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Comments (34)

  • worthy
    9 years ago

    A couple of neat "how not to" photos from the article.

  • ontariomom
    9 years ago

    Not boring at all. Very useful information. I have copied it into a link so more take the time to read.

    Carol

    Here is a link that might be useful: Window flashing link

  • _sophiewheeler
    9 years ago

    TFIC.

  • energy_rater_la
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    sexier...that wasn't sexy enough?
    I'll have to try again.

    thanks to worthy & onteriomom for
    'fixing' my link. appreciate it.

    and the laugh hollysprings.

  • mushcreek
    9 years ago

    Throughout designing, planning, and building my own home, many good-minded people have suggested that I should 'hire a professional'. I've lost count of the minor and major screw-ups by 'professionals' I see reported here and elsewhere. I ride around here in rural SC, and I can see mistakes and code violations just driving by new construction, without even stopping. I'll take my chances with my own 'amateur' work, thank-you very much. It's sad that a person has to learn all about building to ensure that the house they are paying to have built is, in fact, being built properly.

  • energy_rater_la
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    things like this forever change the way you look
    at homes under construction I find.

    there are good builders & crews out there,
    just as there are builders & crews who don't
    get it.

  • robin0919
    9 years ago

    The CODES need to be changed and enforced!!

  • Iowacommute
    9 years ago

    Thank you for posting Energy Rater. Window installation is one of the things that actually worry me the most about building a house. I've lived with poorly installed windows, cheap windows, and poorly installed cheap windows. Never again. Its a good thing I like to read manuals, and the installers are going to love me.

  • mushcreek
    9 years ago

    Inspections around here are a joke. I had an inspection for my basement slab, and then the next inspection was for rough framing, rough electric, and rough plumbing. In other words, I built an entire house and roughed in the electric and plumbing. The inspectors were here for 3 minutes- they didn't even shut off their truck! They have no idea how my windows were installed- or much of anything else, for that matter.

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    This is one of many ways to install a window and integrate it into one of many weather/air barrier systems. Frankly, I believe it to be the most difficult to install properly and the least effective for protecting a wall from water and air penetration. Even DuPont offers many better ones under the Tyvek brand name.

    I forbid the use of plastic wrap in my house specifications and require factory or field fluid-applied barriers. There are now some self-adhering membranes that are very interesting. The additional cost is cheap insurance.

  • energy_rater_la
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    mushcreek, you have unrealistic expectations of
    code inspections. they are ONLY to make sure that
    the legal minimum is met, and for safety issues only.

    while they may notice that the housewrap is wrong,
    or windows are not flashed, they are not there for
    that. it is beyond the scope of their profession.

    if you act aggressively towards the inspectors...
    they won't tell you anything. but if you are interested
    in what they are doing, you'll hear about the things
    that they see that are wrong.
    builders & tradespeople influence homeowner's
    attitude towards code inspectors, and usually in
    a negative way.

    the code inspectors I know will take the time
    to talk to the homeowner...if the homeowner
    acts in a way that invites the spending of that
    extra time.

    code inspectors have a lot of jobs to inspect daily.
    their schedule can be tight. I like the inspection to
    be around lunch time...cause I want to talk to them.

    another option is to hire an independent inspector.
    granted after a few builds you know stuff...but only
    a portion of the total things that comprise a build.
    15+ years in energy efficiency & I know my job...but
    it is the construction background/hvac education &
    building science expertise that sets me apart.
    and still....there is a lot I'll be the first to admit
    that I don't know.
    instead I've built up a network of experts in other
    fields that I can call on when needed.

    code inspectors have a lot of justices to pass
    & a lot of continuing education. I've been to a lot
    of their classes.

    and you, IowaCommute, are the person for whom
    the technical writers for products write. Okwriter
    a former member here was/is a tech writer. she often
    felt that no one was reading the install specs!
    I bring those things home & read them also.
    funny...they are on every window for a reason!

    take care y'all.

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    Installing the plastic wrap after installing the windows is one of Tyvek's approved installation methods and it is the method recommended by Grace Products makers of Vycor. I have worked with the people at Grace for 30 years and believe them to be the best at waterproofing detailing. I agree with them that it is better to stop the wrb at the windows than to wrap it into the openings creating a path for water to enter the opening behind the wrb.

    But I prefer factory or field fluid-applied membrane to plastic wrap so how these clumsy membranes are installed does not matter much to me.

    If I were to use either installation method for plastic wrap, I would flash the window openings before installing the windows.

