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susan148_gw

No Plumbing/Heating Inspection!

susan148
9 years ago

Hi All, am just looking for some feedback from anyone who has had experience or has knowledge. They are ready to start drywalling in our house, but we found a City Inspection Report yesterday which says that, "no underslab inspection was called in prior to covering the underslab plumbing" and that this will be noted on our Certificate of Occupancy. This was suppose to have been completed in October. Anyone have any opinion as to what we should/can do in this regard? City Building Code indicates that if an appointment has been made for an inspection and the inspector is one hour late, pouring of concrete can take place..."if" builder is sure work has been completed properly. They may use that as an out, but I am thinking from wording no inspection was requested and if builder can pour anyway, is it a big deal! Any advice/input would be greatly appreciated. First build for us!

Comments (13)

  • bus_driver
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The fact of no inspection requested raises suspicions. But it does not necessarily indicate that anything is not up to par. It may be sufficient cause cancel your contract should you wish to do so and if it involves no significant loss to you.
    Even if not up to code, the plumbing may last for 20 to 50 years without problems. If the plumbing has functional problems from the start, my opinion is that you have substantial cause for action.
    Ask the inspector about the implications for this missed inspection from his perspective. He may be well acquainted with the work, for good or bad, of that contractor.

  • susan148
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for your response bus driver. I appreciate it. That fact that we found the inspection report purely by accident concerns me as much as anything. Sigh!

  • MFatt16
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I wouldn't worry about that. They only allow those "missed" inspections for a few things in our area and it's because they are generally done right. They would not allow you to miss other inspections and keep working even if its their fault and they miss the appointment. Our final septic was that way, a 3rd party does the test and an inspector is supposed to watch and sign off. If they don't come to the appointment you are allowed to move forward without it. I don't think anything is noted on the CO though. That part is weird.

  • robin0919
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sounds like the city wants to CTA!

  • renovator8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Your general contractor should be handling this matter. He is your agent for dealing with the city building department so he probably already knows about the issue and might have received the notice. Ask him what happened and what he intends to do about it.

  • robin0919
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    In this day and age, maybe they can do an 'x'ray' below the slab? Renovator is this possible?
    Were any pics taken before the concrete was poured?

  • susan148
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks for the responses everyone. We spoke with the City Inspector this am...a man who is highly regarded in our town, I might add. He told us that while not having the inspection is certainly not ideal, it does happen occasionally...more frequently than one would think and is most often due to miscommunication between scheduling the inspection and ordering concrete. He said he didn't think we should be overly concerned as the contractor installing the underslab plumbing is excellent and that he is not likely to cut corners in his work. He also told us that we should definitely have the lack of inspection noted on our warranty documentation in the unlikely case there should be a problem down the road. While noting the lapse on the C of O, is to cover the city inspector should there be a problem, he said it is also what gets the most attention from the builder. Otherwise the contractor just pays the fee and no one is the wiser. We have not talked to our construction supervisor yet, will do that tomorrow. I do have some pictures which I may send to the city and the comment about the x-ray is an interesting one. Hope someone knowledgeable comments on this aspect. Thanks again folk!

  • manhattan42
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've been on both sides of this situation:

    Formerly as a builder, now as a building inspector.

    The 'fault' in this matter falls squarely on the builder.

    Why?

    Because building codes require inspections to be performed before work is concealed. PERIOD. And it is normally a criminal offense for a builder to not have his work inspected.

    The problem when it comes to concrete work... whether it be for footings or slabs...is that the builder simply does not want to be "inconvenienced" in his time schedule and often will not call for obligatory inspections.

    He has to schedule labor and schedule concrete trucks.

    He often has to schedule concrete pumps which adds to his cost.

    Working against him is the weather...whether it is from heat or cold or rain or mud.

    The builder, then, more often than not, takes the position that it is 'easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission' and in essence, thumbs his nose at the system and the rules and the entire inspection process to benefit himself.

