deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:47

I think certain style homes look better with one type or another. My traditional home looks better with double hung windows. The European style homes in our neighborhood look better with casements. I am not sure about price difference, since I didn't want casements and told the architect that.

I like double hung windows. My last house had all casement windows and I disliked everything about them. I remember I put T cranks on the bottom of the windows and the blinds still wouldn't sit right. The T cranks made them extremely hard to open.

My now grown, but skinny then girls couldn't have fit through the windows to escape if they needed to and that was if they could even get them open far enough.

I also disliked the interior screens. Nope, I will stick with the inefficient double hungs. I guess I didn't even realize that they were cheaper.

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:48

And they are difficult to clean. I don't have to go outside to clean them. Try cleaning a casement window above a garden.

I do take issue that casements are less likely to leak air. There are good double hung and poor casements out there.

Mechanical breakdown of casements is a problem, try opening a casement window with ice on it, snap goes the handle.

As is clear from the points made above, window selection is best made using:

--Architectural character of the house;
--Personal choice and preference

Fact is that when considering window types, there are quality and cheap-o offerings in every type. If one is looking to economize one's construction budget, cheapening the windows and exterior skin of the building is false economy, just as is cheapening the buildings' fixed systems--HVAC, electrical, plumbing, stairs, etc. These are the things one wants to work properly, with minimal maintenance or replacement for 20 years or more, not to mention the life-safety of one's family!

To make the positive case, we have all casements and I'm pleased with them. They crank fully open so I'm able to wash both sides from the inside of the house. They are more energy efficient and lock down tightly for winter or for a/c in the summer. I have some with the muntins just on the top so you can get variation in the muntins on a casement. Also, unlike double hungs where the mullion is right at eye level always blocking the view, the muntins on a casement can be high and the view completely available.

Further, you can't beat casements for over things like kitchen sinks. My mother never had enough upper body strength to open her kitchen window without our help, and even I had to crawl up on the counter to get enough leverage to lift them.

Best of all, they act like fins on the house so for most of the summer we keep the a/c off as the casements capture every passing breeze and blow it right through the house so it stays quite comfortable. And since they open completely rather than half way, you get much better ventilation for the size of the glass.

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:49

Wow, this thread has gotten testy. To answer th OP, yes generally casements are more expensive. I think you have a good idea of the pros and cons of casements from this thread.

Our entire home has casements bc it is a Tudor inspired home and it seemed the most appropriate choice. We rarely open windows as DH and DS have severe allergies and so we have not installed the screens. I have no problems cleaning them from the inside. I admit I don't like the 2 windows in my family room bc of where the center mullion is located but I'm not sure double hung would have been better. We probably should have gone with non operational at that location as that is the most energy efficient as well.

Its all too common for designers to get carried away with operable windows. If you want to save money, energy and views, picture/fixed windows can be done next to operables. It really only takes one small casement to ventilate a whole room especially when placed opposite the room's door.

Its tough to accept the family safety argument. Interior fiberglass screens are just as much of a barrier as an easily slidable window sash in my opinion. I think its rare for owners to fully open their casements and smart design can make it even less of an issue. As Annie notes, the "scoop effect" is surprisingly effective.

Double hungs absolutely leak more air and have worse thermal bridging than casements. This is true from the first day of install and gets worse over time. There are a few exceptions but not many at all. Casement and awnings use door style weatherstripping that forms a much better seal that lasts longer and is easily replaced.

Their poor performance could easily be the difference in not achieving code minimum blower door tests compared to casements and awnings. The energy use should not be so quickly dismissed for those that are concerned about such things.

In our house, we had to do "double-hung look-alike" casements in order to have an egress-sized window in a couple of bedrooms. If you are seeing casements in your plans in bedrooms, this may be why. A double hung has less than 1/2 the pane area as "open". For egress that won't do in a typically sized double hung. However, because the entire window swings with a casement, you can get an egress-acceptable window in the same dimensions...

I don't think that point of view was stated above anywhere.

Great point. One egress sized casement ventilates most rooms very effectively. Save costs by reducing operables so you can do higher quality casements!

