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munzerhaque

Mother of all Savings

MunzerHaque
12 years ago

I think, there are some builders and Architect in this forum tries to prop up their fee. I have noticed in this forum some people are suggesting $2.00 to $5.0 per sq. ft. for Architectural drawing. For builders' fee: 15% to 20%.

I think those number are too high. I am in Dallas, Texas.

I am a consumer and in the process of building of my dream home.

This is the process I am following and saving a lot of money.

I bought AutoCAD 2010 Architect, student edition for $175 and a $50 book training manual for it. I spent 3 months learning AutoCAD on my own. Student edition is not water down version, it is the same full version sold to professionals. The only difference is it print "Student Version" on the edges of the print out.

Then I spend 6 months, part time drawing my home. Then I took it to designer to review, partial redraw, fixes, and ensure all standards and building codes. This designer with 20+ years of experience is charging me $0.70 to do so.

In the state of Texas Architect is not required.

I have 2 acre lot. Plan has 6,000 sq. ft. of A/C finished space, and additional 3500 sq. ft. of covered space that includes, 5-car garage, unfinished room above the garage, balcony, sun room, patio etc., This plan also has large negative edge swimming pool with a lap lane.

Normally, via standard process of contacting, builder quoted for $1.4 million to build this house and 15% is their fee. This doesn't include swimming pool, landscape or land cost.

But then, I went to local HBA (Home Builder Association) web site. Down loaded all 383 custom builders contact info. I prepared two pages of builder selection criteria and a form for builder credentialing information. I faxed my documents along with pdf file of my plan to 10 builders at a time. I systematically started to contact all builders and kept a log in excel sheet. I told them I have the 383 builders list and will contact few at a time until i find a builder who will build my home for a fix fee of $80K for his fee regardless of the cost of my house. I explained, that it is not fair to pay extra to a builder just because I pick more expensive items (upgrades)

I think, only extra work on your part should be compensated extra. Picking cheaper or more expensive marble, appliances, kitchen top, light fixtures should increase your fee. Cost plus or fix price is not fair.

I did not have to contact more than 50 builders to find a reputable builder with past experience and reference check who has agreed to work for me for $80K. I have pointed out the extra incentive for him that he will then have access to our subdivision to get more business.

I am paying him $80K in 10 installments over 9 months. I also insisted that I will not go by any contract that is written by one party. In the contract I have put in a clause that I reserve the right to select my supplier and/or subs if I find builder's supplier or subs are more expensive or of lower quality.

Now the builder is going through my HOA credentialing process. I think I will save $100K to $120K in builder fee alone.

I plan to do the mass mailing for bids and quotes for all major works, like foundation, framing, roofing, electrical etc.

Most Architect and builders do not like people like me. I am a consumer advocate.

What do you think about the process I am using?

I want to post pdf files of my house plan. How do you post pdf files here? Just drag and drop or copy and paste did here did not work.

Comments (16)

  • brickeyee
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "I plan to do the mass mailing for bids and quotes for all major works, like foundation, framing, roofing, electrical etc."

    This means you have no idea what costs may be since you do not even have bids out.

  • PRO
    Epiarch Designs
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    What you did is called drafting, not architecture. Anyone can draft and learn a CAD software. Often times you pay architects for various things such as design ideas and production, detailing, spec'ing, etc. Architect often employ drafters to draw their plans. If your design is exactly as you think you want it, then great. Nice $$$ savings, especially on that size of a project. However I just hope you do not ever consider "what could have been" in your design and layouts.
    I would also be curious to see how your local premitting office views your work. It could be just fine, it various all over the place. Around here non-archs can build anything under 2 stories above grade and under 3000 sqft. However depending on the design, the site, etc, you are sometimes required to have an engineer's stamp no matter what.
    However being on the design side of the fence, I agree with you 100% that contractors should not base cost on % of dollars spent. Going with nicer finishes typically costs more for materials, but same install time and labor. yet % they make are higher for a double markup. I do not agree with this and good you found someone to avoid this. Research is on your side. Find out prices of upgrades from suppliers, and double check the adds by the contractor.

    Good luck, hopefully your project goes as smoothly as you are hoping.

  • MunzerHaque
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @ lzerarc

    Thank you very much for your feedback.

    @ brickeyee
    The designer you have accepted the offer is fixing things where i might have made mistakes. Getting city permit is his and builders responsibility according to our contract.

    In my post it says, I got previous 3 bids all are around $1.4 million. So, yes, I do have idea how much the house will cost but I do not know how much each job (like, foundation, framing, roofing etc.) costs.

