What is the scope of architectural services being considered?

Will the architect act as a high level draftsman for your design or will he produce a full set of construction documents including specifications and provide on site construction phase services? Would his fee include engineering and inspection services? Would the design documents include future work?

Is the architect a member of a firm or a sole-practitioner? What is his level of experience? What is his hourly rate?

Good questions.
The scope...
He will produce a full set of construction drawings including specifications. We will be on site constantly and will be the GCs, so he will not need to be on site unless there is an issue that arises. His fee does include engineering services. The design documents do not include future work.

The architect is a sole practitioner. He has 25+ years experience. He was on my list because he has particular experience dealing with our coastal zoning requirements. He charged us $80/hour for the initial meeting.

I am fine with his hourly rate, but I don't see him providing 220 hours of service. (His bid divided by $80/hour).

I would consider hiring him at his hourly rate but with a proposed budget broken down into project phases (including any pre-design zoning proposals and post-construction permitting) even if the budget contained a high and low component for the phases. That would allow both of you to be alerted if and when he is spending more time than originally thought necessary for one of the phases.

The scope of the work for each phase should be described carefully so that legitimate additional services not included in the original proposal can be billed at the same hourly rate without conflict.

He might want you to hire the engineer and pay him/her in order to limit his liability for that work. Consultant fees, printing, etc. should reimbursed at cost without a markup.

Of course, such a proposal from him would probably expose the degree of overestimate of his earlier fee so he might not readily accept this approach. Nevertheless, I think it is the fairest approach and it has worked very well for me.

I would ask him to detail his bid so you can see how he's estimating his time. My architect gave us a bid that included this information and it was very helpful (most time was for construction documents). Also, ask him to estimate the engineer fees so you know the expenses he is wrapping in his bid. I think you need more information to determine the best way to move forward (hourly or negotiated flat fee). If you do go to hourly, agree upon how to manage the time (ex. fing an increment of time when you might like to be informed, such as ever 25 hours).

I do think if you are serving as GC, you want the most detailed construction documents/specs possible, and architects usually provide more than detailed documents than most residential designers. You may also appreciate his experience with your zoning requirments both upfront and along the way to problem-solve. I think the extra investment in a project you are overseeing may be worth it, but I would agree that you need to negotiate based on the scope of your project. Good luck!

I'm not really sure what your studio is like, size, design requirements and how "nice" your house is....

but I am staggard by the cost you just mentioned. $17600.

I'm also a little confused that you were charged for the meeting, did he provide architectual services at the meeting? or was he interviewing for a job?

I would think 1 you get charged for, the other not.

If you're GCing the project, and all you're looking for is for him to draw the plans, submit to the town for approval, no variances or anything... I think that seems way out of line.

I got off cheap I'm sure, but I had my architect draw up plans for my 2000 sqft additon/remodel and submit to town and get approval for $2500 plus permit fees. I gave him the layout, pictures/sketches of the elivations and window placements. very little handholding or input from him. no interior design or finishes etc, just plans.

I know for a full service architect with many meetings and site visits etc some people are paying $5-10K plus for their houses and that is well reasonable i guess.

Normally a structural engineer is not needed for a house design unless there are structural elements that are not prescribed in the applicable building code and if they are simple span elements they can often be stamped by an engineer working for the manufacturer.

So, what this tells me is that the project is probably not a small "draw it up" design effort.

Without knowing the full scope of the work, the design challenges and the location, it is impossible to say what an architect's fee should be and I have never found guessing about professional matters to be at all useful.

Thanks for all the comments. Renovator8, I was thinking along the same lines... an hourly rate with clear guidelines/estimates agreed upon for each phase of the project. Yes, Chrisk327, his bid was $17,000. I brought up the finish issue, because our main house is quite small (1300 s.f.) but I designed it to be tailored exactly for our needs, so it included many custom features from site-built furniture grade cabinets, to hydronic radiant floor heating, to a wall of accordion doors that completely open a room to the outdoors, etc. I figure he used that level of construction finish to estimate the build cost of the garage/studio and then charge 10% of that estimate (roughly 30 x 20 garage with studio above - only 600 sq.ft. of finished space).

The charge for the meeting was correct in my eye because it was really a working session. We went through my design work, he answered some questions I had about the zoning requirements, he pulled the existing permit info, etc.

