We have 4 boys, 11, 7, 5, and 1. We plan on staying here long term. Its located on a 5.6 acre lot in the country. I'm going for the old farmhouse look on the exterior.

I'm pretty happy with the 2nd floor, I'm close on the 1st, and I'm in no way committed to the basement, but it needs to house a theatre room and guest room. We'll also finish more of it off, but we're running out of funds so that may happen later. There is a good likihood the window in the guest room right now will be a daylight exposure (drawn as an egress) If that is the case I'd keep that as the guest room so I don't have to dig an egress. Otherwise, I'm pretty open to total changes down there.

I am not happy with the exterior, but not sure why. I HATE the window style in the center on top right now, I'm planning on an older style, perhaps a gothic window.

So, what do you think? I know it still needs a little tweeking.

I think you've done a fine job of equality in the boys' rooms and bathrooms. Excellent idea to give the fellas an upstairs laundry room!

Now onto the downstairs...I'm not really feeling the master bath. I can't really seem to understand the purpose of the half (?) wall beside of the toilet. It doesn't really hide anything since the toilet can still be seen from the exterior door and from the bedroom door. For that much space it seems that you should be able to get a longer sink vanity and/or more storage in the master bath. In the kitchen I would want more windows. I'm assuming you must have plans for the breakfast area wall like a hutch or something and that's fine, but then I would increase the size of the window over the sink. The toy room is nice and can "grow" with your family. Where will you put computers for the kids? Will they be in the study or is this to be a formal room? It's great that you have space for the cubbies as you enter from the garage but I would scoot the wall up from the laundry room and increase the laundry size since all you will need for the family entrance is the lockers and you won't need the extra space. That extra space can be put to better use in the laundry room...more hang to dry space, more storage, etc.

You don't have the measurements marked but the front porch looks to be a little too shallow to be anything more than just a pretty accent. I think front porches should be at least 8-10 feet deep. Are you extending the deck all the way across the back? I like having the door off of the master. We are going to do that too, specifically for the hottub! Well that's about it. I hope I've been helpful. Hopefully some of the more experienced folks will chime in.

The thing that hit me is the entry from foyer into the Great Room. The "square opening" should be located more symmetrically against the doorway from the foyer into the Great Room. People who enter from the foyer might currently feel like the openings are offset.

Regarding Great Room, I love the L of LR/DR with kitchen inbetween. I am a great fan of open kitchens. So if it suits your lifestyle, then you might want to make the wall between GR and kitchen to be a half wall with only lower cabinets. That way, from the kitchen you can look into both DR and LR.

Regarding Master bath, try to reconfigure the layout by relocating the entrance into the bath if possible. Currently, MBR has doors in the middle of three walls and the only way you can position a bed is against the wall with the window.

The upstairs launry was originally not there, it had a vaulted foyer instead, but I'd rather have the laundry, so we changed it. This had us rearrange the whole upstairs, but I think it fits well.

I was thinking the same thing on the master bath, why the wall by the toilet? And I'm thinking of having the claw foot tub perhaps at an angle coming out of the corner instead of along the wall. I am not sure why she put a small wall at the end of the tub either. I want it to feel open and airy in there. I'm not blown away by that bathroom either, but we are having a hot tub out there so want the exit from the bathroom to get to it.

We are planning a table and chairs only, no other furniture right there, so I totally agree, that would be a perfect place for more windows! I didn't even look at that part (we just extended that wall 8 feet, so the original plan didn't have windows as it didn't have that space) The kids computer goes in the toy room, we have that layout right now too.

For the mud room, I'm thinking that it would make more sense to move the lockers to wrap around in 2 L shapes on the other side, perhaps have the door open straight into the flat wall (which currently has the lockers) and remove that wall area that has you snake into the mud room (that was so you don't see the lockers from the main hall. Gives the kids more space to actually go to their lockers etc... when we come in all at once instead of just a tight row of them. That laundry is only for us, the kids have it upstairs. I'm thinking of perhaps getting a wall mounted drying rack. I rarely EVER hang dry things, though my husband dries a lot that way.

I'll check the porch measurement. I told her I wanted it big enough for chairs and a porch swing, ours is very narrow right now and it is for looks only.

The back deck etc... is totally up in the air at this second. We're planning a pool and hot tub, so have to deal with that seperately.

Homey, good eye on the door line up! I agree with you, when I lay up a ruler, they are off centered! That would drive me NUTS if it was built that way. Plus, the flow of traffic will go towards the kitchen, so having the opening further that way will be good as far as flow too.

I am not into open spaces, but my husband was suggesting the half wall there over those cabinets. I am not sure of my feelings on that yet. I'll be honest, we tend to have a mess in the kitchen, so having it open to our main entertaining space more doesn't appeal to me.

The house plan originally had curved doorways in the GreatRoom, both of them. However, nothing else in the house is curved. I like curves, but it didn't seem to fit, so I had them squared off instead and used molding around it. Look more structural.

If you want the interior to also feel like a farmhouse, I feel like it misses the mark, too. This is a much more modern, almost suburban floorplan on the interior. (Which may be what you want.) I do feel like if there are large family gatherings planned, the great room will be empty and people will crowd into the kitchen -- which you may not want while trying to prep food. I know you don't want an open plan, but... JMHO.

One curiosity is the dining room. The eating area in the kitchen is larger. Is this intentional?

For the mudroom, why not have a wall of lockers like you have and then one each in the other corners? Then the kids can spread out to the four corners when they come home instead of bunching up in the walkway.

I love the 2nd floor layout. It's very efficient and a good compromise between kid-land and privacy.

But then I realized that there is an easy fix. Just do a vertical mirror image flip of the entire bathroom. VOILA! The bathroom doors move just enough further back so that they don't collide with the bedroom doors anymore. Here is a sketch where I did just that using my Paint program.
And notice that this also makes it possible to turn that spot behind the bathtub into a real linen closet with a door to the hall instead of just having some open shelving that you have to climb around the toilet to really get to.

As big as your master bath is, it seemed to me that there just had to be some better alternatives to arranging the fixtures than the one you have. So I played around with it some and came up with these three possibilities.

Overall, I think your floorplan is really pretty nice. It flows well and seems to fit your family. Obviously there are still some little tweaks but nothing major.

