OT: I'm still trying to figure out the difference between "permaculture" and "homesteading." I thought I had it until I visited this forum. It seems that many people use these terms somewhat interchangably to describe 'self-sufficiency' and 'living off the land' (this was what I thought homesteading meant). My understanding was that Permaculture was a style or method of farming/gardening/growing your own food. I was defining permaculture, in my own head, as a symbiosis or synergistic way of "growing" food (both plant and animal). Is this incorrect? Homesteading and Permaculture practices certainly seem to intersect, but my thinking was that they had two different motives or goals that drove their philosophy? Back to the topic: I think your topic of conversation is a good one, and is very important for those of us that 'dream' of a self-sustaining way of life. When people 'dream' of just about anything, they tend to think about only the good/fun/easy things that interest them and tend to forget or -simply not know of- the difficulties inherent in making that dream a reality. In a dream of this magnitute (moving back to the land-homesteading?), costs MUST be one of the primary considerations. All residences, regardless of grandure or simplicity, will need repairs: roofs leak and need repair and eventually replacement, plumbing problems occur and need repair or updating, storms break tree branches that fall on your house or automobile, termites, rats, roaches, or bacteria/fungi come to call and eat your home/food stocks/seeds/plants. The need for money is inevitable, in my opinion. I finally bought a house, so I'm one step closer to self-sufficiency. It's a fixer-upper with a low mortgage that I am paying down as quickly as I can, but I've done little but shell out money for repairs since we moved in (almost two years ago). We are pretty handy, but we have no electrical or plumbing experience so that expertise had to be paid for. Even if you are a jack-of-all-trades, there are still the costs of repair supplies and materials, so I just don't see how anyone could hope to sustain themselves and their property with no money (not even mentioning property taxes). Someone said, earlier in this thread, that money was a substitute for having friends. I agree that having friends to help out certainly reduces the need for money, but as someone else pointed out, you can go too far with this and make your friends feel resentful. I agree with the poster who said that if I need to borrow a tool more than three times a year, I need to buy it for myself (and I wish my neighbors agreed with it too). How many times have you had a tool not returned or returned damaged, and had to shell out money to replace it? One of my biggest concerns with permaculture/homesteading(?) has to do with money. "What happens when I get too old or infirm/injured/pain-ridden to do all the things needed to sustain myself?" Surely people think about this when they 'dream' of going back to the land, don't they? What will you do when you can no longer climb on the roof to repair it yourself, cut down trees and chop wood to heat your home, or garden and can/put-up your produce when it all comes ready to harvest at the same time? Do people just work until they build-up a nest egg large enough to sustain them in the event of injury/old age? Seems like they don't, because many, many people are doing this at a young age, and unless all of them are making extremely high wages it's just not likely that they've all saved enough both for inevitable repairs AND infirmity as well as supporting themselves as they save. What do you do about medical insurance? Do you just figure you will stay healthy because you have gone 'back-to-nature' and you're eating home-grown foods? Do you just close your eyes and pray that you won't get sick or diseased, then push it from your mind? What do you do about clothes? I'm a frugal person and don't have expensive needs/tastes, but I will not even consider making my own underwear or socks. Making them would involve entirely too much time, skill, and materials when I can go to the local Walmart and buy a 6-pack of Hanes underwear for around $6, and a 6-pack of socks for about the same price. Even the most thrifty person has to have new underwear and socks once in a while...and you need money for that (whether you make your own or buy them). And what about shampoo, dish washing/clothes detergent, deodorant, analgesics (ibuprofen, acetaminophen, aspirin), antibiotic ointment, alcohol, peroxide, vinegar, toilet paper, bandaids, tampons, cold/alergy medicines, tea, coffee, sugar, flour, etc? Some of these things can be fashioned out of on-hand materials, but most are cost prohibitive to make ourselves. I mean no disrespect to anyone, nor am I trying to be flippant about this issue. I just don't see how anyone can NOT plan on needing money, and not just start-up money, because there are some things that will be needed that CAN'T be bartered for (Doctors, Lowes, Home Depot, and Walmart won't barter with you ... they want cash or credit) When I read that people expect to live with no money, I wonder what they are really thinking/dreaming about. Are they really interested in SELF-sefficiency or are they expecting to have an extended family of friends, neighbors and the community do for them what/when they cannot? Maybe someone should let the friends and neighbors in on this plan?

