Now here's the first floor with our modifications:

- The biggest thing is that we've added 4' through the middle of the house, making the family room, the laundry/pantry, and the garage 4' wider. Note that this 4' enlarges only the downstairs, and it simply makes the roofline wider . . . it does not affect the roof in a complicated way.

- The original bath is about 9' square. Making the master bath "age friendly" is an important issue for us; thus, we took 12-18" from the bedroom and enlarged the shower. That's a clawfoot tub in front of a window -- I neglected to draw in the small linen closet, then I wondered why I had so much space near the tub. Duh; please pretend my art skills are better than they actually are.

- We also took about 12" of the bathroom's width, making it something like 10' x 8' . . . and this enlarged the closet just a bit. We'd like a door to the pantry/laundry for ultimate laundry convenience, but the closet isn't particularly generous, and I'm not sure I want to give up the space. Mayhap I could afford just a pass-through for dirty clothes?

- The laundry /pantry is enlarged, and you can see that we stole some space from the entryway to "recess" the washer and dryer a bit . . . this allows plenty of walking space in the pantry. We have LOADS of kitchen stuff, so this pantry is a priority item.

- We want to keep our 42" round table, and we're going to build in banquette benches in the corner. We want to stick with the small table so it won't feel "too big" when it's just the two of us -- which will be most of the time. We'll have plenty of outdoor seating for . . . everyone.

- We're in a warm climate, and most of our entertaining will be done outside. I didn't draw in the large covered porch (we have one now and wouldn't be without another in the new house). We'll also have a pool.

- Lots of changes in the entry . . . and this is where I wonder if we're okay . . . We bumped the half-bath down so it shares a wall with the washer and dryer -- a budget choice. but I like the idea of having BOTH the front entrance and the garage entrance coming into the same area. The bench doesn't look like much in the picture, but I have a lovely picture of a bench, coat hooks, and a mirror up top -- and I already own the perfect mirror. I do see the big problem here: The two entrance doors "conflict" with one another. I'm thinking that people wouldn't be entering from both doors at one time -- am I being realistic here?

- What's labeled a den on the original floorplan will be an office. I removed the French doors because I really want the staircase to be open to a room -- I really wanted it to be open to the great room, but that isn't going to happen in this plan. Why do I care about this? Because I love decorating for Christmas, and I want a lovely staircase to decorate with greenery and white lights. We do want acoustical privacy in the office . . . so I'm telling myself we'll put in a pocket door between the kitchen and the stairs -- this'll close off the whole entry /office area. Actually, it's my husband who cares about this: He likes to go into the office and listen to his music LOUDLY; this is something he'd only do when it's just the two of us -- not when we have guests over, so I'm not concerned about this "cutting off" people from the powder room or the stairs. Am I being realistic here?

I'm open to thoughts on any of the above, especially the entry and office. I feel those are the weak points.

This post was edited by MrsPete on Wed, Oct 15, 14 at 15:08

And some changes to the upstairs as well:

- This upstairs is for guests, so we don't care about the computer area. But we did want the bathroom to be more than just "minimal" in size.

- Thus, we enlarged the bath, added a linen closet, and made the tub into a shower. The window in the shower is kind of a high-small type of window -- just enough to let in a bit of light. I think the roofline will prevent more than this small window.

- We made the computer area into a walk-through closet. I'm thinking that IF -- in our old age -- one of our children or future grandchildren come to live with us, this flexible closet arrangement would mean a person living in one bedroom could have a larger closet, which wouldn't hurt the guest room in the least.

- We also added a window to the "optional expansion" area, thinking that IF we wanted to one day make a bunk room, it'd be nice to already have a window in that spot.

- And we like the idea of some walk-in attic space.

Your entry is charming, I can imagine the bench and mirror! I agree, it makes so much sense to have one entry space.

For DH, how about a "cone of silence" for when he cranks up the music?

I'm not quite ready to retire, but my parents are staying in their home forever, and I might suggest plenty of counter and storage space in the bathroom for health care items. Meds, hygiene aids, maybe devices/monitors, etc., in addition to the HBA you use now.

Where will you pre-sort, and later fold, the laundry? In the pantry? Gee, I don't know. Machines in a small space create humidity. And where will the dryer vent to? Ours vented into the garage, now it continues all along the garage wall to the outside. It's a pain to clean the duct.

It's a charming home! I can already see the porch and staircase ready for holidays :)

So, I played with the laundry room. I made it its own room, with a door to the family room. Handy to your closet. You can sort in there, and have room to hang up unmentionables ;) You can fold while you watch Jeopardy (here it's on in the afternoon). And I don't think the pantry lost much.

It doesn't solve the dryer vent problem, and the furnace flue might be in the way, but I don't know what the measurements are, so this is just a "sketch". If it doesn't fit next to the flue, maybe that could be storage space for the garage.

Thoughts?

I think your version does a nice job of simplifying the original design in a pleasing way. I don't see a big problem with the entry/garage doors, and the pocket door idea sounds perfectly viable, just taking a couple more inches for the wall to fit the door and have electrical/adequate support for the kitchen cabinets/appliances beyond. On that note (I'm sure you'll be adjusting the kitchen anyhow), the fridge and range would be a little too close together for my liking. The only suggestion I have is to plan out your furniture. Because of the entrance and bathroom arrangement in the master, the bed would be most comfortable against the rear wall so you can see the bedroom door and both sides have equal access to the bathroom. Would the windows allow for your required furniture placement? In the great room, I assume the patio access will be between the breakfast nook and the fireplace. You also have circulation to the master against the wall, so see what seating arrangement this will allow, which might be further complicated if you're planning for a TV in this room as well. Also, durable/easy maintenance flooring would be nice for the traffic between pool and half bath.

