Why do you want to buy land 5-10 years before you're ready to build?

I think Hollyspring's point is that buying land now with the expectation that it will still be considered buildable later is a risk. Particularly if you need to improve a road that goes along wetlands. You can't know how the rules will change, but you can be sure they won't make building easier or cheaper.

Also, I wouldn't buy the land unless you are comfortable with the highest estimates you've gotten for septic and well, and I definitely would plan to drill your own well. I've only heard of people sharing wells in a handful of cases. Given that the site is heavily wooded, and you aren't planning to build close to the neighboring home, I would guess that drilling your own well would be cheaper than paying for a "well agreement" and running all that pipe. And then you'd have all that pipe to maintain, and you might have issues with insufficient supply from your neighbor's well, etc...

We are building are currently building on a site that is rolling and heavily wooded and has some protected wetlands and while I love our site, it is NOT a cheap thing to do, and a lot of the extra costs don't scale, so building a small home may not save you as much as might like. And in many ways our site is easier to build on than yours.

I wouldn't buy a lot like this unless I was ready to charge forward with building, or I was confident it was a good investment independent of my hope to build on it eventually.

First off, I think I was a bit thrown by Hollysprings' number and I didn't take the time to thank them, so thank you to both Hollysprings and zone4newby for taking the time to help me out.

I understand that things will probably change in 5-10 years. My hope is that my income will also be changing for the better in that time, and my wife's as well. I think if we devoted every spare dollar to it, we could probably afford to build on the site (Not at $1.2m, but maybe half that) right now, but it just isn't how we're wanting to move forward.

The biggest reason that we're looking to buy this particular property stands well with your last statement. We have the signed purchase agreement to buy at about 1/5 the tax assessed value for 2013 and we have the cash to buy it outright, so we'd be getting a screaming deal on this much acreage. My personal opinion on it is that I can't see this much land, this close to a major city (1 hour to downtown Seattle), ever being cheaper than what we're buying it for; even if we don't end up using it as more than a camping site, we shouldn't see our purchase money be lost.

So, numbers like $1.2M just to begin building...those numbers make me want to drop the agreement and let someone else deal with the catastrophe that this land would be in that case. Maybe I'm entirely naive, but I don't see where that cost would come from, so that's why I'm hoping Hollysprings will come back and give me some details to where that number came from, and give me specific questions to ask any contractors I bring to the site for estimates before the feasibility study is complete.

Again, thank you both and if anyone else has an opinion (especially critical) please let me know.

My main concerns would be: can you build the kind of house you want on this lot, what is involved in upgrading/maintaining the driveway (this is a huge unknown for me, but I suspect it could be pricey), what are your options for broadband internet (rural property can't always get wired broadband, and may or may not have good cell coverage), and do you and your wife want to live here badly enough to deal with the commute every day.

Don't minimize the commute-- if you both need to be in Seattle 5 days a week, you're looking at investing 20 person-hours into living here every week. Then you'll have all the maintenance involved in home ownership and having so much land on top of that. If it's just the two of you, you could choose to live somewhere close in, and take vacations some place remote when you want to get away from it all.

Good luck deciding!

Ugh. Response got eaten.

Bottom line. Stop focusing on Holly's random 1.2 million. Where did you come up with that Holly? Please break it down for the OP. You are always throwing around statistics without backing them up.

OP: First step would be to figure out if septic is possible on the lot. That will cost some money and take some time but not a ton of either.

Ask the building department about paving through wetlands. Make sure the wetlands are mapped and not in mitigation. On our lot, the previous owner built a driveway and his worked accidentally went into the wetlands which caused the lot to go into wetland mitigation for 3 years. But the driveway only cost him about 15K to put in gravel. There were other fees for wetland mapping and mitigation but just a couple grand.

Bring a builder out to the lot and see what they say. Also meet with the fire marshall to make sure you could turn a fire truck around. And also, make sure you meet with the utility people. Burying conduit and water hookup are each sort of expensive (ours was 3K for water and about 2K for conduit under the driveway.

Hope that helps a bit, we are in WA too- on one of the islands near seattle. My first response was long but got eaten by garden web.

We have the signed purchase agreement to buy at about 1/5 the tax assessed value for 2013

The tax assessment doesn't mean much. What you really need to know is what are the comps for land in the area. That will tell you if the price for this land is good or not.

Do they do perc tests in your area or are soils analysis required? A soils analysis is a more thorough test and will help determine what type of septic system you need. But, as mentioned above, that can change over time and what is allowed today may not be allowed in 5-10 years.