    How difficult it would be to find that out when I receive bids from several subs and suppliers. In this electronics age why should I not explore the possibilities from all the 483 builders in Dallas-Forth worth area?

  • marie_ndcal
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    It appears you are acting as the prime contractor. Have you ever built a house before or dealt with suppliers? What about lien releases for all the material brought on the property? Clean up? Insurance for those who work on your property? Time and weather delays? Quality of materials? As to permits, we found out that we got our own permits because most contractors will not take time to get them for a single job. Most permits (in CA) have to be posted on the job for the building inspectors to see. Are you familiar with codes?
    Lots of things to think about.

  • juniork
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I think Marie has a point. You have a construction manager. He is taking none of the financial risk, and is there to make sure things are going smoothly. If something happens, though (windows ordered wrong, need to be reordered; city says they want a thicker retaining wall, so you have to get the concrete guys out there again; etc), the overages aren't coming out of his fee. I did it a little differently, but similar concept. I have a fixed fee for the building, and a lump sum allowance for all of my finishes. His words were, "I don't care if your flooring is $4/sf or $12/sf, I'll still install it.". The issues that have come up, he has taken care of, at no extra cost to me (if you get around the fact that ultimately, ALL the costs come out of my pocket!).
    Also, that's ALOT of time you're spending on this. I barely have enough time to pick my finishes, and shop for those to get a good bargain (eBay and craigslist are very time consuming...I once missed out on a Sub Zero fridge by hours!). I couldn't imagine trying to get the "best deal" for each sub, as well.
    Best of luck!

  • jmagill_zn4
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Don't get me wrong I think you will save money. I don't think however it will be near what you expect. I have GC's my own home twice.

    The subs may bid very good prices but they will provide you with the bare min. for that price and your bid documents are never though enough to make sure you have covered everything the first time. Especially on a home that size.

    No one who builds the first time every has everything covered no matter how much homework you do.

    The subs will not make you their priority and the first time things go off schedule, your build becomes less of a priority when they have other jobs with builders that will give them more jobs. It will go of schedule, they all do. A good GC is paid to minimize those problems and put the hammer to subs who want more work from him.

  • MunzerHaque
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @ Marie and others,

    Thanks for your feedback.

    I am not the GC. The builder is.
    If most of the custom home consumer started insist to builders that we do not want to pay extra for more expensive flooring or kitchen appliances. Then eventually, we can break custom builder's norm.

    I think, at this time, mostly, builders are ripping us off.
    Custom Home Builders make tons of money. Many custom home builders have attitude, "...just write me the check whenever i ask for it, whatever reason I ask for. If you can't do that then go buy a track home."

    i want to break that cycle.

  • jmagill_zn4
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Actually there are additional costs with the higher end materials.

    Higher builders insurance. It is based directly on finished value of the home.

    Labor costs are higher. The skill required to put in the high end finishes is different than the track home. Those skilled finishers get paid more. The job take longer as well.

    More money is spent protecting surfaces from damage, dust and building debris when it costs more to replace them.

    Warranty problems are much more expensive to take care of in a high end custom home and everyone from the subs to the builder need to cover that cost in their bid.

    Just a few of the added costs of more expensive materials.

  • allison0704
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Our GC only builds custom homes. He charges 10% flat fee. Like juniork, we were not to be charged for any overages. There were no change orders since our build was well planned, well thought out beforehand. Our GC was looking out for our best interest and our bottom dollar. If he didn't like an invoice, after the fact, he didn't hesitate to pick up the phone and ask for a better price (scaffolding, for example).

    I suppose we had an edge, being in the commercial side of things. We used some of our subs, some of his and a few new ones that he went on to use on his next homes. We're friends now - that says a lot.

    I'd love to see your plans. If you upload them to an online photo hosting website (Photobucket) you can copy the IMG code to post in a thread.

    I think you're wasting time contacting 483 builders. You can find the best builder for you by word of mouth. Nothing is better than a recommendation and seeing at least three of the houses they have built recently - talk to the owners.

    What are you going to base your finial decision on?

  • boogamite_yahoo_com
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    There are differences in how materials are installed that directly affect the cost - things you don't see, such as structure, substrates, fasteners, and/or adhesives. Installing high end materials using lower grade methods is false economy. Part of what you pay a builder for is to assure that materials are installed properly, regardless of the cost.

    Using a shotgun methodology to zero in on suitable builder is the wrong approach. More than likely, this will result in negative word of mouth regarding your project in the local building community. There must be a reason that most architects and builders do not like you, but for the life of me I can't figure it out.

