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anniedeighnaugh

Building design considerations

Annie Deighnaugh
9 years ago

When we built, we tried to build for some accessibility issues. There are wider doors on the bedroom and bathroom, there's a large enough turning circle in front of the Mbath toilet for a wheel chair, the space between the island and the counters in the kitchen is wide enough for wheel chair and we have one-floor living.

Four years into living here and now I'm glad we did all of that. Very glad. I broke my ankle hiking in the woods on Sunday and now I'm 4-6 weeks of no weight bearing on the left leg. Crutches are hard for me so the wheel chair is the way to go. Getting around has been so easy, I'm so thankful. But the one thing we didn't do was put the wider door on the PR which is near the FR, so I have to wheel to the doorway and crutch my way in.

So for those of you designing your homes, remember you don't have to be old to get infirmed, accessibility is everyone's issue, and a little preplanning will make life so much easier when infirmity comes your way. And don't forget about the PR door!
;)

Comments (37)

  • girlguineapig
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a timely reminder. What would you recommend for hall and door widths?

  • mrspete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a wide-open question, but I'd be interested to hear what specific details have worked well for you /what you'd skip.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our view was to design a house to accommodate some infirmity, but we figured we wouldn't be living here any more if we were no longer ambulatory.

    What I'd do differently: wider PR door, wider walk-in closet door..I can't get into my closet either. Also, some miscommunication led to a higher than desired vanity in the mbath which I dislike under normal circumstances, but esp now in a wheel chair it is very awkward.

    I already mentioned some of the things we did that we like. Having the room to turn the wheelchair in front of the mbath toilet is wonderful. Not sure what folks with WCs will do in these instances. We left space in our dressing area to put in a residential lift, but chose to save the money while we were building, so the opportunity is there, but we never executed on it. But the rooms downstairs are nonessential so we can live on one floor just fine. (Except, as DH reminded me, I have to get downstairs to water the plants!) We added a ramp up the side of the house to the deck in the back so access to the house is much easier and we've already used that for some of our elderly friends for whom walking is an issue. We love levers over knobs and use them often when our hands are full. So glad that the mason eased the edge of the stone hearth under the woodstove. If he hadn't I'd not be able to get by there in the chair...in addition to it being a toe-banger.

    We argued with curbed vs. curbless shower and ended up with a curbed one, so now getting onto the bench in the shower is a challenge, but the handheld shower next to the bench is very helpful. But I don't think I'd like curbless...used one at the gym all the time and the floor was always wet, a real slip hazard easily leading to a broken ankle. Though the handle to turn on the handheld is opposite the bench with the regular shower control instead of by the bench where it should be...that was a mistake.

    I find the french door fridge hard to operate from the chair, esp to get at the bottom drawer for which both doors must be open...chair gets in the way. But I don't think I'd change that choice for a temporary infirmity...I like it a lot under normal circumstances.

  • snuffycuts99
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Great post...you made some great design choices based on accessibility concerns. We are currently building. I use a wheelchair full time and we designed our home accordingly. 36" doors throughout the first floor. 32" doors on the second floor with the kid's bedrooms. We chose to do a 2 story with an elevator. We carefully limited hallways and went with a very open floor plan. The hallways that were necessary are all 4' wide. Some would suggest 5' wide hallways, but I can manage a turn in 4'. ADA is 5' for turning radius. It is definitely wise to have 5' between the counter and island in the kitchen.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    dreamer16, one frustration I have is the size of the chair. I know they've made chairs super sized for the growing American obesity epidemic, but I would be so much happier if the chair I'm in were 6" or even 4" narrower. My hips are not that large and I'd so appreciate the increased maneuverability.

    But my situation is thankfully a temporary one, and I will make do with what I have.

  • energy_rater_la
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    glad that your use of the wheelchair & crutches is a limited time!

    thanks for taking the time to share your
    experiences with us.

    Happy Thanksgiving!

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you energy-rater, same to you!

  • jdez
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Annie - sorry to hear about your limited mobility right here at the holidays. I hope you recover quickly and completely.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you JDez. Me too!

  • Oaktown
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ugh, tough time to have an injury ... wishing you a speedy recovery. Hopefully all better by 2015!

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks, oaktown!