This ties in with the book I suggested. "Guardianship/Conservatorship is Bad for your health and wealth! GOOD LAW �" GONE BAD! The purpose of the law - known both as guardianship and conservatorship is to “GUARD” and “CONSERVE” * To GUARD “incapacitated” or “incompetent” people from harming themselves * To CONSERVE their assets and property; and * To prevent them from becoming a “public charge.” BUT SOMETHING’S GONE TERRIBLY WRONG! Over the years, a growing uncaring and unjust judicial system has helped convert guardianship/conservatorship from an appropriate law to one which, if misused, is damaging to the general public. At present, it operates to ensnare the most vulnerable people in a larger and larger trawling net, now including those merely physically "incapacitated"! It has become a feeding trough for unethical lawyers and other "fiduciaries" appointed by the courts to protect, but many of whom become nothing more than predators. Wards, instead of being protected by the system, are victimized by it. Strangers are given total and absolute control of life, liberty, and property of their wards. Wards of the state lose all rights involving self-determination, including: • the right to contract, including the right to choose a lawyer; • the right to control their assets and make financial decisions; • the right to remain in their own home and protect it from sale; • the right to protect and enjoy their personal property; • the right to choose where to live; • the right to accept or refuse medical treatment, including psychotropic drugs; • the right to decide their social environments and contacts; • the right to assure prompt payment of taxes and liabilities; • the right to vote; • the right to drive; • the right to marry; and • the right to complain. After being stripped of all their rights, wards are left defenseless and subject to exploitation by the very people chosen to protect them; they are now invisible and voiceless. Uncaring/corrupt judges misuse the law and engage in blatant due process, civil/human rights violations. Victims aren’t always given notice of hearings at which their competence will be adjudicated, aren’t always allowed to attend, and often don’t have lawyers. If the court does appoint lawyers, often they are too closely affiliated with other professionals who make their living in this special area; and do not properly represent the victims’ interests. Corrupt judges do not apply the required evidentiary standards in making adjudications of incompetency, and frequently fail to obey the protective statutes, or include specific findings of fact. Homes are sold to insiders at below market! Contents - family heirlooms, jewelry, photographs, etc. - disappear, either stolen outright or sold at auction. Estate assets are rapidly paid out to the fiduciaries in exorbitant "fees" and "commissions" until there is nothing left! “Fiduciaries” are given power of life and death, burying their wards in nursing homes where they are kept chemically restrained with unnecessary and dangerous drugs; family members are denied any say in their care, and sometimes denied visitation, except under guard at their own expense! Hard to believe this is happening in America? Believe it! AND GUESS WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THE COURT-APPOINTED FIDUCIARIES TAKE EVERYTHING AND LEAVE THEIR WARDS WITH NOTHING? A shocking twist: the American Taxpayer, whom these statutes are supposed to protect, is actually now PAYING THE TAB FOR THEIR CONTINUED LIFELONG CARE UNDER MEDICAID while the people who are "licensed to steal" enjoy their unearned and unjust enrichment. INSTEAD OF PROTECTING THE PUBLIC INTEREST, GUARDIANSHIP HAS INDEED BECOME A BURDEN TO THE TAXPAYER!… an extremely ironic, costly, and appalling consequence of a good law gone bad! Some fiduciaries claim that what they're doing (while filling their pockets) is to "spend down" the assets specifically to qualify the ward for Medicaid! No way!!! That's not what the law intended!" A link that might be useful: National Association to Stop Guardian Abuse www.stopguardianabuse.org/

Hi Norwega, My sister has 3 teenagers, is a single mom, so finances are tight, but she has never learned to manage her own money well. Your sister's kids will always (and HAVE been) watching her values & habits. Will SHE be willing to read and/or listen too CDs/Tapes to break her established patterns and re-learn new habits? If not... the kids are not likely to do anything different UNLESS they are doing so in DEFIANCE to Mom... Her middle son seems to be following in her footsteps, wanting to have things before he has the money. He's in basketball, which will hopefully result in a college scholarship. I'm looking for recommendations on books or other that our mom, his gramma, can work with on him on learning finances. Character is the underlying issue in finance. Far more so than any mathematical principles. If he's REALLY strong in Basketball, I recommend 1st getting him addicted to the focus on Principles by giving him "They Call Me Coach" by John Wooden (the winningest college dynasty basketball coach ever in history.) They Call Me Coach (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/They-Call-Coach-John-Wooden/dp/0071424911/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7614444-2019238?