    The builder chooses to 'roll the dice' and hope he comes up a 'winner' than work his schedule around when the building inspector can get to his job.
    -----

    That said and by doing this, the builder dumps all this irresponsibility onto the building department and building official and his customer... who are now left to figure out how best to handle the builder's malfeasance.

    The building department can (1)stop the job...but that can have the effect of only punishing the homeowner...

    The building department can (2) file charges and fines against the builder, but that, too can have a net effect of delaying the job and ultimately punishing the homeowner.

    The building department can (3) turn a blind eye or do nothing...essentially playing the same game the builder does...and hope everything was done OK and take its chances if it wasn't.

    In our jurisdiction, we normally require the builder to hire an engineering firm to conduct tests and to sign off on the concealed construction at his own expense before we will approve the project if such neglect of inspections by the builder occurs.

    This might involve sending cameras down plumbing drains under slabs to verify connections; using x-ray technology to verify steel in poured concrete walls, in slabs, or footings; or impact tests to verify concrete strengths once poured and cured.

    This is usually enough to stop 'repeat offenders', particularly if they are 'sub-contractors' to the GC...since these test can cost many thousands of dollars....and make a GC look bad even if it isn't his direct fault.

    If the GC or sub refuses to get the 'tests'?

    No tests, No Certificate of Occupancy.

    No Certificate of Occupancy.

    The homeowners cannot move in....

    At this juncture the GC usually 'gives in' when it holds up his final payment.
    ------------------

    Why is this approach important?

    Because not only can GCs and sub contractors be held liable for negligence....so too can building departments and building inspectors.

    If the negligence rises to a 'criminal' level, the building inspector can be held personally liable if his negligence is severe enough, and actually face jail time.

    (Recall the 'Great White' rock group fire in Rhode Island some years ago? The Fire Inspectors when to prison because although they cited the Club for inadequate protection of the foam insulation...they never came back to follow up to make sure the Club owner's actually complied with their violation report.)
    -----------------------

    Inspectors cannot sign off on work they actually did not visually inspect, and if they do, can be held liable for their misdeeds.

    On the other hand, an inspector "might" 'sign off' without engineering proof for minor violations....but he really should not and takes a risk for prosecution if he does.
    ------------------

    Bottom line here is that building codes and inspection requirements of your jurisdiction are in place to protect YOU.

    If your builder does not call for required inspections, he can place you in legal jeopardy if you accept his work...and the building department simply shrugs their shoulders...and issues a Certificate of Occupancy...because YOU can suffer when it comes time to sell your house...and you cannot..because of code violations concealed or overlooked.
    ------------
    My view is that you hold your builder accountable while you can.

    And if that means it holds you up from getting a CO because of his neglect...then so be it.
    --------------

    I'm simply going to stop now.

    If you have specific questions you might like me to address, please respond.

    Regards.

  • robin0919
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why do GC's NOT loose their lic doing this &(&^*&^$^???? Or at the very least get fined a very LARGE amount...I'm not talking a few thousand but 10's of thousands???

    This post was edited by robin0919 on Wed, Dec 17, 14 at 23:27

  • manhattan42
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why do GCs not face loss of licensing and/or large fines?

    Well, they do.

    But not usually for first time offenses and rarely even for repeat offenses.

    Courts have to see a well established pattern of intentional criminal misconduct and intent on a grand scale before they will act against a GC by removing his credentials or imprisoning him..

    How soon courts will act in such a manner depends upon the laws in your state, province or city.
    --------------
    GCs and subs also have the right to 'due process' in the US, meaning they can appeal a building officials' or court's rulings against them at any time.

    And GCs and subs often win on appeal!

    Justice is also often granted to the party that has the deepest pockets and the ability to spend the most money.