  • ontariomom
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Annie,

    I am so sorry to hear you are injured. I broke my foot 4 years ago in November, and it was tough to get around the house and especially the mall to do Xmas shopping!

    Thank you sharing your insights regarding accessibility design. Your post on your shower design and the bench/handheld location not being right concerned me. I keep telling my husband who is completing the build himself that I don't want him to complete the plumbing rough-in in our master shower as I worry I too will have regrets if one of us breaks a leg or has future temporary mobility issues. If we have longer term mobility issues we will move into our main level. So, I am trying to plan for things like broken bones and wishing not to have any regrets like you.

    Would you be able to critique my shower plan and how it might work or not work for say a broken bone situation? I show my controls near the door. Perhaps we could have one control for the rain head near the door and another control for the hand help nearer to the bench?

    Carol

    P.S. I do hope you won't mind a thread deviation and will see it as tying into your original topic.

  • Jackie Kennedy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    WOW AnnieDeighnaugh....I'm so sorry to hear about your ankle. I pray for a quick and full recovery and safety as winter is approaching. Your foresight really hits home for me. We are in the midst of our build and part of what we added was an in-law suite with wider doorways, etc. That led us to make certain all areas even the 2nd floor were at least somewhat accommodating. I have to ask......what does PR mean?

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you for your well wishes OntarioMom and jaysgrl.

    PR=Powder room

    Ontario, a few things I've discovered re bath design. Doors are not your friend. If you can live without doors on the WC or put in a pocket door, the better you are. Our pot is behind the shower, but open with a large enough space to turn the wheel chair completely around. It is so nice to do that as I can wheel up to the pot and transfer back and forth easily, and then wheel my way out. If you have a door there, I'm not sure how that would work unless the WC was wide enough.

    I also have to back into the bathroom as the edge between the marble sill and the carpeted floor outside is sharp enough that the small wheels won't go over it first. DH is talking about adding a small board there temporarily to make a step. Though I'm getting better at backing in.

    The other thing that I find helps is the bench in our shower is right inside the door. So as I get out of the chair onto my good leg inside the shower, I can just pivot and sit. Same thing getting out....I can just pivot on one leg and then sit in the chair. I'd be very nervous about walking in the shower any distance, esp after the shower when the tile is wet. It might be different if you are planning on curbless shower.

    Also, our shower door swings both ways, in and out, so out and we can reach in to turn on the water. In for after the shower when you want the stall to dry, but don't want the door in the way. You want to make sure you can reach the controls without getting wet.

    As an aside, I see you have room between your sinks as did we. We put in a column which we really like...it's our "medicine chest". But what we really like is the appliance garage with the outlet inside where we put shared appliances like our water pik and electric toothbrushes. The door lifts so we have easy access from either sink.

  • ontariomom
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thank you ever so much Annie for taking the time to comment on my bathroom with an eye towards temporary mobility issues. You have given me many ideas to consider further (i.e. the pocket door on the WC vs the swing door). We are planning on a swing in/swing out shower door as suggested and our vanities have been ordered with two towers and appliance garage too:)

    As per the shower, I totally agree with your thoughts on the bench being right near the shower door. That was what I instinctively thought too, but that idea was taken off the table by a some GW posters who saw my bath design and one designer. I am going to look again at it though in light of your comments and I do think the bench by the door is best for safety.

    Carol

  • Jackie Kennedy
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    D'oh....powder room lol I was having a slow moment. Thx.

    I love your vanity. We designed a tower between our vanities as well, but I didn't think to have an outlet installed....RATS....sure wish I had talked to you sooner, but we've already had our electrical walk thru and we're drywalled. :-))

  • ontariomom
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Is this shower design any better Annie?

    Again thanks and sorry for redirecting the thread a bit.

    Carol

    This post was edited by OntarioMom on Sat, Nov 29, 14 at 22:17

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Yes, I think that's better.
    I'd put the valve control for the rain shower head on the wall that backs to the sink, and the valve control for the hand held on the wall by the hand held.

    If the door swings out, you should be able to reach in and turn on the rain shower head.

    For the handheld, you can sit and direct the spray away from you until the water warms up so the controls can be right there.

    IAC, on the WC, you don't want an inswing door because, should someone fall or pass out on the pot, his/her body will block the door and you won't be able to get in to help him/her.