Y'know, just looking at the garage, where cars will be parked, where the entry door is, and where you're likely to keep the garbage and recycling bins, will you be walking around cars all the time? Is there any way you can flip the plan so the door is on the same side as the driver doors, or does it suit your site perfectly as it is?

mrspete-it is charming - I expected no less. :D

I have just a couple comments based upon our new build. As bpath suggested the w/d and pantry and heat I think you need to consider that especially being in a warm climate (lucky dog). Our pantry houses our small chest freezer and a small mini fridge for overflow. They run and produce heat - they warm the space up much more than I expected. So in the summer I found I had to leave the pantry door open a crack or it did get warm/sticky in there. I *wish* I had a vent in my door or something. I didn't realize how well the kids were trained as they kept shutting the door like I would normally want and I kept opening it a crack to let the a/c in to regulate the temp and humidity in there.

Upstairs - I love that you have a shared closet there - genius idea. It creates a very flexible space for you if you need it to house something larger (or should it turn into a craft bedroom and you need a spot for supplies or whatever) and still allows for guests from either side. Awesome.

The combined entry is nice and efficient. We considered a plan similar but I was a bit panicked about my kids shoe/coat mess so I balked but you won't have that to worry about on a daily basis. :) I'm not sure how often you'd have people coming into those doors at the same time but it certainly needs consideration.

Looking at pbath's redraw - would you HATE having laundry and master closet access combined - so one door and one larger room? That would save you some space and be very convenient for putting laundry right away. I'm not sure guests would be going in the laundry room ever so you'd still have privacy. Something to think about. Ours is connected to our closet (no door between but laundry is accessed through hall and closet can be accessed on the other side by our master bath) and I do love it even more than I thought I would. But that's just what works for us. You could put the w/d on your bathroom toilet wall which combines plumbing and gives the dryer vent a shorter run.

This post was edited by Autumn.4 on Wed, Oct 15, 14 at 16:59

Autumn, something like this? It separates the laundry by putting it in a closet with (louvered?) doors--and you're right, the vent duct is shorter--but is technically right inside the closet, and the Petes also get a dressing room!

Honestly, I don't think the garage and front doors will be a problem.

bpath-yes just like that! Or you could also rotate it 90 degrees (or will that not work with the tub there?) with the dryer on that garage wall corner. Either way there should be room enough for linens as well. Sight lines are still good and they could have a door separating as you show, a pocket to the closet or nothing at all. I'd probably opt for nothing. If no door then the laundry entrance could even scootch a bit as well if that would help with laying out closet or linen space.

I don't think the entry doors will be an issue either but thought since they are close they do need some thought in case they ever have a barrage of people flooding in for some reason. ;)

You know I love banquettes...but they are not the easiest thing to sit on, as we age. My grandmother hated booths and always preferred a chair. That being said...have you considered a large banquette on one side, with chairs on the other three?

I know you like your table, but a round table with a leaf would give you more seating, when you need it...in case it rains :)

How are you planning to get outside? I added the door by the fireplace, but not sure that's the one you want.

I like the laundry moved, but think the guests might need to access it once in a while...so maybe access from pantry and closet? Also, short cut for midnight snacks! LOL

Since I know you REALLY like a staircase, especially during the holidays, I added a bit of decoration to yours. Hope this helps!

Oops...I forgot to add changing the garage, but I thought you did not like a front entry?

Also, if you flipped the laundry to the other wall, you could have garage access into that space, then through the pantry. Maybe pantry/mudroom?

The windows on the front of the garage are supposed to have the 'old world' shutters on each side and window boxes underneath...if you like that :) {{gwi:1506352}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Wed, Oct 15, 14 at 18:21

Here's the laundry/mudroom idea, but you could access the garage through here or the front entry. Maybe have a 'hidden door' to the closet (LOL) like one of those secret bookcases. Speaking of bookcases...there might be room for some along the back living room wall, if you like.
{{gwi:1506353}}From Kitchen plans

And just because this is so pretty (I used in on another thread) I thought I would include it here. It looks like pastel fireworks :) {{gwi:1506355}}From Pink kitchen

Mrs Pete - HVAC in the attic or will you have a basement? Just be sure to plan where that will go. We had planned an a/c closet in our upstairs bonus room and code wouldn't allow it in an open room. So, we had to move it into the attic (no basements here). Something we didn't want to do. We just wish we would have thought it out beforehand and planned a better spot for it. Just a head's up for ya.

There has got to be a way to switch that staircase and laundry room. There must! Plus then you could do laundry in a room with a window.

Wow, so many comments . . . lots of good thoughts, especially concerning the laundry room . . . let me take them one at a time . . .

- Yes, I'm loving my inspiration pix for the entry hall bench. And the mirror I have is unique and cool . . . and just the right width for a spot like this.

- Cone of silence? I don't understand. Regardless, one of the things I like about this plan is that the office is pushed far forward, allowing for privacy for a person in the office. My husband is kind of funny about the music. He THINKS I mind him playing it loud, but I really don't.

- Meds, etc. Right now we do keep medicines in the bathroom -- we have a small linen closet and a series of plastic tubs: Husband's medicines, Wife's medicines, First Aid, Pain Relievers, Cold Meds, etc. I'm not sure WHY we keep them in the bathroom. I'm thinking that I'll move them to the pantry, where we can access them close to the glasses and water. I neglected to draw in the bathroom's small linen closet, but it will have space for hygiene items, medical items, etc. Also, the vanity will allow for three drawers on each side.

