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m_n_a

Is there such service as quality inspection?

M_N_A
10 years ago

How do you ensure quality of your built? How do you avoid contractor cutting corners and not doing things right?

the city inspector would only check so much. Is there some consultant one can hire to inspect the construction on regular basis? I presume the architect could help to certain extent, but he won't know all trades' detail work, right?

will home inspector (hired when selling/buying a home) do such work? will the service worth the money?

thanks!

Comments (18)

  • PRO
    Epiarch Designs
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    your architect would ideally be the person to do that. Most residentail jobs they use the architect only for design and drafting, but few seem to include in their scope for construction inspections/assistance. All commercial jobs we do that, and go to sites for bi-weekly meetings and other times inspections are needed. Most architects should know the requirements for all trades on residential. Commercial is a different animal. We have our engineers on site with us as well.
    local inspectors only look for code compliance, not if your build is sloppy or incorrect.

  • renovator8
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Who does the architect work for and what is his/her level of experience? Do you already have a contract with the builder?

  • bevangel_i_h8_h0uzz
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    If your architect doesn't provide building oversight (including quality inspections) then you should definitely hire a third-party building inspector. Mine was worth every penny I paid.

    However, you do not want to hire the typical "real estate inspector" who looks over finished houses before they are bought/sold. You want someone who knows the construction business inside out and upside down. Unless you're in the central Texas area you won't be able to use him, I'm linking to the website of the fellow I used (Glen Davis d/b/a Eagle Inspections) so you can see the kinds of qualifications you probably want to look for in hiring a third party inspector.

    And BTW, if you haven't signed a contract yet, be absolutely sure that it includes a clause not only giving you the right to have the house inspected by a third party inspector (at your expense) but that also REQUIRES the builder to make any changes and fix any problems that the third party inspector points out regardless of whether or not the city inspectors have approved things. City inspectors are only looking for code violations - not simple piss-poor building like walls that should be parallel to each other but aren't! And worse, city inspectors often don't catch a LOT of code violations.

    BTW - it cost me about $400 per inspection and the inspector spent at least 3 to 4 hours at my house on each inspection pointing out issues and discussing with my builder EXACTLY what he needed to do to fix things. He then followed up with an extensive written report and also had me send pictures and videos to him after builder said he'd fixed things so that the inspector could tell me whether or not the issue had actually been fixed.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Construction inspector that I highly recommend.

  • M_N_A
    Original Author
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    thanks all for your comments.
    My architect does provide construction supervision service which provide certain level of benefit. But I don't expect him to get dirty and crawl to every nook and cranny to inspect.

    I found this blog talking about issues found in new construction inspection. I am not sure if architect is at such level or so thorough in finding errors like that.
    http://www.structuretech1.com/2012/09/new-construction-home-inspections-part-ii/

    bevangel what you mentioned is EXACTLY what I am looking for. and the cost seems very reasonable. Too bad I am not in the area. will use the key word to do more search.

    BTW, how many inspections did you do and in what phases?

  • bevangel_i_h8_h0uzz
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    We had the engineer who designed our foundation do a pre-pour and post-pour foundation inspection separately from the guy I mentioned in my previous post.

    Glen did the framing phase (aka pre-drywall) inspection and the final home inspection for us.

    BTW - one problem that phase inspections can't catch is a poor job installing batt insulation . That is because the pre-drywall phase inspection has to happen before insulation goes in (so they can see electric wires, joist hangers, plumbing pipes, etc.) and then the insulation job gets covered over with sheet-rock before the final phase inspection.

    Insist that ALL foaming around electrical boxes and to fill gaps too narrow for batt insulation be completed before they start putting any batt insulation in place.

    And then, don't allow any sheet-rocking of walls until all battt insulation is in place and you have personally inspected it. Fortunately, you don't really need a third party inspector to do this for you because it is really not that hard to see what well-installed insulation job is SUPPOSED to look like as compared to a shoddy job.... if you know what to look for. You may need to pull a few random pieces of batting out to look behind them to see if batting has been properly tucked behind wiring (it's easy enough to put back) but most of the worst mistakes are visible at the surface before sheetrock covers it over.

    However, unless your city requires an insulation inspection, GCs will sometimes have sheet-rockers and insulation installers all on the job at the same time (and they'll often argue that doing anything else will slow down the work.) But, if gaps are left in the insulation or pieces are shoved in willy-nilly instead of being fitted into place properly, the homeowner will be no wiser unless/until he starts noticing spots on his exterior walls that just feel a lot hotter or colder than other parts of the wall. But even if the homeowner never notices the hot/cold spots, he WILL be paying higher heating and cooling bills than he should be.

    Here is
    Part 1 of a YouTube video that shows how to install batts correctly. Then, Part II shows, using infrared photography, the difference it makes when batts are not installed correctly.