  • mrspete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've always agreed that doors aren't your friend in a bathroom, and I greatly dislike the new trend towards "overly compartmentalized" bathrooms. Not only are they difficult for mobility issues, they cut out natural light, they force you to make the bathroom larger (and, thus, more costly), and a bathroom with JUST a sink and a bunch of doors looks . . . odd.

    As for people falling against the door and blocking it closed, I've always thought that fear was over-exaggerated on this website; however, if you're worried about it, eliminating doors is better than fussing over their swing.

    Something that hasn't been brought up: Hand rails. I'm not elderly or infirm, but I have them in my shower. I'm definitely installing them in my new house when we build -- not only in the shower, but also by the toilet. Thing is, you don't need hand rails -- until you need hand rails! I mean, none of us are going to receive a notice in the mail: In six months time, you will have an accident and need help in the bathroom -- better make an appointment with your handy man today! And if you install them quickly when you need them, your expensive tile work may be messed up, or even ripped out. It's better to plan hand rails and put them in while you're building. You can get a style that doesn't look so very . . . industrial.

    If you just don't want them yet, at least have your builder install SOLID plywood behind your tile at the right levels for hand rails; the thought being, obviously, that when you DO need them, you won't have to rip out the tile to have them installed on something solid.

    Ontario Mom, I think I'd want the shower head on the "back wall" -- that is, the wall that's in line with the sink wall. First, it'd be simple to continue the plumbing lines down just a little farther. Second, it'd mean your shower head would be spraying in the "long direction" and not towards the door. It just makes sense that way. However, I'd want the controls by the door. This would mean you could reach in and turn on the spray, but you wouldn't have your body in the water yet.

    As for the bench, I'd go with a moveable stool. It's so much more versatile: If you want to be IN the spray, you could pull the stool down towards the end of the shower. If you don't want the stool, tuck it out of the way by the door. If you're washing a sick person's (or a child's) hair, you can put the stool just where you want it and stand behind it. If you later need a large, hospital-type stool, you can switch it out. I'd absolutely rather have a stool than a built-in bench.

    Last thought on your shower: If you want to go "doorless", you have the space here, and I see no downside. You'll need a trough or infinity drain. I've been investigating these lately. They're long, narrow drains that you place on the edge of the shower (so you'd have no central drain).

    Finally, ending with a question and a comment:

    Question: Assuming you're building with an eye towards aging and possible injuries, but you still want a tub . . . is a tub dropped into a deck easiest for an elderly person to manage? I'm thinking sit down on the edge, swing your legs over -- easier, say, than a claw foot tub. But I don't know whether my thinking is correct or not.

    And a comment: This is a small thing, but last year I replaced the faucets in my girls' bathroom . . . and although I love the look, they're so hard to clean. The faucet is set on a little chrome pedestal, and the spout and two handles are set so close together that you have to turn your cleaning cloth "sideways" and kind of "floss" between the items. When we build, I'm definitely going with a "wide set" faucet that eliminates the little pedestal and spreads the items out a bit.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    From experience with older folks, the issue with tubs is not getting in...it's getting out. If they aren't strong or flexible enough to get their feet under them and lift, they will struggle to get out of a tub. For those with tub/shower combos, the other consideration is the width of the transfer benches which is a relatively easy way of getting in and out of the tub area...you don't want the tub deck too wide to put a bench there.

  • lazy_gardens
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Good discussion.

    After the SO's busted leg experience in a totally non-accessible house (tub and sunken tub!) we got pro-active with the grab bars and things. He could actually use the toilet easily with his Achilles tendon problem and his new knee.

    The dream house plans now include fully accessible EVERYTHING!

    Annie - can they get you a "knee scooter". Far more mobility than a wheelchair.

  • ontariomom
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Annie and Mrs Pete for your ideas and thoughts on my shower. I appreciate your comments.

    As per the grab bars and lumber backing, we needed 2 X 10s or 2 X 8s turned on edge. Plywood would not have passed code. All news baths in our area must be grab bar ready. We plan to put one in right away in some spots as mentioned by Mrs. Pete.

    Carol

  • LE
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Re exiting the tub. We're putting in a vertical bar that I learned is called an "assist bar." It's only 12" (Kohler Purist), but comes in 18, 24, 30, etc. It isn't installed yet, so no pix, but even now, I can get so relaxed after soaking that I could use something to help haul myself out!