To give the exterior more of a farmhouse look, see if your architect can't work out a roof line with cross gables so that you have a narrower, steeper gable in front. Then give the garage roof the same pitch as the front gable of the house but make the porch roof have a shallower pitch. I can't explain it very well but the the idea is to make the front elevation look more like this:

And yes, do get rid of that palladian window! Either use 5 rectangular windows as suggested above or use 3 rectangular windows and put shutters on them... but make sure the shutters are the right size. They should LOOK like they would really close over the window even if they're inoperable.

If you wanted, you could put a small arch top window or some other fancy shaped window (round, octagonal) up in the attic gable. Or, if you like Victorianish gee-gaws, add a little gingerbread to the eave. Or just leave it plain.

Just some ideas...

We were working out numbers again last night and I about fell off of my chair. I have a big feeling we are just skyrocketing over budget. I have put in a call to both our builder/designer (both of them) and to our banker. I am confused about something the banker said, which is $100,000 difference, either our total was $xxx,xxx + the home equity line of $100,000 or that $xxx,xxx included the $100,000. Obviously a significant difference. If it is including the $100,000 already, the build will have to be put off. I am also just starting to work on the first floor. I guess I could cut off the toy room, put the toy room in the study, not finish the basement but put the office stuff down there. I'm going to see what I can do to shrink the living room, bedroom, closet on the main floor.

Because of these things we are trying to cut costs, and the added gables add to the cost of the build only for visual purposes, so I think that won't be added. We did turn the gables to face the front (2nd floor) so I could add some decorative gingerbread and a window of some sort on that triangle.

bevangel, couldn't I just have both bathroom doors open to the inside instead of to the room? I have a closet in the laundry room and was planning on having the shelves in the bathroom more decorative. We have some here and I really like them. I'll mention it to DH though, he may be wild about it. I like giving in to him on things I don't care one way or the other ;)

As to the windows, this is kind of what I'm aspiring to.

Oh, one more concern. Because of the side roofs from the first floor, she said she can't put the same size windows on the side walls as she does the front and back (boys bedrooms) Do you think this will seem odd inside their rooms?

Can you ditch the basement completely and build something more like the picture you posted? How often do you have guest? Two of the boys can bunk together briefly and guest will stay in one of their rooms.

If the budget is tight with the 100K, by ditching the basement and putting off a garage until later (sorry!) you will be able to build the house. I really think a detached garage with a short, covered walk or deck would make the house more of a farmhouse. If you attach a garage, you've shot it in the foot. The connection could even be enclosed, if you live in a cold climate. Make it wide enough and do a brick floor that can be easily cleaned, if you're in snow country.

You have a fairly simple footprint with the exception of that toy room, and that's not a big deal. Putting off finishing the basement will save a little, just rough in the plumbing. Overall the house is quite big, though. Can you identify rooms you don't need or could be downsized?

Can you identify line items in your budget that you can DIY without impacting the construction schedules? (Like bath hardware: $550. I already have the hardware purchased and a towel rack is 4 screws.)

Or finishes that can be upgraded later? Areas where you can hip the roof instead of paying for gables, like the toy room and the back of the garage? If the house is low enough to the ground, perhaps you can skip the porch railings.

Hang in there; you may yet find the savings you need without seriously impacting your vision.

I think the 5 windows would be better than 3 with shutters. 5 windows on top will give the house exterior it's own a rhythm. I don't think I'd skip the doors to the bath are in the boy's room. The 11 year old will be a teen soon and may not want his little bro watching him primp or learning how to shave, etc.

Few updates... we talked to a different bank who will loan us more money. Enough to build what we were originally thinking, but we are still going to try to cut it down a little, just for peace of mind on the payments, plus less to insure, heat, decorate and pay taxes on. The right half of the first floor could all be condensed in my opinion.

We will definately dig a basement, I don't consider that optional. Tornadoes are a regular occurance here and you go to your basement when they hit. And I can't add that later, so definately will go in now. It doesn't have to get finished now though.

The toyroom on the main floor is important. The boys fight like... well 4 brothers. So I like to keep them in ears range and be able to see them regularly.

I spoke to our builder and designer and they said they had a few ideas on how to simplify a few things without affecting the feel of the house. We are also thinking of not excavating under the toyroom area, just have slab foundation there. The basement is still plenty large. Will see what they say.

We could easily do the bath hardware ourselves, we are reasonably handy (though DH HATES drywalling) We completely finished our basement from unfinished to full finish only hiring a plumber to break into the flooring as it wasn't stubbed for a bath that we put in. But we don't want the house to need us to do tons of work either as DH works full time plus is in grad school and we want it to be pretty ready to move in when its time.

Thanks for all of your opinions though! Even my designer has said how neat it is to have other's take on it! I'm so relieved she is very patient and makes every change I suggest, even when it is going back to a previous idea.

IMHO it seems a shame to be cutting architectural features like dormers, etc. but wasting money on transfer beams that could be avoided with more planning.

The large, almost square second floor makes this house a difficult design challenge. It is not a good proportion for a traditional "farmhouse"/classical revival/folk style house but a "foursquare" hipped roof might work. It could also be a Shingle Style with a wrap-around porch.

I have to go measure rooms to see how I feel about some of the changes, but it went from 3761 ft2 on the top 2 floors to 3484 ft2, so hopefully that helps our budget some. If you're paying attention to the sizes in the pics, the basement stayed the same simply because she hasn't updated the basement yet, waiting to see our take on these floors.

So, what say you?