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    check with www.resnet.us for an energy rater with experience in new construction. I've done several quality assurance inspections for homeowners in my area.
    usually open wall with insulation pre drywall is an intermediate inspection that you may pay an extra charge for. at the same time of this inspection the heating system is ususally installed, so inspection of ducts etc can be done at this time also. other problem areas like recessed lights ( ic instead of icat) flashing of windows, air sealing details are all ongoing and incorperated into this intermediate inspection.
    some raters blower door test the houses at this point..others after drywall is installed.
    talk with several in your area to find someone you are comfortable with and define your needs.

    best of luck.

  • PRO
    Epiarch Designs
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bev- hate to say it, but you are already in the wrong by using batts to begin with. you think a tiny spot in the wall missed with batt is making a big difference? how about every 16" where there is 0 insulation rather 1.5 space of r1 for the stud? Or the headers? sills?
    Typical new home construction is a thermal bridge nightmare to the point where you can feel cold spots almost anywhere.
    Batts also have 0 air sealing abilities which robs energy far more than r value of the wall. in fact, air moving through batts further reduces the already poor insulating quality of the product. most new homes with 2x6 faming have whole wall factors of about r14 or 15 at best. A code min air test of 5 or 7 ach @ 50 pac will reduce that to closer to r11-12 with air leakage factored in. Ideally this number is 3 or below. I typically shoot for 2 or below.

    A better recommendation is a PRE INSULATION inspection. I always perform one. It identifies leaks in the exterior shell and penetrations. All penetrations in the shell, ceiling, ceiling wall framing, etc gets sealed with caulk or foam. Yes, this means every single electrical wire or plumbing pipe that goes through the top plate needs sealed. cans and lights need sealed. Air tight cans are still not air tight, so I have them wrap the can with batts and then spray foam a cocoon around it. Or you can go old school and build a box enclosure in the attic and seal the box. Obviously very few home owners like to spend money on things they can not see, so this is always a tough sell. But I have never had anyone unhappy later about adding additional air sealing/insulation.

    At that point, you can put anything inside the wall and it will yield closer to the r value advertised. My recommendation is of course to use blown produces such as dense pack or wet blown cellulose or blown fiberglass. it is typically a small upcharge but does a much better job of filling around everything like a batt never can.

  • User
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The best quality inspection that you can have is to hire a builder with integrity instead of trying to spend a bunch of money playing "gotcha" after the fact when the low cost bidder screws it up. Hire someone who knows what they are doing in the first place. And takes pride in doing it well.

  • bevangel_i_h8_h0uzz
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Actually lzerac, I'm not "wrong" so much as perhaps not detailed enough about everything that my framing (pre-sheetrock) inspector looked at. (I do understand about thermal bridging although there is not all that much that a pre-insulation inspection can do to reduce thermal bridging in a stick-built home once it is framed up. I think you'll agree that efforts to reduce thermal bridging in any meaningful way have to be incorporated into the framing design.)

    The main thing a "pre-insulation" inspection such as you advised can deal with is air infiltration and I totally agree with you that that needs to be done. However, if the right person is hired for the framing phase inspection (i.e., pre-sheetrock inspection) he will include all the services you mentioned as part of a "pre-insulation" inspection in his framing phase inspection.

    In fact, my inspector DID point out that every penetration to the exterior needed to be sealed and he marked about a thousand of them with blue tape for my GC the first time he came out to inspect. He also checked (although I had forgotten this until I reread his report) that the recessed lights used in my build were ICAT lights.

    I also did not mention in my post above that I wound up firing my GC after my phase inspector had come out to do the framing inspection THREE TIMES and kept finding that while GC had fixed many of the more egregious items, he was continuing to simply ignore many other items.

    Although there were a lot of other reasons for firing my GC, one of the many things he did that pushed me toward that decision was that, instead of actually sealing the penetrations my inspector carefully pointed out, my GC went around and simply pulled down the blue tape markers and then tried to tell me that he had sealed everything up! The inspector had used blue tape to mark spots that needed to be sealed/caulked because, by this point in my build, the studs had so many sharpie notes about other things written all over them that marking air infiltration points with additional sharpie notes would simply not have been noticeable.

    Anyway, after I fired my GC, and before I hired someone else to install the insulation, I personally went around and caulked or foamed every single wire and pipe penetration; every single point where two pieces of sheathing did not fit together quite perfectly; every extra nail hole where the hardi installers had missed the studs; around and behind every electrical outlet; and into every gap between studs that was too small to fill properly with batt insulation; etc., etc., etc. Once those things are done, then making sure that fiberglass batt is installed correctly does make a major difference in how well it functions. Don't you agree?

