are junk and the imports never break ''Spin'' began.

Sorry it just gets old and I have a right to my opinion just as you do.Sorry us Rednecks do not see things your way.Good thing us Rednecks stand up for what we believe.Because when we run out of Rednecks then we truely are in serious trouble.

How dare you tell me to basically go else where.I could start calling you a few names but this Redneck does not stoop to your level.You call intellegent discussions.I could careless what you have to say about me.I could careless if you dislike what I drive.But do not think for one minute you did not get the responses you were looking for.Because if you thought everyone was going to agree with you I highly dought you would have had the interest to start this topic in the first place.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

**domestics are junk and the imports never break ''Spin''**

That's exactly what it is imo. And there's an awful lot of people falling for it. A guy at work purchased a couple of ford taurus's brand new back in the weak transmissions days. Both had transmission problems at around 100k miles...not a good thing. That's not the point to the story. Same guy puchased a used Honda with 150k + on it for his daughter and spent good money to get it. First thing he did before giving it to his daughter was take it to a shop and spend another $1500 on engine and brake work...and was happy to do it. Still thought it was a good deal. Point is he was willing to spend what I considered a lot for a high miler honda + a fair chunk of change on repair. He just donated the fords to charity that he'd purchased brand new about 7 or 8 years earlier that were still in fine shape aside from the transmission trouble, not worth repairing in his opinion. Double standard imo.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

This has turned into a brand bashing thread , which it didn't have to if posters respected the POV of others . I've struggled to restrain myself from name calling on the tractor forum in regards to a certain poster who decided to brand lawn and garden tractors sold at dealers (instead of big box stores) 'Boutique' tractors . Eventually I've come to recognize this guy as a decent sort who puts a mere 12 hours per year on his bargain machine who thinks no one else need more machine than that . Good for him , but not neccessarily for everyone else -I respect his opinion ,even though I believe it to be severely misguided by his own personal experiences .

But getting back to the topic at hand , I own a Tacoma 2wd and need no more truck than that ,but I think the way Toyota is going after the owners of big domestic PU trucks is severely flawed. First off if they were serious about making inroads to that market they would offer competitive pricing -they aren't . In fact a Ford F-150 owner at work who is a big Waltrip fan (Waltrip's NASCAR stable is 3 Toyota Camrys ) was thinking of replacing his 6 year old truck with a new Tundra , but was totally put off by the high price and the dealers refusal to budge from MSRP ! Second they offer no diesel , which is an option that can give a large truck gas mileage in the 20 mpg range which another friend of mine who has a GMC crew cab with a Duramax diesel can attest to . And lastly raising the price of the Tundra to pay for cost overruns in the construction of the new plant expecting the consumer to pay for them with no budge from MSRP , especially given their huge profits in the U.S market is just flat out wrong ! So IMO while Toyota may make inroads long-term in the big domestic truck market , they are off to a bad start largely of their own making .


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

quirky, it's kind of hard to take this thread for a reasoned discussion of the facts surrounding the Tundra when you yourself salted it with the title "The truck that's changing it all" and with comments like "legendary Toyota reliability [...] No check engine light crap every month past the warranty, no plastic parts falling off" and "Apparently the domestic pickup owners are somehow feeling like they have small penisses now that the Tundra is bigger and more powerful?". Those are your words. And they're not conducive to a mannered discussion centered on fact and informed logic.

The Tundra hasn't changed anything yet beyond Toyota's capital budget and the lives of some assembly workers in San Antonio. It's not like this is the first version of the Tundra, which, so far, hasn't exactly set the world on fire. And it's not even as much of a change from the Ford/Chevy standard as the Ridgeline or even the Titan or the Dakota.