Part of my time today was spent moving the upstairs so it lined up with the kitchen wall. You are correct that by having the second floor ‘floating’ in the middle would add some cost. I actually slid the second floor so it goes from the kitchen wall/garage wall to the great room/master bedroom wall. There will have to be one beam, probably a microlam, (wood laminated together to form a structural member) that spans from the corner of the great room to the outside wall of the kitchen. By sliding the second floor over, a few other things have changed. I had to reverse the stairs in the foyer, I also had to move the chase location so it was not interfering with the foyer. I did take six inches from Owen’s room in order to move the stairs. Also upstairs, I did create sort of a weird closet by the water heater, I thought about having this space be open shelving but I also thought it may be useful for some storage, vacuum, swiffer, etc? Please let me know your thoughts on this.
Part of my time today was spent moving the upstairs so it lined up with the kitchen wall. You are correct that by having the second floor ‘floating’ in the middle would add some cost. I actually slid the second floor so it goes from the kitchen wall/garage wall to the great room/master bedroom wall. There will have to be one beam, probably a microlam, (wood laminated together to form a structural member) that spans from the corner of the great room to the outside wall of the kitchen. By sliding the second floor over, a few other things have changed. I had to reverse the stairs in the foyer, I also had to move the chase location so it was not interfering with the foyer. I did take six inches from Owen’s room in order to move the stairs. Also upstairs, I did create sort of a weird closet by the water heater, I thought about having this space be open shelving but I also thought it may be useful for some storage, vacuum, swiffer, etc? Please let me know your thoughts on this.

The most efficient (cheapest) way to frame the house would be to turn the rafter framing 90 degrees so the outside walls and foundation could support the roof loads. If that roof design is not acceptable then it would be necessary to add beams at the master bedroom, etc. and a row of steel posts in the basement.

Your designer has been negligent to not resolve such issues since it only takes a moment to do so. She should at least have shown you a roof framed the other way. Someone needs to take charge of the design effort and it doesn't appear that the contractor's designer is willing to do that.

The newest iteration of the floor-plan is much improved. There are still a few things I would revise tho.

1) Alabamanicole is right about there still being a door conflict in Keegan's room. If Keegan's bathroom door is standing open by more than 90 degrees, it will be in the way of his bedroom door opening. Either have his bathroom door swing into the bathroom (there is space enough) or put the hinges on the other side of the frame so that, when open, it is out of the way of the bedroom door.

2) The door into the tub area of that same bathroom needs to swing in towards the tub instead of outward toward the sinks. As shown, when the tubroom door is standing open, it will block Ethan from entering the bathroom. A door that is standing open should never block another doorway.

3) Owen's closet doesn't look deep enough for the door to open inward as shown. When clothes are hung on a rod, they take up about 22 inches as measured from the wall. Then, because the sleeves of heavy coats may stick out further, you should have at least another couple of inches of clear space that the closet door will not swing into when it is fully open. If your closet door is only 24 inches wide, then the closet needs to be a minimum of 4 feet deep. If the door is wider, the closet needs to be deeper also. As shown the closet looks like it is only about 38 to 42 inches deep and the end of the door will sweep practically right up to the metal hanging rod. So you won't really be able to use the left end of the rod. Also, having two rods, or a rod and shelves, crossing each other in the corner of the closet is kind of deceiving because the two rods interfere with each other. So that corner end won't be terribly useful either. Thus Owen's closet is going to have very little usable storage for the amount of space it takes up.

I would probably just make Owen's closet a 24" deep reach-in closet and add the extra square footage back into his bedroom. Alternatively, if you really want a walk-in in all the bedrooms, consider moving that closet door to the center of the closet, hinging it so that it opens outward, and then putting the hanging rods across each short end of the closet so that they are parallel to each other and don't cross. You'll have a more functional closet.

4) Liam's closet may have the same problem. I'm not sure tho. It looks like it is actually a few inches deeper than Owen's so maybe a 24" door will swing into that closet without hitting clothing hanging on that rod. But, even if that is true, that chase in Liam's closet severely limits the useable space he has because there is no way you can really store anything in that cave between the chase and the back closet wall.

5) (And this may help solve #4) Downstairs, I don't like the long hallway running from the master bedroom clear thru the mud room to the garage door. It is just too long - and do you really want to be looking at the garage door and mudroom when you walk out of your bedroom first thing in the morning? So, I'm wondering if you can't swap the location of the chase in the mudroom with the opening between the mudroom and hall. This would tuck the mud room opening down that little hallway between kitchen and dining room and give you a wall where you could hang a nice piece of artwork.

And the reason this might solve Liam's closet problem is that I think this swap would move the upstairs part of that chase so part of it winds up stuck into the corner of Ethan's closet and the rest winds up where the cave in Liam's closet is now. Since corners where two rods cross aren't all that useful anyway, Liam would gain several feet of lot of useful closet space while Ethan mainly just lose the corner out of his closet.

The trade off if that you would have to walk a couple of extra steps from garage to kitchen. BUT, if you wanted to... you could put a cupboard doors opening into the back side of your pantry (from the mudroom side) so your could put groceries directly into the pantry without having to tote them all the way around. This would also have the added advantage of tending to push older things to the front (kitchen side) of the pantry so you'ld use them up before using the later bought packages. LOL!

6) That water heater closet in the new design is really awkward and I hate the wasted space. Anything you put into that 5' x 1' space is going to be nearly impossible to get back out if it gets pushed to the back. Better to just close off all but the first 20 inches or so of it. But, it looks to me like the only reason your designer ended up with this awkward space was that she needed about two more inches of room for the door to the WH closet than was available to her! UGH! If it weren't for that, the bathtub could be pushed all the way back against the hallway wall and that now useless space could be incorporated into Liam and Owen's bath.

So, is there any chance the water heater could be put where the linen closet across the hall is? You could then just use a smaller linen closet with a narrow door where the water heater is now.

Alternatively, since this will be a kid's bathroom, you might also consider getting a shorter than normal bathtub so the bathtub niche could be pushed back against the hall wall. American Standard has one that is only 4.5 ft long called the Mackenzie and another that is only 4.0 ft long called the Huron. I'll put a link below. I wouldn't normally recommend a tub shorter than 5 feet, but by the time your little ones get to be gangling teenagers, the older boys will probabably have gone off to college and the younger ones may want to claim the bigger bedrooms anyway. Or, by then they'll be shower takers anyway and the length of the tub won't matter. Girls are more likely to continue wanting a tub for bubble baths once they're into their teens.

7) Neither of the two openings to your dining room is particularly convenient to guests sitting in the great room. But, with the way the staircase and powderroom wrap around the dining room, I can't think of any other options.

