2ND FLOOR. My biggest issue here is we plan on putting 2 kids in the back room, but closet space is tight. I also don't like seeing the bathroom straight ahead when coming up the stairs. Any ideas??

Your biggest problem is that you are wasting space with 2 or more spaces devoted to the same function. Small homes cannot affrord that luxury. Better to have one well designed and versatile eating area and living area than several poorly designed ones. Rethink your space prioritization.

I somewhat agree with Holly Springs' assessment that a house this small can't afford duplicate spaces. To expand upon that thought:

- I'd keep the "front door living space" just as it is: It's small, and the staircase separates it from the bulk of the main living area; thus, it'll be a quiet space. With four children, I think you'll appreciate having a small, set-apart space where you can have some adult time, or one child can go to have a guest over. Does this space have a door? Perhaps a pocket door? I think you'd definitely want acoustical privacy in this room, so a door is a must.

- But I'm seeing the "back living space" as your main family-gathering area, and it's essentially the same size as the front area. A family of six would be cramped in this area. I'd absolutely lose one of the eating areas so this space can be enlarged. To be perfectly honest, I don't think the one in the kitchen works anyway: The table is much too close to the back door.

- Another space you can cut to gain square footage for this important "back living space" is the staircase. While the one you're showing is lovely and grand, it's a huge space hog . . . and in, in the end, living space is vastly more important than a showstopper staircase and a large entryway. I'd consider a smaller stair, perhaps turned the other direction . . . and I'd consider having the staircase open to the dining room.

Okay, leaving the concept of duplicate spaces, on to other thoughts:

- No, I do not share your concern about the bathroom directly ahead of the front door. While it IS in the sight line, it's more than a room away, and you've wisely scooted the door to the right. However, if you continue to worry over it, open the door towards the other side; that is, open it towards the back door rather than the front door.

- Note that the secondary upstairs bath has a problem with doors banging against one another. This bath isn't large enough to support the "divided bath" concept, and two kids can share one bath without problems. I'd skip the second sink so you could afford a linen tower -- otherwise, this bath has no storage (note that the two sinks mean you won't even have drawers). If you're set on a "divided bath", I'd give up the back bath and make one really large kids' bath to be shared among all 3-4 (and that I would divide).

- If you intend the back bedroom to one day be shared by two kids, I'd steal some space from the other two bedrooms and make that back room larger. You've drawn in double beds for the kids -- twins are fine for kids, and they're easier for them to make up by themselves. If the kids have small rooms, I'd consider building them lofts (with beds up /dressers or desks down) once they're old enough to manage such things.

- I think the biggest issue with the back bedroom is the lack of closet space. Good closets are totally the key to keeping kids' rooms clean -- and that's the groundwork for teaching them to do housework in the future. If you were to lose the dedicated bathroom in this bedroom (and enlarge the kids' hall bathroom), you could have a nice walk-in closet that would be nice for two kids to share.

- While the "entry halls" provide privacy for the master and the back bedroom, they may also cause you problems in moving in furniture. The back bedroom looks much worse than the master.

- Is that a private sitting space across from the bed in the master? I'm not sure you can "afford" that in a house this size. I'd consider making this area the closet . . . so that you'd have adequate space for that last bedroom, the one that's to house two children.

- Your plumbing is spread across the whole house. This is an expensive choice, and it means that you'll have longer plumbing lines spread across the house . . . meaning a greater chance of leaks or other plumbing issues later. I don't know that you can completely FIX this problem, but you could flip the master bath and closet . . . and also flip one kids' bedroom and the upstairs secondary bath, which would at least give you ONE set of baths that back up to one another.

- You show only one car -- I'm assuming you're a city family and only have one? What about guest parking?

- Where's your laundry room?

- Your windows are great.