I think the Tundra needs to take significant market share from Ford or Chevy before it is declared to be the truck that changes anything.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

i lease so i change vehicles every 2 or 3 yrs, although i havent had a full size pickup in yrs, i have had several small trucks and many cars, i move back and forth between the so called imports and domestics all the time. in all honesty i just dont see any big diff. other than personal taste.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Quirkyquercus,

Thanks for the info on the new Tundra. I have a 1989 4WD Toyota truck that's my daily driver. I see plenty on the road - they just won't die! It's got no rust, no holes, and still has the original V6 engine and transmission. It's got a 5 speed manual transmission and it's still fun to drive. When I bought it, I was looking for something that could take me anywhere, that would never leave me stranded or stuck (it hasn't) and that had plenty of room for hauling things. The salesman told me it was a guy-magnet, and he was right about that, too. ; ) Unfortunately, the guys are mostly teenagers now!

It has aged well and the chrome bumpers are still shiny, though the red paint has faded. I'm vehicle shopping now for something that will hold two large dog crates inside so I won't be getting the new Tundra.

I love my truck, and I hope you have just as much success with yours as I've had with mine.

Barbara


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

"...And it's not even as much of a change from the Ford/Chevy standard as the Ridgeline or even the Titan or the Dakota..."

I have a 2000 Dakota with 135,000 trouble free miles.
Club cab, 4.7 V8. But it only gets 15 MPG while my 2003 Expedition gets 20.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Just to chime in one last time, the "domestic" trucks have not changed much over the last 30 years. The engines are still the IRON 2 valve/cyl pushrod dino engines(other than the ford which added the 3rd valve). However toyota and nissan have quad ohc v-8s w/ 4 valves/cyl and prove to make more power with less displacement (more efficient). So to take the title of this thread it is true, and not only are the imports changing the industry, I believe they are leading it as far as up to date technology and reliability. And yes most toyotas are strongly priced at the dealerships but when its time to sell you will be able to get a strong price in return. Everyone is definitly with out a doubt able to have their own opinion about which brand is better, but thats not what this thread is about. Who is changing the truck market? I believe it is Toyota and the big three should be prepared (look at the domestic car market).


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

I still highly dought they will change the truck market like cars.Yuppies just do not drive trucks .


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

i agree with j.d. i dont think for a full size working truck, that you can beat the big three. if your a farmer or contractor g.m. ford dodge they just have it, most variations, best track record, most dealers. toyota and nissan are getting close. now honda, to me thats the perfect truck for someone like me, who dosent really need a truck,except once every 2 months when i venture onto a construction site, or once a yr when i pull a trailer, or pick up a new fridge. i think toyota and nissan do small trucks much better, they actually make small trucks that can be worked hard.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

That's the way it is in my area of NW NJ , many Tacomas on the road , but few Tundras .And when most who buy the bigger domestic brands trade them in on new models every 4 - 6 years , paying thousands more for a Tundra good for 8 or more years of hard use it really isn't an issue for most of these large truck buyers . Brand loyalty goes hand in hand with working relationships built over years with local dealers - a tough bond to break . I see the new Tundra being bought by mostly current Tundra owners and Tacoma owners looking to upgrade to a bigger truck . But to get current buyers of the domestic brands , competive pricing and a diesel option are must haves for Toyota and they're missing that mark early on.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Who is changing the truck market? I believe it is Toyota and the big three should be prepared (look at the domestic car market)

Funny thing about that is that Nissan was selling a "full-size" pickup before the current Tundra showed up and, with your comment that the Japanese OHC engines are superior (I'm not saying they're not, just reiterating the comment), you show once again that, if, indeed, any Japanese manufacturer is "changing it all", it's Nissan, who got there before Toyota did. BTW, a diesel is in the works for the Titan, likely next year. When is Toyota introducing a diesel Tundra again?

But the proof of the pudding is in the sales. We'll see in a couple of years what has changed.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

OHC does that mean it has that ridiculous timing belt?That has to be replaced at 70000 miles or engine damage could occur?


