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mfatt16

Buying own materials for GC to use?

MFatt16
10 years ago

My GC gave me a hallway reasonable excuse why I couldn't buy my plumbing fixtures online. He said it usually means multiple trips back from the plumber since online purchases are notorious for missing or incorrect pieces. My question is whether or not it is likely that a Plumber will magically increase my plumbing bid if I provide some sinks, tubs, and other less "party" items to save $$$$. I found my Kohler sink online for $200 less for example. How do I approach this?

Comments (26)

  • _sophiewheeler
    10 years ago

    If the time for the job increases, you bet the price goes up. If you negotiate ahead of time for a few special items, it shouldn't be an issue for them. But you need to have a place to store them without damage, and have the ability to inspect them upon arrival to see if there are missing parts. If you don't have the ability to do that inspection or space to allocate for that storage, then you'd best leave it to the plumber to take care of ordering and storing.

    Professionals have developed relationships with their parts houses, so that if that $900 tub filler that you bought has a flaw in the casting, he can call up his local supply house and exchange it that afternoon with no questions asked. It's part of the service the supply house gives to the pros. Then the supply house will return it to the manufacturer for credit. Remember, if you order it, you're the warranty point. You've got to be the one to endure the hassle of dealing with the distributor or manufacturer. That can take days or weeks if the supplier isn't local.

    It's all about responsibility. You, or a pro.

  • MFatt16
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I agree on the timing but I am way ahead of timing on plumbing, we haven't even framed yet. I totally get the pats and warranty point with fixtures but what about a tub or sink? What could be missing? I did take the plunge and am buying and storing appliances at my own risk. I just wonder if the plumber compensates for his loss on the materials with increased labor. Will my plumbing bid go down the price of the tub or will I be throwing in and not reaping benefits. I guess I will have to ask the sub himself. Thanks for the input, your explaination is very similar to my GC and makes sense.

  • dan1888
    10 years ago

    Make this your decision by taking responsibility for getting it right.
    His "objection" is missing parts. Order everything immediately and check for parts. Nothing missing no problem.
    Give yourself time to correct anything.
    Then present the fixtures for a done deal and savings for you.

  • kirkhall
    10 years ago

    And, let them know ahead of time you have the tub and/or sinks. Before he bids. And, give him the model numbers so he knows what he is working with (at least, have them available. whether or not he cares, at least you've done your part)

  • _sophiewheeler
    10 years ago

    Things like this are done before you get labor bids on the project, not after. If you've already got a contract with him for 15K including fixtures, then that's what he expects to get paid. You don't change after the fact without paying a penalty. If you buy the fixtures in advance, and then get labor bids for plumbing that includes the install only, and the total is 10K, then that's what you pay.

    The difference is the responsibility for the product is built into his bid that includes the product. When the water is turned on, and one of the fixtures starts spraying water, you either call the plumber to come handle it and his insurance handle the water damage, or else you do the same thing, paying for a service call and using your own home owner's insurance to pay for the damages.

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    While you're at it ask the plumber if you can buy the pipes and fittings at Home Depot and to give you a list of the fixtures that are approved by the state plumbing board.

    Why are you discussing this with a sub-contractor; are you acting as your own general contractor?

  • lazy_gardens
    10 years ago

    I usually buy my own "visible" things and leave it to the plumber to supply his own "in the wall" things.

    But I make it clear before any bids are made that I'm going to be supplying ___ and ___. I accept the risk of flawed fixtures, they take the risk of installation flaws.

    But I wouldn't spring it on a contractor AFTER the contract was signed.

  • LE
    10 years ago

    Our GC basically told us that we could buy our own fixtures, but that the plumber would charge more for the rough-in. I don't really like this model, either, but I can sort of understand how it came about. I may end up buying one sink and a couple of toilets because the supply house price we got on the Totos was ridiculous, above list in one case.

    I can imagine a plumber getting a random box of parts and valves for a shower system, for example, and being expected to put it all together when stuff is missing or the homeowner bought something from a no-name source of unknown quality. No way they'd want to be in the position of guaranteeing it would all work. But a sink? a toilet? I don't see paying double for those because I have the time to shop around for them and they don't.