    If by saying that I was "in the wrong by using batt insulation" you merely meant to point out that there are more efficient wall insulators than fiberglass batt available, I will grant you that point. However, not every home builder can afford the additional cost of foam insulation. In our case it was the difference between $12K for fiberglass batt or $48K for closed cell foam. We calculated that even if we saved $300 month off our energy bills, it would take us ten years to reach payback so we chose to stick with fiberglass batts. And, given that our energy bills since we have moved in three years ago have averaged under $300 per month and that includes all the things like propane for cooking and bathing and electricity for the lights and fridge and computer that would still be the same no matter how well or poorly the house is insulated, there is no way we would possibly have saved $300 per month. At most, MAYBE we'd have saved $100 per month if we'd gone with closed cell foam...which would have given us a payback period of thirty years! Frankly, I expect to be dead or in a nursing home before then. So overall, I think we made the right decision for us in choosing fiberglass batts.

    However, if one chooses to use batt, it does need to be installed properly to get maximum insulation. Don't you agree?

    Thus, my suggestion that OP personally verify that batt insulation is installed correctly because a phase inspector will not have a chance to do this for her was, I think, good advice.

    P.S. OP, I do apologize for lzerac and me taking over your thread to turn this a discussion about insulation methods. But perhaps there is still useful info here in our discussion for you.

  • renovator8
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Experienced design professionals should be able to find deficiencies without crawling into tight spaces not that they wouldn't. These things are surprisingly predictable.

    There are many variables to be considered in the design of a house including quality control and assurance procedures, energy conservation methods, the owner's budget and the project location. Hashing these issues out in a forum is often not productive.

    Every project is different, every design is different, every designer is different, every owner is different; there are few absolutes and the most important consideration should always the owner's happiness not yours. No one will claim on their grave stone that they used less energy than their neighbor.

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    This is a great thread topic M_N_A. We appreciate the info regarding when to get independent inspections. Also, wondered about Izerarc's statement below:

    "My recommendation is of course to use blown products such as dense pack or wet blown cellulose or blown fiberglass. it is typically a small upcharge but does a much better job of filling around everything like a batt never can".

    Can you jplease give us a bit more info, Izerarc, regarding the pros/cons of these methods vs bats? Which one of these do you usually recommend? Like bev, I don't want to wait 10 years or more for a pay back.

    Carol

  • renovator8
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    The mechanically blown fiber insulations mentioned can reach a density of 3.5 lb/cf which is better than hand fitted batts in terms of r-value and air-infiltration. Whether the additional cost is justified depends on your market, climate and budget. Generally they are a quick payback in a cold climate and greatly preferred. In my experience, Dense Pack cellulose is preferred where it is available.

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Renovator8. After your post, I started reading up on dense pack cellulose. I would imagine it would have a quick pay back as we are in southern Ontario, Canada. I am going to get that priced out vs batts. I assume this would not be a DIY job to install?

    My apologies to the OP for deviating a bit from the main question.

    Carol

  • renovator8
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Dense pack cellulose is sprayed by an approved installer through a net that covers the studs. Then it is pressed flat with a roller.