    This post was edited by Renovator8 on Mon, Nov 24, 14 at 11:43

  • mushcreek
    9 years ago

    My inspectors have been very good about answering questions. I tend to ask them about the next inspection, rather than the one they are performing. I do a LOT of studying, so I know how things are supposed to be done, and I try to exceed code anyway, but it is good to know ahead of time what they expect. For instance, they wanted my DWV system tested with water, instead of air pressure, despite the fact that on previous inspections, air pressure was acceptable. It turned out that the rules had just been changed. I felt bad about them having to drive out again once I had it set up with water.

    Our local building department is overwhelmed with work. During the building slump, they cut back staff, and now that things are booming again, the county doesn't want to spend the money to rehire. I just worry about people who believe that their house is being built properly, when I know full well what goes on behind closed walls.

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    Building codes say almost nothing about window and wrb installation and flashing and what they do say is not at all useful as a design guide or standard. That has opened the door for manufacturers to have undue control over the matter.

    40 years ago window manufacturers would not comment or offer details on this matter for fear of being held responsible for window failures. Then DuPont started promoting Tyvek as an air barrier superior to asphalt saturated felt and offered installation detailing that involved taping the joints with red tape (later changed to match the membrane because it was too easy to see if a builder had installed it correctly). It did not catch on very quickly because asphalt felt was made with real cotton felt and heavily saturated with a high grade of asphalt so it was a cheaper and superior material. Unfortunately the heavily saturated asphalt thick cotton felts gradually became lightly saturated thin paper and called #15 instead of 15# because they were so much lighter.

    Reducing the quality of building paper and the easily identifiable trade mark opened the door for Tyvek to become a building standard. And they offered installation instructions that included flashing of the windows at about the same time that nailing fins replaced integral casing trim and full width sills on windows thanks in large part to Andersen's PVC wrapped wood frames.

    Unfortunately, DuPont didn't know any more about flashing than the window manufacturers but they learned pretty fast. So here we are with perhaps a dozen different standards for integrating nail fin windows in a plastic wrapped house envelope. All of these details ignore the holes in the wrap from countless staples and nails and also rely heavily on acrylic tape that was originally intended to maintain the air barrier but was eventually considered to be be resistant to water.

    I believe it is time to stop wrapping houses with plastic sheet and then trying to patch the holes. You won't find it done on commercial/institutional/multi-family buildings because the cost of more serviceable materials is thought to be worthwhile since the buildings will be owned by the same entity for decades compared to a house that is typically owned for 5 years.

  • backyardmomma
    9 years ago

    Renovator8- can you give some examples of the type of barrier you prefer to use? Wrap and window install is one on the list of things that I fear when we start our build. I'm Interested to look into your approach instead of Tyvek. After lurking for only a few months on this forum and learning just a limited amount, I can't drive by a new build without spotting a few wrap issues!

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    Factory applied fluid membrane:
    - Zip System Sheathing by Huber

    Field applied fluid membrane:
    - Tyvek Fluid Applied System by DuPont
    - StoGuard w/ Gold or Emerald Coat by Sto Corp.
    - Perm-A-Barrier VP by Grace Products
    - Air Bloc 31 by Henry Co.
    - Enviro-Dri by Tremco

    Here is a link that might be useful: housewrap in a can

  • energy_rater_la
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    interesting stuff that housewrap in a can.

  • sombreuil_mongrel
    9 years ago

    Any membrane eventually gets pierced by countless siding nails so what's the fuss?
    If there were an economic incentive to do so, they would start manufacturing 15# felt once again. Same for rock lath, buggy whip sockets, and solid wood doors.
    Casey

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    What the fuss is about is trying to avoid water passing through holes and taped seams and getting behind a loosely attached weather barrier. Why create a space in front of an organic material and hope that if it gets wet it will dry out before deteriorating? Why use a weather barrier that loses it's water resistance when in contact with surfactants? If you want to seal the envelope why not use a material that doesn't create so many problems?

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    It was not until the 50's when homes started to be better insulated that moisture control became a serious issue. In the 70's it became desirable to stop as much air flow as possible through the building envelope further complicating moisture control. Asphalt saturated felt (building paper) was no longer an adequate weather or air barrier solution and DuPont wisely jumped into the game with a "plastic air barrier" with a big trademark on it and elaborate installation instructions. But the engineers and marketing people at Du Pont wouldn't have known a weather barrier if bit them so their plastic membrane created as many problems as it solved.

    This problem was unique to homes because commercial/institutional/multi-family buildings were designed by professional consultants who were able to justify more expensive and better performing materials to owners who intended to own and profit from these properties for many decades. You will never see Tyvek HomeWrap or even CommercialWrap on an office building or a college dormitory.

