Smooth, the same size and laid the same way. You could probably get a black or dark gray color body porcelain and do the same thing.

I am not sure I would put a door there - It might look too closed off. What is that immediately in the mud hall. I assume it is not a desk because there doesn't seem to be room for a chair. I think if the flooring coordinates, there seems to be no reason to close it off - no offensive sight lines.

I would take the marble when you get it to the flooring store and find something that coordinates with the dark marble. I would also focus on something that is solid in color as the marble is very busy looking. Black slate is a great idea, but there are also great looking porcelain tiles that may work. One other thought is to continue the flooring from the dining room into the little hallway and do the marble only in the foyer proper. This might give you the best look . . .

I'd go for the porcelain tiles that mimic a slate some look so identical and would be so much easier for upkeep.

athensmom, that little thing in the mud hall was the architect's idea--a tech station. it's not going in because i hated the thought of a counter and chair visible from my hallway. the view from the hallway will be of a wall, the cubbies/lockers will not be visible, nor will the garage door, bathroom, etc.
why do you think a door in the hallway is not a good idea?
the dining room floor will be red oak. My husband also thought it would look neat to have a long hallway in checkerboard marble.

You really could put a door there because it is the symmetrical end of the axis.

If you stand at the entry into the large room with the fireplace, look right, your eye stops at the (coved?) end of that hallway.

If you look left, it would make sense for there to be a break at the same point, which would be outside the mudhall.
That is a "service" part of the house, and should be separated as such.

The other thing that is not particularly Georgian about it is that the wall-in closet juts a bit into that hallway if you draw a straight line, and strictly, it shouldn't particularly if you do not separate the mudhall. There is a lack of "articulation" of the hallway there that is uncharacteristic.

I would probably Distinctly separate the mudhall there with something, perhaps even a deep paneled archway with a wide band of black marble flooring to "terminate" the formal hall and lead to the informal.

Why not use the wood floors, like you'll have in the back of the house? I think it would be easier to keep clean and will give you some continuity. And, it will balance out your little 'side halls' off the entry, which will now be about the same length. I think that makes the front of the house look/feel more formal and then you'd be using the wood in the less formal areas.

I would also think about a runner or some easy to clean throw rugs (with non slip pads underneath) for the area between the back door and garage door, in front of the cubbies. This will be your 'muddiest' area and you want to contain it, as much as possible. Hope that helps :)

Separate from the separation of the hallway by an opening, would it be possible to run the checkerboard on the East West axis and switch at the turn in the hall by the back stairs and once you get to the bath/laundry area?

I realize it could chop up the flooring within that hallway but again, it's "back of house" and historically at least they would have considered the same thing.

I still think I would solve it by making a distinct opening there to balance the other end of the hall.

It just seems to me to be a door that would get in the way and would never be closed. If you are not putting in the cabinetry, are you reframing that area so the door is centered on the mud hall or do you have other plans for that space. I

I think if you have an opening with a nice deep embrasure, you don't really need a door, or it could be a pair of doors that rested completely in the embrasure that would only be rarely closed. You could get fancy and do paired doors with Harmon hinges that formed "Panels" inside the embrasure, but that could be pricey. It needn't be that elaborate.

Palimpset, that mud hall closet was an early idea of the architect, but has been moved. I just don't have a newer version Of the plan to post.
The marble goes all the way to the end of the hallway opposite the mud hall entrance we've been referring to.
I think I'll look for smooth black slate for the mud hall and see about double doors. It might look pretty, no?

What is the coved detail at the other end of that hall? I have been curious about that--what is it going to look like.

I think double doors and black slate (or slate-look porcelain) could be really nice.

The architects during this period through the pre-WW II era definitely would have articulated the different functions of this hallway to designate formal/informal; guest/family; family/staff.

It won't play out this separately in modern use but from a design point of view and from a cost-saving point of view, creating the separation makes sense, particularly in the "historic" house context.

If you would like to email me I have some additional comments. :)

The cove is a little inset into the wall, don't ask! Lol. Let me just say that not all of the house's features were my decisions. So, now I have to figure out what to do with it. Any brilliant ideas?

If you're going to use double doors (French doors?) to divide off that side hall to the mudroom...I would use a built in display cabinet with divided glass upper doors, in the cove. Symmentrical details look very traditional and it will give your eye somewhere to land, as you look down each side hall :)

If it was outside the dining room end of the hall it would be where your knife urns and cellarette were placed with a sideboard so you could be served.

I would have to know the size and shape of it, but it would be a good place for a case piece with something ornamental on it. I am assuming it has a coved top or a shell detail or the like that doesn't make it a place for a mirror?

Just please don't put a recessed can in it. (I am kind of hoping against hope that there won't be any recessed lighting in the entry hall or dining room, in particular).I know everyone is crazy for it now, but you are doing an Adam ceiling in the dining room, so please...no.

