Get an agent for yourself--someone who will not have a conflict of interest due to representing the seller. Do not talk to the listing agent about this lot until you have your own agent. The listing agent's duty is to the seller and maximizing the sale price. And sure, the seller is required to disclose everything known about the lot but you should have someone on your side to help you perform due diligence.

The right offer should reflect what the lot is worth to you, and leave room for you to negotiate. The listing price should not figure into your offer, unless price is not an issue for you. Why would you let the seller tell you what it's worth to you? Surely you're not insulted by the seller's valuation, no matter how off you think it is. Their price may indicate that they won't want to consider a comparatively low offer but in the absence of other offers a good listing agent would advise his client that an offer just starts a conversation. What would the seller have to lose by countering even if it's for $1 off list? For a lot that sounds like it's been unsold for a decade?

Throwing too much money on the table with your opening offer would be starting off on the wrong foot. A buyer's agent would be able to speak to the listing agent first and phrase your offer respectfully and convey to the listing agent that you're willing to negotiate.

This post was edited by dadereni on Wed, Oct 2, 13 at 9:44

No well and it's 210K? I would definitely get your own agent...and also find out how much a well and septic are going to be. Even if you get this lot for the 160K, you still don't know how much it's going to cost to add the well and septic. And are any of the HOA or CC&Rs going to interfere with you getting these put in? Also, find out if the county has any additional restrictions.

Personally, I wouldn't even consider a community well. What kind of perc rate do you need to have for the septic? Is there a reason this developer is still sitting on these lots...10 years later? Do NOT use his agent. I just don't see an upside to this.

Are there really so few lots available? Are you looking for more land to have a view, privacy or both? Maybe it's the difference in areas...but that seems like a lot of money for that sized lot...especially without well and septic.

Have you considered any existing homes and remodeling? Or even tearing down and starting over? If there aren't many restrictions, you could do what you want and start out with a well and septic already in place. Then, you could at least have them inspected to make sure they'll be adequate.

Olivesmom-
The large acres we just bought, we used the sellers agent. He was too new to be handling the transaction. He pitted the buyers and sellers against each other...and I did most of his job...even scheduled closing myself. He never called to confirm that closing was set. We got our land for less about 80% ofasking price....but out ffinal offer was accepted within almost 2 weeks of them listing. 210K seems like a lot to me for 5 acres....how much does an acre in the area go for? We also extended our search area, but land in the new search area goes for about 80% of where we were looking. I know it can be really hard to find land. We looked very hard for over a year. There is no way we would've done HOA or any restrictions. If you spend 210k on the lot and "x" on your house, how far upside down will you be if you do need to sell? Had we found a house on the number of acres we wanted, we would've been MUCH further ahead! But we also won't have any shared driveways, and NO RESTRICTIONS.

(LL on our side of the state, a "tear down" "lot" of smaller size could be 1.5x the asking price on this larger, cleared lot... It really is a difference of land value on your side of the state v our side, unfortunately).

That said, Olivesmom, I'd want to find out what *their* justification in the difference in asking price is for the 2 remaining lots. I'm not seeing a reason this one should be so much more than the other.

Of course, the fact that you are interested in this one and not the other might answer that question too.

I'm not familiar with property that requires a well.

Is there a gaurantee that you will hit water when you drill?

Is there a chance that you could buy the lot and not get a good well? Forgive my ignorance on this subject..

Thanks for the feedback so far! To answer a few questions:

I have already been in contact with the listing agent. At this point I'm not locked in to using him, but it might just be easier. Of course due diligence is extremely important, but I feel like I'm going to be triple checking everything myself anyway (using an agent or not) so why complicate things further and bring yet another party into the equation. If I knew another land specialist I would probably just use them, but this guy is it. He has most of the land listings around here anyway. The builder we use will handle all the permitting and whatnot, so I will seek their advice during the feasibility period to ensure that the lot is everything we think it is.

The lot we want is 5 creek side acres. It is the most private of all the lots. However, the creek means wetland and in this case that means a 165ft buffer (and the buffer just increased from 110 ft in 2013) which basically reduces the buildable area to about an acre. The other lots do not have wetland issues. We want a private, wooded lot and while the creek does mean building restrictions, it also means fun. At least to my husband who has romaticized the whole idea...him and the kids catching things like crayfish (do those even live here?) and other outdoorsy activities.

