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beachgirlok

Windows Leaking - Now Pulling Off Rock

beachgirlok
16 years ago

We moved into our home a little less than a year ago. Before the rock was put on, the lower windows on the North side leaked. First the builder brought out the window people. The builder told me he sprayed water on the windows, and that they didn't leak and that the problem was solved. There was no more leaking for some time and then one of the windows leaked again when there was heavy rain with wind from the north. My builder suggested we seal the rock (which I was convinced wouldn't work). I had another builder look at the window, and he thought the problem was the ledge below the window. The rock people removed the ledge, replaced it, and they thought they saw the problem. Then, during the recent heavy rains with north winds, we had leaking on all lower north windows which had second story windows directly above.

I have talked to approximately 10 builders and one architect and one engineer. None has heard of the "drain plane" of which I have read on the internet and this web site. My builder wants to seal all the rock on the entire house. He has refused to read anything about the drain plane and told me "you can read all you want on the internet" and that they problem is that the rock is too porous and that it isn't his fault because I picked the rock and the stone mason. Regardless of finger pointing, at this point I just want to get it fixed, and find someone that can fix it. I'm convinced that the current builder doesn't know how to.

My husband and I have (on our own) contacted the rock mason, and today they started removing the stone both above and below and between the upper and lower windows. We have friend that is a builder that builds multi-million dollar homes in VA that is visiting family locally coming in a couple of weeks to look at the windows. His plan is to put some sort of wind-ice membrane material to keep out the rain. There is house wrap up, but I suspect that it is been incorrectly installed and that the flashing on the windows is incorrectly installed.

How would you suggest protecting the house during the two-week period before the repairs can be done? They have almost removed one of the three sections today.

We have been abandoned by our builder who wants to put a bandaid on a heart attack. We are really at a loss as to where to turn as everyone who has looked at the house says they don't know how it could leak. When they get more rock removed I'll post pictures if it would help.

Comments (23)

  • lyfia
    16 years ago

    I'm sorry you're still dealing with this. I don't get how it could be the rock that leaks if it is only in window areas. If the rock leaked then it would leak all around the house window or not. Does it?

    I'm guessing you're right that the flashing isn't done correctly. Maybe you could post pics when you have the rock off.

    I wonder if roofing paper could be put up along with some tarps to cover the area until the guy is visiting. You might have to cover the windows, but it would only be temporary.

  • gardenchick1
    16 years ago

    First and foremost, the national building code requires a secondary moisture membrane which can be achieved through numerous products ranging from Tyvek paper wraps (which are very seldom installed correctly), 15 lb. felt tar paper and trowelable membranes (which are the best) manufactured by several different companies. These moisture barriers create the drainage plane. Each type and manufacturer has numerous details which show how penetrations and flashings should interface with these products.

    Regardless of which cladding you have water will somehow get in, especially during windy storms. The key is a way for the water to drain away -- hence a drainage plane to keep the water away from the substrate. Verify if a moisture barrier was put in place, whether it was it put in place properly and whether it was detailed properly with all products that interface with it.

    More than likely what you think is a window leak is actually a leak around the windows and this is the reason for proper flashings around all window openings. These flashings should include head flashings and sill pan flashings.

    Beside the fact that code requires a secondary moisture membrane, you need to build in redundancy with regard to moisture intrusion regardless of the wall assembly exterior skin.

    If your builder doesn't know these basic facts, shame on him. He should also not be abandoning you when you have a problem after the build is complete. Our home is 2 yrs. old and our builder still checks on us to see if everything is OK.

    Post pictures after the rock is removed and I will have my DH look at them more closely.

  • sierraeast
    16 years ago

    You are correct about incorrect flashing on the perimeter of the windows. Your builder friend coming up has the correct solution. Brick, stone, stucco has little to do with preventing moisture from getting behind it, that is why it is so important to have the underlayment/flashings installed properly.It is equally important to have that drainage plane where the moisture can run down and out not being able to pool anywhere along the walls or where meeting rooflines. Sealing the rock is useless and while it might slow it down, it will be something that would have to be done quite often in order to keep the moisture infiltration down but again, wont completely stop it. You are on the right track by pulling the stone back enough to get in there and flash out the windows properly. It's good that you have stone because any damaged ones upon removal can be easily matched up compared to brick. As far as a temporary sheild until the windows can be properly flashed, if you can tuck some plastic up under the top course of stone above the windows and roll them down and fastening with a peice of lath board and screws on the sides to keep the wind from blowing it off, maybe that would help. Someone else here might have another suggestion.