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:50

And now that all the horses have been whipped, lol. In every instance a casement window will cost more dollars than a double hung all else aside.

(in our case, we were working within a dormer of an existing cape cod built in 1982. My window width is 30" All other windows on the front of the house (first floor, living areas) are double hungs, 30" wide. To make it all match, we had to do casement to get our remodel to pass inspection for our "new bedrooms" without reframing the whole front face of the dormers (and messing up the visual dimensions that I liked so much). There can be a time and a place for the added expense of a casement. Whether or not I like them the same or more than a double hung... I can't say. They are different. They ARE easier for my children to open, which for me, is a plus. But I don't have infants anymore. They are harder to clean the outside pane than the tip-in double hungs.

All I am saying is that your architect may have put them there for a particular reason which you will find out if you ask.

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:51

(Totally off the topic of the OPs post... but unfortunately, that wasn't allowed in our remodel. The windows were only 5 yrs old (double hungs) but we had to replace them to casements. I guess location makes a big difference in these things.)

Comfort. From a comfort point of view, Casements are the better choice.

I will say that I do like my double hungs for a somewhat obsure reason. I avoid a lot of AC use by nightime flushing with a box fan that fits nicely with my double hung. Not sure I could do this as effectively with a casement. Of course during extreme weather, you can feel the hot or cold air coming right on through the "weather seals" of the double hung. Casements would provide much more comfort during extreme weather.

Renovator - I'm curious about the issue of screens that you mentioned above and must not be understanding something. How are interior screens used with casements any more likely to fill up with bugs and cobwebs? We have all double hung in our house with the exception of one casement over the kitchen sink and original flip up to the interior windows in our basement. We have to clean our screens almost year round from spiders, cobwebs, and whatever gets trapped in them and our screens with the double hung windows are obviously on the outside. How are casements worse?

Also, I think someone mentioned the look of the interior screen (sorry I couldn't find it quickly to address the right person) as it being less desirable than an exterior. What am I missing? How is it visually less appealing to have the screen on the inside? Isn't the look to the outside changed in the same way with screen inside or out as opposed to a screenless window?

And does any window company make roll up screens for casements anymore? It's nice to get the screen out of the way during cold weather and have that clearer view. My parents had that in the house they built in 1960 but i don't believe I've seen it since.

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:52

Ren- what excactly are you referring to on the DH as far as a "notch"? I use casements and awnings far more than DH, and never had issue nor really know what you are talking about. I always detail the 2 the same way....

To chime in, pros and cons to each. I perfer casements myself, and that is what we installed in our new house. The contemporary look was important, but also was the efficiency as stated above. Ours are also triple pane, which is harder to come by in a DH. My parents house has all DH except for some almost 20 year old Andersens over the kitchen sink. It gets a lot of use, close to daily. It still works fine. can not say the same for the DH in the house. Some do not stay up, most of them leak air really bad, (she stuffs rags in them) and they are about 15 years old. All same brand. I have seen many DH fail sooner than casements. So yes, they are cheaper to buy upfront, but IMO they do not last as long.

There are also some other valid pros and cons between the 2, but a lot comes down to architectural style for me as well. One could put casements in any house or building, but not DH, also my opinion. Casements can be made with a look a like center mull to resemble a DH from the street.

As also mentioned by others, look into fixed windows too. You do not need to have all open. Fixed windows cost less as well. I tried to fix as many windows in mine as I could to not only save cost, but they are also more efficient for obvious reasons.

Another option is single hung-- like a double hung window, but only the bottom panel moves. We chose them because I never open the top panel of a double hung, and we didn't want to have screens blocking our view through the top of the window.

Ive never seen the debris problem myself. Another example of longevity, my folks house has casements and awnings (on very wooded lot) that are around 30 years old. All the hardware is still working fine but some are due for replacement from the wood not being maintained. The double hungs on my house cant be more than 15 years old and the locks are the only things that keep some of them from falling down on their own. These DH appear to have been a higher quality than most when they were originally installed.