I am happy to pay for services rendered, but not a random percentage.

I agree with Renovator8, it is difficult and we really shouldn't be guessing at what you should be charged without significant details... but that is a lot of money

however, I think your best avenue is to talk to another guy to see what his bid would be.

You both have been very helpful. I have better clarity on how to go back to this architect as well as interview another one with similar experience. Thanks much!

17K ????? for a garage and apartment over ???? after you got it 90% done? I would run like crazy. Thats a $1000-$1500 job at most. I am not saying he cant improve on the design but thats simply crazy. It should be a simple project.

Bigkahuna's proposal seems fair. I recommend accepting it.

His bid is very predictable. Architects could provide invaluable service. Fixing common mistakes, giving you good suggestions etc. Most try same lame s!t - 10% of total cost.

1) First ask yourself a question - do you really need architect?
2) Ask your GC - does he need architect?
3) Do you need architect during construction process? If not ask him to draw plans only. ($3k - $5k).

For a minimal drafting fee, an architect should not normally be willing to put his/her name on a drawing because all states hold architects to a much higher standard of liability for the design of any kind of building even if an architect's services are not required by law.

The presence of an architect's name on a set of drawings could actually make him/her responsible for the mistakes of others if it is not made clear in the contract what parts of the design the architect is not responsible for especially if he/she was not hired to provide construction phase services.

But even if the scope of services is clear in the contract, the architect can still be a sitting duck for 3rd party claims because of his/her liability insurance. Most claims are made against all of the insured parties regardless of responsibility or fault in the hope that the various insurance companies will settle within the various deductible amounts and then be able to raise their rates making a profit from everyone's loss.

Therefore, what a homeowner might ask/expect of an architect and what a court might hold him/her responsible for can be quite different. This is why architects often will not provide drafting-only services unless they are either very inexperienced or desperate for work.

In other words, it is much safer (in terms of liability for 3rd party claims) for an uninsured, unlicensed draftsman to try to expand his/her architectural services than for an architect to scale his/her services back to drafting only.

If that makes sense, it might help to better explain why an architect's fee for a homeowner pre-designed structure might be higher than the market will to bear.

Regarding the need for an architect, I can tell you this: any house design can benefit from a careful review by an experienced architect just as it would also benefit from a careful review by an experienced contractor. No one knows it all or at least no one is current with all of the issues in homebuilding least of all a homeowner who is understandably operating from limited personal experience, incomplete or misleading internet information, and often inappropriate opinions from friends and relatives.

The specific advice I would take issue with (don't mean to pick on shifrbv, it's very common advice) is for a homeowner to hire an architect to only draw plans of a pre-designed house and hire a contractor to build it. This procedure may appear to be cost effective but it can lead to costly misunderstandings and delays because it makes the homeowner responsible for interpretation, clarification and enforcement of the contract documents especially when things are missing or unclear.

If you want to hire an architect to only act as a draftsman with minimum design input, it would be better to ask the contractor to hire the architect in a design-build project delivery approach where the contractor is responsible to the homeowner for delivering a project suitable for their needs.

In other words, carefully structure a contract to avoid split responsibilities. If the homeowner provides the contractor with design documents he/she should also provide clarifications, corrections, revisions, and on site quality control/assurance or turn the entire responsibility for this work over to the contractor, not just part of it.

I had done an addition to our current house few years ago. Addition of about $1500 sq ft. Architect charged $1500 to draw it up after I gave him all the details.
I am currently working with an Architect (highly recommended by somebody I know) who will be charging $6k for a 2000 sq ft house. Fees for engineering services are not included.
Your project seems relatively simple and proposed fees is definitely excessive.

If the architect works for the same fee per hour as the original one mentioned he/she would be spending about 75 hours on the project. Assuming there will be no construction phase services provided or zoning analysis or structural design the contract documents would probably use up about 48 hours. If the drawing set consists of plans, elevations, schedules, details, lighting, smoke detectors, HVAC and specifications on the drawings, the fee would allow about 3 hours for each drawing sheet.

That tells me he/she is probably either very fast, works for less than the other architect per hour, is not providing a full set drawings, or is not actually registered. On the other hand, the design might not be very complex or difficult to draw. Who can say? Without knowing anything about the project the amount of the fee doesn't tell us much if anything.