    With electrical, they do the rough-in, we buy the fixtures, so much simpler. The recessed cans were the exception. But there's less to go wrong inside the wall if we supply them with a funky fixture, so maybe that's why it works differently. I would just prefer for them to charge what is fair for the labor and a list of "here's what I can get you the fixtures for." Then I compare that to what I can get them for. We did all the legwork to get the list together, with some very minor help at one of the plumbing places, so it's not like the plumber is contributing on that end.

  • chicagoans
    10 years ago

    If you have picked out the fixtures you want, I think it's fair to ask what price the plumber would charge you for those and if it's way off from what you can find online, ask him why.

    As far as I know, home builders are paying the plumber to do plumbing work, not to pick out fixtures and charge a surcharge on the fixtures. If the plumber gets a discount on fixtures due to a relationship with the supplier, then it's fair for the plumber to keep whatever the difference is between that price and the best price the consumer can get. But marking up fixtures just because they can, or marking up labor because they're not getting their piece of the fixture profit, seems wrong to me.

  • galore2112
    10 years ago

    I must be super lucky. All my online plumbing purchases arrived in perfect condition without any missing parts. And they were WAYYYYY below MSRP. One of the benefits of not contracting with a homebuilder and keeping business with the trades to the absolute minimum.

    If you work with a GC or homebuilder, you'll pay either way because of the elastic pricing of something as complex as house construction.

  • dekeoboe
    10 years ago

    We also had no problem purchasing our plumbing fixtures ourselves and just having the plumbers install them - tub, sinks, faucets, shower heads, valves, toilets, etc. The bid from the plumber did not include fixtures and we never spoke with the plumbers about having them supply the fixtures.

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    In general, the most expensive faucets are made of SOLID BRASS with one of several plated metal finishes or STAINLESS STEEL.

    The middle priced faucets are usually made of DIE-CAST ZINC ALLOY with one of several plated finishes.

    The lowest priced faucets are usually made of an "advanced polymer material" commonly known as PLASTIC with a metal plating.

    It should not be surprising that the useful life of these faucets varies widely and that a plumber would be hesitant to install one of the online bargains.

    How can you tell them apart? If it's solid brass that will be the first thing in the description in order to explain the much higher price. If it is made of zinc alloy it will be as heavy as brass but no metal will be mentioned in the spec or it might be called "premium metal construction" or simply "metal". If it is plastic it will be very light weight and make a dull sound when taped with something metal. The best test is to pry up a handle and see if it breaks off.

    The typical homeowner should not assume that it is always possible to tell these products apart online by the abbreviated specs and model numbers.

    It's like buying a car - you are unlikely to outwit the people who make a living trying to outwit you.

    Here is a link that might be useful: typical cheaply made faucet at Lowes

  • galore2112
    10 years ago

    If there are different quality models of the same product, I'd wager a guess that a builder (or plumber) would go for the cheaper one because it will work, the home-owner will not know (unless the disassemble the product or start tapping to check if they are plastic or metal) and the profit will be higher.

    Why anyone would think that a person with a profit motive would choose a smaller margin is beyond me (the pride in quality argument is weak because even the plastic version will work just fine).

    For me, I highly doubt that the Kohler Antilia sinks are made of plexiglass for the unwashed masses and of real glass for the pros. However, if I buy them myself, I actually save thousands of dollars just for two sinksâ¦...

  • worthy
    10 years ago

    Even the best quality manufacturers put out flawed examples and mis-boxed products. When the sub provides the parts, he's responsible for replacing and/or fixing the mistakes. Once the homeowner or gc/builder provides the parts, it's their responsibility. Say the plumbing gc allots two days for finish plumbing. But lo and behold just one part is flawed or missing (or the plumber loses it) in something you bought, you're the one who has to run for a replacement and you're the one who has to pay for an extra 1/2 day for the plumber to return.

    In two custom builds--each with six baths, multiple kitchens and bars-- I figured I could save by ordering my own plumbing from local suppliers. Big mistake! Now, I limit my plumbing parts orders to unusual or custom items that the sub doesn't have regular access to--copper sinks, high-end whirlpools.

    I am a penny-pincher. But I found this is not the area to focus on.

    This post was edited by worthy on Sun, Dec 1, 13 at 12:19

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    The product switching scam might work for some other kind of purchase but not for a plumbing contract where the fixtures would either be clearly specified in the contract or selected during construction as an allowance item and marked up.