Along those lines, the Critical Areas Designation has expired. What was allowed to do at the time it was done may have changed and may change again. Even if another one was done now, it might expire before you build since it appears they are only good for five years.

I am not apposed to buying land 5-10 years before you intend to build. We did that ourselves and for several years we did not even see the land as we were not in the area. However, the land was within a development. We did have to deal with doing a soils analysis because the previous perc test was not longer valid.

These are the same two lots that someone else or perhaps you posted about some months back. There is a power easement in front and Sugarloaf Mountain behind.

I would suggest hiring an architect to do a feasibility study. They will look at local ordinances, setbacks, wetlands and steep slope issues, though they will probably not research the surrounding areas. However the study will only let you know what limitations you will have if you built now, not 10 years down the road.

Have you checked the surrounding values using the King County GIS Parcel viewer? And the issues being adjacent to Sugarloaf Mountain Forest, hunting etc? A lot of this can be done using the internet.

Here is a link that might be useful: KC GIS

Henry - Oh, *really* now. I'd love to see that thread if you can find it - I've searched here for a little while to find it and come up empty. Do you have any idea what an architect would charge for a feasibility study? I will be looking into it next week myself but it'd be nice to have a general idea. I don't think the power easement would bother us a bit, and so long as my collie doesn't end up shot (he won't be let to run loose anyhow) I think we'll be okay with whatever hunting might go on far in my back yard.

dekoeboe - I realize the tax assessment doesn't mean much, but it's all I personally have to go off of. I just sent off an email to my realtor to ask for local sales data and pricing so I have a better idea than what I find on the local MLS, but by the MLS listings I'm buying *way* under average value per acre. Also, I'm pretty sure it's perc tests and not soil analysis here, at least at the current time - trust me folks, I understand that in 10 years this all might be a moot point.

sweet.reverie - Sorry your response got eaten, hopefully there wasn't some gold nugget of info that got swallowed up in there! I agree that the first step is septic. I found a company here that will do the perc test for a flat rate of $250 so I'm moving forward on that.

zone4 - Thanks for coming back, I hope I'm not seeming too argumentative here, I'm honestly trying to learn. I will admit I won't let you folks on the internet talk me out of buying the land directly, but I will let you talk me into things like having an architect do a feasibility study, and that study can *definitely* talk me out of it (or make me do a happy dance). I understand your concern on commute time, my wife is actually changing jobs right now because 1-1.5 hour commutes are just too difficult. However, this property is only about 10 minutes from the home we currently live in (on 0.25 acres and surrounded by neighbors), and probably only adds about 5 minutes to the commute time for both of us, so that isn't a concern. Yes it's just the two of us, but there's no way we can live this close to people for the rest of our lives. If we had it our way they'd renew the homestead acts and we'd go claim 600 acres of bare wilderness.

Thanks all for your help so far, and please keep the comments coming!

So, how familiar are you with King Co? The note about things getting more restrictive with time is SO RIGHT ON. King Co is one of the worst, esp when wetlands are concerned. You might have an okay perc test, but if it isn't in the right spot with regard to your wetland site, then they won't let you do it. A friend of mine in KingCo Woodinville had a Woodinville lot with approved septic, until they were ready to build and the septic rules had changed. Now, their lot is too expensive for their budget to build on. And, they can't sell it for the same reason--no body wants a lot that requires a lot of money to neighbors, etc to get a usable septic.

Additionally, with the shrinking staff of the KingCo personnel, it is getting to be very difficult for builders and homeowners to obtain permits, get through development reviews, etc. You'll be paying more money for your contractor (or you'll be spending a lot of time personally) for them to have to deal with KingCo rather than a local municipality.

Finally, you're going to run into potential issues to build "in the wilderness" due to ever-more-strict Growth Management Regulations. A 5-10 yr from now build window will not improve the outlook on this.

Wells? Well, your well-drilling number is too low, most likely. The best way to get a number on that is to see where your water table is (maybe ask the neighbors how deep theirs is) and then find out what kind of soil is in your area. We have a lot of ROCK around here. Trying to drill through a layer of rock for your well isn't going to be inexpensive. My BIL drilled a well recently in central washington and had a well bill of ~40k. I guess I'm skeptical 10-30k will cover it.

Finally, I am not a geo-engineer, but you'll probably want to hire one, you'll want to make sure you have a house and driveway that will stay put. Will you have to put piers down into rock? Will you have to change the location of the driveway? Etc. You might want to look into a Geo-Engineer. There is at least one well-known office of them in Redmond.