    Smaller building code departments tend to back off from prosecuting builders when it can too costly to them....especially if the builder has more money than the code department! If the code department loses, not only can the jurisdiction face legal repercussions and damages by the builders in a countersuit, the building inspector or building official can often be sued PERSONALLY if the builder can prove intentional criminal malfeasance or malicious prosecution against him.

    This makes inspectors and building officials think twice before initiating legal actions....because even if they are cleared of any wrongdoing, they may have to spend tens of thousands of dollars of their own personal finances to 'prove' their innocence!

    That's not a good thing on any inspector's salary.

    -----

    So there is rarely a simple easy way to punish builder/offenders each and every time they do wrong...and the crooked builders know that.

    Building departments have to pick-and -choose which cases to prosecute based on severity of the violation, the cost to prosecute, and the chance of obtaining a conviction.

    That may not be right.

    But it is reality.

    ---

    The good news is that most builders cave when they are threatened with criminal prosecution by the code enforcement office especially when it is usual for criminal fines of $1000 per day for each and every day the builder is in violation of the building codes are levied.

    The BAD news is those fines gets paid to the COURT if a conviction is obtained. That money does not normally go to the owner/victim.

    If the owner/victim wants to recover damages from the builder, he will usually have to initiate his own separate private civil lawsuit against the builder by himself and at his own personal expense.

    The building office does not willingly assist with these civil cases except to provide testimony when the inspector's and inspector's records are subpoenaed to testify against the builder and support the owner's claim.

    Even then, owner's can STILL lose what on the surface should be a 'slam-dunk' case.

    (Recall the OJ Simpson trials: OJ was acquitted in the criminal murder trial....convicted in a follow-up civil wrongful death lawsuit...but never paid a penny in any of those civil $33,000,000 wrongful death civil judgments against him.)
    ------------------------

    The best defense is to do one's research diligently before hiring any builder.

    States and cities often maintain data bases of administrative actions taken against builders through their contractor licensing or registration offices.

    Public record files can also be searched in most counties and states in the US for parties in civil and criminal lawsuits via the internet for free.

    One only need log onto these data bases, type in the name of the builder or builder's company....then get the search results of any and all legal actions against him.

    There are also many pay sites on the internet, where for a modest fee, you can research the criminal or civil background of the builder (and probably should) before you hire him.

    (Even if it costs you $200 for such a background search, what is that compared to the cost of a $200,000+ home build project, for example?)
    ------

    But be aware!: SMART builders will also do background checks on potential customers for criminal convictions, bankruptcies, divorces, civil judgments, credit scores, and foreclosures among other things to determine whether or not a potential customer should be trusted and was fit with whom to do business.

    I always did background searches on my potential customers and it saved me from financial catastrophe on more than a few occasions when I could have signed a building contract with someone who had no ability (nor any intention) to pay me!
    ----

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander!

    ----

    The bottom line is NO ONE can protect you from YOU, if you do not do not perform your due diligence in carefully researching and scrutinizing your builder before signing on with your builder.

    Not the building code office, your state attorney general, your local contractor licensing department, nor your building inspectors....

    That is YOUR job!

  • jennybc
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    So our concrete crew was ready to pour and the concrete showed up... But the inspector hadnt made it yet! The inspector had been out prior to final touches being made, so the concrete foreman took pictures of all appropriate areas (with tape measure included) to document his work. Inspector was more than pleased and filed the images in his file. This only worked because they had a good relationship and the inspector had been to the site. And they couldn't have waited, he was about 30 minutes late.

    Jen

  • renovator8
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Why would you schedule an inspection on the same day as a concrete pour?

  • sombreuil_mongrel
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Nothing to get excited about. So much preening going on I think I'm at a peacock convention.
    Residential plumbing in a slab is not a life-and-limb level of inspection like structural concrete in a high-rise.
    The inspector was going to quickly glance at the pressure test indicators and sign off. The plumber himself already performed that most crucial test, not knowing at that point that the inspection would be skipped.
    Casey