8) However, having the bottom of the staircase start SO close to the front door makes the main entry into the dining room feel cramped and it also makes your foyer feel crowded. Would it be possible to take one or two steps off the bottom and move them to the top end? (i.e., have fewer steps below the landing and more steps above the landing?) Even with the water heater closet, you have plenty of room at the top of the stairs. The question is whether this change would leave you with enough head-room for the staircase DOWN to your basement. If you can push the bottom of the staircase back so that you have a full five feet between the first step and the outer wall, your foyer will look much nicer AND you could have a 4 ft opening into your dining room which would make it feel much more welcoming. Dining rooms are the one room that a bunch of people are usually going into (or out of) at the same time. A 32" wide door forces everyone into single file.

If you the can't push the staircase back, at least consider opeing up the upper part of the wall between the staircase and dining room (the same as on the foyer side).

9) You need to move the opening to the study back at least 3 feet so that, when the front door is open, it doesn't block the entry to the study. Whenever a door is open all the way, it should not block another door or pathway into or out of a room. This is one of those mistakes that inexperienced designers seem to make all the time.

10) Also, I don't know how you are planning to use the study but I'd strongly suggest putting in a pair of 36 inch wide doors so that when both are pushed back, you have a 6 foot wide opening to the foyer. The study can then easily become another living area if you ever want that. Also, wider doors there, even if closed, will make your foyer seem more open.

11) The location and design of the downstairs powderroom bothers me. Even though it is off a hallway, it just seems to much in the CENTER OF THINGS for a bathroom. For one thing, you ARE going to hear flushing (and possibly other noises) in your dining room if anyone leaves the table during Thanksgiving dinner to use the facilities. Second, I can tell you that pocket doors get left standing open all the time. With 4 boys, you'll be lucky if they're EVER closed. And we both know that young boys don't always have the best aim. Consider that you're going to have a view of that toilet - in whatever state the males of your family leave it in - while working at your kitchen island and every time you walk down that hallway!

If the powderroom is primarily for guests to use, I'd recommend swapping the powderroom and hall closet although to do so you would have to make the section of hall going to the master bedroom narrower and probably steal a little bit of space out of the Study. If you did however, you could put a nice desk or built in bookcase into the resulting niche in the study. Or you could put a walkway from the study through to your master bedroom.

And, if you swapped the closet and powder room, you could have a wider entry into your dining room from the kitchen. After all, if you have dinner guests visiting in the great room, when dinner is ready, they may enter the dining room via the door near the kitchen rather than walking down thru the foyer. So it would be nice to have a 4 ft wide doorway on that side too. a wider doorway there would be nicer.

I said a "few things" when I started this and now I've rambled on thru nearly a dozen suggestions. Time for me to stop!

Regarding her #6 -- I have my doubts a good sized water heater will fit there anyway. For example, a Marathon 75 gallon is 28 1/4" in diameter, and you probably want a 105 (30 1/4") for a family of 6. However, if it does, you could have recessed shelves in the space by the stairway instead of that long skinny closet.

As to the water heater, the 2nd floor one is just for that floor, we'll have another one for the basement and 1st floor located in the basement, so the upstairs one doesn't have to be giant. We are looking into putting in a heat pump water heater though and I have no idea if those use two tanks etc... so that closet may not be necessary. The idea for the narrow area would be to hold the broom and mop for the upstairs.

The doors opening out of the shower room is so I can have a fluffy rug there outside of the tub. Ours ALWAYS get stuck on the rug and I don't want to deal with that anymore.

I like the idea of moving the chase to go between both closets. I'll look at how it impacts the 1st floor.

I have some more working to do on the other suggestions you made. The long lists are great, but take me some time :)

The sketch I posted saves considerable cost in framing. Throwing it out because the simple front gable sitting on a conventional sloped roof is too expensive would be like throwing the baby out with the bath water. You need to look at the larger cost picture rather than one element at a time. If the budget is really tight you need to be looking for ways to make the floor plan more efficient, make the footprint smaller, consolidate redundant spaces, reduce structural framing, and reduce the area of expensive exterior finished surfaces.

Resolution of small issues should come after resolving the larger issues. In such a process many of the small issues change or disappear. Often a tight budget will force solutions that are later seen as improvements.

I suspect the attic space will be used for HVAC equipment so it should be included in the conditioned space of the house (insulation in the rafter bays). The attic space will have an access ladder but for little additional cost it could have a permanent conventional or alternating tread stairway.

We'll have a washer, dishwasher, 2 showers, tub, and 4 sinks on the downstairs water heater so it was recommended that we use 2, 1 in the basement for the 1st two levels, 1 on the second floor for that washing machine, 2 sinks and 2 showers/tubs.

As far as cost savings, we just elminated 350 square feet from the previous plan, so we are looking to remove un-needed square feet, and I didn't say I'd throw out the whole idea, but adding extra gables on purely for visual is something that would increase the cost of the build.

I understand that this kind of system is the standard one offered by many home builders but there are now more sophisticated hydro-air systems available that provide, higher energy efficiency, greater comfort, lower operating cost, and require no flue chases, separate water heaters or separate heat recovery ventilation units.

In any case, if the attic contains air ducts it should be included in the insulted envelope of the house for the sake of energy efficiency.

The heat and cooling system will be a geothermal unit and I spoke today to the heating company and it also has a unit that heats the water. It heats it to approx 90degrees for no cost (its a byproduct of the system) so then the water heater has to only heat it up the small difference to where we need it, which is great, and need to take the plans to them to see about needing the 2nd water heater at all, depending on the other parts, it may also need the 2nd geothermal unit for the 2nd floor.

What does all this mean? That basically I am going to not freak on that closet or water heater until after it is presented to the contractors for their opinion on what we need.

I'm leaning towards just making Owen's closet a reach in, the only issue, I hate bi fold doors, but I think I could handle one (I think the guest bedroom in the basement has one right now too) And he is only 1 right now, if as a teenager he needs more closet space he could move to one of the other rooms as my oldest is 10 years older than him. Then I would plan on moving his room that direction and his door, adding a little more floor space. However, I'm not fully sure on that, as the bifold doors would eliminate that wall for furniture placement too, the room has 2 windows and 3 doors so it isn't the easiest to put furniture and his dresser currently fits next to the closet door over to the wall.