The community well: I'm not familiar with community wells or even wells in general. The idea of sharing a well seems like it could be problematic, but not having to deal with the cost of putting in a well or the hassle of placing the well far enough away from septic is also appealing. The other smaller lot has a community well share, listing agent states it is worth $9,000. The lot we want needs it's own well for whatever reason.

Here's a breakdown of the lots and when/what they sold for:

Lot 1 : 1.4 acres sold in 2007 for 219K (house has been built)
Lot 2: 1.3 acres for sale @ 130K
Lot 3: 1.5 acres sold 2007 for 242K then sold 2010 for 200k ( house built)
Lot 4: 5 acres listed for sale @210K ***one we want***
Lot 5: 1.2 acres sold in 2012 for 130K (house under construction{{gwi:807}})
Lot 6: 1.2 acres sold in 2008 for 230K (lot still vacant)
Lot 7: 1.1 acres sold in 2007 for 199K (lot still vacant)

After reviewing all of this I think maybe the lot is worth more like 130 since the actual buildable area is closer to one acre. Plus the other lots have the community well, lot 5 does not. I think the seller (and I think the listing agent may have a partial interest in this development) is eager to sell off the last two lots.

A little more legwork needs to be done to confirm that the 2013 changes in buffer requirements won't impact potential house placement.

I'm also wondering if a winter water table review needs to be done, and if so who normally pays for that. If it needs to be done we might be able to hurry and get one started, otherwise we have to wait until next year.

We would like to start building early 2014 and be finished in the summer. I'm not sure if that is even possible with all the red tape the county imposes, but some of this was started so maybe???

This post was edited by olivesmom on Wed, Oct 2, 13 at 16:21

$210,000 for acreage with no well and septic? Do you guys have a better guarantee of a good well, with all the rain?

Here you can drill very deep and still not find adequate water. And how much would that cost?

Also a 5 acre lot on a cul de sac? How exactly does that work? Sorry if I sound negative, but is the house right by the road? Do you have to put in a drive? Do you have snow?

Living in the country, these are things we have to deal with all the time, so I would highly recommend a third party be involved...not the listing agent for the property. It's been 5 years and no one has bought it, which would give me pause, as well.

Here is the lot outlined in purple. We should be able to build in the SE corner of the lot.

The picture is older, but directly south from the lot and down the middle is a paved road that ends in front of the lot with a cul de sac. There are three other lots on either side of the paved road, south of the lot we want.

This post was edited by olivesmom on Wed, Oct 2, 13 at 16:18

This is the street view, the driveway to the immediate right is lot one. Lot 2 has all the trees, and lot three is that driveway at the top right. Straight ahead beyond the cul de sac is lot 5, and next to it on the left is the drive way to lot six which is under contruction. The other two lots on the left are still vacant.

The price for the lot doesnt seem to high in my opinion. Your in Washington right? Im in central California and the 3 acre lot across the street from me ( very hilly, lots of ground work needed to even have an area to build a home), but on the river just sold for 300k. No well, no driveway, no power , no nothing:) Even though there isnt much area to build, just the fact that its on water significantly increases the value.

Are any of the other lots on water?

When I say I used the sellers agent, I did not really specify all the "due diligence" I did. Our property has an easement, which complicated matters...but I will not list the due diligence I did on that. Regardless of which agent you want to use, I would recommend you take at least a few hours and visit the county offices. You NEED to talk to zoning. They should be able to give you lots of additional setback information you may need. But you also need to get them to print out a floodplain map for you. Don't rely on what the agent gives you. A considerable amount of our 60 creekside acres are in a floodplain. Also ask them about wells in the area. We were able to get from our NRCS (kinda like the NRD, but another division) [national resource conservation department] a printout of our land showing the different soil types and descriptions. We have quite a few different soil "zones". He was able to tell us how good our soil in specific locations was for building. He also told us that the water quality if we do hit water was very high in iron, etc...and we knew we would have huge appliance damages if We do a well.
You can also visit your register of deeds if you would like to check easements, etc....I did...I would rather not have to make a title work claim! I visited the assessors office, but that was a little more related to easement issues.
Also, is there already power to your spot. I will be looking at 5K to get electricity to my area. In Nebraska, a well will run.about $7500 and a septic is another $7500.
Also, find out restrictions zoning has for 5 acre lots. Here, you have to have at least 10 acres to have a horse. Maybe you don't want a horse, but maybe you want 14 buildings and zoning will only allow 2?
Don't rely on the realtor for anything! He isn't spending 200K on the land! Check everything out yourself. It is overwhelming because we are told we don't have enough experience to ask these questions....but it really is empowering to gather this information.

