Lower proposed cost means there is no room for changes.

Would you be happy paying an extra 10% for 'anticipated changes'?

Yes!

"Yes!"

I do not believe you would have taken a larger bid to avoid change orders.

You would have taken the lower bid.

If you did not then have any changes you would have received nothing for the increased price.

Hire professionals, talk to them about the project, ask them for ideas of how they would do this if it were their house, explain any special ramifications you have (your electrician needs to know how many electronics you have in your entertainment center, talk to them). If you hire professionals and treat them like professionals, you get professional service at a fair price.

Or you hire low bid, treat them like children, and wonder why you get charged extras.

Your choice. One is cheaper, one is better value, you figure it out.

I didn't hire the lowest bid. I never treat anyone like a child. I hired the electrician who was recommended by the contractor. Why would it cost more to move a switch from one wall to another? There is no additional wire, no additional equipment, fewer holes to drill etc. If I switch a toilet for a model specified in the plumbing contract I pay the difference in retail plus 25%? Why? If I switch a compressor for a different model using the same air handlers, thermostats, etc., I pay for value of the new compressor plus 10%? Why not just the cost difference in the compressor? None of these things have been ordered or installed, they are just ideas on paper at this point. I would gladly pay an extra 10% to have the right to make changes for the actual cost of the difference!

One of the reasons we chose our builder was because there is no change order fee. He stressed to us that it is impossible to get everything in the initial contract so we should expect to change our minds and we shouldn't be penalized for it. I wonder why/how he is willing to work like this with his customers when other builder won't/can't?

It's been SOP for decades to charge extra so they can make extra monies. I think it is starting to gradually change in some areas.

yep...our guy knew that the plans were woefully incomplete, and really only charged us for things that they had already done, and we requested changed. if I wanted an extra outlet, they just added it in. We were warned about the dreaded 'change order' way before we even started to consider building. Definitely one of the reasons we chose him. He said he wouldn't, and so far he hasn't.

The time to discuss change order charges is before you sign the contract. Once you've signed, it's no good griping about it's terms. What did your lawyer say about the contract? You did have him review it, correct?

This is one of the most expensive purchases that you will ever undertake. Did you not create the product spec list to be able to get quotes? If you didn't create it, and the builder used stock products he's used before, then of course he's going to charge you more to work with more expensive products that he's not worked with before. He's charging you for the additional expense as well as the additional time needed to come up to speed on them. There's also the possibility that he will screw up the install because he hasn't worked with some choices before. The extra money for changing is insurance so that he will be able to replace those products if need be.

Products can appear to be interchangeable to the lay person, but they are not. Your air handler that you spoke of could have the plenums in different locations than the other in the original plan. That means that the system distribution has to be redesigned. The toilet that you want is perhaps a one piece, not a two piece? That takes two men to install because of it's weight. More man hours, more money. Change to stone tile from ceramic? Your floor has to be twice as stiff, you need to use a more expensive thin set, and you can't use certain ordinarily used products to clean up the grout or you'll damage the stone. More expensive products, more time, more money. There are a lot of reasons that changes cost you money, and many of them are fair charges, even if you don't believe them to be.

If you think your GC is going to rip you off, take their job and GC the house construction yourself. This isn't rocket science. This way you select your own subcontractors, and they work directly for you. You also select your own suppliers, etc. You don't have to gripe about chainging the toilet on the plans, because the plans merely show a toilet and you are the one purchasing it - no upcharge other than the cost of the toilet itself.

If you have an issue, the first step to solving it is to own it. Complaining about your GC is far to late to recognize that you have a problem, perhaps you didn't do enough due diligence when you hired your GC to start with?

"Why would it cost more to move a switch from one wall to another? There is no additional wire, no additional equipment, fewer holes to drill etc."

Are you sure about this?

When wiring is bid a layout that minimizes cable lengths is typically developed.
Any change means the layout must be altered, the amount of cable altered, and even the routing of the cables is altered.