One last thought--if they logged all the big trees, they've already taken the value of wood off the land. You won't get that value. You'll just be spending money to clear what they left when it is time.

Best. It would be fabulous if someone could find the old post. Olivesmom was posting on land in the area, but I am not sure this was one of them. Hopefully someone will "speak up" or find it.

OOh, maybe I did find it!

Here is a link that might be useful: Is it this lot?

It *is* that lot. Looks like she didn't decide on buying it after all.

My wife and I hadn't really cared about the power lines (they're huge, but far off in the distance and almost impossible to see/hear from the property) and we haven't heard a peep from the quarry at any time we've been out there, either. To be honest, I haven't even seen gravel trucks or anything. I'm not sure how much goes on there these days, but I might stop by and ask them what their current and future plans are.

OK folks, you're all making me very sad. It looks like this lot just might be a nightmare to build on, especially in 10 years.

We don't have the money to afford this kind of acreage any closer to Seattle, Our original intention was to look *way* further out, 2-3 hours, and have the house we'd build be a vacation home and eventual retirement home, until we found this very affordable plot just a few minutes from our current home.

8.6 acres near Kent, for $35,000. Until I came to this forum, I didn't see how it could go wrong. Buy it with cash, hold it for a few years while building up some cash to down payment a sizable construction loan, and then move forward with building. My dreams are crashing around me with every post.

I need to go to bed and think about this. Someone should stop by my place around 11:30 to hit me over the head with a frying pan (preferably a hefty cast iron pan) so I will be able to sleep tonight, otherwise it's probably not going to happen...

Yeah, that is too good of a price for that much land. I would go for a smaller, better suited lot and go from there.

Olives mom has a current post, you could ask her. I would check what other lots are selling for in the area and compare. Also see if land typically sells for 1/5 the tax value around there.

I was quoted about 3k for a feasibility study, but that was in western NC

TAANSTAAFL If something looks like too good of a deal, it IS. Cheap land in an expensive location is cheap because it takes lots of money to develop. Add in the fact that you aren't looking to build now, but years from now, and you're taking a huge risk with your money. Expensive land is expensive because it removes the risk that it can't be built on from the equation.

Even then, if you aren't going to build until 10 years from now, things change for the more restrictive even on flat land in an already being developed subdivision. You can only predict that a lot will be buildable for exactly how long all of the current governmental approvals are good for. Apply for a permit one month after that approval expires, and it's a long road ahead to regain it.

WA is known for being "green" and that translates into a more onerous burden on you when dealing with marginally buildable locations. Which that lot is in MANY more ways than "just" wetlands, or being hilly, or not having current approvals, etc. It's not an ant hill of "ifs" here, it's a big old hill of "ifs". You might be entirely throwing away 35K plus 10 years of interest on it.

The 1.2 was worst case scenario in 10 years time if environmental regulations change to be more restrictive and you can't get both a septic and a build site out of the place without some high tech methods. Add in the possibility that you'd have to put in a real road that has to be done with special construction procedures plus pay for wetlands mitigation elsewhere. And more paid for by you for environmental impact studies would have to be done to see if any of that would even be possible.

Then, you'd get to also throw some money at an actual house.

On the other hand, in 10 years time, even marginal land closer in will become more valuable. It might still take 1.2 to develop into a buildable lot, but there might be plenty of people willing to pay that because outward migration from the city have made that relatively "close in". If you couldn't afford that at that time, you'd have had 10 years of using the land to camp on for vacations, and still manage to turn it over for a profit. IF you enjoy camping enough and there are areas of interest close enough by to make camping there an OK "destination" for your vacations. For me, that charm would wear off after about the second trip there where I had to use a camp toilet for the whole stay and stay covered in insect spray to keep from being eaten alive. If I'm going to do that, I want to do it at a different location every trip that makes it "worth" the lack of conveniences to just be in that location. YMMV.

I dunno. I guess my experience is different since I am building in a city that is notorious for being slow and difficult and VERY green. My lot has a ton of wetlands and has had issues in the past but it all got solved and hundreds of thousands of dollars were not spent. The city, in the end, wanted the 5+k building permit fee so they want to get you to a house, even though they may be slow and picky.

I have another friend who just built right in Seattle (just finished last month) and he said King county was similar- slow and picky but he was able to build just fine.