This post was edited by MrsPete on Sun, Oct 12, 14 at 12:11

Here's one way to deal with it ... by moving the stairs outside the "envelope" they got a better traffic flow and more light. It's a more open plan that you say you want, but it's got some good ideas, and it would probably work with your narrow lot

https://www.houzz.com/photos/houzz-tour-constraints-guide-a-farmhouse-style-floor-plan-phvw-vp~17108259

Your foyer is chewing up a huge amount of space. Those hallways are also chewing up space.

I count four (rear room, kitchen, island, dining room) eating areas. Do you really need that many? Unless your lifestyle actually includes formal meals and entertaining, I would eliminate the dining room and make the rear media room and the kitchen eating area roomier.

The master suite is about 25% of the floor plan? With a closet almost as big as the bedroom planned for two children? Does that space actually match your needs or is it a case of Pinterest lust and a checklist of "things I want in my dream house"?

Consider this kind of shared bathroom for saving space, with pocket doors instead of swinging.

This one, with the hall entry, works as a guest-accessible toilet.

Or this, with two toilet/sink compartments and a shared bathing area. I like these because it eliminates the "get out of the shower, I have to pee" shrieks and door pounding.

I'm fuzzy on where the stairs are ... is it a split flight from upstairs?

thank you ALL for your suggestions. I am going to sit and digest it all with my husband and make some changes.

Does anyone know of a simple program I can download where I can play around with room layouts and floor plans? My architect takes weeks to make a measly change. There are also instances where I need to see 2 different options on paper, but don't want to waste time waiting for him to do it.

Draw it out on paper (simple graph paper will do).

I am in the same camp of, you can't afford the space on a separate HUGE dressing room for the master when you want to cram 2 kids in the back bedroom. Your master is sufficient for bedroom and closet in the one space. Allocate the dressing area as another bedroom, if needed.

Try floorplanner.com. Just be sure to measure the furniture you have now or some you have seen and apply it to the dimensions on there. Some of them are close, some of them are off. I use Ikea/Pottery Barn/Rooms to go to confirm average twin size beds, etc.

Does anyone know of a simple program I can download where I can play around with room layouts and floor plans?

Anything that can draw with dimensions. I've done garden plans with Power point before.

Start with a known size of furniture and then add recommended moving-around space to it and you will end up with your minimum required size for "X".

Make a bunch of blocks for each area ... master bedroom bed area, kitchen appliances with clearances, tables with chairs and clearance, laundry appliances, stair runs (straight and with a landing), bath fixtures with access clearance, etc. and start laying them out like a puzzle on a piece of paper marked with the lot size with the required set-backs subtracted.

It's like paper dolls!

Our entire "dream house" plan started with the calculations for what it would take to have a CalKing bed placed with a good view of the sunrise out a french door or window for the master bedroom. That quickly led to a lot of connected decisions, such as having a "walk-through" closet behind the head of the bed, built-in storage and bookcases on either side of the bed ... it avalanched from there, and somehow the bed size ended up making my pantry the size it will be.

But without making the blocks and the minimal spacing, we'd never have gone anywhere.

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One design you might experiment with is making the children's sleeping areas TINY - just a bed and closet - with a common area for playing and toy storage. Like the old-style "nursery" with sleeping rooms attached.

http://www.pinterest.com/pin/210754457532753700/ is one example

What are your lot's setback requirements? And what is built on the lots to the left and right of yours? How far away are those buildings? And which direction does the front door face? All those windows you have downstairs look wonderful on paper but, if you're going to have another house 6 to 8 feet away from the windows, that building may shade your windows (particularly at the first floor level) throughout so much of the day that you never get much natural light anyway. Plus you'll probably have to keep the windows curtained all of the time in order to have a modicum of privacy. Before you spend a whole lot of money on lots of big windows, make sure that you'll get light and/or a view through them.