Can you actually get a driveway on that lot that's not within the wetlands? Or will it need to encroach on another lot with an easement? With the setback increasing so much, will there be enough space for the septic, well, and house? What have nearby homes perc'd for? How well it percs determines how large the home can be, and how many bedrooms. If it doesn't perc well enough, you may have to go to a much more expensive system.

Something that has sat as long as it has and hasn't been purchased has some type of issues beyond just price. Someone would have already snapped it up during the boom years otherwise. And, in your metro area, demand for good buildable lots never quite went away. If it's still there, there's somthing that someone isn't telling you.

On the other side of this creek, further north there is a 1.25 acre lot for sale @125K. It's not in any kind if development, no CC&Rs. The did some sort of native planting thing that gives them a better setback from the creek. It has been on the market for over a year.

Just down the road from the lot we are looking at is a 4.3 acre lot, not on the stream and doesn't appear to have any wetlands. They are asking 165K. The lot was created before 1972 so I think that means some of the newer rules don't apply. It has been on the market for two years now.

There is nothing pending nearby. Zillow doesn't seem to be reliable for listing recent sold properties. So I can't really find much in the way of comps. Lot 5 that sold in 2012 for 130 is probably the best indicator or price, but that was just over a year ago.

Duplicate post

This post was edited by mrsfireman on Wed, Oct 2, 13 at 17:43

Live wire: here is a site map showing the 165' buffer. Looks like the is plenty of room for a driveway and house to fit without encroaching on the buffers. There is even a well loaction mapped out, and a buffer around it. I would think a septic system could be placed at the back of the lot.

And what I've been referring to as "lot 4" actually consists of multiple lots, and then I renumbered them in my explanation here, so if the lot numbers look confusing that's why. So the lot I'm looking at is actually lots 4,5 &10 on this map. A house could only fit on lot 4. Hope that makes sense.

Wow! Have you looked at these other lots? They don't sound too bad, especially if they have less restrictions..although flood plain doesn't change with age...at least not in our area. I have a barn that's over 60 years old...and it just got put IN a floor plain :(

Are you in western Washington? Then snow shouldn't be too much of a concern. Have you talked to the people selling the other lots? They might give you some insight into this development. It's just odd that they've had these lots sitting so long...before the prices fell.

Before panicking too much about needing well and septic, find out what they are likely to cost. You should make any offer contingent on good perc test results, and the same people who do the test can probably tell you what a septic system costs in your area (I'd find out the likely cost before I made an offer).

Is the community well relatively close to this lot? Find out how deep it is, and that should give you a rough idea of how deep you're likely to have to go for your private well.

As for having room for both well and septic, I don't think that's an issue if you've got an acre of buildable land. Our well is right in front of our house (@ 20 feet E of the NE corner) and our septic is @ 100 feet from the South side of our house.

When I say I used the sellers agent, I did not really specify all the "due diligence" I did. Our property has an easement, which complicated matters...but I will not list the due diligence I did on that. Regardless of which agent you want to use, I would recommend you take at least a few hours and visit the county offices. You NEED to talk to zoning. They should be able to give you lots of additional setback information you may need. But you also need to get them to print out a floodplain map for you. Don't rely on what the agent gives you. A considerable amount of our 60 creekside acres are in a floodplain. Also ask them about wells in the area. We were able to get from our NRCS (kinda like the NRD, but another division) [national resource conservation department] a printout of our land showing the different soil types and descriptions. We have quite a few different soil "zones". He was able to tell us how good our soil in specific locations was for building. He also told us that the water quality if we do hit water was very high in iron, etc...and we knew we would have huge appliance damages if We do a well.
You can also visit your register of deeds if you would like to check easements, etc....I did...I would rather not have to make a title work claim! I visited the assessors office, but that was a little more related to easement issues.
Also, is there already power to your spot. I will be looking at 5K to get electricity to my area. In Nebraska, a well will run.about $7500 and a septic is another $7500.
Also, find out restrictions zoning has for 5 acre lots. Here, you have to have at least 10 acres to have a horse. Maybe you don't want a horse, but maybe you want 14 buildings and zoning will only allow 2?
Don't rely on the realtor for anything! He isn't spending 200K on the land! Check everything out yourself. It is overwhelming because we are told we don't have enough experience to ask these questions....but it really is empowering to gather this information.