The MAIN reason I would pass on this lot is it is just too cheap! You can't get 8.6 buildable acres for 35K hardly anywhere, so that is red flag right there. Someone is not telling you something, so why pay money to find out what it is.

Our lot is 2.5 acre but it backs up to a 7 acre lot and it heavily wooded- so if you have 10 years, wait till you find the perfect spot.

Based on my experience, I would not buy a lot expecting to build in five years plus. That is based on other friends and folks we know that had other issues and never ended up building five + years forward. They have all had issues that caused them to sell the property - and probably not a gain - more like a headache.

Building IN Seattle is not dealing with the county office--you're dealing with the Seattle Office. Building in Issaquah is dealing with the Issaquah office. Building in unincorporated KingCo is a whole different ball of wax than in any incorporated portion of the county...

Just saying. And, yes, 35k in KingCo for 8.6 acres? Clearly there is a reason. The small development going in behind me, granted, closer in than Kent, was 1.8 million for 3.5 acres.

Also to the question about land values--our assessments are based (on a 3 yr average) of local land sales. Most houses in the area have a property tax assessed value almost entirely in "land value" on their tax letters. I think last year, my house was only 10% of my taxed value (the other 90% being land value).

Whoever owns that piece of property ought to be fighting the assessed value with the county. The assessor is clearly off.

Just BTW and in case you're still considering this, I know of a case where a purchaser thought the easement (local utility company using, governed by state or county code) was the basically the cleared area based on lines drawn on the papers that apparently related to the immediately exercised rights (i.e., the cleared area). Turned out it was actually a federal easement over 400 feet wide.

What effects could climate change, technology changes and civil defense issues have on future use? I'm curious but have absolutely no idea.

Aside from that speculation, lovely and exciting as this property is in itself, it's in an undeveloped area with a number of adverse external influences that mean you really don't know what you're going to have 10 years from now. Could you afford to take the loss? Setting other current unknowns aside (whatever THEY are), it might be a good purchase for a speculator, none of whom have stepped up yet, however.

Another just BTW because my brief note is doing its usual thing, we built on a smaller hill, but the heavier, more torrential rains we're getting these days in our area of the South are tearing out our gravel drive, a drive that was here for decades before we built, and depositing it on the road below. The runoff channel alongside can't handle it. Expectation of rain often dumped at once in future means we now get to grade a whole new, longer one starting in a more viable location and curving across an area where we can tilt most of the runoff into a pasture. The steepest part where it starts down on the road will have to be paved. Changing rain patterns here are also having a profound effect on which properties we're looking at in the mountains for a little summer getaway and meant we had to pass up something very close to perfect--one seasonal-cataract driveway is enough. I'm getting very, very serious about earth movement potential as well.

Good to know Kirkhall- I always hear people say "building in seattle is hard because of the permit offices". I did not know there was such a difference in unincorporated king county.

Kirkhall, I hate to be argumentative here, but what do you have to go off of to say that the assessor is 'clearly' off? Is there not a chance that someone bought the land and simply can't afford to hold onto it any longer, and is trying to get just enough to pay off the loan? From what little info we've gotten from the seller's agent, that seems to be the case here. It appears that a couple bought the land some time ago and now the couple is no longer a couple; that sort of thing can easily influence the sale price of property.

I have contacted olivesmom and hope to hear back from her as to why they passed on this piece.

Tomorrow I will be going in to the county and getting whatever pertinent information they're willing to give, and also contacting a couple architectural firms to see what a professional feasibility study will cost me. Oh, and calling to get the perc done.

I'm not giving up, not until I have some more hard evidence that this property is not buildable (without extreme funds). There's homes on each side of this property, so I'm hoping it wouldn't be so bad. Also, nobody here has brought up the potential point of in 10 years, perhaps water and sewer would have been brought here by local development; it's *possible* things might change for the better in 10 years, as well as possible for the worse. It's a bit of a gamble that I need to do more research on.

If other people are passing due to the proximity of power lines and quarry, that's fine. I really could care less about those things. The power lines are across the street and have no potential for encroachment on that land, and the quarry...meh. I'm not one of those city dwellers who desires to live out in the country and then complains about the smell of agriculture.

The question still begs to be asked "why would someone sell a large building lot for a tiny fraction of what it should be worth"? As someone mentioned if something sounds to good to be true it usually is!

