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lethargobuild

Building Science

lethargo
9 years ago

How can we best determine the most cost-effective and energy effective practices for our location?

We're thinking spray foam insulation on 2x4 walls, and maybe icf foundation. But we can't say why... We'd like geothermal and an air-tight envelope for energy efficiency but we don't know how to get that envelope tight, and properly installed in our climate. Passive solar sounds promising, but how do we get that incorporated in our design without paying megabucks for the design? -isn't there an app for that yet?! ;-)

Will we need to learn this? Will it take years?!

Comments (22)

  • virgilcarter
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Where is your building location? An answer for your question depends entirely on your specific climatic conditions!

    Good luck on your project!

  • nanj
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The Building Science Corporation website is a wealth of information but can be overwhelming. The link provided has recommendations for various climates in the US so you can see what works for your specific location. This site has so much information - makes my head spin to think I need to be at least familiar with most of this so I will know if the builder and subcontractors are using "best practices".

    A good place to start is EnergyStar.gov. Follow the links in New Homes > Features and Benefits > Explore More Features.

    Posts on this forum by "energy_rater_la" and "Brian_Knight" are also a wealth of information.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Enclosures That Work

  • mushcreek
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    greenbuildingtalk dot com is another good site to ask questions and learn. No one construction method is ideal for all climates. Considering how big and important a house building project is, it's worth your time to learn all you can.

  • lethargo
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you all very much. Nanj, I think we're feeling similarly-overwhelmed by needing to At Least be familiar with the best practices, when we'd really rather know and fully understand them. Time doesn't allow us to gain that type of knowledge and experience on this project unfortunately.

    We are in southern Michigan. South-facing, wooded lot. We have some restrictions from the HOA and our budget. We will be building as close to 3000sq ft. house as possible, above not under. 2 story, full walkout basement. We have a builder that is ...old school, but willing to try new things. We're willing to pay for him to attend conferences and weekend seminars, etc. to get some updated information.

    We'd like a house that is conforming to today's design, but has as much underlying energy efficiency as we can afford, We may very well do geothermal, as our early quotes puts that out only slightly above traditional systems. We'd like to focus early on getting a tight envelope, and aim for smaller heating system. Use as much ee technology as we can afford, like hot water re-circulation-it sounds great, but is it really worth it?

    I'll start looking over these sites you've recommended. I've been to a couple already, but am overwhelmed because I don't know where we'll start and what is a good progression of information to learn.

  • energy_rater_la
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I agree that it is overwhelming.
    as noted, buildingscience.com is a great
    resource.
    Joe Lstiburek has written books for
    each climate. mine is Builder's Guide
    to Hot Humid Climates.
    this is the first investment I would make,
    as this is a very comprehensive guide
    to building a home.
    I'm on my second copy as the first one
    fell apart from overuse.
    (and this one is signed! so I'm taking
    good care of it!)

    there are ways to make walls air tight
    without foam insulation.
    foam sheathing on exterior of walls
    ist air & moisture barrier when caulked
    & taped. conventional insulation and
    Airtight Drywall Approach
    will make any wall air tight with attention
    to detail. the foam on the exterior will
    eliminate thermal bridging & stop air
    movement within the wall cavities.
    the ADA will stop air movement from
    interior of house, allowing insulation
    to perform.

    airtight is the key, then provisions for
    fresh air are made.
    sizing & design of hvac system & duct
    system are next, and are all too often
    left out of early planning stages.

    since you are building new, invest in
    windows with low shgc & ufactors.
    shop brands by NFRC labels.

    pay attention to openings in ceilings.
    each should be sealed & not just covered
    by trim kits, supply grills & covers.

    blogs...greenbuilderadvisor
    energyvanguard etc.

    and if we can be of help...

    best of luck

    Here is a link that might be useful: http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/information-sheets/air-barriers-airtight-drywall-approach

  • robin0919
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Have you looked at ICF?

  • lethargo
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you energy_rater_la! Is the building science book that you recommended useful for a novice? I would appreciate a book, I like that they're already organized with information versus searching aimlessly through the internet for useful articles.
    The builder does OSB, then rigid foam board-taped and sealed, then house wrap. He uses cellulose inside. We have used spray foam in the past, in an unfinished basement, and were pretty impressed. We only paid $500 for 1000sqft of basement, only the top half of the walls, 4" thick. Is the cost for spray significantly more expensive? I feel like it would reduce some of the oversights on taping and caulking that might otherwise be made, but perhaps that is incorrect.
    How do you recommend planning the HVAC system? Will the GC take care of securing bids? How do we have input on this aspect?
    Windows, I had to google every acronym you used there (eek!), we have only gotten so far as to choose fiberglass windows over vinyl, budget allowing.