  • dixiedoodle
    16 years ago

    We are dealing with a similar issue, so I completely feel your pain. In our case, though, we haven't moved in yet...in fact, 2 years after beginning our build we still have not moved to insulating/drywall b/c of water issues from our brick which resulted from shoddy workmanship and improper flashing methods.

    First of all, sealing the stone is useless! It doesn't work, and if by some chance it did work for a little while...it is NOT a permanent solution!!! Do not allow them to offer this to you as such.

    You are lucky in the fact that the water appears to be localized to just the windows. Even if you have to completely remove every window and re-install/flash correctly, this should be able to be accomplished with no lasting effects. Sierra's comments above about the ease of matching stone compared to brick are very apt...the areas where our brick has already been replaced once (and in many instances 2x) will need to be replaced again b/c they are unable to match it completely.

    Best of luck. BTW, we are in VA and our GC builds million dollar homes...I hope our builder is not your friend. I have learned the hard way that reputation and expensive sales tags on homes they have previously built means less than nothing when a GC comes face-to-face with a very serious issue that they have never addressed.

  • sierraeast
    16 years ago

    Stone from the same supplier is generally easier to match up than brick though both have lot #'s and is best when you can match those #'s up.

  • worthy
    16 years ago

    "you can read all you want on the internet"

    Yeah, just a bunch of goofball know-it-alls with their lists of websites. Like this one from the Brick Industry Association of America. "Now who you gonna believe? Me, your outstanding builder, or some so-called experts?"

    My vote is for poor flashing. All brick and stone leaks an astounding amount of water. But even a properly installed traditional drainage plane of brick paper, flashing and weeps should handle the flow adequately.

  • beachgirlok
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Here are some of the pictures of the first section.

    This is the lower window. The water is coming inside the house at the top of the window.

    This is the section between the upper window and the first floor window.

    Here's the first section of the house.

  • sierraeast
    15 years ago

    Beachgirl, did you happen to notice when the windows were installed, did they install them after the house wrap directly over the wrap?

  • demerara
    15 years ago

    Looks like the housewrap was not put over the flange of the windows. Any water getting behind the rock and draining down the housewrap may well end up behind the flange and into the house at the top nailing flange.

  • sierraeast
    15 years ago

    Here's a link in pdf form. You have to scroll down to the window flashing section.

    To temporary cover the windows, 6 mil plastic taped to the housewrap at the top and sides letting it run down past the windows. Leave the bottom open for ventilation and to let moisture run out. If you are concerned about winds pulling off the plastic, run a piece of 1/4" lath board over the tape and put in a few screws. Wont keep it completely dry but should slow it way down even in a hard rain. If you use screws, when you pull the lath/screws/plastic, tyvek tape over the screw holes.

    Here is a link that might be useful: window flashing/housewrap

  • beachgirlok
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I was wrong - the first picture is the top window, not the bottom. Sierraeast, I honestly don't remember the sequence in which the windows were put in. Unfortunately for me, I trusted the builder to know how to put in the windows. If only I had known.....

  • rollie
    15 years ago

    I cant open the pictures, I just get an upload page to tinypic.

    Without pictures up close when you tear it apart, I cannot say right or wrong, for sure, but it looks like its wrong at the head, (rain jacket tucked into rain pants anaology) and no sill pans at the base of the windows.

  • worthy
    15 years ago

    I second the opinions immediately above. (Though I'd prefer to see closer-up photos.) Since you've already gone to the great expense of removing the cladding, you might want to remove the interior trim on at least the upper window to see how the wrap was installed and what kind of insulation/water barrier there is between the window and the framing--if any.

  • beachgirlok
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    What areas are the most critical that you need close-ups of? I'll see if I can get some closer images.

  • worthy
    15 years ago

    Around the windows. (Though, of course, nothing can beat an up close in person view.) Water can enter through the smallest openings.