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks lazygardens, my knee walker should arrive on Wed. I'm looking forward to it!

  • Joe
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Annie,
    Sorry to learn about your incident. The only good news is that you've gone through rehab before and you understand it's importance.

    Having worked for a large senior living organization serving the affluent in Chicago, the focus on universal access is vital. Although in our mid 50s when we built, we installed the following:

    Master shower - 9 feet long x 4 feet wide. 2 doorless/curbless entry/exit points. Installed 15 inch grab bar, reachable when standing outside the shower, and long handheld shower bar also serves as grab bar. 3, 2 x 4s laid side by side lengthwise served as backing. Moveable teak bench.

    Master commode closet. 12 inch grab bar installed on angle. Ensure you do a test grasp before installation.

    Guest shower - installed grab bar accessible to grasp before stepping over shower curb. Grab bar installed on angle near toilet.

    With millions of boomers in the aging pipeline, major vendors now offer numerous universal access items which match bath fixtures. Much improved look over the huge vertical and horizontal jointed industrial bars.

    ~bgj

  • lookintomyeyes83
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dreamer16 and AnnieDeighnaugh - is there a way on this board to private message you? I'd love your input on my current house plan, which is designed to be accessible.

    Please let me know.

  • snuffycuts99
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've never done it...but it looks like you would click on our user name, and then click send an email. I'd be happy to provide info along with my floor plan.

  • mrspete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    BillyGoatJoe, I'd love to see a picture -- or a blueprint type drawing -- of your shower. Sounds like you really did it right.

  • Annie Deighnaugh
    Original Author
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Sorry, I don't pm. Besides, I'm not an expert on these issues, only wanted to share what I've learned from my current situation.

  • bpath
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Here's one: what about the trash and recycling? Now that only one of my parents drives, they have an empty garage bay, and thank goodness. The garage is big to begin with; with two cars parked in there, you could still open all the car doors at the same time. There is a 5' "ledge" around the perimeter, one step down to the bays. (Can't tell you how nice this is for keeping stuff clean) The new bins required by their town are big. So, now they can keep the cans accessible to the house door. Because the cans are on the bay floor, that extra few inches of height on the ledge means M&D don't have to reach so high to drop the bags in.

    (I wonder if the bigger bins are affecting new garage sizes?)

    They do have to step down to get to the car. We could put in a ramp if that's ever necessary. They have a long driveway so Daad drives to get the Mail at the roadside. We're considering a golf cart, but not so good in winter.

    Even little things like garage design are important! You may not be able to walk, but you can drive.

  • snuffycuts99
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Garage design is really important. We designed our garage so it's at the same level as the house...no steps at all. Some of the subs are worried about water getting into the house, but hopefully the concrete is sloped sufficiently to the drains.

  • lookintomyeyes83
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    For those people who keep recommending pocket doors as an accessible option, I have a few questions:
    1) does the door let light spill underneath? That would be a deal-breaker for me for an ensuite bath - the light would wake me up if hubby went to use the bathroom.
    2) don't the doors slam? Again, noisy == bad.
    3) I was reading 'The Accessible Home' and it specifically notes that for pocket doors, its recommended to frame extra-wide, as standard doorhandles/grips for pocket doors are to shallow and difficult for many users to use.

  • Oaktown
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Naween, we have a few pocket doors in our house.

    >>1) does the door let light spill underneath?

    Our pocket doors are undercut the same as the regular doors.

    >>2) don't the doors slam? Again, noisy == bad.

    Nope. This is one of the things I like about pocket doors, the kids cannot slam them! In our old house, the pocket door made some noise unless one was careful, but the doors in this house are basically silent. Definitely quieter than someone getting out of bed.

    >>3) I was reading 'The Accessible Home' and it specifically notes that for pocket doors, its recommended to frame extra-wide, as standard doorhandles/grips for pocket doors are to shallow and difficult for many users to use.

    Yes, I think you might want some special hardware if someone has limited hand mobility/strength. But, we have had a 5 year old and an 80+ year old use our pocket doors with no problems.