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Belts can last a very long time. My VW turbodiesel has a timing belt that's good for 100,000 miles before it is scheduled for replacement. And some vehicles use timing chains.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

To reply to steve o, I did mention both toyota and nissan are leading the way as far as the evolution of the pick up truck goes. And yeas toyota also has a diesel super duty full size p/u in the works.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Some domestic brands of big pickups are engineered to run on flex fuel , mainly ethanol , which don't give all that great gas mileage , but are benificial for the environment . I also see a few gas company domestic trucks running on propane fuel as well here and there . Overhead cam engines aren't anything new , they have less moving parts to wear out , but offer no great improvement in gas mileage in a big heavy truck . Frankly IMO until a car company offers these behemoths with a hybrid engine offering close to 30 mpg , I don't think anything has changed at all . A big truck is a big truck , it's heavy ,it's not aerodynamic , it's going to handle poorly and suck gas ravenously . People buy them knowing that and usually have a big boat or trailer to haul with them , plow snow or some other farm/bluecollar type business. And someone could put the 5k or more saved by buying a domestic brand into one big boat or trailer . For those who buy them with no workload intended , does it really matter what brand of big penis on wheels they buy to enhance their status ?


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

For those who buy them with no workload intended , does it really matter what brand of big penis on wheels they buy to enhance their status ?

Actually, without previous experience with a truck or a specific duty for the truck besides -- umm -- enhancement, the brand matters a great deal. "Real" truck guys want something that can pull and be reliable and not require much maintenance. An interior that can be hosed out is better than some precious plastic thing you're afraid to get dirty. If you're posing, you should at least strike the right pose. :-p


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

**Frankly IMO until a car company offers these behemoths with a hybrid engine offering close to 30 mpg , I don't think anything has changed at all . A big truck is a big truck**

Ditto. I'm not so easilly impressed. Whoever invented the current engine management systems around 1980 that did away with the carburetor and precisely maintains the air fuel ratio through all conditions earns a phrase like 'changing it all'. Overhead cam has been around forever. More holes cast in the head for more valves ranks up there with drilling more holes or installing more lengths of metering rods in a carburetor to meter fuel, zzzzZZZZzzzzZZZZzzzz. The first company that comes up with the vehicle that has the same capacity as the 'push rod' engine, while getting significantly higher mpg, or better yet, doesn't use gas or diesel at all, will get my vote for 'the truck that's changing it all' title. I won't care who builds it first. Till then, we're just talking about more stuff as important as electric butt warming seats and headlights that come on and dim automatically, ect. Big deal.


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Yeah , just like the 50s were called the Age of Gorp by some , due to all the unnecessary gizmos installed in some autos , there is a new age of gorp in the big truck/suv class today with electrically adjustable running boards , onboard backup cameras , and so on . Frankly being a Toyota fan I'm disappointed that they have joined the bigger is better crowd . It kind of reminds me of Honda motorcycles putting a 4 speed trans into their big Shadow to emulate Harley in the late 80s/early 90s , when most Harley owners wanted a 5 speed . It was a copycat move that made no sense and was quickly deep sixed for a return to a 5 speed . And a Harley owner was no more likely to buy a Honda than a domestic big truck buyer would buy a Toyota . No matter how many gee-whiz geegaws they load these behemoths up with , when gas prices rise well over $3 a gallon (and you know they will) they won't sell in any significant numbers anyway - foreign or domestic .


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

Gary, this thread was not started because of dimming head lights or heated seats. Toyota is no claiming to have a truck like none other but rather an evolutionary step in the right direction. The new tundra is not too fundimentaly different from the domestic dinos, but it is exponentially refined from what most people expect from a truck. Yes all the bells and whistles are nice but you can look much further than skin deep with this truck.


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RE: The truck that's changing ... price

And now news that Toyota has put an additional $1,000 incentive on the Tundra ...

Here is a link that might be useful: Toyota Deepens Discounts on Tundra


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RE: The truck that's changing it all

No big surprise there , price will always be the number one factor when buying a big expensive work truck . A guy at work whose brother inlaw works at a Toyota dealership said the new Tundras are being recalled due to a glitch in the electrical system . I doubt they sold too many so far , so it wouldn't be that big of a callback if it's true . Wonder if that has anything to do with the new discounts ?


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