I have to agree with previous posters... in a smallish house, it doesn't makes sense to have two dining areas (Plus bar seating PLUS what I assume is a game table in the family room) UNLESS you expect to use both dining areas on a very regular basis. Given the size of the table in the formal dining room, I suspect that you're envisioning big family gatherings for Christmas and Thanksgiving. But, does it make sense to dedicate such a HUGE amount of space to an event that happens only a couple of times per year? It might be better to design a single dining area that can be used on a daily basis by family and that can expand outward into a nearby hallway when you want to stretch the table out to serve a crowd.

Additionally, with 4 kids, it makes sense to me to want two living areas...one where the kids can scatter their toys when they're little and hang out with their friends when they get a little older, and one that can be kept looking very nice for adult company... An old fashioned "parlor" if you will. But with two living areas, why would you also want to have space in the master bedroom for what I can only assume is an "owner's retreat" area? Especially when you're so crowded for space that you need to put two kids into a rather small bedroom with limited closet space?

Honestly, I have no problem with kids sharing a bedroom. We moved around a lot when I was growing up. There were 4 of us kids (3 boys and me) and my folks typically would rent a 3 bedroom /1 bath house. Four bedroom places were only found in the ritziest parts of town back then...not on our side of the tracks. From the time he was born when I was 11 until my oldest brother went into the Navy when I was 16, I shared a bedroom my baby brother. But mom and dad always insisted that baby brother and I got the biggest bedroom so that he could have room to play without totally infringing on my "girl space." My two other brothers shared the medium bedroom and mom and dad always squeezed into the smallest bedroom even when it was only 10 x 10. Mom always said "your father and I CHOSE to be room-mates so we ought to be able to live amicably in close quarters. You didn't choose to have to share your room with a baby brother." Their choice to sacrifice the largest room in my favor made it impossible for me to feel bad about having to share.

I realize that few parents are as selfless as my folks always were but still, something seems a bit out of kilter to me when a bedroom that will be shared by two children is less than half the square footage set aside for mom and dad's closet/bathroom/owner's retreat area/and hallway desk/vanity. REALLY, are you ever going to sit in that space behind the wall in the master bedroom?

When they want to get some quiet time away from the kiddos, most of the mothers I know want to go lie down or sink into a nice hot bubble bath! Not just sit. LOL! And even if you did want to just sit quietly, is there some reason you couldn't use the parlor? Plus, even without that space behind the wall, your master bedroom looks plenty big enough for a couple of comfy easy chairs...which would probably NEVER get used.

Maybe I am misinterpreting your intentions with regard to the space behind the wall in the masterbedroom. Maybe it is meant to be an office or a sewing room or something like that. But, if so, it seems like it would be better to have the office where the closet is and vice-versa. That way a future owner could easily re-purpose the space as an additional bedroom, as a study room for teens, as a nursery, as a family exercise room, etc.

What I believe you and your would get MUCH more use out of would be a larger family room. Most families really need someplace big enough for an entire family to stretch out comfortably. When your little ones turn into teens, you'll be amazed at how much space they seem to take up when they're sprawled out across the floor... especially if they have a couple of buddies over to work on a school project.

BTW, if you're planning to have two kids share one of the bedrooms while the other two kids each get a room of their own, then shouldn't the shared bedroom be the largest of the three bedrooms? On your floorplan, it looks like the back bedroom is actually a bit smaller than the other two bedrooms. At the very least, you might want to look into shrinking each of the other two bedrooms a little bit in order to increase the size of the shared room. Plus, if you ever sell, a larger back bedroom with it's own bathroom could be viewed as a second master bedroom suite.

I don't see a laundry room anywhere! Did that get overlooked by your architect? Or will there be a basement? And, where does that second set of stairs I see on the 2nd floor plan go? Is there any useable living space in the attic?

You are going to have to squeeze past your kitchen table to get in/out of that "side door". If I'm reading your plans correctly, you will have patio doors leading to the uncovered side porch. Why bother with that out-swinging door at all? It just takes a big bite out of your family room for no particularly good purpose.