Awhile ago someone had mentioned opening up the kitchen more to the family room. My husband loves this idea (me not so much, my kitchen tends to be messy) Here is her rendering of it, it will have the fridge in full view too as it extends farther than the island. There is a header there due to a structural beam. Is this what you meant by opening and do you like the idea still? I'm warming up to it.

I am looking at switching the 1/2 bath and closet. That would allow me to regain a little of the space taken away in the dining room in her latest revision and I hate losing dining room space. I have to do a little drawing to figure it out though...

I showed the designer your pic Macv, she has changed the house, but it just isn't quite it. Does it just look funny to me due to the software? What do you guys suggest? She's trying, I'll give her that, and I'm sure I'm not doing the best job of explaining what I want. I'm wondering if the top roof pitch was less if that would solve it. I don't know yet, but its bugging me.

On the 2nd floor, we took 3 inches out of Owens room, 3 inches out of the laundry room, and put those 6 inches into his walk in closet. We switched the chase to the corners of the other closets, GREAT idea! I left the water heater alone for now as waiting to hear from the contractors on what is needed.

On the first floor, moved the chase, expanded the island width, and added 3 feet to the master. Just couldn't quite make it fit otherwise. Also, took out the tub. I have had a bath about 3 times in the last two years. We'll have the hot tub anyways, so took it out, but haven't rearranged the MB yet, I know it looks odd right now. We switched the chase, switched the 1/2 bath, which got me a longer dining room and good space for my hutch. I took out the narrowing she had in the foyer hallway. I didn't realize this, but the bottom of the stairs right now is a half wall, need to change that to spindles. DH and I disagree about the top of the stairs, half wall vs spindles. I wasn't able to enlarge the dining room opening, but oh well.

I must say, I'm very close to throwing out the whole fireplace. That thing is HUGE. I don't really like fire places, just use it on Christmas Eve for stockings. DH liked it, but it isn't fitting anywhere nicely.

We met with the bank today and all is finally good there. Phew!

She took me to the building center here today to look at materials. I was very frustrated, this is where you are to get cabinets, counters, and flooring. But nothing was priced. How can I tell if its a good deal? I'm not sure I want to get my materials from there. It was very frustrating, but waiting to see the prices before I get too worked up.

IMO shifting the second floor destroyed what little formality and/or cohesiveness there was to the exterior building shell; call it symmetry, balance or whatever you like, it's now missing.

Ironically, now that you have turned the roof structure, the second floor transfer beams required by the earlier design would now only carry the dead load of the non-load bearing gable end wall instead of the roof rafter load so most of the beams would have been doubled joists instead of LVL or steel beams. That was the intent of my earlier comment rather than to suggest that the second floor be shifted off center relative to the lower floor.

Shifting the second floor made the roof over the master bedroom side of the house considerably wider than the front porch roof so that roof can no longer "wrap" around the house and is now a complicated jumble of roof shapes.

IMHO the stiffness of the current exterior design is the result of the arbitrary placement and misalignment of roof eaves, arbitrary changes and separation of wall materials (i.e. the vertical siding and pent roof in the false gable), the absence of architectural trim (frieze boards, window casing, etc.) and no traditional separation between ganged windows. Windows also appear to be sized and placed arbitrarily.

I believe the secret of good exterior design is using one idea to reinforce or support another so some level of harmony and/or order is achieved. In your current design the overall effect is that of an assemblage of parts that do not relate to one another, kind of a Mr. Potato Head approach. I don't know if this is due to your designer's inexperience, the use of an unsophisticated CAD program, or both. Of course, from what I understand the design work from your builder is free (if you proceed with the project) so it essentially costs you the same as my advice. Perhaps you're are getting what you pay for in both cases.

You should be looking at this house in 3D. If the CAD program won't do that, you need to get one that does. It only takes an hour or two, will shorten the project design time considerably and provide a far better end result.

I know what you are saying with the cost of gables. We built a couple of years ago and I really tried to keep the roof line simple for cost purposes. The first home we built had higher pitches and more gables and I did not want to put my money there although I love interesting roof lines. Besides that a lot of old farmhouses are just simple 4 squares and they are beautiful homes...classic!

I also live in the midwest and attached garages are a must! Winters can be harsh! :)

As far a door issues in the upstairs baths...pocket doors are always an option.

When you are finalizing the master bath consider a private water closet...they are nice to have!

If the exterior of the home looked like a plain two-story (like you original inspiration pic) and then the there was a wing off to the side to house the master suite, it would be more like a traditional farmhouse.

Macv, you are correct, the design plans, specs, and getting all things bid out and ready to start totals $2000, but that is deducted off of the first draw after construction.

The designer has a 3D program which she said she was going to be putting this into now so we can see it. She is gone until Monday.

I will say, most every change she has done has been at my direction. I misunderstood about the 2nd floor comments so I asked her if moving it to line up on support walls would make the build cheaper. She said it would and moved it. I asked her to change the gables to face front as I liked the look of them. But it was nearly a square so I didn't realize it would create any problems structurally.

Back to the drawing board...

You may want to spend some time revisiting your inspiration photos and floorplans to reground yourself in your goals. Sometimes you need a mental break.

Another reason to put the stair there is to allow a decorative window on the second level overlooking the stairway opening. But that is not possible with the current tight second floor central hall layout.

Adhering to older conventions when they no longer serve a purpose adds to the burden of a house program which is often already overloaded with redundant casual and formal living spaces and the desire for large openings and easy traffic flow between them. I suspect it is the availability of internet stock plans and TV home design shows that has led so many homeowners to want one of everything in their home rather than finding ways to achieve adequate comfort in less space (assuming the budget is limited).

I'll show you a plan if I have time today that puts the second floor stair where the family can more easily access it and it provides an interesting divider between major spaces. You should be able to call your kids down to eat or to leave for school without using an intercom, walking to the front door, or yelling like a hog caller.

Keep at it, you'll get it right and kitchens and baths sell houses.(I realize you plan on living here for a long time but you never know....and kitchens and baths are huge investments)

PS, Is that a door that goes from the master bath outside?