    If a plumber wanted to increase his profit, he would recommend using a solid brass fixture rather than plastic and thereby not only increase his profit but lower the financial risk of repair or replacement.

    Kohler controls the retail price of its high-end fixtures so a lower price is likely to mean that someone has gotten hold of factory seconds before they could be destroyed or is reselling products bought wholesale or a seller is going out of business. None of these situations should be attractive to a homeowner.

    Kohler's list price for the Kohler K-2369-B11 bathroom sink is $2,887 and authorized sellers (FaucetDirect, eFaucets, Home Depot, Amazon, Mayfair, FaucetDepot, etc.) can sell it for a retail price of $2,165 (25% off). A contractor would be able to buy it from a plumbing house for a greater discount so if he marked it up to the authorized retail price it would be a good idea to buy it from him because he would be responsible for the fixture at no additional cost to the homeowner.

    This post was edited by Renovator8 on Sun, Dec 1, 13 at 10:52

  • cardinal94
    10 years ago

    I understand all the points about quality and guarantee of work done when plumber has personally procured the products. Before we signed the contract, we started looking at specific things we wanted at local supply businesses. The prices were ridiculous. We found identical products sometimes 30% less online. Prior to completing our contract, we let the builder know this is the way we had to go to be able to put money into the unique and high quality construction we wanted him to do. He had absolutely no problem with it. For months, we have been ordering a little here and there in plumbing and lighting. Through this we have come across some neat and unexpected "finds" like hand blown glass pendants for several places that are far less than the manufactured pieces we were going to get. We have even had a craftsman make drawer pulls and shelf brackets out of forged steel that we personally designed. It is very time consuming to do all this sourcing, but the decisions would still need to be made even if going through the builder and his subs.

    My conclusion (really, I'm getting there):

    You have to be willing to take the responsibility for the quality of the products you independently source. We are both handy and capable of solving just about any maintenance issue that might arise from purchases we've made.

    Having this discussion after a contract is signed might not be good.

    If you do make these purchases yourself, try to use a credit card that has points. We're pretty sure we're going to get good toilets at Lowes with the gift card rewards we've earned

  • MFatt16
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Wow, lots of feedback. This is a fully specd out custom home. Our GC lets us have an active role so we sometimes talk to the subs about details ourselves or with him present. He is also open to us purchasing things on our own as long as we do it early enough not to affect him. Before he orders fixtures, fine, after, not fine.

    I think I am going to pass, I gather that the plumbing bid is unlikely to go down the amount of savings we think we would get. We are doing midgrade finishes, Kohler, Delta etc. We did the fixtures at Ferguson's and our sub says his price to us is 15% below MSRP. I did go out and buy and store appliances but I am unfamiliar with plumbing parts and pieces so checking myself would be difficult. Thanks for the input!

  • mom2samlibby
    10 years ago

    We are purchasing our own plumbing supplies. The plumbers that bid our house only bid the work and interior plumbing items needed. I had a bid on the items that we needed from Briggs. I took the list and shopped around all summer/fall. I wish now I would have waited and got more of it on the overstockdeals.com black friday sale, but I had already purchased most of it at the lowest prices I could find when buying.

    Anyway, by purchasing online, I have saved about $15,000. It was worth it to us to purchase ahead of time. We've checked over all the items to make sure that they weren't damaged.

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago

    "We have even had a craftsman make drawer pulls and shelf brackets out of forged steel that we personally designed"

    wow!

  • mrspete
    10 years ago

    I just had two faucets changed out on sinks in my girls' bathroom. I purchased the faucets myself and had a plumber install them. I asked him if that's what most people do, and he said yes. Of course, we're talking about a small renovation, not a whole-house build, so that's a pretty sizeable difference.

    I'd be perfectly willing to do the legwork to find the best prices . . . and I'd be willing to chalk it up to bad luck if a couple pieces I chose turned out to be bad or incomplete. I can't believe that would happen with more than 1-2 items in the whole house, and if I'd saved a bit on everything (by everything, I'm thinking of the plumbing fixture portion that shows, light fixtures and ceiling fans), I'd still come out ahead.

  • MFatt16
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I will keep my eyes open for more sales. The OverstockDeals.com prices are really great but I am not sure just yet. I struggle with wanting to save and taking on the responsibility for the parts and pieces etc. For my appliances it was worth the risk because I got higher end stuff on the same budget by buying at a warehouse sale myself and storing. I am not sure I want to risk the plumbing too. Decisions, decisions......