- The original laundry room is 6'11" wide . . . and when I made it into a laundry AND pantry, I recessed the washer dryer . . . so there's space for wide pantry shelves AND a cabinet or shelf for folding /sorting. With the 4' added to the middle of the house, the room will be approximately 12' long. Just throwing out numbers there . . .

- Yes, venting the dryer IS one of this plan's shortcomings, and I'm surprised I hadn't considered it before.

- Yes, the right-sized front porch is one of the home's charming features!

- I'm VERY intrigued with bpathhome's sketch making the laundry and pantry separate rooms. This idea never occurred to me. My motivation in changing this area: I wanted a MUCH larger pantry; however, this still allows for a good-sized pantry . . . and it's still convenient for a person entering the house with bags of groceries AND it's super-convenient to the kitchen. Is this the right answer? I'm not sure -- I need to draw out numbers, but I'm very interested in this idea.

- Yeah, the kitchen and range WILL be close together. I've drawn it out to see the sizes, and while ideally I'd have another foot in that area, I think it's okay.

- Yes, I agree with the idea that the bed in the master would go against the rear wall. I'm not sure if I like the windows "as is" or whether I'd go with windows flanking the bed -- but the room is fine for either option.

- Yes, what is drawn as a window beside the fireplace would actually be a slider. I think that was on my first drawing . . . but I showed y'all my second one. Yes, my artwork was actually worse on the first one.

- What I'm imagining in the great room: Large built-in bookshelves against the bedroom-great room wall. Sofa and love seat floated in the center. TV above the fireplace.

- Definitely low-maintenance flooring throughout.

- I drew the garage (plus 4' extra wide) just as it appeared on the original plan, but I'm wondering about turning the doors to the side. I have ample space, and that would mean that when we pull in, the door would be straight ahead of both cars -- no one would need to walk around a car.

- Garbage would be . . . I don't know. But I'll consider that. Like laundry, garbage is a never-ending chore, and it making details like this easy is the main reason we're building.

- Thanks, Autumn. I do like charming.

- Venting the pantry . . . that's on my list now. I have a laundry /pantry combination now . . . and it does contain both a chest freezer and my college daughter's old dorm fridge (a.k.a., Hubby's beer fridge). We don't have problems with moisture, but the door is NEVER closed.

- When I was a child, the very old house in which we lived had a shared walk-through closet, and I always loved it. I understand that when my mom was a girl, she had that bedroom . . . giving her a closet of her own PLUS the shared closet. I wish I had that much closet space now. As you said, it makes the rooms more flexible. Since I plan to stay in this house forever, flexibility makes sense. As you said, these rooms may be used for any number of things.

- No, with just me and my husband, a messy foyer isn't really a big issue.

- I'm thinking I'd choose exterior doors with windows of some sort . . . but I don't think we'd too often have people trying to enter through two doors . . . without seeing one another pull up in the yard.

- I'm considering the laundry-connected-to-the-closet option . . . I am SURE I'd love the convenience. Two things prevent me from writing it IN INK on my plans: 1) With a pool, I'm thinking I'd like people to be able to come into the house and drop their wet towels straight into the washing machine for me to wash. But I don't really want them walking through my bedroom to do it. 2) If at some point in the future we have our children (or a paid caregiver) living upstairs, I'd want them to have access to the laundry room.

- I'm seeing that the laundry is, perhaps, the item in this plan that needs the most consideration.

- You can't vent a dryer into the garage, can you?

- I'm thinking our banquette will be an L-shape, which will allow for two chairs (three if squeezed a bit) on the other side. We already own the table, and it's one of those things that my husband simply love-love-loves. Right now, if we need more table space, I scoot my folding table up next to our round table . . . and I put matching tablecloths on them. Perfect? No, but I strongly suspect we're going to keep on doing it. I'm not going to be the one to tell my hubby that we could do better than this table! I'm afraid to ask him to pick between the two of us.

- Yeah, I meant that to be a slider door next to the fireplace.

- Yes! The first greenery on my stairs -- now where are my white lights? And a few nice ornaments. Or red bows. I'm not fussy.

- LLass, you may have the winning laundry-pantry combination! Maybe a pocket door between the closet and laundry. This definitely warrants further study!

- Boo-hiss to the easy route to late-night snacks path, but my husband would like one thing: He will definitely keep the afore-mentioned dorm fridge in the pantry as his beer-fridge . . . and this arrangement would mean he could scoot from the bedroom to the beer in his skivvies, even if people are in the great room.

- I'm not sure which direction I'd like the garage to open . . . but IF it goes to the side, old-world shutters are a given. You know my style!

- Second entrance through the laundry room . . . while it looks uber-convenient, I'm not sure I'm into it. I value this storage /practical area highly, and the door would cut into that space. If I did this, I think I'd choose to eliminate the garage-to-front-entry door . . . and that would mean we'd miss out on use of the front-door bench /storage area.

- Lovely picture as an ending note.

- No basement. Our soil isn't conducive to good basements, and -- unlike people up North -- we don't have to dig down so deeply to reach the frost line; thus, basements are expensive here. In this area, we tend to have heat pumps out in the back yard -- they aren't in a basement or attic.

- I thought about whether it might be possible to switch the stairs and the laundry room -- but I like the window on the stairs allowing light into the entry hall, and now I'm really feeling good about moving the laundry close to the master. Is it possible? I think that's a question for a professional.