    We are still in the planning stages. What should we consider while designing the house? Is there online software that would help determine the energy efficiency of our project?

    I really appreciate this input, thanks!

  • lethargo
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Robin, we have talked about ICF, but the builder hasn't had a good experience with it and we're unsure about the cost versus affordability. We are considering ICF for the basement-we are still trying to figure out the insulation for the foundation.

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The whole energy efficiency, HVAC, build it tight/ventilate it right process IS extremely complex and does require a lot of study and understanding. To illustrate--

    We're in Michigan and in 2006-07 built with ICFs to the top of the first floor including the basement & garage, 2" of XPS(?) under the basement & garage slabs, 2x6s on the 2nd floor with 2" of XPS (?) on the exterior (the house is a story & a half), DH sealed every crack and hole he could find before the 2nd floor was insulated, blown-in cellulose over ~1" of sprayed foam, geothermal, HRV, 2' roof overhangs, garage & closets on the N side, solar hot water, energy efficient windows, front & walkout face SE, deciduous trees on E, S, & W, and probably some other energy efficient features I've forgotten. Oh, and hurricane clips for the roof--which he had to tighten, since the framer didn't!

    My husband devoured Joe Lstiburek's "Building for Cold Climates" book--we also checked his schedule online and went to hear Joe speak 4 times--and anything else he could find about building an energy efficient house. We were owner-builders, since at that time we could not find any builders around us (Detroit suburbs) who understood much of anything in Joe's book when we began looking for someone in 2003-06.

    DH says if he had it to do over, he'd still use ICFs for the basement and maybe the garage, but would probably use double stud construction for the rest. We had figured the cost of energy would only go up (HA!), so we did the geothermal pre-government subsidies and paid a hefty price for it. However, along with the ICF walls, we have a VERY comfortable house.

    DH and a guy who was also a surveyor built the entire ICF structure, with occasional help from 2 other men. It took them 3 months working 6 days a week, partly because they were both perfectionists, but also because DH likes to discuss every decision--did I say we went way over our budget?

    As far as I could tell, there were 3 key parts to building with ICFs--getting everything plumb & square (or other subs won't want to work on finishing up the house), getting all of the rebar in and connected, and bracing the forms and getting the concrete in without blowouts. Try lifting several pieces of 1-2' rebar at HD or Lowes to understand how difficult it is to lift hundreds of pieces of 14' long rebar, especially the vertical ones that have to be raised above the edge of the ICF forms and threaded through the horizontal rebar already put in place!

    DH was paranoid about the HVAC system. We hired the best-known geothermal people around. These were the people DH trusted the most of all of our subs--and they happened to sub out the duct work on our house. After a few years of trying everything to get the moisture to move out properly, DH & the guy who helped him originally do the ICFs tore out the ducts they could still access and put in a larger diameter, rigid instead of flexible ducting, and angled some of the elbows wider than 90 degrees. We also have the furnace fan (?) running 24/7 during the cold months. Things have been MUCH better since then.

    DH spent several years getting up to speed on the subject of energy efficient building. There's a lot to know and UNDERSTAND in order to get the systems right. We found that builders and subs will promise anything to get the job, and then most (in our case, the subs) will just do whatever is easiest for them. One or both of us were on site every day, and we corrected something almost every day.

    We've had several people tell us that many subs left the state during the downturn. DH has a friend who's an electrical contractor who pre-2008 had several crews. Now he can't find any qualified electricians to work for him, and he has more work than he can handle. So I'm just trying to warn you that once you start building, be sure to double check everything at the end of the day when the subs have left.

    A web site I've heard DH recommend in the past (besides Joe L's) is bestofbuildingscience.com at the University of Oklahoma.

    Good luck as you proceed with your build.

    Anne

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm curious why 3,000 sq ft is a minimum. If you want to build green, build small....less to heat, cool, maintain, furnish, insure, pay taxes on, etc.

    We did a lot of green things, mostly by the seat of our pants with me doing research along the way and talking to people. We ended up with a solar tempered design (lots of windows on the south side, few on the north), active solar panels, geothermal, tankless hot water heaters, closed cell insulation, full walkout basement that's open to the south, underground on the north, all duct work in conditioned space, wood stove for supplemental heat, and fresh-air recirc system. We probably could've made different choices for less money, but what we did seems to work well for us. The old house was about half the size of this one and we keep this house a lot warmer...the old one didn't even have central a/c. Yet our total energy cost...for literally everything...in this house vs. the old one is $20 more per month than just the lighting bill there.