They may sell it for a slight discount, but the chances of them just giving it away for nothing is a long shot. For example for our lot, it was originally on the market for 200K, then dropped to 175K and sat there for awhile (still out of our budget) and then the owner (who had owned the lot since the 60's and it was paid off and the guy is pretty wealthy) just decided he wanted it gone and dropped the price to $135K, where we bought it. And it was going to go quick, we put an offer in two days after the drop and there already multiple offers. We got a great deal for 2.5 acres (beautiful acres, even with the wetlands) for my city. Especially for everything that had been done (wetlands mapped, driveway put in, conduit for all utilities under the driveway, water hookup paid for). But saving 50-75K is not the same as saving $200-500K, you know? If it were really a good deal, like a screaming good deal from desperate sellers, it would have been bought by now either by a consumer or a spec builder.

Trios, I imagine a lovely home can almost certainly be built up there, with a driveway, for much less than a king's ransom. After all a road's been cut in already, and we don't want pavement and are only paving the stretch we must, etc. People do it all the time, and many of them like me see a wetlands area as desirable, assuming it leaves buildable area of course.

Assuming the civil engineering factors are acceptable, the big question is what will be at the bottom of your driveway, including that power line easement. Surely they couldn't clear a bunch more trees and put windmills along there, could they? Aside from that fantasy, it's not unreasonable, given what's already in that neighborhood, to suspect that road could be very ugly, unpleasant, and even inadequately policed. If you can imagine the worst and still think you'd like to live there, this neglected site has found its people. :)

The assessor is clearly off because it is "1/5" the assessed value and it hasn't sold immediately. At 1/5th the value, if it was a clear winner, it would have sold by now. We are not in a market around here (anywhere in KingCo) that something priced right won't sell in 3-6 months time. And, Olivesmom posted it back in, what, January? (I don't remember).

So, that makes the assessor's office clearly OFF on this property.
The good news, if you buy it for 35k and they have it assessed at 150k, then you should be able to get the value lowered some for tax burdens.

Not saying it isn't a deal, I just don't think it is a deal at 80% "off". And, I don't think it is a deal if you are waiting 10 yrs to build.

In the thread with Olivesmom, it sounds like they got some sort of paperwork from the county. I hope you are able to get that information as well from the county and/or Olivesmom.

I think that olivesmom didn't buy it doesn't necessarily mean that it is bad. Having read a lot of olivesmoms posts over the last few months, I am not sure they know yet if they want to build, buy existing, buy into a development, etc. They just aren't really to the firm stage of saying "we are going to build from the ground up, a custom build, on our property, with an architect to design to the specifics of our property, etc". You'll find other posts by her asking about this particular house, or that particular house, or this bank-owned house, etc. I suspect you'll get an answer similar to that as well as, hopefully, some additional info about this property to help you make a decision.

One other note, I know now this isn't what has happened with this particular property, but we have a property just down the street that is a grandfathered horse farm (in the city). The county wanted to have their property taxes be $X huge dollar amount based on what the one right behind me sold for (just 3 blocks away--so theorhetically a good comp). The woman of the horse property is also a REA. She put her property up for "sale" at ~ 1/2 the county's appraised value and it sat, and sat, and sat. For over a year. She was successful in arguing with the county assessor that her property wasn't worth what they said it was because it didn't sell in a whole year's time. Why? wetlands and wetland restrictions. None of the builders want to mess with it and the property isn't as valuable to them with all the wetland mitigations as a property just a few blocks away without it. So, I do believe anyone buying this property can also use the time on the market at the price to help lower their assessed value.

Introduce yourself to the neighbors and ask them what they know about the property. Cannot hurt.

I have been following this thread, and I do hope you her back from Olivesmom.

You said 'meh' to living by a quarry. Have you lived by one before let alone spent time around one? Hopefully its not active, but I will say rocks can fly very far. I would also worry about what the blasting will do to my foundation . I actually grew up in a neighborhood with nearby cave blasting and blasting under our neighborhood. I would get in touch with the quarry and talk about the answers to the architect.

You also said 'meh' to people hunting practically in your backyard. Well I would not be okay with that. I've grown up in the Midwest and now live on acreage in the country with a lot of wildlife. Every idiot thinks they can go out and shoot. Especially in an unfamiliar area-and of course when there are lots of trees they get disoriented and may start shooting toward your house. You may have signs posted to stay behind a certain point but that rarely happens. Either they don't care or they're too excited about the hunt.

Not trying to bring you down. I grew up in the city, but my husband wanted me to get acclimated to country life before we moved to the family farm in an even more rural area. Growing up in an urban area but still familiar with such things I was surprised at how little I actually knew, and this could be a very expensive lesson for you.