  • MunzerHaque
    Original Author
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    @boogamite,

    Boogamite wrote:
    "More than likely, this will result in negative word of mouth regarding your project in the local building community.
    Boogamite wrote:
    "There must be a reason that most architects and builders do not like you, but for the life of me I can't figure it out."

    So you live in Dallas area and must have viewed my builder selection form.

    Let me tell you straight forward, most builders have their interest in mind first only then the owner's interest.

    Who cares if dozens of builders won't like me? I won't hire them. I pay them not vice versa. I just hired a builder whose interest complement's my interest. Sorry, you lost the bid.

    Welcome to global economy, capitalism 2.0, and the age of internet and social network. Builder can no longer dictate the terms for the consumers any more.

  • energy_rater_la
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    best of luck

  • renovator8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    As lzerac touched on earlier, what this narrow-minded narcissistic approach lacks is some entity to provide professional level expertise, guidance, and balance. From what I have read so far that fact will probably be painfully evident in the final product.

    Please sent us a photo when you are done.

  • highjumpgirl
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    I'm really interested to hear how this goes for you. I know everyone else is highly skeptical, and I think you may be a little "extreme" in your outlook....but I think I understand your point. I'm in a similar situation. I am turned off by Cost-Plus....because doesn't that give them total motivation to get my costs higher? While some will say, No, no a reputable builder won't do that... well, they probably will at SOME point! And I've heard (plenty) about how builders will get their money without you knowing about it.

    We designed our home before the real-estate bust, and now our budget is smaller, but the home plan is still just as large. And we love it madly, and don't want to change much. So my hope is that we can now build the "shell" of it... a basic version of it... and add "fancy" as time goes on. Since our business is in the real estate industry, we are very, very gun-shy, and want to start with the smallest mortgage possible. We might be able to afford more, even during the build, but are afraid to aim too high. We'd rather aim low, and add when it's comfortable. But it doesn't seem like there is much that can be added later, very effectively. I was told it costs 3 times as much to come back and finish rooms later. I'm thinking trimwork, light fixtures, appliances, etc. could be upgraded later (we already have appliances that we could start with)....

    ANYway... I also arranged with a builder to build our plan for a flat fee to him of $60,000. It's similar to yours (large, lg lot that we own). I was really excited about working with this guy, he's a longtime friend and I know his work, and he was excited about the project. I told him I wanted to hire him to help me get it built on our budget---help me find good deals on materials, etc., but maintain quality. I was willing to do lots of legwork, buy online, etc. However, his situation has changed, and he no longer seems excited about it. Actually, he seems to be really struggling to find work & finances for him have gotten much worse, so I expected he'd be more excited, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Not sure. $6,000 a month for 10 months....(he was confident he could get it built in close to 10 months)...doesn't seem that bad for an out-of-work builder (and there are a zillion of them here)....but he is changing his tune. I'm now talking to other builders.

    A friend here had their GC take them to sheetrock walls, and friend will hire the finish work. This is something I feel I could handle, so I may look at that option. (I've done tons of renovating, hiring flooring installers, etc.)

    I do think you have a point, and whenever change is in the air, resistance from the people who've made good money in a field can be extremely strong and hostile. (We lived thru a similar thing in our business....laws changed, and people in our field have fought as if in battle for years now, resisting the change. And I mean, people get mean & dirty!)

    But Interior Designers (for one example) have totally changed their business....because they used to be the only source for many items....which are now easily available online.... and I do think GCs may have some change to deal with in their industry & job. The internet has changed competition for everyone.

  • brickeyee
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    "If most of the custom home consumer started insist to builders that we do not want to pay extra for more expensive flooring or kitchen appliances. "

    So you want a custom home with cheap materials.

    Sounds like a wast of money to go custom, but go for it.

    U have not seen many million dollar homes with Formica counters and lower end appliances.

    Hopefully you will not ever have to sell.

  • renovator8
    12 years ago
    last modified: 9 years ago

    Brickeyee has touched an important point: the most difficult design issues for homeowners are balance, proportion, and appropriateness. They are sometimes spoken of as having good taste or design sense but for a house they are much more complicated than that.

    The individual design elements can be selected from what is available from the internet and home improvement stores and shown in home magazines but fitting these elements together well is really hard. Here's a tip: approaching design primarily as a consumer trying to avoid retail pricing or mark-ups can quickly cause you to loose perspective.

    To understand those difficult issues takes design professionals many years of hands-on experience but most homeowners only get to deal with them once or twice in their lifetime. So shop til you drop but get someone with a professional perspective to help you.

    Building for the cheapest price should never be your primary goal.