So many ideas. Thanks so much. I must go digest them all. Thanks, and I'm very open to more ideas.

This post was edited by MrsPete on Wed, Oct 15, 14 at 20:52

("Cone of silence" is a reference to Get Smart, '60s TV show. When secret agent Max Smart and the Chief had to talk secretly, they'd lower the "cone of silence" around themselves. But it worked so well they couldn't hear each other, either.)

Re venting a dryer into the garage, no you can't. There is a filter you can put on the outlet, but your cars get all icky and I don't think it's code, anyway. So we have a veeeeeeery long piece of ductwork. Even with my vent cleaning kit, I don't think we quite reach the middle of it.

Glad you liked the laundry room ideas :).

Re the space between fridge and range, ours is 18", it's where we keep the coffee maker and coffee canister, and there's still plenty of room for a spoon rest, the soy sauce, and a glass of wine for the cook :). I've had less space there in other houses. You have puh-lenty of counter space on the other side, that's where you'll do your prep, so you are fine.

If you don't have a basement, and there's a heat pump outside, will,you have that flue? (I don't know how a heat pump works, does it handle heating and cooling air?)

Where will the hot water heater be?

I am only working off your first iteration and my cherished idea of moving the stairs ... I transferred your plan into excel to try to work with dimensions - each square represents 4". Pink, closets. Green, doors.

Advantages:
Window in laundry room, dryer vents directly to outside.
Pretty straight line from powder room to laundry room for wet towels.
Husband gets doors to the den so he can crank tunes.
Stairs in living room.
Mech moves upstairs.
Mbed closet gets bigger.
You could put frosted glass doors and transoms on den and pantry to get light into hallway.

Floor 1

This post was edited by robotropolis on Wed, Oct 15, 14 at 23:49

Floor 2 (overlaid over floor 1)

Disadvantage, one bedroom is clearly bigger than the other.
You lost a little bathroom space.
I gave you a closet on your bunkroom.

Another thought -- this would be pretty luxurious, but you could put a small stacking W/D in your master closet for day to day laundry. Dreamy!

Hmmmm . . . I had considered this very thing in my mind, but I hadn't sketched it out. I like it better than I had anticipated. Much better.

I hadn't anticipated that this would mean the master closet would gain the space under the stairs.

I don't like the pantry quite as well -- it's an extra step apart -- but it's absolutely within range of acceptable. It is less "fussy" than the compartmentalized laundry /pantry.

And until this thread began, I hadn't considered the issue of the dryer vent . . . and while it isn't a make-or-break, having a direct vent to the outside is clearly better.

One upstairs bedroom being larger than the other doesn't bother me in the least. These are to be -- initially anyway -- guest bedrooms. If one is larger than the other, I might use the smaller one (with the window seat) as the "nicer" guest bedroom and set it up with a queen bed . . . and if two full-sized beds would fit into the larger bedroom, it would be ideal for grandchildren. And if I could fit in those three beds, I'd skip the bunk room . . . though I think I'd still include the window. That window would cost very little in the grand scheme of things, whereas adding a window -- cutting into brick -- would be expensive later. This room later could turn out to be an office, another bedroom, whatever. But any room is going to need a window.

Excellent tweaks, guys! Keep 'em coming. You've taken a plan I liked and made it better.

This may be a bit premature in your planning process, but keep in mind where the master closet entry will be in relation to the bedroom door. If you usually leave the bedroom door open during the day, you don't want it to be blocking the closet entry when you come in with clean laundry or just want to change your shoes.

If the powder room were narrow, commode facing sink, it could be a bit narrower, improving the entry view to the lighted greenery on the stairs. (I had a powder like this once, but I don't remember the actualy dimensions) I added a little built-in between powder and stairs and moved the garage door. How wide is your bench/mirror? You could have a half-wall extend if you need to, maybe with a pretty column atop.

No bunk room means no closet, means you could have a nice window on the stair landing, means your hallway would get more natural light, which is a good thing. I love windows in hallways.

Moving the stairs is as I understand it a mega issue and takes the plan from being off the shelf to "inspired by." Before your modifications, the unexpanded upstairs lined up nicely with the garage/kitchen wall such that structural looked relatively easy. Here there's a large span over the kitchen and stairs basically only supported over the master closet. That doesn't seem trivial, but I know nothing about building.

Robo- Nice!

I vote for the first plan by Robo....but with the garage brought forward 4' and side entrance for cars. This would give you a bit more room in the laundry/pantry and in the front entry (for your bench).

You could still have the front porch and plenty of space for a rocker or two :)

One of the unforeseen issues is compact plans such as this one is to ensure that the stair will really work for your lifestyle. IOW, will the rise and run be comfortable for you and your family in the years to come? Will the width enable furniture and possible future walking assistance to be accommodated?

Designers of compact plans, such as this one, frequently employ the steepest stairs allowed by code. Some don't even pay attention to code requirements! And if you want first floor ceilings greater than 8', the stair certainly will need to be recalculated.

IOW, check the stairs and be sure you, your family and furniture will be able to negotiate the stairs at move in and for years after.

As an "elder citizen" I'd never have the master bedroom on the second floor--nor any other of the every day living spaces. Are you sure you and your husband want to climb and descend stairs for the next 15 years or so of your life? If you do, be sure they are stairs you can negotiate.

Good luck on your project.

Hi virgilcarter, I had some questions about stairs so I am hijacking mrspete's thread to ask them. (Ps her master is on the main floor in the back).

For switchback stairs, basically I'm wondering if a space 6.5 x 10 feet would usually be enough?