As for the window sill details, all windows openings regardless of style, should be framed with sloping sills and flashing that will shed the inevitable intrusion of water. Even the pre-made PVC pans can be screwed up by not using flashing tape to direct water into the pan. I dont like them because the bond of the adjustable sliding pieces are uninspectable once installed. We use a cheaper and arguably better method that uses a 40 mil self adhering tape with no seams or fasteners at the vulnerable sill location. The trick is stretching out the corners and securing with button caps.

I do like using the plastic pans at doors though. I usually do these details myself to know they are done right, or at least can only blame myself if it fails.

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:53

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:53

Generally speaking casement windows have higher DP (design pressure) ratings. If installed properly Casements are less likely to leak.

Ren, it sounds like your negative experience pertains to retro fit applications, correct? That's the only time I could see the bottom nail fin causing an issue. As far as dirty screens, double hung screens mount to the exterior so they are much more likely to collect dirt and cob webs.

Any window can leak if it's not installed properly. Proper flashing is the key.

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:59

Ren
Brian is referring to a sloped sill in the RO, not in the window. I have detailed this by simply adding a piece of cedar siding at the RO sill prior to the pan flashing. That piece you are referring to on the DH must be an Andersen design, not typical of DH. Any good window company would not make a window not capable of shedding or preventing water intrusion.
Another flaw is caulking the bottom flange. You should not be doing this, on any window type. Caulking the bottom flange traps water that does get in and does not allow it to drain out the sill. Do not tape it as well.

Proper flashing is vaild and the same for any window type. Detail is as follows: Sloped sill pan (I use cedar, I know Marvin makes a premolded sloped plastic sill pan), sill pan tape flashing (I typically spec DuPont Flexwrap) on the sill, lapping over the weather barrier paper and up the sides 4-6", caulk the 3 sides, then drop the window. Tape 3 sides, then head (after paper is lapped over). This holds true for all window types.
Not sure what casement issue experiences you have had, but issues I have had with DH windows over the years far exceeds casement, both in function and rot.

Why wouldn't you use a pan like the drawing and incorporate a drain mat then flash the nail fin with a 6" membrane and attach a sill on top of the nail fin? The lower nail fin isn't compromised, in fact it needs to be able to weep any water that happens to get caught by the pan. Does that make sense?

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:54

That looks almost like a brickmold application. I checked Kolbe and Marvin's details (probably the "best" double hungs out there) and they both have flat sill that look just like their casement friends. I understand your comments, but its not typical of double hungs, but rather that Andersen 400 DH.

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:55

The drawing helped me to better understand what you're talking about. Some companies make a drip lip that fits into an accessory channel that may help with the issue. They are a bit flimsy though. I have seen another detail where they want you to run a galvanized flashing piece behind the nail fin, under the plant on sill and over your siding. I have never used that detail and it seems like a pain, but it is an option.

I would also note that the accessory channel option would not extend beyond your jambs like sill horns, they stop at the window frame.

This post was edited by Esko on Tue, Aug 6, 13 at 17:10

Ren
I am only asking since I have yet to come across the issues you have had. I also seldomly do residential, and when I do, its only high performance homes which are never traditional and DH are never even a consideration due to the air leakage. With that being said, I am working on a historical renovation of a large office building achieving federal and state grant money, so attention to detail is key. Details you mentioned about DH are included.
My point wasnt right or wrong, rather you are pointing out a company that does it a certain way and isnt characteristic of DH in general. On the flip side to traditional architecture and importance of details, modern architecture a sub sill would be something not wanted in the details.

and way off topic....
back on topic- screens.

My previous house had DH. The screen to the outside always collected a lot of dust and dirt, and when it rained it became muddy on the outer sill. They would also collect snow and hold it against the glass (lazy...should have taken the screens off int he winter but didnt...)

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:57

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:56

Interesting sill detail. At least they allow clad. I have 2 cities near me that do not allow Aluminum clad or vinyl, historic or not. In historic homes they have actually forced us to use single glaze true divided lite in a coastal environment. They even specify windows to have ogee lugs.