  • worthy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We have used spray foam in the past, in an unfinished basement, and were pretty impressed.

    If it was not covered by an ignition barrier, it was likely not legal and was definitely extremely dangerous.

    Incidentally, depending on the density, spray foams differ greatly in their performance and usefulness in various applications. They come in densities ranging from closed cell to mid density to open cell.And blowing agents are often not environmentally friendly.

    An independent energy consultant should enable you to make informed decisions. Unless you want to emulate jimandannne and spend years researching and become a builder youself.

  • energy_rater_la
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    the book can get a bit technical at times.
    what I've found useful is to copy pages for
    builder/crew & different trades.
    it will give several scenarios for each portion
    of the build.
    in my book the first half is design, which is
    where efficiency starts.
    the next 1/4 is construction, the last 1/4
    divided between sips/icf &paac systems.
    Joe has a way of explaining things so
    simply that anyone can understand.

    in the wall construction you describe
    the ADA would be the one thing to
    educate yourself on, so that you can
    impart what you want to the sheetrock
    crews. we don't go as far with ADA as
    cold climates, for us, caulk is sufficient
    as long as walls/ceilings are taped/floated as if
    no ceiling moldings were being installed.
    (which is what we usually tell the sheetrock
    crews...just to keep it simple..big believer in
    KISS)

    builder will have a relationship with hvac company.
    most builders will go for minimum efficiency,
    so that you want to upgrade is a discussion
    you'd want to have early in the process.
    I don't have experience with geothermal for the
    simple fact that it is too expensive here.
    I've had a lot of clients who started out with
    geo in mind only to switch to high eff heat pump
    or a/c gas based on cost & lack of experience
    of local hvac companies.

    where will heating system be located?
    is natural gas an option?
    what type of heat do you have now?
    there is another forum for hvac where pros
    answer homeowner questions
    hvac-talk.com what I can't answer
    due to my lack of experience with geo
    & basements...these guys can handle.

    as for spray foam insulation...I reserve those
    $$ for roofline for homes with ducts/equip
    in attic or for attic floor when ducts/equip
    are located elsewhere.foam for houses with crawlspaces
    under the floors. no basements here.
    you can call local foam companies to get
    prices, as they vary widely.

    if this is the route you chose, we will talk
    about install of foam to help you determine
    which installer to choose.

    best of luck.

  • energy_rater_la
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    hiring someone like myself would
    give you specific information based on
    your specific location & build.

    an established energy rater will have
    established working relationships with like
    minded trades.
    having hvac/insulator on same page saves
    everyone time & money.

    check with resnet.us for an energy rater
    in your area. make sure they are experienced
    in new construction.

  • lethargo
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anne, thank you for your input again! We'd rather not become so involved in the project. We're a young family and have many things to do while our children are at these demanding and brief ages. We hope we can put together a good team of subs to help us get us to where we want to be in the new home. Thank you for the head's up on keeping tabs on the work completed. We have learned from past projects some level of supervision saves everyone time and money and makes us happy customers! We're looking at a company caller Porter and Heckman in Lapeer that has done some work with geothermal. We're hoping to have the geothermal and well dug at the same time, and hoping that will save some costs (albeit minor). I've been looking at some seminars, I'll add Joe's name to my list to keep an eye out.

    AnnieD, the sq ft is the required minimum to build on the lot by the HOA. We won't be able to afford all of the energy efficient elements that we'd like to put into the house, but we're going to try to focus on elements that will be the costliest to retrofit.

    Worthy, sorry, I meant that it was applied as a retrofit, not as a new build. The foam was one aspect of finishing the basement.

    How can I be sure the energy consultant is good for us? I have contacted someone, but they seemed confused by some of the aspects I was inquiring about. He did charge a small fee, but we would happily pay the fee if it meant significant wise and helpful information and planning.

    Thank you energy_rater for your advice! I've got the book in my Amazon cart, just waiting to ship! I'll have a look there, and start pouring through it and some of the recommended forums for help.

    Thanks so much everyone!

  • lethargo
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is the only energy rater company within an hour of us, http://www.ktgroupinc.net/home.html

    I'm nervous to hire a company like this, it seems very familiar to an company we've previously worked with that has since closed.

  • BrianKnight
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Its refreshing to find GW questions and comments have come a long way in this area. These are the decisions that will be a part of society for a very long time. Rather than be overwhelmed, realize that things may never be perfect but will end up for the better with smarter front end planning.