Width: Assuming a width of 36" for each stair and 6" leeway for any wall/banister in between the two flights. I get an interior width of let's say 36x2+6 or 78" (exclusive of any surrounding walls). Is this enough for a compact plan? Too much?

Depth: I've often seen switchback stairs planned in about 10 feet of depth (inclusive of back wall) which is what I showed here (roughly). I figure for 10 foot ceilings + 11" you're looking at 17 risers at a little over 7.5" per rise. So 36" landing, 4" back wall leaves 80" on each side for treads means 8 treads on each side plus a riser to the landing. So it seems to me that 10 feet of depth could be enough? Does this make sense?

I am asking because I like daydreaming by drawing cottage plans for myself but I'd like my daydreams to be somewhat realistic. Don't worry, if we ever find a piece of land an architect will be hired.

Yes, I agree that the bedroom door /closet door is a weak point in the plan -- but I'm thinking of a rarely-closed pocket door. I welcome the chance to recognize and address a problem, but this one isn't a make-or-break in my opinion.

I don't love a nose-to-nose powder room -- but again, that wouldn't be a make-or-break item. I can see the value in widening the entry hall, and I will keep this in mind.

Size of bench /mirror . . . well, the bench doesn't exist yet. It'll be a built-in; I have a perfect picture, and the exact dimensions can be determined from the hall's width. The mirror, which will be around eye level, is approximately 18" tall and 4 1/2' wide. It was my grandmother's, and it is currently above my fireplace.

Robot, you say you know nothing about building, but I think you know more than you claim . . . I know you're right to say that moving a staircase (even on paper) is a mega-issue, and it does change everything. You're right to say that the original plan includes a long, straight support wall down the middle, which makes building affordable and the upstairs walls easy-peasy. Moving the staircase would remove that support wall . . . adding the need for additional support in the middle of the house (steel beam, mayhap?). While moving the staircase LOOKS like a great choice, it probably includes more than meets the eye.

I've tried to verify your "stair math", and I can't. Though I'm a math whiz, I'm not sure I have the calculations down right . . . and the only online calculators I can find figure up length of straight stairs. I understand the concepts of rise and run, and I know they're not to be skimped upon. What you say seems reasonable, but I'm having a hard time with this. What I do know is that when I play with my online computer program, all stairs eat up a ton of space . . . and switchback stairs use almost twice the space of a straight staircase.

Now I'm wondering about whether a switch to an L-shaped stair (the first leg beginning in the office, the second leg being what exists already) would be a good idea. It would incorporate the staircase "into the room" more. I'm going to sketch this out for your consideration . . . but right now I ought to go to work.

Virgil, you're right to question the rise and run of the stairs -- stairs seem to be the topic of the day. I'm going to see if I can get that information from the plan people -- I already emailed them once, and they were quick to respond with the dimensions of the baths, pantry, and other spaces not marked on the plan.

Being in my mid-40s, I'm not quite an elderly citizen yet, but I definitely see the point in having a downstairs master. As we've gone through plan after plan, we've changed our mind on some things we had considered "must haves", and we have added in others . . . but we have never waivered on the downstairs master.

And I'm still concerned about the dryer vent.

Thanks, all!

Here's what I mean about the bedroom/closet door. If the bedroom door is hinged on the closet side, then when you walk In, you need to close the bedroom door to get into the closet. This doesn't seem like a big deal now, but in 20+ years from now when you need to "walk around the turn" instead of swiveling on the foot because your knees are sore or you've had surgery, it's a significant difference. And if you ever need a cane or a walker, it'll get so you just drop clothes on a bench in the bedroom because it's so convoluted to get into the closet. Don't wanna scare ya, but I see this at my parents'!

In the original plan, the closet door is not in conflict. In Robo's plan, it would be easy to just move the closet entry to the left. Lessens the hanging space, but adds space for robe and handbag hooks.

Or, you could hinge the bedroom door on the other side, but then you have to open it ALL the way to enter, and if you are ever using a walker or (briefly) wheelchair, it's more difficult.

Also don't wanna scare ya about the dryer vent. Ours is 20' with 2 turns. Now THAT'S scary! We clean it annually, for sure.

Ah, I wasn't quite "with you" on the closet . . . but now I see clearly. Yes, that makes sense. However, I'm also planning to steal about 18" off the bathroom -- it's a bit over 9' wide, and I'm cutting it down to 7 1/2' wide . . . so the closet door can actually scoot over a bit. Thanks for the clarification.

Yeah, that IS a scary dryer vent. How'd you end up being forced to include two turns?

Stairs can be controversial--some people initially (often unthinkingly) prefer to minimize them by making them as steep, narrow and short as possible. This is a false savings since it's only the stairs which allow access between floors, and provide the means to move people, furniture and goods between floors, safely and conveniently.

Stairs are probably used as much or more than any space in a house since they provide the only access between floors and everyone transiting between floors must use the stairs.

As one gets older, the easier the stairs are to negotiate the better. The same applies to stairs that are used by youngsters who tend to run and play without thought to their own safety around things like stair treads and risers.

Standardized house plans, from the plan factories, seldom design stairs thoughtfully. Some plan factories, especially for compact plans, use stair designs that would be difficult to dangerous for many occupants. Thus, stairs should always be carefully checked before considering purchase of a standardized plan.

Interestingly, many early Colonial homes had very steep, narrow stairs, often with winders at top and/or bottom landings. Perhaps folks were more physically fit in those days! Or perhaps the upper floors were seldom used!

Everyone has their own preferences and formulas for calculating the design of stairs. Building codes provide the "minimum acceptable" dimensions and should never be the sole basis for stair design.