  • Joe
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Apologies MrsPete. Just got the new iPhone and still recreating my 'life', tee hee. Unfortunately the SIM cards are a different size. Must load from Cloud.
    Photos soon I hope.

  • mrspete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Garage thoughts, mostly based upon having cared for my grandmother, who died weeks short of turning 100:

    I suggest you go with ONE large garage door instead of two smaller ones. As someone else said, it's likely that by the time you and your spouse are elderly, you'll have dropped down to one car anyway . . . and with one door you can park in the middle of the garage, allowing for a very wide berth as you exit the car. With a walker or with a family member helping you out, that extra space could be useful.

    Actually, my husband and I plan to downsize to one car shortly after we retire. We were a one-car family for the first 3-4 years of our marriage, and when circumstances forced us to add a second car, it was a blow to our budget! Sure, we can easily afford it now, but a second car in retirement won't be a necessity, and I can find better uses for that money!

    I know that this board tends to lean towards "garage on the side of the house" . . . but I think my grandmother's front-facing garage was better for her as she aged. Our county has a small bus that'll come around to pick up the elderly and take them to the Walmart shopping complex, the doctor, and probably other places -- you just have to call and schedule a day ahead of time. She was ashamed of how slow she was leaving the house . . . but if she knew her ride was coming at 10:00, she could take her time getting out of the house and into the garage, lock the door, and sit down in her garage chair to wait. When the driver pulled up, he'd see her waiting in the garage, help her (and her walker) board the bus, and then she'd close the door with her garage clicker, which she'd have in her tote bag. This made her feel more "in control" in front of the driver and other passengers on the bus.

    Yes, as she grew older, my grandmother started keeping her trash and recycling inside her garage. She walked well on flat surfaces, but she had difficulty negotiating uneven terrain. Once she passed 90 (she lived alone), my mother called the trash people and explained that she simply couldn't get the cans to the curb . . . and the trash people were very accommodating: My grandmother made sure that the garage door was raised on trash day, and the trash people came in /wheeled her can to the curb /returned it to the garage.

    Avoiding steps in the garage should be a major priority. I'd be willing to install extra drains /slope the garage a bit /whatever else to make this happen.

    My grandmother had one step up from her garage to her house, and she had a vertical assist bar right next to the back door. I can't tell you how much good that bar did her.

    She also had TWO walkers. One was her "indoor walker". It had smaller wheels and was a little nicer. Then she had her "outdoor walker", which had larger wheels and could manage outdoor terrain a bit better -- and it lived in the garage. She never had to fight with getting the walker in /out of the house; rather, when she went into the garage, she'd start using the outside walker. Woe to the great grandchild who moved the outdoor walker away from the door; it had to sit RIGHT THERE, even though it was in everyone else's way. When she went somewhere in the car, one of us was always along anyway, and we wrestled the walker into the trunk.

  • mrspete
    9 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I've had pocket doors in 50% of the houses in which I've lived in my four and a half decades, so I can comment on them:

    - They are more difficult to open than a traditional door. Mind you, I'm not saying, "Wow, this is tough!" Rather, I'm saying that on a scale of 1-10, a traditional door is a 1 in terms of opening -- it's very easy. Toddlers learn to do it quickly. A pocket door is a 2 or 3. If the door is pushed all the way into its socket, you do have to know to push the little thingy and make the pull-latch pop up . . . but it's still easy to open.

    - Having said that, you wouldn't want a pocket door on a door that you open multiple times a day. Pocket doors are for those spaces where you want the ability to close off the room . . . but you're not going to do it 90% of the time. A pocket door is perfect for the laundry room that you want to close off ONLY when you have company. You should never use a pocket door on a bedroom or a bathroom; it would be a big mistake.

    - You can "pocket" any door, but usually people go with lighter doors for this purpose. A heavier door (or a door containing glass) will put more pressure on the hardware, which -- being a moving component -- will eventually break.

    - I've only had ONE pocket door ever break, and -- ironically -- it was one that was used very, very seldom: The door between my den and dining room. We tried our best to fix it, were unable to do so . . . and it sat there broken for the better part of two years ANNOYING ME! Finally I hired a handyman to come fix some half-dozen things around the house, that door being one of them. He worked on it a solid hour, and the materials to fix it were $45. It wasn't all that big a deal to fix; I wish I'd called someone earlier.