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175881006&sr=1-1 If your nephew is a student of the game, he'll definitely "see the light." A class on finances is offered in the high school, but he's a junior, and I imagine he's already committed to classes for his senior year. This came up because he wants to borrow money from me to go to prom. One thought was he could do chores for his gramma to work off the money owed from me. Please advise. Here's a list of appropriate "starter books" for anyone (but especially young people); Rich Dad's Escape from the Rat Race: How to Become a Rich Kid by Following Rich Dad's Advice (Rich Dad) (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/Rich-Dads-Escape-Rat-Race/dp/0316000477/ref=sr_1_16/002-7614444-2019238?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175880409&sr=8-16 Rich Dad Poor Dad for Teens: The Secrets About Money--That You Don't Learn in School! (Rich Dad Poor Dad) (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/Rich-Dad-Poor-Teens-Money-That/dp/0446693219/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/002-7614444-2019238?ie=UTF8&qid=1175880409&sr=8-16 Rich Dad's Rich Kid, Smart Kid: Giving Your Children a Financial Headstart (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/Rich-Dads-Kid-Smart-Financial/dp/0446677485/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b/002-7614444-2019238?ie=UTF8&qid=1175880409&sr=8-16 Think and Grow Rich: The Landmark Bestseller--Now Revised and Updated for the 21st Century [ABRIDGED] (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/Think-Grow-Rich-Landmark-Bestseller-Now/dp/1585424331/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-7614444-2019238?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175880523&sr=1-2 The Wisdom of James Allen : Including As a Man Thinketh, The Path to Prosperity, The Mastery of Destiny, The Way of Peace, and Entering the Kingdom (Radiant Life) (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/Wisdom-James-Allen-Including-Prosperity/dp/1889606006/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2/002-7614444-2019238?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175880588&sr=1-2 Richest Man in Babylon (Paperback) http://www.amazon.com/Richest-Man-Babylon-George-Clason/dp/0451205367/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-7614444-2019238?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1175880631&sr=1-1 Hope these help! Dave Donhoff Strategic Equity & Mortgage Planner

No, cmarlin, I was not talking about self-employed people. And as for 'Ughhh, I don't want to be like those other countries. Look at the total picture, do you really want to have that?' Yes, I would. Among other things, a system in which such things as healthcare are not at the whim of the employer would stabilize a lot of lives. If it weren't for the huge jump in my healthcare costs due to changing jobs - new copays are much, much higher - we would be able to keep our house. (Guess that's my own fault for having the bad taste to get a chronic illness and not recover or die. :-) I'm very grateful for the coverage I do have, of course, considering I spent the first 2 1/2 years I was ill with no medical care whatsoever. But it doesn't make it any more pleasant when a prescription that cost me $10 in December now costs me $50 or more.) 'How can a full time employee get no paid vacation? I work in employee benefits and don't understand that one.' Before I became disabled in the mid-1990s, I had never received either paid vacation days, paid holidays, or paid sick days: I didn't work, I didn't get paid, it was as simple as that. I don't know what there is to understand or not understand. I worked in the restaurant business - almost entirely for independents, not chains, since I preferred actually cooking to reheating and assembling prepackaged stuff. ;-) Most of my friends and family are at the lowest income levels (some of them make not much more than minimum wage) and work for smaller companies, and those two factors tend to drastically reduce access to benefits like paid time off. The more you get paid in the private sector, the more likely you are to get paid time off and other nice bennies... at the other end, you get to be happy you have a job at all. (Anyone read Barbara Ehrenreich's 'Nickel & Dimed'?) In the US there is NO 'right' to paid time off of any kind; even the FMLA provides only for unpaid time off, which in the lower income levels is a joke. The Fair Labor Standards Act says specifically that there is no legal right to pay for hours not worked (even for Federal holidays where the employee may be involuntarily prevented from working because the workplace is closed). I have posted a link below to the report from the Center for Economic and Policy Research on vacation/paid leave time in the US versus other countries. Here is a link that might be useful: 'No-Vacation Nation'