My own approach is to have primary stairs a minimum of 42" clear, exclusive of handrails, and 48" is better, IMO. I prefer a maximum rise of about 7.125"-7.25" and a minimum tread of 11"--just my approach. YMMV.

Seldom used stairs (to attic or to basement) may be somewhat narrower, but careful consideration should first be given to frequency of use and the size of objects moved on the stairs.

Designing stairs is simple: 1) Calculate the floor to floor height in inches; 2) Divide the floor to floor height by 7" to determine the necessary risers--adjust calculation to have a whole number of risers (not a fractional number of risers); 3) the number of treads is one less than the number of risers; 4) multiply the number of treads by 11" to calculate the total run. Adjust the final calculation to account for type of stair design (straight run, switch back, winder, etc. and intermediate landing, if any) and to ensure that final riser and tread dimensions are suitable for the intended occupants.

The duct comes out through the wall about 3' from the garage floor, then goes up a few feet, then along the back wall of the garage below the ceiling until it can shoot outside. (It has to go up, otherwise it would block a door. If the duct were within the walls, that door would still be in the way.) At one time, it vented up through the garage ceiling which meant only one turn; we don't know if it went directly into the garage attic or on out through the roof.

I guess we see a lot of plans with long ducting, I don't know why my own scares me. Maybe it's only because it's such a pain to clean.

Here's Robo's idea...but I took the original plan and did a cut and paste. The stairs fit, the laundry is bigger and you could have a closet in place of the basement.

The master closet is not blocked by the bedroom door...and the fridge could be recessed into the 'pantry' area of the laundry room, if you like. This would give you standard cabinet depth by the washer, too.

Plus, if you need a washer/dryer in the closet (if walking to the laundry is ever a problem) I'd just add a stackable, as suggested earlier. You could plumb it right across from the closet door and tie into the shower area. Just a thought...

And of course, Christmas decorations on the stairs :) {{gwi:1506362}}From Kitchen plans

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Fri, Oct 17, 14 at 13:33

Virgil, I totally agree that stairs should be "right". They aren't something to leave to chance. I remember when I came to understand this: In the old FourSquare in which I lived as a child, we had a LARGE, lovely set of switchback stairs. I know they were an "easy walk".

However, in the same house, we had a set of stairs to the attic that were small and steep. I remember loving the attic . . . but being a little afraid of the stairs. My grandmother would frequently ask me to run up to the attic to bring her this or that, and -- although I always obeyed without question; we were that type of family -- I didn't like it, and about the time I started school I started to wonder, "Why do I hate these stairs, when I like the other set?" At first I foolishly thought it was because the staircase was "enclosed" on both sides, whereas the larger staircase was "open" to the hallway and felt more spacious. Then I thought maybe it was because I was always carrying things on the stairs, but I realized that didn't make sense because I frequently carried laundry up and down the larger stairs. But it didn't take me long to realize -- once I put my mind to it -- that STEEP stairs are unpleasant.

Regardless, using your formula, I see that we're golden on stair-length in the house. 7 and 11 -- numbers I've seen before -- work out just fine, and they allow for a 4' landing, which seems generous to me.

I'm less sure of the 42" width.

bpath, your plan looks quite similar to the plan I'm considering. It seems to me that MOST of the lint-y gook would end up in that initial turn. And the vent runs along the inside of your garage? Along the floor board?

L-Lass, your paste-up looks good . . . but I think I'm giving up on the idea of moving the stairs. I really do think it'd mean too much re-engineering for the supports, and I'm fine with the idea of the stairs "opening" into the den /office. I'm going to play with stairs on the computer program tonight, and I'll get back to y'all tomorrow.

Love the way you moved the closet door down a bit -- exactly what's been in my mind all the time.

Yes, recessing the 'fridge would be a nice detail.
Off-topic: I was at Best Buy yesterday, and WOW some of those new 'fridges are NICE. Of course, they come with nice price tags too.

Incidentally, I had moved the garage door "forward" -- that is, closer to the front door -- thinking that I'd like to consolidate the hallways into space and keep the powder room pushed back a bit . . . but I see that two different people have drawn sketches bringing it back to its original position. Any reason I should not keep it as I drew it? I do recognize that it means the front door and the garage door may "bump", but I'm figuring that we'll essentially never have people trying to enter through both doors at once.

Finally, thank you for including the Christmas greenery on my stairs. It makes me happy.

I like the second entrance (from the garage) opening across from the laundry. It's more handy to the kitchen and putting groceries away.

Your bench will be beautiful...but it's for company, right? If you all use it every day, it will be covered with coats, etc. This way, it will be available for anyone stopping by. Of course, with your warmer weather, maybe that's not such an issue.

The stairs...I LOVE them opening up into the great room. How often will you be seeing the Christmas decorations from the entry/office? How often from the living room? And the fireplace could be the focal point as you walk down the stairs! Not to mention the Christmas tree :)

And the laundry will have a window, an easy to vent dryer...and a laundry sink and pantry!

If it were me, I'd sketch up the upstairs (like you did earlier) and take all this to an architect. It would be worth the price for you to get EXACTLY what you want. I would. Here's a quick idea... {{gwi:1506364}}From Kitchen plans

Have fun with your sketches and a wonderful weekend!

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Fri, Oct 17, 14 at 16:42

While you've nearly decided to not do the stairs in middle of house instead of on side of house...
One more advantage.

You could tuck the powder toilet under the upper portion of the stair, minimizing your powder room space even further; potentially opening up the foyer a bit more.