If you need a source for good period lighting let me know.

I can't stop following this project, but if you want me to knock if off, say so.

I actually posted a message between surgical procedures (performing, not getting) this morning.8c]

palimpset, you're fantastic and i love that you're "on" my project in between your doctoring! :)
nope, no recessed lighting in the dining room, family room, hallway, foyer, etc. there will be some in the kitchen and some in the basement, but that's it.
no shell shape plaster in the niche. i'll post a pic of the niche in this thread tonight and you can all weigh-in.

palimpsest, from all of your responses I would have thought you were a professional designer! :)

I have a design degree, and would probably be an architectural historian or restoration architect if I knew such things existed when I was 18. I got the design degree at the age of 40 and use it for occasional jobs, myself, and entertainment purposes in addition to my day job.

alright, here's a photo of the "cove"...looks like there is wiring for a picture light. what do we do with the baseboard and crown here?

It's a nice detail actually but finishing it is going to be tricky. I think you need to do radius crown and base. I don't think you have a choice, actually. (I will be by to inspect later :cP )

Who selected this detail and what was Their intended purpose for it? This is one of those things that it is best to build only when you know exactly what it is, already...

This guy did my radius mouldings after creating a knife from a piece of stock I sent him. It was not as expensive as you would think.

Here is a link that might be useful: B. H. Davis

I know there will be a piece of furniture in there someday but the outlet being off-center would drive me a little nuts.

palimpset, the off-center outlet bugs me, but it's on the stud so that's why it is where it is.
the niche was our architect's idea (we have two upstairs that i'll take a photo of tomorrow)and my husband was excited about it. one upstairs is right in front of you as you enter through the double doors to the master bedroom. we have one in the hallway going toward the childrens' rooms.

my husband seems to think the crown and baseboard can be steamed and curved to fit this space. if we have issues i'll contact your guy--thanks for the link.

what's your source for period lighting?

i'd love it if you lived closer so you could come help me with my house :)

I am not sure that it can be steamed to fit, & the curve is internal so it can't be kerfed on the back like an outside curve molding application, either.

The lighting from The Federalist is about as good a mix as you are going to get. Since there is very little "period" fixed lighting in the Georgian period, (or Federal period) other than chandeliers there are some decent Revival style fixtures that are available through them. Some of the Visual Comfort stuff is nice too.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Federalist

Arguably, probably the most "accurate" way to light the house would be with the earliest period electric fixtures in revival style (with big round bulbs in gold or red (!)), followed by using reproduction Argand, Solar, or Sinumbra lighting, which is the first way that the house would have been lit with "fixtures" other than candle-chandeliers and portable candlesticks. These were oil lamps that were very high tech and bright for their day.

This would be how affluent people who lived in a Georgian house would have first put "modern" lighting in them. I think this would look odd to most people today since we are so used to reproduction fixtures with candle shaped bulbs. When I had an offer on the Federal period house I thought about doing a solar or argand fixture in the Dining room, just because.

Are you interested in doing any rooms of period rug? They are generally pretty expensive and the colors are psychedelic, remember that people in this period lived in the dark.

Here is a link that might be useful: JP Tinsmith.

:) I've got a bunch from the federalist picked out and visual comfort and Hudson valley lightings is nice as well.
We have eclectic taste so we'll likely keep some of our non-period style pieces (like our bourgie table lamps that I love). As long as the bones of the house are historic-looking I'm fine with mixing styles in decor in clever ways.

The seating pieces are deadly uncomfortable. Modern furniture as in mid 20th century furniture actually looks really nice in these houses because it doesn't compete.

Since you are doing curves...why not keep the curve of the back of the stairs in the lower right hand room?

One thing that is going to be not particularly historic about the main rooms is the lack of fireplaces. The dining room would have had one, and the great room probably would've had two, at that size.

I would be really tempted to put a "closed up" fireplace in the dining room just for completion sake and bury the empty firebox in the bathroom and laundry room. It would be the perfect spot for a three section mirror or girandoles with lighting etc.

It would be your prime sideboard location but, you could do paired smaller pieces on each side, which would get them the corners of the table.

Can you move the plug down to the baseboard and turn it horizontal? I much prefer outlets in baseboards - they disappear that way and you don't notice the fact they are off center. I get the whole plug/stud thing but that would bug me too ;)

i'll ask the electrician if he can move the outlet to the baseboard. silly ?, but how will they fix that hole then?

Yep, we know about the lack of dining room fireplace, but there is only so much we can do with this house.

It wouldn't have to have a chimney or anything, it would only the the firebox and mantle.

That might be hokey but on the other hand I am used to non-functioning fireplaces. Since every room in every house had one around this neighborhood, there are lots of vestigial fireplaces that have been left behind.