There is power. The box is very close to the cul de sac though, so I'm sure there will be some expense as the house will be built in the far SE corner.

I doubt there will be an issue with the well. The community well is nearby and I can find out how far they drilled.

The listing agent mentioned the soil is sandy and shouldn't be a problem for septic. Of course we will find out for ourselves, but I've spoken with this agent about other properties and he's never made a point of mentioning soil quality before.

red lover - When you need to drill a well, there is no guarantee you will hit water. The first hole we drilled was over 600 feet and we did not hit water - well, we got about a quart a minute. We then had to drill another well, and we did hit water.

They might hold out on this price point... Being the size it is, they might be hoping for someone to come in and hope to subdivide it at some future point after paying the county for wetland variances, etc.... It certainly appears large enough for another sub-divide at some future time--depending on how rural it actually is.

Read into Coal Creek. There are some revitalization things going on/planned that you should know about (may or may not affect anything for you, but coal creek is something; I just can't remember what I read about it).

Make sure you consider how you'll maintain that acreage, esp if it has significant trees that could be considered hazard trees soon or later that might land on the other lots should they fall... Will you fence it? Is it already fenced?

Kirkhall: I think there are multiple creeks named "coal creek". I know there's another one in Newcastle. I looked up the creek here and didn't find any info on it, so perhaps the project you recall was on a different coal creek.

I don't think it will be possible to subdivide and build, the creek and it's 165 ft buffer takes up all the other lots. The property is not fenced and I don't think we'd fence any if it. There is an easement on this property granting the neighborhood residents (6 other homes) trail acess down to the creek. We are fine with that as the trail is through a portion of the property that's not near the building site.

We are still trying to figure out what to offer. I do think it should be closer to 130K. But im nervous to offer that as it is a pretty big difference from the 210k asking price.

This post was edited by olivesmom on Thu, Oct 3, 13 at 2:02

Just a few more words to offer from our experience buying land. We are in the Midwest, so complete different area....anyways, some things must still pertain.

My in laws are out west on a community well for the past 15 years. The nightmares they have had with this.....I would NEVER EVER share a well. Some pay, some don't pay. One has a swimming pool & has NEVER paid for well maintenance etc. it is a nightmare waiting to happen. Money must be setup in reserve if a pump goes out, etc. Will you have the funds and time and "nerve" to take your neighbor to court over well issues in the future.

Please, use a 3rd part to represent you. The sellers agent can still be a valuable resource. With this,large of a purchase....why not have as many people helping you as possible??? Notify the county and meet with them to go over the well and septic proposal. They should for free or very little cost, meet with you and go over possible placement and soil samples if done or needs to be done. We built last year on 9 acres and still can not believe all the maneuvering it took to fit the septic, well, driveway and house. I would get so frustrated because we had "so" much land & couldn't just. Plop things anywhere. In all of our builds the septic location was a huge nuisance to finalize. The contour of the land (here) dictates placement. All and all we are thrilled with everything, but it took a lot of work to get to this place.

We had our own representative, we had the seller complete soil samples before the purchase. We met with the county engineers a few times and the septic builder and others prior to the purchase. And still had to move things around at the end. Also, be aware....driveway, septic and well in our experiences have always come in over the estimate. Seems there is always an issue ans more stone, more sand, more distance, more $$$$ I as always needed in the end.