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:56

Boring or not, its another form of architecture that has just as important details as the next form. I tend to struggle more with contractors on modern projects than more traditional. Clean, cripst straight lines are sometimes harder to pull off when they can not be covered by trims.

My home has all Kolbe casements. They have a drip break in the aluminum at the bottom that helps to direct water off the sill of the window. The details are that I mentioned before, and no sub sill obviously. Cladding systems I design are typically more of a rainscreen, and always feature an air gap for drying ability of the wall assembly. I do not detail claddings to be water tight, thats impossible to assume. Rather allow the water a place to exit and dry out. This is true for any type being wood/cedar, cement board, vinyl, etc Allow the cladding to take the wind pressure off, and it allows the water to fall freely. Proper sill flashing over the weather barrier with a sloped sill allows for water to drain freely if it does get behind the nail flange and dry out in the vent cavity.

I also had a bit of a hard time following your posts Reno until you posted those pictures and now it has become clear and I understand and agree with you.

deleted

This post was edited by Renovator8 on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 19:58

I personally feel that sloping and flashing of the sill rough framing is a more important detail than the integrated sill of the window. Water doesnt behave like you tell it to in a diagram. The profiles pictured dont account for what happens in the corners, the seal between glass and frame or most egregious getting past the head and side nailing fins.

From my experience, very little water makes it through the crack between the bottom sill of the casement and a picture framed trim piece. What little water does make it past is prevented from getting to the sill by the nailing fin and runs behind the siding on the weather resistive barrier WRB (housewrap). If this is a major concern then flashing tape over the second lap below should redirect it to outside the siding (second lap course because the first course is butted to the trim). I feel the amount of water involved here would be measured in drips per x gallons.

I shot this pic this morning and know its hardly evidence but I may satisfy my curiosity a little more with some other methods on a project we currently have in the framing stage. My thoughts are to place some paper towels behind the picture framed piece, vigorously wet the window with 5 to 10 gallons and seeing how wet or if there is a measurable amount of moisture is getting through this admittedly vulnerable location (from a stand point of water behind cladding NOT rotting the sill). I dont think it will be much and feel that a sloping/flashed rough sill will handle the much more dangerous and damaging leak points.

Ive used the red cedar beveled siding to get the sloped sill in the past but we are trying some different methods on this home. Here we are planing and sanding the integrated framing on some pre-cast concrete panels window openings.

Ive seen many methods of flashing a rough window sill and can usually find some serious weaknesses in all of them. This is a method I came up with that I feel has the best durability for the lowest cost. We avoid putting any fasteners in the vulnerable corners. If a WRB is being used other than ZIP, the tape laps over it.

I like to tape the top edge of the forti flash tape with more aggressive and thinner tape. Tough to beat 3ms 8067.

For some added protection you could nail a 1x2 at the interior edge (only at the bottom) before you put your Protecto wrap down, creating a dam. Just be sure to adjust your RO accordingly.

I dont like the dam method and prefer the slope as the outer edge is where most intrusion will find its way to the sill. Of course slope + dam is even better. You have to plan for the RO with the cedar siding method too. I usually add .5" to the height. For those of you that think that bidding plans is the way to go, good luck getting these details into the bid documents. Sorry, couldnt prevent that and will probably regret it..

Brian- I also use the 3m All weather tape and used it on my own house with the ICF. That stuff is great...have not found a better tape. Sticks to foam great too. Makes Tyvek tape look like scotch tape!

double post

This post was edited by lzerarc on Wed, Aug 7, 13 at 15:09

It really is amazing. I have do doubts about its long term adhesive effectiveness over time given a correct material and clean surface after doing some "new construction renovation" where it was applied. Once its stuck, you have to destroy it to remove it.

I think the high end Euro vapor permeable tapes are better but tend to be over priced for the benefits on the exterior, and obviously pointless on vapor impermeable materials. 475 supply has a tape that is a little cheaper and is vapor permeable but only for interior use. We plan on using it in our next two homes to seal rough framing to window frame.