If someone with "skillz" could sketch that for her to see the space, that would be great!

Kirkhall- Something like this?

And, the garage and front entry doors aren't hitting each other either. Those stairs really do look good there, don't they? :) {{gwi:1506365}}From Kitchen plans

Somehow, the entry sequence seems long, vague and rather undefined to me, but if it floats your boat go for it!

The power room in the last plan is certainly less desirable than earlier plans. Not sure why it would be changed. All that's needed between the powder room and the laundry room is a 4' clear corridor.

The bigger challenge with this plan and moving the stair is what it does to the exterior elevations and the need for a roofed and enclosed area over those stairs and landing on the second level.

It's so easy to get seduced into floor plan studies and ignore the exterior massing, roof plan and elevations.

Architects tend to think three-dimensionally while consumers focus on two-dimensions.

Wouldn't the stairs being in the middle, make more sense with the roof lines?

Having the bedroom over the garage doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but that's what is in the plan. Same with the powder room...it was a request. I think plenty of people think in 3D, it just seems that too many people think about the exterior before the interior.

If the plan doesn't work for the people, who live in it...the outside being pretty or a certain style is not going to make up for it. Since this is not an existing house, but a new build, it should be possible to do almost anything budget and lot size allow.

L-Lass, my intention is that the "welcome bench" would be for both us and guests. I do like the idea of only ONE entry point for the house, accessible from both the garage and the front door. No, I'm not concerned about a build-up of coats, etcetera. This house is being built for the two of us, and -- being Southern -- I own probably twenty pairs of sandals, two dozen pairs of shorts, and six sun hats . . . but only two coats total. I think my husband has the same. I don't think we can clutter up the place too badly with our four coats.

We use our office now on a regular basis, so if the staircase were open to that room, we'd enjoy the Christmas greenery every day.

Kirkhall, tucking a portion of the powder room under the stairs does seem like a great idea . . . and allowing that to stretch the entry a bit does make sense.

Virgil, I understand the entry is long (for a house this size), but how can a room be vague? I don't understand.

Yes, I understand the potential issue with the roofline. Right now the area over the middle of the house is only tall enough for attic space . . . and moving the stairs to that area would mean we'd need head room. To get the head room above the stairs, the roof would have to be adjusted . . . and there goes the "charming" look that I like on the exterior. I totally get that, and it's one reason why I wonder if it's wise at all to mess with the stairs.

The idea of moving the stairs IS attractive for several reasons, but I also like them where they are . . . for several different reasons, one of which is the simplicity of using what's already drawn.

Interior vs. exterior . . . clearly, the answer is that the two must work together in harmony. No one would agree to sacrifice one for the other. I don't like honkin' big roofs that overwhelm the rest of the design . . . but I also insist that everything in the house works and fits our lifestyle.

I am not sure if you caught it or not on your early plans (I can't remember what all has been said), but with the stairs in the original location, you can have a small storage area under the landing accessed from the office, but more importantly, you could probably recess your fridge under the upper 1/2 of the upper stairs.

In any case, don't forget about under stair space when space planning (so many of the plans assume a stacked stair with basement. We don't have basements in my area either, so I am always thinking about that space under the stairs).

mrspete-our stairs are similar but turned so the entry is into the living room. I really like how you have them turned like that with the pretty view there but the entrance not flowing into the living room - even though it won't be high traffic for you as an empty nester.

Just a side comment since we have a 1 1/2 story also and our kitchen entry stairwell is similar to this plan - there is a major support beam that runs from the kitchen above the fridge all the way to the other side of the house. It spans the whole length of it. I mention it only because I wanted our stairs even more open than they are but we couldn't do it because of the support for the 2nd floor. So from our main floor to go up (we also have a down) we have a banister in the middle split part that goes up to about stair 5-6 then it's wall for the last 2 and then wall the rest of the way (u shaped stairs). So with the stairs being so important to the feel of the house for you checking with somebody before you get to set on paper might be a good idea so there aren't any devastating surprises. ;)

As for ours - at first I didn't think we could do any so I was thrilled to have just what I have got and it does look nice and let some good natural light through. It will be our first Christmas here and I can't wait to decorate the mantle (north country so we use the fireplace and it's already been turned on for the season) and the few spindles I have.

I am jealous of your 2 coats. Seriously.

I wonder if Virgil means 'long and vague' from the guest coming in the front door perspective. Your living spaces are mostly at the back and it takes a bit, passing through utility (maybe that is vague?) parts to get through to it. I don't think that's a problem and if it fits the way you live then go for it. We are pretty casual so that wouldn't bother me at all. I actually didn't even notice that until I read his comment and then went back to look again and see what he could be referencing.

Mrs Pete wrote: "...Virgil, I understand the entry is long (for a house this size), but how can a room be vague? I don't understand..."

Mrs Pete, place yourself as a guest or owner at the front door, and then transiting from the front door through all of the initial entry spaces to finally arrive at the living/family space.

That journey is ill-defined and there is nothing in the process that is positive or rewarding other than finally, only finally, arriving into the living/family space.

Enroute from the front door one encounters doors, spaces and changes of wall plane to the left and right, again and again. The corridor space widens, narrows, widens--on and on.

One can only wonder what all the doors and spaces must mean and where they lead. Are these important or not? Why must I travel through such spaces to reach the important spaces in the house? It seems so thoughtless and unnecessary...

This is the sort of thing that a consumer may not even recognize, but it's the thing that every experienced architect quickly sees as a major element in a bad design.