Good luck.

Trios- Hi! I can't believe I didn't notice your thread until now. I live nearby in Maple Valley and would like to build in Ravendale. So far we haven't found a lot we like enough to purchase and we still look at existing homes from time to time as well.

As far as this particular lot, we were attracted to it because of the low price but decided to pass. I assume you've walked to the top, it's very steep and we jut don't want to deal with that. Then there's the wetland issue. And the quarry. I never heard any noise when we are there either but I have seen the big gravel trucks going down that part of the road, not sure if they were coming/going from that particular spot.

Pretty much we've decided that we want a somewhat level lot with enough space for a good size lawn. This lot would not work for that. It could be nice though, but I do think building on it will be expensive due to the slope and king county will not make it easy regarding the "wetlands".

As far as sugarloaf mountain, if you google it you should be able to find a king county document on it as they own most of it. I actually wouldn't mind living next to it as the public is permitted (there's just no legal public access). You should be aware that the county does plan on harvesting some of the timber, not that I can see king county clear cutting- maybe more of that selective harvesting or whatever it's called.

Have you looked at the property a few lots over? It's not as large but similar in price. Looking at the elevation map it doesn't appear as steep, but the property only has access to kent-kangley via an easement and I don't think we are comfortable with that.

Also, another lot or two over is a smaller property with a decent mobile on it. I briefly thought about buying it and renting out the mobile until we were ready to build. The property is bank owned, think they want 150k for it.

I think I'm set up for receiving emails here, not sure. But if you'd like to try please email/pm me. I've looked at every lot in ravensdale and most in maple valley. I would not buy in kent, that's just me though. Same thing with Renton- no thanks. Have you looked in auburn? I'd imagine there are some affordable lots there.

Good luck! And I feel your frustration. Every lot we've looked at has some sort of issue even the pricey lots.

Eta: there's no hunting on sugarloaf mountain, so no worries there. Maybe illegal motorbiking (but that's on the other side I think). And one other thing- I really dislike the way they cleared this lot. It's kind of a mess and seems to me would be difficult to clean up due to the slope. We looked at it during the winter so it was easy to see. Maybe right now it does look so bad, but perhaps it doesn't bother you anyway.

This post was edited by olivesmom on Tue, May 28, 13 at 16:14

Olivesmom! I sent you an email on here but it must not have gotten to you. Thank you so much for weighing in.

I think I figure out why the price is so low. Due to the clearing of timber, there is a building moratorium on these lots for 6 years from March 2012, so a little less than 5 years remain. In my case, this would work out really very well, since we're not planning on building for at least that long anyways. I would have to verify that they'll be OK with planting some native vegetation, as we'd like to start some rhodies and other such things now and let them get well adjusted to the lot, but I don't think that'd be an issue.

Other than the moratorium, the county has no restrictions on building. It's zoned for 1 house per 5 acres, I can drill a well (cost TBD), I can put in septic (perc test TBD, and buying is contingent on it), and I shouldn't have any problem at all with maintaining the current road.

I drove to the quarry today to see what work there was like on a normal business day during normal working hours. There was nobody there, and the gate was locked with about 4 different padlocks. That was kind of surprising to me, but I'm sure if it's shut down it's only temporary. I still don't think it's going to be a major concern for us.

I understand you have all cautioned me against buying and holding the land, but if the reason it's so cheap now is the building moratorium, and I can't see any other reason, then this is a perfect opportunity for us.

Double post. Database errors of some sort...

This post was edited by Trios on Tue, May 28, 13 at 16:33

Trios- I hope it works out for you then, sound like the building moratorium won't be an issue with your time frame.

I am curious though, are you planning on having the winter water study done this year? I recall reading in the paperwork that one would be required and to do so would involve improving the gravel road.

I hope the county doesn't prohibit you from planting vegetation. Your plan for the rhododendrons sounds lovely!

Please keep us updated and best of luck!

We have finished up feasibility addressing many of the things you have listed on a lot in Unicorp. King County between Renton and Issaquah over the last 6 months. Word of advice on the wetlands, there are many ways to get wetlands documentation that will suffice for permitting. We were able to get a partial delineation on our property since it is on acreage and we are only building in one spot. It kept the official record clear of "wetlands" for future sale if and when that should happen. If we had demanded the full CAD study it would have lowered the value of the lot considerably for future use. Our lot is gently sloped but we are working with that in the house design. It is costing us more than a flat ready-to-go lot but where's the fun in that? As suggested, use a good desiner and or architect, it will be like swimming upstream if you try to modify a set of existing plans. Good luck!