In our experiences, land cost is not very negotiable. Especially, now with the market improving. There is something about land and owners and values. Generally speaking, farmers, etc who are selling land feel it has a certain valu and will not budge. Our current land was on the market for a few years, why??? Was there something wrong with it? NO, it is amazing, but pricey for what people want to pay for land around here. The man who sold it too us, finally came down ONLY $500 after months of negotiating. Our first offer was 20k less and he never even countered. And this was a man who financially needed the money. We were also looking at 5 acre lots, baeutiful, wooded lots. A farmer sub-divided some of his land to make 5, 5 acre parcels each. 1 has sold in the past 5 years. He will not budge on the price 1 penny. The seller agent says reason being, he thinks they are worth it and obviously has no incentive to sell them anytime soon.

Just some little words of caution and I wish you the best!!!

210K and you want to offer 130K? You'd really better have a representative other than the listing agent who will do substantial research to justify that offer and present that to the seller with the offer. Otherwise it will go straight in the trash without any acknowledgement. Even if you have the research to justify the offer, the seller may refuse to budge. Land is MUCH less negotiable than homes. I think that the past history of the area and it's lack of any price adjustment and long listing time means that the seller is unlikely to consider even a minor discount in price.

I don't think you have much hope of buying land for 2/3 of the list price. We looked at a house with MAJOR obvious foundation issues that were not reflected in the price, and our realtor didn't want to present an offer like that even in that situation.

Okay, so it's not as if I walked into the lot and just decided, heck I'm going to offer 2/3rds of the list price.

After looking at what the other lots have sold for and the constraints that this lot has, it just seems to me that this lot isn't worth much more than the other available lot. This lot has 5 acres, but about 4 of those acres are take up by the creek buffer so we will never be able to develop them. Also, this lot requires its own well, the other lots came with a community well.

How much this lot is worth is what I'm trying to figure out. And I never set out to lowball, I just want a fair price.

Does being creek side really add that much value over the other lots? Even when it means large buffers to build around and more red tape. Even when the other lots have an easement through the property allowing them trail access to the creek for recreational purposes?

You may not think that trail easement is a problem today, but I would not buy a property with that type of easement. What is to prevent neighbors from riding ATVs, leaving litter on the easement, etc.?

I'll have to look into the ATV thing, but I'm not too concerned about the easement. First of all it is on a portion of the lot that is quite far from where our home would go. Also, we are talking about six possible neighbors. There are only three so far and they have all built nice homes and have kept them that way. Problematic neighbors can exist anywhere and while the trail easement creates room for more potential issues, its a risk we are willing to take. In all honesty, I'm happy to share the creek with the neighbors and I'm doubtful they would be disrespectful.

5 acres is pretty small for acreage. We have 5 acres, and a seasonal creek at the back, and you can bet I would see if the neighbors were out back wandering around the creek. Or skinnydipping. Or the kids building a hack treehouse. Or their teenagers smoking pot. Or having sex. Or the adults having a case of beer and crawfishing and leaving their empties around. That is all activity that my cousin can see from her house on 10 acres. (It's across the shared pond on the other neighbor's property, but it's still visible!)

And yeah, it would bug me. And that is why I wouldn't buy any acreage with anything other than a utility easement. You may "think" your neighbors wouldn't be disrespectful, but don't bet on it. Especially if there are teens involved. (Yes, they got the cops involved with the teens smoking pot and having sex, but it did zero good other than they go down behind the dam to do that now where she doesn't have to actually see them do it.)

I think you summed it up in your first post - the worst they can say is no. You have thought this through and have what seem like valid reasons to value the land as you do. Will the owner feel that way when presented with your offer? Not likely, but you never know what's driving someone at any given moment and it could be the day the owner says I just want to be done with this. Of course this is land, not a house. It's not a hardship emotionally for the owner to hear the reasons for the offer (as it can be with a house) but you are hitting them in the wallet so detail the reasons for your offer to the extreme. I also agree with rrah on the easement and would want some very specific language that details type of use. You just never know.

Do yourself a favor getting a buyer's agent to represent your best interest in the process.