The entry sequence in a well designed house is logical, provides positive images and encourages visitors and owners alike. Such an entry sequence not only rewards visitors traveling from the front door, but it also enables them to quickly and positively reach the home's major spaces.

In these sketch plans the entry sequence is simply utilitarian at best, and the only encouragement is to close one's eyes until finally arriving into a more pleasant and inviting space.

Again, as I said earlier, if none of this matters to you then carry merrily on. On the other hand, if you are sensitive to good design, for you and your guests, then carefully consider what visitors to your house see and experience, making these as positive and memorable as possible.

It's the difference between shelter and thoughtful good design.

Good luck on your project.

This post was edited by virgilcarter on Sat, Oct 18, 14 at 23:03

Oh, yes, Kirkhall! Also living in the land of no-thank-you-we-don't-do-basements, I noticed the storage space under the stairs. Yes, it will either be a large oddly-shaped closet, OR a part of it will open up into the office/den. I won't let it go to waste.

I wondered about the 'fridge. That would be nice.

Thanks, Autumn, for the note about stairs. With a support wall 3-4' away, I don't see why another support wall in the middle of the two stair legs would be necessary . . . but I'll be sure to clarify this. In my imagination, I'm seeing railings between the two stairs (and between the stairs and the office/den), allowing light to fall in from the staircase window.

Virgil, okay, I see what you mean by "vague" . . . and perhaps I'm not "sensitive to good design", but I'd argue that the office/den is open to the entryway. It's a 10x10 space (note that MY drawings remove the French doors, opening the space and alleviating some of the narrowing-and-widening that IS a problem in the original design), and I'm thinking this office/den be a small cozy spot with built-ins for books . . . possibly a second fireplace, possibly a fake fireplace? And this area'll be open to the staircase, so it'll be getting light from both the east front windows and the south over the stairs. It'll have small-but-comfortable-seating -- maybe just two overstuffed chairs? I'm thinking this'll be a welcoming area visible to that guest walking in the front door.

Then, yes, the main areas of the house are located down the hallway, which is long in relation to the other areas of the house . . . but which has a good sight line towards the (glass) back door and into the back yard. Three doors in the hallway.

Another thought occurs to me as I write about the direction of the sun: I didn't mention that we're looking at flipping this house over. To clarify, the kitchen window will face the South, and the back of the house will face the West. Does this give anyone any concern?

It would be nice if you could see straight to the back living room fireplace from the front door....and it's so close....thinking...

It would be nice if you could see straight to the back living room fireplace from the front door....and it's so close....thinking...

This is beating a dead horse, but for anyone still interested in "entry sequences", a study of Frank Lloyd Wright houses will prove interesting. In a great many of his house designs, one would enter the home and be forced to turn at least one 90-degree angle between the front door and the main living space!

Frequently, his designs required visitors and family entering the front of the house to make at least two 90-degree turns before reaching the main living area.

Such an entry journey forced folks to first see one specific design vista after another, and the journey might often be "squeezed" either horizontally in deliberately narrow spaces or "squeezed" vertically in reduced height spaces before arriving at the main living area which would then open both horizontally and vertically in much greater dimensions, making sharp contrast to the spaces just previously traversed. The "small space-large space" formula for spatial contrast was something he often employed.

Mr. Wright also often made good use of the diagonal to make spaces appear to be even larger than they actually were. To do so, he would place the entry to the living area in one corner of the space, and force people to gaze diagonally across the space before entering. The diagonal view of the space, of course, would be the longest possible view of the space.

These are the sorts of experienced design tricks that one may not perceive looking at a two-dimensional plan, but they are highly effective when one is actually in the three-dimensional space itself.

Thus, for this plan (or any plan), it's always important to think about and visualize the travel sequences and refine the design so as to maximize the positive spatial experiences of movement throughout the entire design, but especially beginning with the entry sequence--where first impressions are formed.

Good luck on your project!

Diagonal views...yes.

Two 90 degree turns to find the living room...not so much.

While I know many architects love FL Wright (my uncle included) I am not as much of a fan. Everyone has different tastes, but I prefer more traditional entries, where the guest is welcomed, but it's still clear where they are going.

As for Mrs. Pete...her plan has the study completely open to the hallway, with the stairs coming off the study/entry. Very pretty, but no window for the laundry or easy venting. That is why we are trying 'moving the stairs' in these other plans.

That being said...the study becomes the welcome area of the home. The entry/study is where people gather and how the study functions will make a difference in how welcoming the entry may feel. Mrs. Pete's description makes me think her study/entry is going to be wonderful :)

My SIL has a small entry with french doors into an office. Her office is also now their guest room, so not that great for first impressions. You then walk past her kitchen into open great room...and I'm not a fan. It would be much nicer if there was a welcoming area as you walk in...someplace to have a cup of tea or visit, especially if the 'great room' is either messy or has TV blaring.

Again, just my two cents. Everyone has a vision in their head of what they want...and many times the blueprints do not show the style, detail and feeling that the final rooms will reflect. That's why inspiration pictures can be such a help. And they remind owners that those architectural details in the picture should be copied, to get the same feeling in their space.

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Mon, Oct 20, 14 at 16:54

You know, I don't really like Frank Lloyd Wright's work much either. Too modern for my taste, though I do like the built-ins, and I do understand that he's essentially the father of the modern house.

I agree with you, L-Lass, that diagonal views are good but 90 degree turns in the entryway sound like -- well, a bit like the Emperor's New Clothes.

If that means I lack taste, so be it.

Virgil, I'm very open to seeing examples of more appropriate entries, especially those in modest-sized houses.