I've never heard of a building moratorium. How do they come to be? Is there any risk of it being extended?

It was explained to me that the idea is to give a site that's recently been logged a 'breather' from development or further clearing in order for native plants and wildlife to have a chance to move back in (esp. for soil erosion's sake). There isn't a question about it being extended, it's pretty clear in the paperwork that it's a six year moratorium and I asked that question at the county office and they hadn't heard of it ever having been done.

My biggest concern right now is that the current owner of the property must have known about the moratorium but did not disclose it on the seller's disclosure; what else is she hiding? I'm going to need to be quite thorough, and I'm going to write an email to my agent to ask for an extension of the feasibility study and push out the closing date to accommodate this.

My wife and I just bought 12 acres at auction. We were not looking at buying anything for about a year. It was a great deal and in a perfect location between both of our jobs. I previously looked at buying another piece of land and glad I didn't b/c I would've missed out on this piece of land that is way better. From time of purchase we are looking at building in about 15 months. I would not buy anything unless you are planning on building within 2 years b/c things (jobs, economy....) change. At minimum you need 6 months after purchase just to get all of the plans figured out for a particular piece of land and arrange for you builder or subs (of owner-build). Like other said a good deal now might not be a good deal 5-10 years down the road if things change in your life (which it will). Wait until you are at most 2 years out 1 would be better.

In this case, the lot is only $35K. That might be a lot of money for paving a patio, but...for land, let's face it, not exactly. A loan on that would be a minor monthly payment, plus even if bought outright it's unlikely the entire investment would be lost if they decided not to build there.

Since this is not an established neighborhood and has definite adverse influences, the risks of what change could bring are much higher than they would be in, say, an infill lot in an established neighborhood. And with those power lines there, future appreciation will always be significantly lower than in neighborhoods without them. But,...$35K.

Another reason for an outrageously low price could be a market glutted with more desirable properties whose prices have crashed. As an appraiser in Southern California when that real estate bubble burst after the end of the Cold War, I saw a number of properties whose deficits made them effectively unsellable--temporarily. Zero demand. Plus, recessions do not make people adventurous, they make them retrench.

I wouldn't want to encourage anyone to take a risk that could hurt them badly, but for me the building moratorium explanation would be enough encouragement to at least keep researching this property for feasibility. The risk of having to start over with new plans in 8 years might be taken with eyes wide open, understanding that not only would shopping for a replacement likely be notably more expensive then, but that it could mean having to settle for significantly less.

Trios: do you have the previous septic feasibility reports from 2004 and 2007? I can send them to you if you need them.

Huard Septic does an excellent feasibilty if you need some further work done on your septic system design. They were highly recommended by a few people and have been a pleasure to work with.

Olivesmom - No! My realtor has been trying to get that information, but the seller has changed realtors and the new one didn't have that paperwork. My email address is will at cole-mail dot com. If you could forward those to me I'd really appreciate it.

MFatt16 - thank you for the recommendation. I can see I'm going to need to print this page for my records if I decide to buy this property, for all of this great info.

Thanks again to everyone who has put your two cents in so far even if you feel like I'm ignoring your advise. I'm going to take my time in this and am listening to all of you.

Trios: just forwarded you the documents. Let me know if they don't go through.

Well, all, I think we've just about decided to back out of the purchase. The documentation Olivesmom sent over shows 'marginal to unacceptable' conditions for a septic system on the site. I'd be willing to bet on the quarry not being an issue; I'd be willing to bet on the steep slopes and wetlands being manageable; I'd be willing to bet that the restrictions wouldn't change so much that a lot that has 'good' characteristics now would at least be 'fair' or 'marginal' down the road and allow for building. I am not willing to bet on 'marginal to unacceptable.'

So, I'm weighing spending the $250 for another perc test to verify or just moving on with life.

Olivesmom, thank you so very much for your help. I see that the agent that sent you those documents is the same one that they're using now, yet somehow they "Don't have the perc documents" (in the same way they "Didn't know about the building moratorium"). I think that in order to sell the property the seller's agent is providing less and less info to potential buyers and hoping they don't do their homework, which is just bad business practice and makes me want to drop out of the transaction just on that premise.

Again, I would like to thank you all. If you have any further comments please drop them here.