I am quite intrigued by the idea of moving the stairs, I hadn't thought of that previously. I feel guilt for changing things again on our designer, but I can handle the guilt :)

I called our builder and had a long talk with him on Friday. I expressed concern that my ideas may be implemented without regard to structural issues. I pointed out that I know very little on structure and expect to be told if it caused major issues to do what I suggest. He agreed and we had a good talk. He is going to get together with the designer on Monday and go over things with her. He requested some pics of exteriors that I like, so I sent him several too.

Bella, I focused on the kitchen in the kitchen forum, not here. However, I am very happy with this layout and find it hard to see how it is too small. This kitchen is literally double the size of what we have now. This is the many times revised version we came up with.

The door on the master bath does lead outside so that we can get to the hot tub that will be there. DH would prefer I put the hot tub IN the master bath, but I just don't feel that is our best option.

Some questions:
- Will the exterior studs be 2x4 or 2x6?
- Would you prefer the have the downstairs laundry next to your master suite in order to avoid walking back and forth with clothing?
- Is your designer calculating interior (net) floor area? If so, she should calculate gross floor area measured to the face of exterior framing/sheathing. Builders use gross area to estimate cost; landlords use net area to estimate rent.
- How high will the ceilings be?
- What building code is in effect in your area? (The stair riser and tread limits are particularly important)
- What are the ages of your children?
- Do any of your family members have any special hobbies, activities, passions, or handicaps?
- Is there subsurface rock in your area and is it known for releasing radon gas?
- Are there any interesting or uninteresting views from the house or any privacy issues?
- Will basement storage be adequate or will you want attic storage space?
- Will there be outdoor living areas, barbecues or hot tubs?
- How often will guests stay and for how long? Are they likely to be elderly? More specifically do you have any relatives who might become dependent on you in the next 10 years?
- How will the "study" be used?
- Where will TV's be located?
- How do you see the "toy" space being used after your kids get older?
- Is the fireplace wood burning or gas?
- Will the shower be a combination tub/shower or just a shower? Do you care?

Some questions:
- Will the exterior studs be 2x4 or 2x6?
Since we haven't specified this I'd guess 2x4

- Would you prefer the have the downstairs laundry next to your master suite in order to avoid walking back and forth with clothing?
I'd prefer it be by the door, but if it was in our room that is fine too(we talked about extending our closet and putting it there once)

- Is your designer calculating interior (net) floor area? If so, she should calculate gross floor area measured to the face of exterior framing/sheathing. Builders use gross area to estimate cost; landlords use net area to estimate rent.
I have no idea Does it matter? They aren't billing me per square foot.

- How high will the ceilings be?
I will have to double check, I want to say we said 8, but it could have been 9.

- What building code is in effect in your area? (The stair riser and tread limits are particularly important)
We are in the country and only have to follow minimum county code. I've been reading the code and there is no mention of stairs, treads, or risers. They do say they follow the 2006 edition of the International Building Code.

- What are the ages of your children? 4 boys, 11, 7, 5, and 1

- Do any of your family members have any special hobbies, activities, passions, or handicaps?
No hobbies or limitations that affect housing. The boys like computer games and legos and we're requiring them to play outside more when we live there :) Planning on getting them 4wheelers etc... (to be stored in the outbuilding)

- Is there subsurface rock in your area and is it known for releasing radon gas? The particular land is a cornfield and has been for many years. We have been unable to get the crop off of the field to run our soil tests etc... but they did do a perk test in 2007 and all results were good (don't know if that would answer your question)

- Are there any interesting or uninteresting views from the house or any privacy issues? The lot is 5.6 acres. There is a row of trees along the North edge (master bedroom side) and there is a forest area behind our lot (backyard) but that is a ways away. We will be planting trees on the South side (garage) for privacy. Pool will be out back.

- Will basement storage be adequate or will you want attic storage space? Basement should be enough

- Will there be outdoor living areas, barbecues or hot tubs? We'd like a hot tub off of our master bath, a grill on the back deck (ignorning the one on the plan, we will build it probably a year later when we put in the pool)

- How often will guests stay and for how long? Are they likely to be elderly? More specifically do you have any relatives who might become dependent on you in the next 10 years?
We tend to have guests that stay overnight one night, sometimes two. We have guests 1-2 times per month on average. On occasion we have 8-10 guests for 2-3 days, mostly kids, but not often. The kids like to "camp" on air mattresses etc... then so no big deal. My mother died and my father would not consider moving in with me due to all of my children. My sister only has one and my brother has none (and they are both in late 30s) so I'm not getting relatives. My in-laws only move in if I move out ;)

- How will the "study" be used? My scrapbook workspace and husband's desk/office. I may finish off an area in the basement later for scrapbook area, but not for now.

- Where will TV's be located? Tv in great room, master bedroom, and theater room (perhaps one in toy room for video games, but no tv reception for that one)

- How do you see the "toy" space being used after your kids get older? When they no longer need it for toy space we could have it as a sun room, kind of indoor patio. Pretty common around here, my folks have one and we spend most of the time there.

- Is the fireplace wood burning or gas? I think we are going to eliminate the fireplace. It took up so much space and we light the fire once or twice a year. So, we're considering getting a faux fireplace down the road if we want one to hang stockings on.

- Will the shower be a combination tub/shower or just a shower? Do you care? In our master bath it will be just a shower, a double shower (heads on both narrow walls) I'd just soak in the hot tub instead of the tub anyways so pulled it out.

A little more info. I stay home and we are home a lot, especially with living in the country. The kids won't have friends to ride their bikes to etc... so we will be there a lot. We host many of our family gatherings here, but not overnight. The house is 3 miles from one level of school, 4 miles from the others and 8 miles from my stores I will usually shop at (groceries etc...) When the youngest is back in school I may work again (I was a school teacher but our now 7 year old was diagnosed with a terminal cancer 4 years ago. I quit my job then. He amazingly survived but I've never gone back)

I hope this answers things for you. Thanks for the efforts you have put into this.

I like to put a laundry near the clothing source since the travel distance is similar but it is easier without carrying a clothes basket.

The area calculation only matters if you are trying to compare it other other houses or use typical s.f. costs to give you an idea of what your house will eventually cost. Of course, it's always best to use what everybody else uses and that is the gross area.