    Energy costs have increased and houses have become so air tight and so expensive to build that it is time to adopt the materials and systems long proven to be more effective for moisture control and weather resistance instead of continuing to follow the lowest-common-denominator favored by home builders. It is time to say goodbye to the arcane cutting and taping of sheet membranes.

  • rollie
    9 years ago

    What is the perm rating of the wrb in a can?

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    Grace Perm-A-Barrier VP by Grace = 11.2 perms

    Enviro-Dri by Tremco = 12 perms

    Air-Bloc 31 MR by Henry Co = 21 perms

    Tyvek Fluid Applied WB by DuPont = 25 perms

    StoGuard Emerald Coat by Sto = 8.5 perms

    Huber's Zip system sheathing overlay = 12 to 16 perms

    OSB sheathing = 2 to 3 perms

  • kzim_gw
    9 years ago

    Reno:
    Excuse the lack of knowledge I have on this topic and have a few more questions since we have our footings poured and have not finalized this step in my mind. The builder specified Tyvek wrap.

    - In reference to your last post with the "perm" numbers. The lower the "perms" number the better it eliminates air and moisture penetration?

    -What sub applies this?

    -What is the cost or rather are these applications a lot more money then the wrap?
    Thank you,
    kzim

    This post was edited by kZim on Fri, Nov 28, 14 at 11:17

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    The lower the "perm" rating number, the SLOWER a membrane allows "water vapor" to pass through it.

    Liquid water and air should not pass through any weather/air barrier except at poorly sealed joints.

    Keep in mind that water vapor passes through OSB sheathing very slowly.

    These design issues should not be considered without factoring in the local climate.

    Carpenters usually install plastic wraps. Liquid-applied membranes can be applied by waterproofing contractors but anyone can apply it with a roller.

    The simplest approach is to substitute the Huber Zip sheathing system that is sealed with Zip tape.

  • robin0919
    9 years ago

    Reno....that Stogold coat seems like it would be 'very' expensive. You're basically painting the entire exterior of the house that would be covered up by the siding. What does that cost per sf on average?
    Installing Tyvec is included with the framing cost. This would be like hiring painters to do allllllllot of painting. It would seem to be on the extreme expensive side.

    This post was edited by robin0919 on Fri, Nov 28, 14 at 23:14

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    Tyvek is not cheap just because it doesn't appear as a line item in the project cost estimate.

    The un marked up cost of sub-contractor installed Tyvek for a 3,500 sf house with not too much envelope complexity in my area can be as much as $3,000. The national average is $.64 to $.98 per s.f. Then you need to add the cost of flashing the rough openings with self-adhering flexible flashing which could mean an additional $2,000 or more.

    The cost of liquid-applied WRB systems varies greatly by manufacturer but a reasonable budget for the above mentioned house might be $7,000. It helps to bid different systems with different contractors because the subs who are most familiar with them don't do much residential work.

    Liquid membranes are more expensive primarily because of the joint and rough opening sealing before the coating is applied. They are usually applied with a roller. The only one that only sells to licensed installers is DuPont.

    Making assumptions about the cost of any complex building system before doing the research necessary to change to a new system is what continues to keep the residential building industry so far behind the rest of the building industry. But the housing industry is huge so eventually as the demand rises the costs will come down.

    Here is a link that might be useful: cost of house wrap

    This post was edited by Renovator8 on Sat, Nov 29, 14 at 10:24

  • energy_rater_la
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    "Making assumptions about the cost of any complex building system before doing the research necessary to change to a new system is what continues to keep the residential building industry so far behind the rest of the building industry. "

    true. contractors will kick up a fuss about
    ANY change or new product, just on general
    principal. if they haven't been doing it for 25
    years...it must not work.

    in my small rural town, the family owned
    building supply establishments won't order
    "new" stuff like zip sheathing without full
    payment up front. not really a problem...but
    their pov is that they don't want the 'public'
    to see the stuff. lord forbid some pesky homeowner
    might want to use it & their
    contractor might have to learn something.

    this attitude isn't limited to building trades.
    here in the hot humid south where typical
    install is ductwork in the hottest part of the
    house, the attic,,,code is for R-6 ductwork.
    not R-8 like the rest of the country. R-6
    because the heat pump association's
    members don't want the change.
    it isn't that cost is the factor, yeah its
    a little more, but given the option most
    homeowners would gladly pay the upcharge.
    the hvac contractors just don't want to change.

    good discussion, thanks for your contributions
    everyone.

  • kzim_gw
    9 years ago

    Our GC is having our "stud bays filled" with spray foam. (Just found that out from hubby). Found a well done article with pictures that shows spraying the exterior framing. I am not sure if we are having it done as the article shows.
    So, I guess the Zip would be over kill.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Insulation with exterior spray foam

  • energy_rater_la
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    in what location are you building kzim?

    will house be blacked in & walls foamed from interior?
    or as shown in article linked?