Trios, Good decision and like was mentioned earlier "when something seems to good to be true, it usually is". Add in the fact that the sellers agent appears to be somewhat unethical and that would raise a huge red flag with me as well!

Trios, Good decision and like was mentioned earlier "when something seems to good to be true, it usually is". Add in the fact that the sellers agent appears to be somewhat unethical and that would raise a huge red flag with me as well!

Trios, I am so glad you were able to connect with Olives Mom on this :) What a headache saver. I hope you come back to report when you have found the right land for your family!

Anything less than full disclosure is a red flag. All of this information should be added to the documentation disclosed to anyone looking at this land. Who knows what else is being withheld, and how much money someone could spend to find out what's already been discovered. Before quickly moving on, if you're convinced this was the case, you might want to notify the department of licensing. At least to get a record started in case someone else runs into problems with this agent. Not enough people do this.

We were not given the results of previous feasibilities that had been done on our land. It had been on the market forever and although it had been studied before, it was always by the buyers and never the sellers. It isn't always a red flag. They can't give you info they don't have and many potential buyers keep the info they pay for. All in all, at that price anywhere in King Co. something is up, good call to walk away.

MFatt16 - The reason that the seller not disclosing this feasibility study is such a big red flag is that it was done by the owner of the land back in 2007, and it was provided to Olivesmom some six months ago but not to me when my agent asked for that specific info.

My agent is getting copies of all the pertinent information and is going to look into filing a grievance against the seller's agent.

Sweet Reverie - I'm so glad I was able to connect with her as well! We're only going to look at two more properties and if they don't turn out the way we're hoping, we'll just keep building our savings. We feel bad about that as we don't expect to see real estate prices this low again, but we're not going to stretch ourselves incredibly thin for it.

One final thank you to everyone, and especially to Olivesmom for noticing the thread and passing on your info.

And, now you can be at peace with your decision too. It is nice to have a final piece of information which simply makes the decision for you. Glad Olivesmom was able to furnish that piece for you.

This post was edited by kirkhall on Fri, May 31, 13 at 10:49

Wow, I can't believe they are getting away with that! Good move on walking away. That is a sugar coated mess I am sure now. As a good faith after asking for another extension we offered up our feasibility to the sellers if we decided to back out. I bet that property never sells.

So wonderful that you were able to use this forum and get the "back story" that helped with your decision.

But for the people reading this later, I just want to say that buying land well in advance of building is not always some disaster waiting to happen. We bought our land in 1991 and are building this summer. Yes, there can be some risk associated with that. We knew we didn't have wetlands and of course we had a perc test. The well was a crapshoot, but turned out to be a decent producer for the area. We did the pay-as-you-go method, put in a septic system years ago, but had nothing to hook up to it, and won't until next year. Although designs have changed, ours is grandfathered. Just wanted to go on the record that buying just prior to building is not the only way to go. We have literally camped on this property for 20 years and know precisely where the sun is at any time of day any time of year now. More than one way to do things, that's all.

(Oh yes, regarding the driveway-- we put ours in years ago and it was fine for us, but not able to hold up to construction traffic, so you can't always count that as "paid for" when you have to beef it up to handle all the concrete and lumber delivery trucks plus a lot of winter traffic it may not have been subjected to yet.)

Good luck in your building adventures! I'm sure the right property will come along, and after the thinking you've done for this one, you'll know it when you see it!

I'm glad you decided to back out of this deal - at least I think you have, haven't you? Or maybe I'm missing something here...but something didn't seem right about it...

At any rate, I'm assuming that you are aware of how pricey it is to build in King County? The permits and all can be pretty daunting. I say that because we looked at property in King Co earlier this year - Duvall area. The simple cost of the permits was overwhelming, not to mention the time involved in filling out those forms, and then if something went wrong, you'd need more forms and more money.

We wound up buying property at Pilchuck East, outside of Granite Falls. Have you looked up here? The permit process in Snoh County is relatively easy and low cost, you don't have to put in a well, the septic design is included in the property sale, and the seller seems to be accepting incredibly low offers on the parcels (at least 5 acres).

In no way, under no circumstances will we be buying property that is regulated by any HOA or other CC&Rs. The only 'community agreements' we'll agree to be bound by would be road maintenance and possibly well share agreements.

Yes, we have backed out of this sale agreement, and yes I'm sure it's expensive to build here; that's why we're looking to buy the land first while land is now cheap, and build later when we have saved more.

Either way, it might be a moot point; doesn't look like we'll be purchasing property anywhere. It seems our focus is shifting to saving more cash first.