  • PRO
    Epiarch Designs
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    bev
    first off, good job on your air sealing. that is a very important first step of any enclosure, and like you implied with your builder, most builders tend to not care of understand the importance of it. A few months ago I co-presented an energy seminar and changes between IECC 2009 and 2012 and expectations of code enforcement to a large group of local builders. The responses were ridiculous. So many eyes rolled, snickers, etc. out of the group. That was, until I of course mentioned it can put more money in their pocket if they encourage home owners to upgrade and that qualifies builders for tax credits in some cases. Many are set in their ways and changing with the times are not always easy. Why a builder would not want to deliver the best product for their client has always amazed me, so I am around what you describe nearly daily. But since your original response focused on batt install, I wanted to point out the importance of that minor compared to the air sealing.
    I also pointed out batt as a sub par insulating method with other options on the market. Insulating is typically 3% or less of a total build depending on what kind is used. The interesting thing about this is a granite counter installation can be higher than this. How does this make sense?
    My efforts are to point out other options owners should ask about with their builders or in general. More focus (IMO) should be put forth to increase the values of the exterior shell. It is typically worth it depending on what methods are used.
    You mention batts can obtain max insulating ability if installed correctly. Yes, this is true of course. However the difference between a so so install and a perfect install (impossible btw) is r1 -2 at best. The difference between a so so install of batts and a blown fiberglass for example can be pushing r5 or better.
    I also never mentioned the use of expanding foams as a wall insulation. As you mention, they have high upfront costs, and the value in a wall is typically not there if other air sealing methods are used that cost a lot less. The r value of open cell is less than blown fiberglass, and nothing is done to reduce thermal bridging. (in either in all fairness). You can see in most any of my posts on here I recommend not using expanding foams for walls and sometimes roofs, although it can be more warranted (I used some myself in my build in a vaulted ceiling space for a ventless design).
    But what a lot of people (and builders!!) don't realize is as insulation and air sealing values get better, than other things can be decreased such as mechanical equipment. Properly sized equipment can, in many cases, be reduced enough to offset added costs of sealing and insulation, leaving you with lower utility costs for the life of the home, and a net wash of upfront costs.
    I have a few homes where this proves to be true. A while ago I did a 3500 sqft house in zone 6 where we used 2" exterior foam sheathing, extensive air sealing and an exterior air barrier plane (used as zip sheathing) with blown fiberglass insulation. The whole wall r value of the wall was only around r26, and the ceiling was blown fiberglass at an r 60 with triple pane windows. The base price of the insulation included code min of r49 attic, code min air sealing, and r19 batts (no exterior foam). The upgrades added about $3500 to project, but then we ran detailed load calcs for the mechanical. It was determined that a "typical" furnace an ac would have been about 70k btu heating and 4 tons cooling. With the current design, a 30kbtu furnace and 2 tons of cooling is all that is needed, thus reducing the mechanical equipment by 1500 right there. Then since the shell is tight and higher r value mixed with triple pane windows, this also means ducting can be reduced and does not need to go to an exterior wall or window like is typically done. This had further cost savings, but also made for shorter runs of duct which increased heating and cooling efficiencies even more. The costs savings on mechanical was close to the 3500 upgrades. But in this area, the utility companies offer good rebates which added up to be 4k that this house now qualified for that previously did not with code min construction. The end result is a net cost of nearly -4k in upfront cost. Now that it is complete, we are collecting utility bills. 90 degree temps with high humidity is running the owner about $40 a month of run the ac for 3500 sqft. Their total bill was about $60 for all power for the home and taxes.
    These things are not that hard, and in the whole picture of a 300+k house cost, is a very small upgrade that is one of the only areas that has a pay off in the house.
    //derailed rant over

    While a thread derailment, you bringing up insulation inspections/pre insulation is important and many times missed or homeowners do not understand the importance of it. Obviously its not the home owners responsibility to make sure the GC does it correctly, but it is something worth mentioning in the thread to make sure its looked into.

    Ontario-
    Dense pack cellulose used to be the main way to fill a wall with a blown product. They have wet blown products which adds water or glues to the cellulose and its shot on the wall and then "mowed" off with a machine called a scrubber. This shaves the cellulose to be perfectly flush with the face of the studs. This method is good because it allows you to easily see areas not completely filled. Dense packing involves installing a tight netting over the studs and then blowing the insulation in to a density of around 3.5 lbs. This density prevents settling in the walls. Cellulose gives you an r value of around 3.8/inch (batts is typically around 3.5) and its actually a 3.8. (batts, as I mentioned above would be more around 3 or less after install).
    Blown fiberglass in installed the same way, but contractors around here prefer it since its easier for them to do and cleaner. The product itself typically costs slightly more than cellulose, however install is reduced so most charge the same for either around here. Blown fiberglass can be packed denser and can hit r values of 4 or even slightly higher to around 4.2. This is what I typically use for walls and ceilings.

    One of the pros of cellulose is the ability to hold moisture and release it to dry in a wall of ceiling. Many view this as a pro, I see it more of a con. Both can deal with vapors passing through a wall, but if you have a leak, cellulose can absorb it and hold it for a while before its known. Fiberglass water runs right through it so a leak is known sooner. I experienced this first hand with my own home when it was under construction.

    Upgrades over batts depends on your location, but around here its a small upgrade. 2x6 install is typically around $.90-1.00 per sqft of wall space for the install. In comparison, open cell foam is around $1.50 an closed cell is about $1/inch making it around $3. (higher r per inch means less thickness to closed cell to hit same r values).

    Head to Youtube and watch videos of installing cellulose and fiberglass. This is not a DIY job since you need to make sure the density is correct.

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Izerarc,

    Thanks for the extra info on this thread and others. I watched lots of videos and read material online yesterday after reading this thread. I see that it is not a DIY, yet not all that costly. We will get some quotes for the install of dense pack cellulose in our walls. We already installed triple pane fiberglass windows, so I wouldn't want to have the walls leak around electrical outlets.

    Carol

  • PRO
    Epiarch Designs
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Ontario:
    you mentioned "walls leak around outlets"...
    just to be clear, the only insulation that stops air movement is expanding foams. Cellulose or fiberglass will not stop air movement. Now it does have some air reduction abilities when dense packed, however you need caulks, tapes and expanding foams to seal your homes shell first.

  • ontariomom
    10 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Thanks Izerarc,

    I meant that batts would not insulate as well around interior outlets, wires, etc compared to dense packed cellulose that can fill the small spaces better than a batt. We will be sure to use caulk, tape and foam to seal the shell. We will do the energy blower test too.


    Carol