    I always advise people to use foam sheathing on
    exterior, conventional insulation & air tight
    drywall approach to interior of walls.
    then foam insulate the roofline, where most
    heat loss/heat gain is from.

    shorter payback, better performance & much
    better use of monies.
    here in the south, a house with foam sealed walls
    (2500 sq ft) will have a payback of 25 years.
    wall as described above & foam in rafters
    will have a 10 year payback. its really a no
    brainer when you look at savings & costs.

    everyone likes to use the ice chest analogy.
    but if you have a foam ice chest & put a
    lid that isn't air tight...what have you done?
    not much.

    we build walls ok, it is the ceilings where we
    put dozens of IC (and not ICAT) recessed lights
    cut holes that are covered with supply grills,
    bath fan covers & trim kits of recessed lights.
    trades people cover holes, they don't seal them.

    then in the attic, we blow insulation over all these
    holes. no wonder homeowners complain of dust,
    poor iaq, high utility bills & lack of comfort.

    foam insulated rooflines is the best investment
    here in my area.
    you should take a look at building science's website.
    this article alone explains what comprises a perfect
    wall for all climates.
    save the money for foam for the area where
    it is needed most.

    http://www.buildingscience.com/documents/insights/bsi-001-the-perfect-wall/?searchterm=perfect%20wall

    best of luck

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    Now there's an expensive way to build a house! IMO there is no reason to build anything that complicated.

  • kzim_gw
    9 years ago

    energy_rater: I am near St. Louis. Zone 5. We are known for hot humid summers that can reach over 100 degree in July and cold winters that do get below 0 degrees in Feb.
    I have seen your recommendations before and was using that as my bible for what I wanted done. But the GC has his idea's also.

    I found our bid for insulation, it is a two part bid, this does not look to be spray insulation:
    Exterior Walls and Firewalls (2x6): R19 kraft faced batts
    Fire walls (2x4): R13 kraft faced batts
    Walk out walls: R19 unfaced batts
    Bandboards: R19 unfaced batts
    Ventilation baffles at Eaves
    Accessible ceiling: R38 blown fiberglass
    TOTAL FOR THE ABOVE:....... 2,700.00
    PLUS THESE ADDED OPTIONS:
    Upgrade attic to R49....$245
    Air Seal Caulk/Foam Package.....$195
    High Density Batt Option, Includes:
    ----R21 kraft faced batts in Exterior Walls & Firewalls(2x6)
    ----R15 kraft faced batts in Firewall (2x4)
    ----R21 unfaced batts in walk out walls
    ----R22 unfaced batts in Bandboards
    ----Air Seal Caulk/Foam Package.......Option total..$835.00
    Great room/kitchen vault......$150
    Sound walls with R13 kraft faced batts......(baths & laundry room areas)....$145
    Garage Package w/ R19 kraft faced batts in exterior walls; R30 blown fiberglass in ceiling......$985

    GRAND TOTAL FOR INSULATION costs for 2120 sq ft living space and 3 car garage......$5255.
    Side note:
    The condo, 1800 sq ft, we rented last winter, had a $500 electric bill one month. I think as a rule we had a monthly electric bill around $300. I think payback would add up quickly with those kind of bills.
    What are your thoughts?

  • energy_rater_la
    Original Author
    9 years ago

    you bid doesn't include foam insulation.
    doesn't look like anything special to me,
    aside from this:
    Air Seal Caulk/Foam Package.....$195

    to really air seal, it would be more than $195
    that much in caulk/materials alone.
    special products need to be used in certain
    areas for a long lasting seal. I'd not use
    foam in a can at all, but instead caulk &
    backer rods, and mastic tape. those
    are my go to items for air sealing.

    lots of reasons for utility bill to jump $200
    in a month, something as small as a
    bad element in a water heater can cause
    increase.

    not exactly sure what thoughts you are asking about.

  • renovator8
    9 years ago

    To design a wall system you should consider all of the elements so you should describe all of the materials including sheathing, exterior cladding and interior finish.

    If there is any HVAC equipment or ducts in the attic it should be included in the conditioned envelope of the house.

    There is no reason to use a vapor retarder (kraft paper) on sound insulation.

    I can't think of a reason to build a fire wall in a single family house. The separation wall at an attached garage is no more than a smoke barrier even if the door panel is rated. Did you get permission to build unusually close to a property line?

    Your contractor's descriptions seem to be from the 60's and so are his prices. He needs to investigate different approaches to energy conservation like dense-pack cellulose, exterior foam board and/or different kinds of spray foam.