If the kids share computers, and have friends over I suggest a loft in the attic since the space will already be already due to the wide rafter span. The access stair can be an alternating tread stair which takes up less room than the water heater which should also be in the attic. Keep in mind that attic spaces are much cheaper to finish than basement spaces, something that is taken for granted in the northeast.

I would try to avoid finishing spaces in the basement since it encourages the family to be down there while you're in the kitchen. They're not going to be living with you forever and what they learn in the Media Room will not necessarily build good character (sorry, I predate TV). Many of my renovation projects are for the purpose of correcting this poor family interaction arrangement. IMHO the basement should be for junk, the drum set, and pet reptiles but I wouldn't hesitate to put my brother-in-law down there.

I recommend a vented gas fireplace but the presence of a TV and a fireplace is a difficult design problem. I've done it so often that I have a few already drawn up and often just drop them into the plan.

I would design a house that gives the kids some privacy and flexibility upstairs but fosters family interaction on the main floor and space for "unpleasant" hobbies in the basement (mindless table top games, boat building, wood & metal working, reptiles, insects, rock & roll bands, motorcycle maintenance, trains, mythbuster experiments, rockets, and incendiary devices. I see the "toy" space as being potentially more important as a family room than the basement and would probably prefer to put the TV there rather than in the living room.

At the risk of sounding presumptuous, when you get to my age you know more than you wanted to know about family tragedy. I have learned that there is nothing more important or rewarding than watching your kids grow up. I used to take my boys to test drive sports cars just to be able to share something with them for an hour or two. I got such a good deal on one I actually bought it and my status in their minds took quite a leap. Later I realized my father had done exactly the same thing 45 years earlier.

Think of the house as a machine balanced for family privacy and interaction first and then figure out where to put your stuff like where the refrigerator and half bath should be. People looking for a bathroom or refrigerator are reasonably well motivated so they will find it even if it isn't in the most efficient location according to conventional wisdom. Walking never hurt anyone. This house only has to work for your family and the next family will inevitably make changes to accommodate their family. And so it goes.

When you get old you can put an apartment over the garage and keep the upstairs rooms because the kids will probably be back, I hate to tell you.

The little "pent" roofs seem to have been tacked on with no conviction. One even intersects the ridge of the bedroom wing.

The porch is too narrow to be of much use. You might as well leave the railings off.

Did she give you a view from more than one side?

I also wanted to see if I could design a house in a day. I discovered that if I had to design at that pace full time I would burn out in a month. It was reminiscent of design school.

I'm not happy with the bedroom wing roof and may have to consider turning the rafters but I think I can make it cost neutral.

It is funny how similar that is to my sister's house now on the main floor. VERY similar! Except she has the great room vaulted so her upstairs is very different.

I also don't think I'd like the window in the great room that looks directly at the hot tub. Perhaps it could be moved to the kitchen for a little cross-lightning from that direction.

And unless you had a reason to need so much closet space by the front door, I'd turn the larger closet to face into the study for storage there. It could also be a bedroom in a pinch.

Overall, the floorplan looks like a foursquare that someone added on to over time, which is VERY traditional.

The upstairs bedrooms on the right, by the drawers you have drawn in, is a circle. I assume this is a vent or a pipe of some sort, what are you seeing that being?

Do you happen to have a link to a picture of the stairwell you are proposing for the attic? I don't understand this. And I am not sure how feasible attic space is here, ready made trusses are typically used (thus saving money) and don't allow space for you to walk all around. I did mention to our builder to have the utilities put up there, though I have never heard of that done before. That has not been answered by them.

In front of the half bath on the first floor, what are those rectangles? Benches?

On the first floor in the wall with the fireplace, there is that same circle as on the 2nd floor, plus the vent for the fireplace, but what is drawn behind the tv? What is the smaller circle to the left of the fireplace?

We don't want the stairwell open to the 2nd floor, we're trying to avoid as much of the heat rising as possible. But, if we remove that on the 2nd floor, it is kind of dead space, unless perhaps we do put the utilities there if the attic doesn't work. But if the attic doesnt' go then there is the room where the stairs is too... hmmmmm

I sure wish I had this program to draw the few changes we've made to this idea. I've done it out on paper but it isn't quite the same.

I'm supposed to go meet with the builder and designer tomorrow. I am preparing what to take with me. I really like the stairs not by the front door. However, I am a weenie and this makes me very nervous to go yet again with such major changes.

My other concern is that this is actually 9 feet longer on the main floor, which should mean increased costs.

Uggggg, this is never easy is it? :)

Trusses are a waste of valuable attic space and might be difficult for such a long span although I confess I've never used them. However, I have replaced trusses with rafters in order to increase the living space of a house and that was definitely expensive. Would you put posts every 6 ft in the basement if it saved money?

The stair to the attic is an alternating tread stair as shown in the link below.

The rectangles are possible shelves.

The smaller circle is a drain from the master bathroom of the house from where I stole the gas fireplace drawing. There are 2 TV's because I can never predict where people will want them.
delete the one you don't like; both are on an adjustable arm.

I don't understand about heat rising up to the second floor; it's not a concern I have run across before. Since air will constantly be circulated it shouldn't be much of an issue unless you don't intend to heat part of the house. Have you discussed this with the HVAC designer?

The area of the house is exactly the same as the last plan you posted so I don't know why it would cost more. The major spans are a bit smaller.

The floor plan seems OK but I don't like what the large master bedroom area does to the massing of the house. I would like to turn the rafters and make this a dramatic Shingle Style house with major under eave space for the kids' rooms with skylights and that space would essentially be free. Then you could shut off he attic and not miss it (but I would still put a skylight over the stair). Right now the space allotted for the kids seems tight even though there are multiple spaces for them downstairs. At some point they will need to spend more time in their rooms, hopefully studying.

If you narrow the stair opening to he second floor or add a door, I would move the stair back to the entry hall where it won't be noticed.

You can do that for free with Google SketchUp or give me another day to get to it.

I have to laugh, I had not noticed that window looking at the hot tub... good point!

I also am struggling with the closet size.

I do not want the office to qualify as a bedroom as it would then be assessed as one, causing us higher taxes. But, it would still work as one, I could just use a wardrobe if necessary. I had planned on keeping 2/3 of the closet, but removing the 1st 1/3. This also gives me more wall space, I have a secretary that would look perfect there.