Also, in your area, are you allowed to have exterior doors that open outward? Not all building codes will allow outswinging exterior doors. And even if allowed, do you really want an outward swinging door that is not protected by a good porch roof? If opened when it rains, the inside of the door and it's edges will get wet which could lead to warping.

Are you really a one-car family? Do you expect to remain a one-car family when your kids reach driving age? Where will you park extra cars?

While they are small, where will your children play outdoors? If they play on the back patio, will you be able to keep an eye on them while working in the kitchen. Do you have a spot to store things like bicycles, scooters, the baby strollers, etc.

Finally, assuming you don't want to do a major overhaul of the existing plan, here are a couple of tweaks that might address some of the things you mentioned not liking about the current plan...

Upstairs, move the back bathroom to the right side of the house so that you enter the bedroom first. Then, open the bathroom directly off the bedroom. Since the only people who will be using that bathroom are the two kids that will be sharing the back bedroom, there is no point in wasting 20 to 30 sq ft of space on a hallway whose only purpose it to make it possible to walk around the bathroom and closet to reach the bedroom. That would get rid of the "bathroom at the top of the stairs" problem.

Downstairs, do you really need the cabinetry that currently warps around the outside of the powder room? If not, swap the location of the powder room and pantry. Put the pantry door so that it faces the kitchen. Then, put the wet bar that it looks like you now have beside the current pantry next to the new pantry so that when you enter the front door, what you see at the end of the hall is the wet bar. I think you have enough space where you currently have the pantry and wet bar, to fit both a powder room and a short hallway with a closet.

Then, if you want a swinging exterior door on the side of the house, move it forward to a position about even with the back wall of the dining room. And plan on covering at least a small section of the side porch to protect that out-swinging door.

Here's a quick sketch of the changes I'm talking about on the first floor level...

My complaint about this plan is the amount of space lost in the foyer and hallway along side the house. This area appears to be about as large as the dining room. Can a house of this size and for a family of 6 afford to have this much space inefficiently used?

I'm not sure I have a solution but hear me out. What about moving the dining room up next to the formal living area and turning it 90 degrees. The table can expand the width of the house if needed. Move the stairs either between the dr and kitchen or behind the kitchen out of the family room. This would now allow the master closet to move to the left side of master suite. Doing this would perhaps make this area more efficient with the closet across from the bathroom. Now the space where the large master closet was can be allocated to the stairs and the kids area.

I do like how bevangel moved things around on the main floor.

Have you looked at Sarah Susankah homes? Here is one I saw a year or two ago, a narrow infill lot. This one has a garage off an alley which you may not have, but look how she made use of the space above the garage for a garden. There's also a side-ish entry that is still easy access to the street.

Just my opinion, but your children could live with one bathroom, given that there's a powder room and a master besides. And it's one less for you to clean :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Sarah Susanka's narrow house

Loving all your comments!

We entertain anywhere from 12-40 people 2x per month so the big dining room is necessary. The 90 degree angle idea is interesting, but we'd like the keep the dining room closed off so I have to make sure there is still room for a hallway. I'm actually going to remove the stools from the island and just have cabinets under. The seating area in family room is for board games etc. and the dinette area if for our daily informal meals.

As far as master bedroom goes -- we considered making that small sitting area into the closet, but it just isn't big enough for both of us. We are big shoppers :) Also, my husband travels early for work and we are trying to keep the dressing area separate from the bedroom so he doesn't wake me up.

We do have a full basement and attic, I will post those plans below. There is a guest room in the attic that can one day be used for one of the kids, but I don't know that any of them will want to go up there alone. We are considering removing that back bathroom and just cutting the room in half so there are two smaller rooms.

Backyard will have a shed for bicycles,etc. There is room for 2 cars at the foot of the driveway, and we can pull cars towards the back of the driveway, but it will be a tight fit.

Please let me know if anyone would be willing to mock up a few of these changes so we can visualize. Thanks!

attic

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