This has been covered by Dadereni, Lavender, and others in earlier responses. I am just speaking from my own experiecence. It is a small piece of city land in an exsisting subdivision and a cash deal that I closed this March. I think I made a mistake of directly dealing with the seller's agent myself. She is very professional, which is very good for the seller but not necessarily a postive thing for me as a buyer. I understand it sounds easy for you to contact the listing agent directly but in such big transaction you really need some professional on your side. If nothing else, the buyer's agent works as a buffer. You need to keep at some distance from the other party. Just my 2cents. Good Luck!

Not that you need to be reminded, but I am going to add to the group of people that recommend you utilizing you're own agent.

We are currently building (in framing now) near your desired area and I thought I would share with you our financial experience with devleoping a lot that does not have anything on it. We also purchased 5+ acres with sensitive areas and a creek. Here is a run down of the out of pocket costs we have paid for - above the cost of purchasing the land. Just giving you this info so you have an idea of what development costs could be before you even break ground on your home:

Wetland Study and CAD required for permits: $2000
Winter Water Table Review for septic: $3400
Septic Design and Application: $3000
Well Drilled and Pump House installed: $13000
Driveway Punched It: $2500
House Plans: $4000
Building Permits: $16000
Power from Street: $7500
Total: $51,400

Hope that helps!

Thanks NWHobart: we were looking at lots in your area the other day and I was wondering if we'd happen upon your build, which I don't think we did.

The lot in question does have the CAD completed and a county approved site plan (good through 2018). I'm not sure if a winter water table review will be required or not.

Did you have to drill particularly deep with your well? $13,000 seems a little higher than I would anticipate for a well. Also, $16,000 for permits, is that normal? I expected more like a couple thousand. How much do you think your septic system is going to cost?

Thanks again for sharing your numbers

Olive....I think you are on the right track by starting off at 130k because 75% of that lot is unusable for building. Plus you mentioned the other lots 'already' have a well and you would need to install one. Plus part of your lot is 'everyones' in the neighborhood. Back when that neighborhood was started(mid 2000's) people were getting ripped off buying lots during the boom. It happened here ALLOT back then. Now the lots left over are going for a fraction of what they were asking back then.

I am in your general area and our permits were close to $17K, that was after King Co. quoted us $10K to begin with.

13K for a well and pump is not that expensive...
And, yeah, don't underestimate the ridiculous cost of permits--we are in a fee-happy county afterall.

To answer your questions Olive:

We got water at 70+ feet, so, nope, not too deep. We have friends that driled 350' in Ravensdale and paid much more for their well.$ That 13K covered the entire cost( drilling is just fraction of it) to bring the water to our build site.

Also, $16,000 for permits, is that normal? I expected more like a couple thousand. - Yep, $16K is normal. $6K alone went to our local school district.

How much do you think your septic system is going to cost? - Our septic is in the $20 - $23K range.

I know you have been looking for quite awhile, so I wish you luck in finding the perfect spot for you and your family. Let me know if you have any other questions.

If the other lot can use the creek, is cheaper and already has a well, why not buy it instead?

That logic right there ^^ (Zone's) will be what your (their) agent will say... and is why you need independent representation for this buy if you plan to offer 90k less.

My answer to Zone's (or the listing agent's) question is that we prefer the privacy offered by the other lot, HOWEVER we feel that the building restrictions/wetland buffers/easement and lack of well share should be reflected in the price, thus a less than full price offer.

Oh, I think you should definitely low ball them, since this lot has been sitting so long. Why pay more than it's worth? My concern is more about unexpected costs that you run into, after the purchase.

So, worst case scenario, you offer 2/3 of the asking price and they either say no, come back with another offer or tell you to keep looking. And, since this isn't someone's home, I doubt you'll offend the developer to the point they won't accept a future offer.

If you can afford it, I say go for it...but PLEASE get someone (agent, lawyer, etc.) to look at the paperwork and check on floodplain status, water/septic, etc. I'd hate for you to buy a lot that you find out doesn't support the home you really want. Best of luck and let us know how things go :)

Also just an FYI, during our process with King Co, we paid for a CAD study for the lot for due diligence. When we went for permits, the County still changed their stance and changed some of the wetland stuff on us, it was fine but it did devalue the lot further. This was a fresg CAD that we paid for and then they changed it so there is always unforeseen things that could happen :/ I would recommend doing your own evaluations and not taking anything that was done more than a few months ago.