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olivesmom_gw

Framing questions

olivesmom
10 years ago

We are speaking with a "build on your lot" type builder, through they do offer custom as well. They have their standards and offer upgrades. They list two items under framing that I'm not familiar with:

- Hemlock vs Douglas Fir. Hemlock is their standard and they mention 90% of homes (not sure if they mean their homes or homes in the region) use hemlock. Douglas fir is an upgrade and they list it as costing 10-12% more than the standard lumber package. Is Douglas fir worth the extra money? I do want straight walls, our current tract home has some awful bows in the wall. Not sure if it due to crappy construction or materials or both.

- Standard glue and ring shank nailing. Upgrade to glue and screws for $300-$1000 depending on size of home. Assuming we would be closer to $1000 for this. Is this worth it? Doesn't seem like much if it is something important

Thanks

Oh, and we are located in the pacific northwest. I think other regions use different lumber.

Comments (16)

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago

    with proper sized ring shank & nail patterns you
    should be ok.
    on my inspections wrong sized nails and
    incorrect nailing patterns lower strength
    of walls. I've not seen screw & glue in my
    hurricane area.

    don't know about lumber choices in your area.

    best of luck.

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago

    Oh I agree that screws are the better choice,
    much stronger holding strength than nails.
    just saying I don't see framers using screws
    over nails in my area.

  • millworkman
    10 years ago

    Doug Fir or Hemlock should be fine either way as long as the span charts are followed for ceiling beams and rafters. Hemlock or Hem-Fir is used all the time, it is not as strong as Douglas Fir which is why I mentioned span charts.

  • methoddesigns
    10 years ago

    I like nails better. Screws have less shear strength. As far as straight walls, it depends on the framing contractor and whether or not he takes the time to crown the studs to keep them facing the same way, not many do.

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    In the Northeast the more important issue would be whether or not the lumber is kiln dried but that might be of less concern in your location.

    There might be some advantage in using screws and glue but I have no idea what it would be. It certainly wouldn't be resistance to lateral forces (wind & earthquake); that would depend on how the sheathing is attached, not how the studs are attached.

    The options seem more like up-selling to me.

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago

    personally I'd invest in simpson strong ties to carry
    the load from rafters to slab.
    not a bad investment in a hurricane zone!

    best of luck op.

  • User
    10 years ago

    Is the glue and screw not referring to the sheathing and/or drywall attachment method rather than the framing attachment method? If so, then that would be a worthwhile upgrade to help with structural rigidity and reducing noise transmission. In addition to using strong ties at all appropriate locations for a seismic/high wind build. In a one or the other situation, erLA is correct that the strong ties would be the place to put the money.

  • brickeyee
    10 years ago

    "I like nails better. Screws have less shear strength."

    Not if you pick the correct screw size.

    And while nails have zero structural rating in withdrawal, screws can have decent number if needed.

    The thing you need to avoid is hardened screws (like drywall screws).

    They tend to fracture instead of bending.

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    I suspect the screw size would have to be pretty small to avoid splitting the wood and even then I suspect it might be a problem. I doubt most codes would accept screws in lieu of nails in framing and glue would serve no purpose so I suspect the OP is talking about drywall attachment. If so, screws are a must-have upgrade to ring-shank drywall nails whatever the cost.

    As others have pointed out, the only effective way to prevent wind and earthquake uplift is with hold-down straps and other devices designed for that purpose.

  • brickeyee
    10 years ago

    "I suspect the screw size would have to be pretty small to avoid splitting the wood and even then I suspect it might be a problem."

    That is what plot holes were invented for.

    You can get shaped pilot bits that will also countersink or counter-bore at the same time they create a correctly sized pilot hole (both length and diameter, including shank clearance as required).

    They are enough extra work to install that not many are submitted for testing to the labs.

    A correctly selected and installed screw has far more strength than a comparable shank nail.

    It is the increased labor that stops there use.

  • energy_rater_la
    10 years ago

    that surely would add time to the job. one to drill pilot
    holes, one to come behind with drill & counter sink
    screws.
    extra tool, extra drill bits, extra time = higher cost.

    around here it is difficult to get the trades to buy
    ring shank nails for roof decking. occasionally
    I run into new construction decking with staples.
    usually in very rural areas where code inspections
    aren't well enforced.
    as this is always visible unless roofline is foamed
    I always wonder how/who/if it is ever discovered
    that the wrong fastner was used.

    I also wonder how much better it would be to use
    ring shanks on sheathing of walls, instead of just
    on roof decking.
    a step up from regular nails..a step below screws.
    hmmm anyone seen a study on that?

    one problem I have encountered with strong ties
    is the wrong size nail being used..or less than
    required nails being installed.
    whenever I see this..I think that there is a job
    for someone to verify nail type & size as per
    spec'd by strong tie requirements.

    and sometimes I speculate/think/wonder too_much!

    the fastner is only as good as the nails that
    hold it in place. quite a few fails out here in
    hurricane alley. and who knows? not the
    homeowner, and probably not even the installer.
    cuz no one reads instructions.

    and you all know how builders/frame carpenters/
    trades just love someone else looking at their
    work. LOL!

    interesting thread even if it is just us regulars
    talking among ourselves at this point...

    Y'all have a safe & happy Memorial Day tomorrow!

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    For shear wall sheathing fasteners the important issues are diameter and ductility so common nails are usually preferred to less ductile screws and smaller diameter box, cooler and sinker nails. Clipped nail gun heads meet most codes but full nail heads are preferred.

    The APA does not recommend screws for shear walls or diaphragms in high-seismic areas. Their testing has shown that nails tend to bend and withdraw slightly rather than breaking and failing completely.

    Simpson Strong-Tie WSNTL Wood Screws are now accepted in CA except in the 3 highest Seismic Design Categories D, E, and F.

    A good alternative is Stanley Bostitch HurriQuake ring-shank nails available in two diameters: 0.113 and 0.131

    This post was edited by Renovator8 on Tue, May 28, 13 at 9:39

  • Awnmyown
    10 years ago

    Not sure if you mean D. Fir vs. Hemlock for Floor Joists, but we were told D. Fir offers less "bounce" in the floor, which means less creaking of floor boards and "springy" feel (where running kids bounce ornaments clear off shelving across the room) ; ) Was worth the upgrade for me!

    (and I'll stay out of the screw vs. nail debate)

  • millworkman
    10 years ago

    Awnmyown, what???

  • renovator8
    10 years ago

    The difference in deflection between those two species of wood at normal loading would not be measurable much less noticeable to the inhabitants. If you want less bounce, increase the depth of the joists, put them closer together or use stiff truss joists.