I think I'm going to cancel my meeting tomorrow with the designer at the store. She wanted to go over kitchen cabinets more, but A, I hate their cabinets, B, I may be changing their kitchen design, and C, I have a sick child and I'm a chicken and would rather do this via email than have to go to her face and totally change things.

One thing I really really like about this plan, there is no turn in the stairs. I HATE turns in stairs because I hate moving furniture around curves. And the curved landing always seems like such a waste of space.

By the way, the number of stair treads shown in your original drawing suggests that the first floor ceiling height is 8'-6" (assuming a 7 3/4" riser height). Is this the case?

I am having trouble with Google Sketch Up, but am working on it right now. Have never used it before so I just need to get over the learning curve.

I am not sure of the ceiling height, I was thinking they were 8 foot ceilings.

We were planning on being able to kind of close off the 2nd floor if/when the kids are gone. I'd keep it slightly heated to avoid water freezing in the pipes, but that was all.

I'm including pictures of my sisters, is this what you see this looking like? This is how it looks in my mind. There isn't enough room for my table in her spot, but the idea is the same, I think. I want to make sure we are seeing the same thing.

I think I have done it, I traced the plans onto parchment paper and have worked them to get everything we were looking for, including more closet space upstairs. I have to get them scanned in then will upload them. I am taking them with me to the designer now along with the pics I sent and one of the open stairwell. I am nervous, but I'm the one buying this, so that is what I will do.

Thanks so much for everything!!!

We are really stretching our budget thin and some things are going to have to be let go with budget. Am I better spending my money on better windows than wider framing?

All of our ceilings are only 8 foot, I did read if you did high ceilings that the 2x6 were also more important.

Perhaps energy_rater_la will chime in, but it's my understanding that if you use 2x6 with 24" spacing, it reduces thermal bridging, not increases it.

The closet space on the 2nd floor isn't ideal, I'd prefer a walk in that is crowded to a wall closet though because of losing so much wall space to a bifold door.

We are unsure about the water heater, may do a loop thing, which would make that a linen closet instead.

For the 1st floor, we are going to put the W/D side by side with a bifold door instead so we can get into the washer and dryer more easily with a laundry basket etc...

Also, we're concerned that perhaps we should slide the toy room over just a little farther so the fridge is proud of the wall.

The basement isn't set at all. My husband wants the theater room to be bigger so it will all be rearranged. Not sure how. We are likely going to delay finishing that until later anyways, but want the layout in mind so we can have the plumbing and wiring ready.

However, you've lost some of the important features of the plan I proposed, not that I'm surprised or offended.

I still recommend increasing the length and width of the kitchen island and allowing 42" of clearance at the counters instead of 48" but that is just my personal preference although it has worked well in a lot of kitchens so far. I would use 48" only where an oven opens toward an island.

I intentionally put the refrigerator out of the view of the living room and intended that corner to have wrap around windows above the sink. That requires a longer travel distance from the breakfast table to the refrigerator but a shorter distance from the dining table. I know it is easier to feed children in the immediate vicinity of the kitchen but you have invested in a formal dining room and because I have raised three kids I can tell you that it will serve your children well to eat there as often as possible when they are old enough to stay in a chair, you know, table manners, may I be excused, etc. It is one of the few times in their life when you can hold their attention face to face so it is really important to do it. When I built this plan before the family had no interest in a breakfast table; they always use the dining room but their kids are high school age. At any rate, the window at the sink should be a wider awning type window (operated with a crank) instead of the tiny double-hung shown on the elevation drawing which will be more difficult, even dangerous, to lift open.

I would get the stove out of the corner and allow more counter space between it and the sink. Unless you buy special cabinets that allow a stove to fit properly in this configuration it will result in awkward alignments of upper cabinets, lower cabinets, the stove, the hood. I've only seen it done well with high end cabinets.

I wouldn't use bi-fold doors in a kitchen; they don't work well and get beat up fast. You'll probably have to replace them in a few years.

Regarding windows, don't jamb a pair of windows together with those narrow little trim strips from the manufacturer; put two or three studs and sheathing between them so trim can be put there. The fake shutters are a waste of money because they add nothing to this kind house IMHO. The windows in upstairs bedrooms that are narrow in order to miss the roof below would be more attractive and functional if they were awning windows that match the size and placement of the upper sash of the double-hungs around the corner. Of course, this only works if there is another window that meets the emergency escape requirement. To me the 4 over 4 lights look inappropriate on full sized double hung windows unless they are only 24" wide. I would use 6 over 1 which saves the cost of one muntin per window and gives a nice horizontal visual element to the paired windows. At the back side windows I would at least add one vertical muntin to the upper sash. Sometimes cottage style windows (upper sash shorter than the lower sash) are slightly cheaper than equal size sash windows for the same opening dimensions (at least it's true for Andersen windows).

I would add a window to the fake dormer. There should also be windows in the main roof gable ends. It might also look better if the front wall was continuous with the dormer wall and there was no pent-roof (that little roof eave/gutter that sticks out below the dormer. This is a tough detail to pull off and it appears that your designer doesn't have clue about how to do it. There's something overly restrained about the current gable dormer and it would not cost more to improve it but I do like the shingles. It's a bit odd that the shingles don't continue at the gable ends of the main roof.

The upstairs toilet/tub room doors should open in to avoid injury at night and I would put the toilet on the wall that aligns with the study wall below to allow easier construction and better sound isolation from the dining room since that's the room where you are most likely to not want to hear a toilet flush when you have guests.

If the ceiling height is 8 ft. then depending on the size of the second floor joists (10" instead of 12" I-joists) the stair might be able to have 14 instead of 15 risers which might help out the upper landing layout. But be careful about floor bounce upstairs.

Make sure the plumbing stacks will fit in the first floor walls and allow room for insulation. That's not usually possible with 2x4 studs. Double drywall is also a good idea.

I would try to avoid offsetting the center bearing wall at the first floor and would try to keep the symmetry of the central corridor. I've built a similar plan and it became so obvious that the center hall needed to be formal that the contractor persuaded the owner to add arched openings at each end. I don't usually like arched openings in an open plan house but it turned out that he was right.