    I understand the trepidation with hiring a home performance rater/contractor, its a very tough business model these days but hopefully more like you will see the benefits in doing so. You could always negotiate for less upfront and I would think the money on the line would be negligible compared to say a window distributor.

    I think you should probably seek out a professional designer whose familiar with this side of the industry. It can be a tough search but there are plenty out there well versed in passive solar design. I would absolutely pursue better performance in this area with your lot description and climate.

    I strongly encourage you to go for Energystar certification. Depending on the rater, they can serve as a valuable third party throughout the design and construction process.

    The IECC 2012 is the international code to look to for building envelope performance. Try to meet or exceed the prescriptive minimums for a good performing home. The only thing that doesnt match up is the blower door test minimums. You should be aiming for 1.5 ACH50 or lower.

    I would avoid ICFs if pre-cast concrete panels are available.

    I think your preferred builder is on the right track with the insulative sheathing. Zone 6 calls for R10 which would be ~2" for most foams. If ZIP sheathing is common up there, it would be a good way to make the walls airtight at the structural sheathing layer but walls are easy for the most part. Its the transitions that need all the attention to detail.

    In our area, OC foam is about the same price as cellulose so its an easier choice for the cavity walls. Unvented roofs are a trickier decision of OC vs CC but whatever you choose, dont go lower than R49 which most spray foam contractors will gladly do to appear more competitive with traditional insulation. If you do it right (airtight ceiling) you can get great performance with a vented attic and pile up lots of affordable cellulose/FG for pretty cheap.

    This post was edited by BrianKnight on Thu, Jan 1, 15 at 17:02

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    lethargo,

    If you'd like, I can recommend an energy rater who helped us when we were building our house. I looked on the KT Group website, and I think our guy is qualified to do all of the things they listed, plus some others.

    He's been advising us on redoing the duct work that the geothermal guy's subs messed up. When he was here last week, he mentioned that he'd done a job over in Romeo, and some in Ann Arbor, so apparently works in many areas of southeast Michigan.

    Let me know if you'd like his phone #, and I'll get it, as well as his specific certifications (I know he's RESNET and LEED certified), from DH.

    Anne

  • lethargo
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anne, that would be very helpful Thank you!

    Brian, thanks for the kind advice! You're right in that we cannot get a perfect house, but we can do the best we can with becoming overly anxious. Thank you for the recommendations for what to attain to on our project, I'll look into those ideas.

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I have just emailed you the information regarding our energy rater.

    You're fortunate that there's a lot more information readily available now than there was when we began building our house nine years ago--actually, tomorrow is the anniversary of the date we began with the tree guys at the lot clearing the building site--and not much was available when we began researching energy efficient building during the five years before that. However, we found out about Joe Lstiburek early on, and used his book, as well as information we got from EEBA, and gradually DH found bits & pieces of info by digging around as you have.

    Training for people to get many of the various energy related certifications has been developed and improved relatively recently, and their use has been slow to penetrate most builders methods around here. But probably the reason you've had difficulty finding an energy rater is that they have to pay to be on many of the online contractor listings, and paying for each separate listing for each certification can add up, especially when most homeowners will not be looking for them, since they are more interested in spending money on kitchens & media rooms, than they are in the energy efficient details of a good house envelope and systems. And besides, they trust their builders to have told them everything they need to know. :o)

    When we were talking to builders about building, and asked about energy efficient features, almost all of them only mentioned increased insulation and energy efficient windows. Every HVAC contractor we talked to based the estimate for the size of the furnace strictly on the square footage of the house, even after we told them all of the things we would be doing to tighten the envelope. The geothermal guys were the only ones who new what a Manuel J was, and I think that so impressed DH, that he trusted them to do everything else correctly, which didn't happen in retrospect.

    Builders & remodelers who actively pursue high ratings for energy efficient features know who the certified raters are, because they network at local & regional conferences or ask their builder friends, so the raters usually don't need to advertise or set up a web site.

    You've already done more research than most people building a house. I hope all goes well with your build, and will look forward to your posts as you progress.

    Anne

  • lethargo
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Anne, I'm sorry I haven't received any emails. My information was terrible outdated! I've updated if you could be so kind to resend, So sorry!!!

    Thanks again for your help!

  • jimandanne_mi
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    lethargo, I emailed the information again over an hour ago, and also checked the box that said to send it to me, also. So far, I've gotten nothing, but sometimes things are slow getting through. Let me know if you receive it.

    Anne

  • lethargo
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks so much Anne! I appreciate this! I did get the email.