The cable length estimate is used to purchase reels of cable, with some allowance for terminations at each junction box.

By purchasing in 500 ft (or even longer) reels the material price is decreased, and a single bulk purchase gets a price break also.
The cable and supplies are not being purchased at the local big box store (with significantly higher prices).

Saving a few feet has little impact, and adding a few feet may push the need for another roll of cable.

Non one wants to pay more than they need to, but the tighter a contract is drawn, the more likely it is to be hit with change orders.

Even discussing the change takes time and costs money, along with any documentation changes required by the AHJ.

Almost all the work I do is onl older houses. Some very old (pre-1850). I have always made it very clear to customers that the proposal is based on what is KNOWN from examining the property and the scope of the work.

Often older work is in worse condition that cannot be determined until walls are opened. Costs increase.

The crew is payed by the hour, if they are active working or waiting for a decision to be made and changes initiated.

What may seem like a minor change may requires my rough wiring crew to return after they had finished the job to the initial plans.
Time really is money when you are paying folks to do a job.

I can understand increased expenses IF something is harder to install, takes more wire, a different plenum, etc. If so, just explain the difference. In my case there is no difference. I am saying all this merely as a warning to people when entering into contracts with trades. They will quote a reasonable profit on the intitial bid and then use any change as an excuse to rip you off. My advice is to make sure the original plan is adequate or to discuss the cost of changes ahead of time. I was naive in assuming that the changes would be charged only the additional cost actually incurred. Not some random penalty pocketlining fee. In the end, these trades will end up unemployed as the reputation spreads which I will do my best to do. In the meantime, watch out homebuilders. There seems to be two types of trades these days. One that is grateful for the work and does a fair job and the others who are trying to make up for lack of work and gouge the few customers that are left. Good riddance to them.

Brickeye, on residential build projects I have never seen an electrical subcontractor go to that level of detail. On residential builds I see, they generally a flat rate based on square footage and level of expectation that we discuss, and then upcharges for any additions or changes.

Plumbers tend to bid based on number of fixtures; they count toilets, sinks, bath, shower, bath/shower combinations, whirlpool tubs, and basically prepare a bid on this. Do they count linear feet of copper, DWV, PEX, number of fittings - no. HVAC tends to bid based on size of the unit installed. Shteetrockers bid based on square footage. My custom cabinetmaker bids based in linear inches of cabinets.

I realize that none of these trades are going to comb over every detail to get their material takeoffs to the last inch, nor do I expect them to (commercial work is definitely different than residential market). Treat a residential project like a commercial project and you aren't likely to get any subcontractor bids whatsoever.

However I also recognize that on some plans, bidding this way leads to pretty substantial profit margin for them. And yet on other plans, bidding this way could lead to loss for them, and I think it is likely these plans where they seek to use change orders to actually turn a loss job into a profitable one. I have seen more than my share of plans that the architect/designer failed to consider any of the trades in actual construction and space they need for utility chases, plumbing chases, etc. and these projects definitely can lead to loss for them bidding using fast techniques.

I wonder which style of plan tubeman has here? Easy to build and profitable for trades, or difficult to build and labor intensive and potential slim profit margin for trades. I would certainly make it up on change orders too.

At the same time, I also know tract builders that all of the profit is in the upgrades, and you could purchase a basic tract house and install your own upgrades for cheaper than the cost of the upgrade to start with. As an example, one of the local tract builders includes standard refrigerator in the kitchen. Upgrade that thing to stainless steel and the upgrade charge is $3K. Fact is it is still standard size; the homeowner could purchase the house without the upgrade, move in, call big orange, slowes, or any retailer of their choice, order refrigerator, have it delivered, and move the spare to the basement to serve as the beer refrigerator, all for cheaper than just the upgrade cost (and they have two refrigerators instead of one). I am surprised by how many stainless steel refrigerators this builder includes in new houses (me, I just can't lower myself to that level). If this is what tubeman is complaining about, I agree it gives the entire trade a bad name.