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    When a plumber does a small job it is customary for him to charge for his time at an hourly rate plus the actual cost for the materials so it shouldn't matter to him who buys the fixtures as long as they are correct and delivered on time.

    But that won't work as well on a larger job since there would be a General Contractor involved and the plumber would have submitted a bid to the GC without the fixtures and the GC would have to deal with coordination of plumbing materials from more than one source since he is ultimately responsible to the owner for the plumber's work. For a home the homeowner should remember that the plumber is not working for the owner as he would on a repair project.

    However, with so many homeowners wanting to buy fixtures from the internet, some plumbers and GCs feel they must allow that to happen and therefore the plumbers adjust their labor rates to include the OH&P they are losing from material markups.

  • galore2112
    10 years ago

    "Kohler's list price for the Kohler K-2369-B11 bathroom sink is $2,887 and authorized sellers (FaucetDirect, eFaucets, Home Depot, Amazon, Mayfair, FaucetDepot, etc.) can sell it for a retail price of $2,165 (25% off). A contractor would be able to buy it from a plumbing house for a greater discount so if he marked it up to the authorized retail price it would be a good idea to buy it from him because he would be responsible for the fixture at no additional cost to the homeowner."

    I just don't understand how paying $1444 extra for two pieces of glass would be of any benefit for the homeowner? What responsibility? That it doesn't break from unpacking to installing? It puzzles me that some people are that risk averse but to each their own...

  • MFatt16
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    I am not worried about the sinks, more the parts and pieces on faucets. But the bigger risk is that the plumber won't just deduct the cost but will recoup it elsewhere to cover his risk. My GC said with lighting and plumbing the chances are great enough that parts will be required that it nearly guarantees a delay that will cost money. We could buy extra of everything to have on hand but its no likely worth it. I may do the sinks on my own still but I have not decided.

  • sandy808
    10 years ago

    We were our own contractor with our house this time around, but we did hire a builder for our last home. Whether someone hires a builder or not, it is very wise to acquaint yourself with each and every aspect of the process, and to stay heavily involved. We had retained the right to purchase our own materials/fixtures if we wanted. The builder wasn't thrilled, but we would not have signed on with him otherwise.

    We always asked first what the builder pricing was for a particular item. For example, a specific light, toilet, etc. At all times we were able to go out and buy the exact same item ourselves for a lot less.

    If you have concerns about an item, for example whether a faucet has brass interiors, the manufacturer will provide you with that information. I'm not sure why some people think a homeowner is so stupid they can't find good products on their own.

    We buy things for our home all the time both online and in person at a store. We have never had missing parts. If by chance a part is missing or broken the manufacturer or business it is purchased from will take care of that quickly. Do some people honestly believe a builder or plumber doesn't sometimes get something broken or without a missing part?!

    We've bought Kohler, Moen, Italian design faucets, American Standard, Porcher, Hunter......never had a problem with parts. They arrive in the manufacturer's sealed box.

    I'm not getting where your GC is telling you horror stories about missing parts for so many things, because it just isn't so. We found our builder either marked things up quite a bit or got kickbacks. We've built 4 different homes over the years. We built three of them ourselves, much of the work done by us, including this last one. Tried a builder for one.

    We now hire a very hardworking and reputable local contractor for heavier jobs we are no longer able to handle ourselves. He likes when we buy the materials, and he provides the labor. He has a great attitude and work ethic. He's honest, gets the job done without running off to others, and stands behind his work.

    If your GC is telling you about delays and it costing you more money, recouping costs, "extra risks", you need to have a long talk with him. Now.

    Since you obviously can read and write, you are able to buy good faucets on your own. We actually had to re-do some shower plumbing a plumber had done incorrectly in our last house. We found there are a lot of people who claim they take responsibility but are nowhere to be found once paid in full.

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    A manufacturer will only give you limited information about a faucet and a homeowner must decipher it. For instance, brass construction is usually clearly stated but a die-cast zinc-alloy faucet will usually only be called "metal" now that faucets are made out of plastic.

    All you need to know after determining the material is that you should avoid plastic faucets at any price and avoid zinc if your water is hard.