    I'm wondering if the masonry ties through the flashings were such a good idea.

    What I don't understand is why the builder isn't being held accountable for finding and repairing the leaks. If I had built this home under our mandatory government warranty, I'd be fixing it or Tarion would be doing it and billing me back for it.

  • beachgirlok
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I took two pictures and then my camera battery went dead. Worthy, the windows were leaking before the masonry guys got there. The builder put in the windows and house wrap himself. When the windows leaked the first time, he told me that once the rock was up, the rock would stop the leaks. Another of his stories was that it could be a problem with the windows. The window people came and the builder told me that they had sprayed water on the house, no water got in, and that the problem was fixed. Then when it leaked again, he told me that he was wrong about the windows, that it was the mason's fault (either porous rock or porous mortar joints)and that that wasn't his fault because I had picked a mason that wasn't one of his choosing. At one point he put up some masking tape around the outside of the windows, then sprayed water. When the water came in, he said that proved it wasn't faulty window installation. He put some sealer on the window ledge on the top story on one of the windows (at that point the other windows weren't leaking) and said it was fixed. His last idea was to seal all rock and mortar on the entire house. That's when I was convinced he couldn't help me.

    The first picture is the lower story west end of the window.

    This picture is of the middle section of the lower window.

  • sierraeast
    15 years ago

    The one thing im seeing besides the head flashing at the top of the windows being wrong, is that type of wrap is an air infiltration wrap, not a drainage plane type of underlayment and as stated by gardenchick, should be a two ply application. There are numerous rips and tears just in those two pics alone and the brick ties could be causing seepage as well. Im sorry this has happened, but you could be in for a complete tear off of your stone work and another ply of wrap geared towards drainage, not the webbed type you currently have installed, re-hanging/ re-flashing the windows properly coinciding w/ the new ply and proper weep screeding at the base. Im afraid you will have further problems concerning rot of the sheathing and moisture concerns in the wall cavaties if you leave the existing wrap unattended. You would have more problems than just around the windows. That's how im seeing it, prayerfully im wrong!

  • worthy
    15 years ago

    I don't think the wrap is the problem. It is apparently approved as a water resistive wrap. (Click the third link down.) (Though looking at it, I would not use it, but would have gone for Typar or a clone.)

    However, as sierraeast notes, the installation is not good, despite using plastic headed nails, which many builders don't use. I tape all joints. And when there's damage, I add another layer of wrap. The damage could have been done by the masons, banging scaffolding into the walls, for instance. As noted before, the wrap should be over any flange, not under. I would remove a window to check if the wrap is installed over the framing properly and how the space between the framing and window is filled. I use spray foam, which is a proven water barrier too.

    While you're at it, I would check up near the roof too. It's possible that the water could actually be coming in higher up, then going down inside the wall before it emerges inside.

    While water problems often arise in complicated installations--decks on flat roofs, parapets and complex roofs--yours is a standard straightforward situation.

    This is another reminder to me to be ultra careful on the way the housewrap and windows are installed. Long after all the trades are paid and gone, the house stands as testament to my abilities and as a potential financial liability.

  • beachgirlok
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    I don't know if it is an important fact, but all the leaks have been at the top of first story windows that have a second story window directly above. The three windows without a window above do not leak.

  • worthy
    15 years ago

    Another source of leakage that cannot now be checked would be missing or improperly done flashings and weeps at the tops and bottoms of windows and the bottom of the wall that are the responsibility of the masons.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Water Penetration Resistance See 7 etc.

  • beachgirlok
    Original Author
    15 years ago

    Worthy, this may be a stupid question, but are you saying that this is something to be checked before you pull off the rock? Because if that is the case, I have two more window sections we are going to pull the rock off of.

  • worthy
    15 years ago

    Check for flashings and weeps above and below the windows.

    For housewrap details, see the Building Science publication first Google link below, a pdf file updated in Jan. 2007.

    It's such an expensive waste to pull off sections of finished stone. If your builder friend can pinpoint the problem with the windows that have already been exposed, maybe you can limit the reconstruction costs on the other windows.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Water Management Details

  • allison0704
    15 years ago

    Have you seen this? It's on the Conversation side - to you.

    Here is a link that might be useful: Mighty Anvil's thread