tubeman -- I agree, and I don't. I got a lot of minor changes done for free (adding the plumbing for a second sink in my son's bath, e.g) and was charged a reasonable price for some electrical changes I made mid-stream when the owner walked through to see how his guys were doing. He had some great suggestions and I went for them knowing they were outside the scope of the bid. But I feel he totally overcharged me for closet switches -- 3x the cost of the materials, with no corresponding credit for the wall boxes and switches he therefore didn't have to use (shame on me for not asking how much before I agreed to this one). I left that one to my husband and he was (supposedly) satisfied with the explanation for the upcharge.

I was very wary of the potential for the "upcharge ripoff" before I started building so, other than letting myself get carried away with automatic closet switches (how cool are those!!), I ALWAYS ask "how much" before I agree to anything. Then it's up to me whether to go for it or not. There are some things I just have to have and others I just won't pay for.

Maybe I've been lucky, but I pay quickly, try (stress, "try") to be reasonable and not meddle. I've had a relatively pleasant experience with most of my subs and have gotten very good value for my money (with a few minor exceptions.) Is it my approach? Just luck? But I do know (and sympathize) with that feeling that I'm being ripped off.

Not sure if this helps at all ....

"Brickeye, on residential build projects I have never seen an electrical subcontractor go to that level of detail."

The required plans often have all outlet locations marked on them, and provide at least some idea of connections (what switch to what outlet).

Bidding wiring by the square foot is about as low a cost way of doing things as you can find.

No wonder every change is $$.

Wow, the only time I see that level of electrical detail on plans is when there is something special. Or when I saw the plans developed for an electrical engineer as the owner.

I might suggest that my Sparky isn't the lowest bidder, but he is good value. As to the level of detail he puts into his bids; well he certainly doesn't spend much time on them. I wouldn't equate not spending much time on bids as the same thing as not spending much time on the house doing code minimum installs. Sparky rarely charges for minor changes, indicating he has plenty of profit already built into his bids.

As to the plans for the electrical engineer client, expect that those went up about 30% over standard rates for headache charges. Too much detail in the plans also leads to upcharges as some clients tend to be especially picky and cause a lot of additional stress/headaches.

What you see in the bid is not usually all the work that was done.

If everything is very plane Jane you might be able to use a per square foot, but ignoring large loads is a good way to lose your shirt.

The normal 15 A and 20 A circuits are simple.

The large 240 V loads run up cable costs very quickly.

I agree.

Coming out of the commercial construction market, it floors me how informally residential bids are put together. Sparky gives me a bid based on square footage. He doesn't know where the service is coming in, he doesn't know how far away the air conditioner is, he doesn't know where the oven is, where the cooktop is, where the dryer goes. He doesn't know the owners wants a welder, air compressor, and a lift in the garage (OK those last three would be changes I would have to tell him I want when I ask him to prepare a bid, and if these were added later they could be significant change orders not just from the cable itself but perhaps the service required to run this heavy stuff).

The plumber is the same way; how many fixtures, not where are the fixtures located. HVAC techs the same way; build more efficient housing and they will take it in the shorts as they need to run ductwork based on the size of the house and not just the size of the air conditioner (around here, it is $X,XXX per ton, there is your bid). I just got a bid on framing that one of the factors was time to install windows, and they had it simplified to $XX/window. So I asked, is it going to take the same time to mount this big window than it does to mount a transom? So why are you bidding it $XX/window, and not more realistically? Perhaps my windows are bigger and you should charge a premium, or perhaps my windows are smaller and you should give me a price break. Didn't matter, the bid was the bid, and I hired them. They made money on the contract, no changes necessary.

At least in the commercial market, you know they are shrpening their pencil with the interest of making money on change orders. In residential, all bets are off.