It might look silly if none of your other outlets are in baseboards - all of ours are. I think they are much less obtrusive that way. It is more expensive/more trouble to do them that way but that is the best result aesthetically.

getting it to the middle would involve cutting an opening in the drywall, installing a nailer, moving the box and pulling the wire over which could positition it up or down from it's current location depending on where the wire comes from and how much give there is in the wire. Then patching the hole(s).

Depending on what goes there it may not be worth it.

Code also has standard heights for outlets, and depending on how picky your inspector is, they may not allow baseboard outlets in a new build because they are too low.

We can't move any outlets to the baseboards. I'm
Going to calm down about it and try to focus on other things. Think I hired a designer today!

A lot of things that seem crazy-important at this stage will not even cross your mind when furnished! Don't stress! It is going to be lovely. Have fun with your designer!

Great news about the designer! Yes, these little things will all disappear when you move in. . . We are moving in a week and had a "slow leak" (it looked like a flood and frankly I think someone left the faucet on) in our family room wet bar. Cabinet looks like it may be damaged on the interior - water in the seams of the plywood - and hardwoods need to be pulled up, subfloor dried out and hardwood relaid. They are supposed to receive their final coat Thursday and Friday . . . Of course, I stumbled upon it when someone made a half a*& clean up job and left standing water inside the cabinet. No one told me it happened which made me even more furious! I will be SO glad to get these people out of my house!!!!

Ok, so I think I found the flooring for the mud hall, provided the price is not outrageous. It's moorside limestone and I've taken a photo of it next to the "black" of the checkerboard area. What do you guys think?

Looks good to me.

Must I lay the black limestone in a checkerboard pattern or can it be laid in a brick pattern?
Double doors for the opening to the mud hall are quoted at $1400. It seems super high. If we don't do the doors, how should we lay the black? And, what to do on the floor for a threshold? White marble, black, nothing? Thanks!

I would lay it the same way or straight on grid, not brick. A black threshhold would be nice, not necessary.

I would also lay it the same way as the black and white, and would do the same size/finish of tiles. I would do a white threshold - or a white border all the way around, which might look better. I wouldn't want the two separate tiles abutting.

As far as the doors go, I personally don't like that idea but that is because in my house it would always be open. It doesn't seem that you have an offensive sight line to cover up. The only reason I might consider it is if you have pets you need to corral when you have guests.

It would bother me having the back hall door off center like it is though. If all that was done was to take out the charging center, I would rework that area and add a closet so the opening centers on the wall. In that event, I wouldn't do a door there. You could do double doors on the closet which would look nice and take care of that strange transition area. . . . or maybe you moved the wall forward when you eliminated the cabinetry?

You could leave part of that area as a desk - I understand the chair issue but I have solved that before by getting a pretty bench that would fit under the desk that you can shove under it when it is not in use. Might be a great place to put your laptop and pay bills.

If you did a closet on the mud hall side and the desk on the laundry side, you could put a wireless printer and filing cabinets in the closet and have a real home command center.

The tech center is completely gone. We extended the bathroom wall out so the hallway width is consistent there. The closet was moved so it is not in sight from the hallway. Which off-center door do you mean, athensmom?
I'm wondering if we should extend the black and white a little further down so it ends where the tech center would have ended. Any thoughts? Thanks!

No, end it at the door opening where it is symmetrical with the other end of the hallway outside the bathroom.

alright, thanks. gonna have the moorside set on a diagonal and think more about thresholds. tile guy suggests putting the white marble there to separate the two. but, won't 12 " pieces of white marble with grout between not look good as a threshold? i thought thresholds were supposed to be one strip of a stone (or other material). i can't find images of this anywhere and am having a tough time imagining. uggh.

I would put one strip all the way across, yes. You may need to find a matching marble and have it cut to length and width. It may be easier to do this with limestone. I think I would do black since it is BW and all black. If it is easier to get matching white marble I would do a solid white slab

White marble and pink marble or granite sills are a big box store item here, but probably not in the size you need.

oh no, just found out that the moorside i chose is random lengths. 18" wide by, I think she said 14 or 16" up to 24" long. what on earth do i do? how can this look nice in the mud hall if adjacent to the black and white checkerboard on a diagonal. any ideas? please help, i'm nervous!!!!

Is this on its way?

I would lay it on the straight, and use matching grout, black grout. Unless there is a lot of color variation it will be ok, I think.

It's not on it's way, but will be soon. I've not found a better alternative. Any suggestions?

What is your target price per square foot?

For this area I'd like to keep it under 10 because we are way over on flooring.

any thoughts on a 12" square non-cleft slate set on a diagonal instead of this beautiful moorside? the slate will have a colder feel, might it seem more suited for outdoor applications, or will it be ok in my large mud hall (300 sq. ft)? what's more Georgian?

or, because we're putting a door in where the two floors will meet, does it not matter and i should do the moorside limestone regardless of the random lengths?