We've agreed on a set amount to complete the job.

Is that a total cost? A management fee? Management fee plus building costs?

I never cease to be amazed by the loosey-goosey arrangements that show up on postings here. But then we haven't seen the contract. Or perhaps it's mostly verbal.

There is a writen contract and there is nothing "loosey-goosey" about it.

The term "fee based contract" wasn't the best choice of words to describe our situation. Rather than pay a cost plus contract we are paying our builder a set amount payable at different stages. We are doing it this way for several reasons. One reason is that i didn't see much point in paying 12% to 15% for everything purchased. For example, it doesn't cost more to install a $12,000 Viking range as opposed to a $1,000 lower end model. Instead we agreed to pay our builder $40,000 regardless of how much we spend to build our home. So if we decide to add higher end items our fee to the builder will not increase. It may not be the normal situation, but it is what we are doing.

So, to my original question. Would there be any benefit to him buying the items, lumber, flooring, lighting etc. under his name or is it better for us to have the purchases made under an account with our name. My builder asked me how we wanted to do this and whether we wanted to get these items under his account or open up a seperate account.

I could see how there could be some benefit if we had our own account if items are returned we wouldn't have to worry about our builder getting the credit instead of us, and I also see a benefit of knowing that all items that we purchase are for our house and there is no chance of us paying for another person's material. (i've heard of this happening)

However, if he gets discounts that we wouldn't get than it would make sence to use his account.

Does this make any sense?

So you have a cost plus fixed fee contract?

When we built we got a fixed price for the whole job. In the contracted price was items that had an allowance number, such as light fixtures, towel bars etc. We went shopping at his preferred suppliers who offered a builder volume discount, selected the items, they billed him. If we went over the allowance we paid the difference. If we were under we reduced the total contract amount. It worked good. It seems its the closest you can get to getting your moneys worth. The builder is giving you a competitive bid and you can comparison shop on the allowance items.

A "Cost of the Work" contract that includes a predetemined separate Contractor's Fee is considered "Fee-Based" (to distinguish it from a Time & Materials contract) and is therefore called a "COST of the Work PLUS a Fee" contract which is commonly abbreviated as "COST PLUS" which is a term that tends to be misunderstood and misused.

In a "Cost Plus" contract, the Contractor's Fee is normally predetermined in the contract as either a Fixed Fee (Stipulated Sum) or as a Percentage of the Costs.

Like dekeoboe, I suspect your contract is a Cost of the Work Plus a Fixed Fee and that the Fee is a Stipulated Sum instead of a Percentage of the Costs.

Most, if not all materials for the project will be provided by subcontractors therefore it is the nature of those contracts that matters most. Do the subcontractors work for you or for the GC/CM?

The only way that you could provide materials (assuming the subs still provide the installation) would be for you or the GC/CM to remove those materials from the subcontractor contracts.

Disadvantages to Owner supplier materials:
1. The first disadvantage is that you must determine if the subcontractors are giving you (or the GC) a fair credit for the materials deleted from their contracts. It is not easy to do this but I suspect the answer is usually no.

2. After getting past the first disadvantage, you must determine if you can get as good a price from a supplier as the original subcontractor could (or as good a price as the GC/CM if for some reason he is buying it). This is not easy to do but I suspect the answer is no.

3. When an owner supplies a material the only material warranty is from the manufacturer and you would have to chase that company if the material was unacceptable or failed and pay for removal and reinstallation.

Advantages to Owner supplied materials:
1. You might be able to get a rebate from using your credit card but that doesn't go very far toward offsetting the disadvantages.

2. There is one certain way that buying materials yourself can save you money and my clients are using it more and more often. Almost any material can be bought cheaper over the internet (Ebay, Craigslist, manufacturer direct, internet-only suppliers, Home Depot, Lowes, etc.). Unfortunately, it is rare that high-end materials are offered. The disadvantage with this method is that you don't know much about the quality or the condition of the materials but in my experience, they are usually second rate and what you must be careful to avoid is materials that are third rate. Most of the materials are now made in China and look exactly like the materials made by well-known manufacturers and sold by traditional trade-only supply houses. Oddly, Home Depot is often cheaper than off brand internet suppliers apparently since they buy from the same knock-off sources at larger volumes.

The internet has forever disrupted the traditional trade-only construction material supply line and substituted a digital consumer model but with it has gone all the quality control protections provided by professional specifications, reputable manufacturers, and contractor responsibility. The home construction world, like the rest of the world, is increasingly driven by digital images and marketing hype; the blind leading the blind.

Building houses is not easy but building them as cheap as possible is a lot harder. To save money on materials you need to decide if you are willing to rely on luck and live with the consequences. Most builders and professional designers are not of this mind frame so it's up to you to make the decision.

A local contractor is putting some knock-off Chinese light fixtures (ordered online from Home Depot by the Owner) in a multi-family project today and I'm going over to inspect them soon. I'll let you know if they are acceptable. Four of the fixtures could not be used because the Owner either ordered too many or the wrong size even though he had an accurate fixture schedule. You can't just give the professionally prepared fixture schedule to a website.

"The internet has forever disrupted the traditional trade-only construction material supply line and substituted a digital consumer model but with it has gone all the quality control protections provided by professional specifications, reputable manufacturers, and contractor responsibility. The home construction world, like the rest of the world, is increasingly driven by digital images and marketing hype; the blind leading the blind."

Although I do somewhat tend to agree as to where we are, I don't know if I'm on the same page on how we got there. I'm too young to know when it was good, but I do beleive that the 70s through the 90s were not on a digital consumer model, they were still on a trade only construction model. I would rate the quality of the materials rather low from that era at least where I live. I'm sure there were good contractors doing the right thing, but the vast majority were doing the minimum per code.

I think you can find that the imported material both helped and hurt the quality of our homes.

the problem in the marketplace is really the bottom line.

Its hard to tell the difference between a quality contractor and an inferior one. Its hard to tell if the contractor is using "high quality" materials vs someone who is using real crap until you see the end result. In this cost conscious society, I can buy the same kitchen package with all the same buzzwords for 15K or 50K, granite, maple, tile "custom" etc

I can tell the difference, but most can't

but I worry about purchases for my job being inter-mingled with another, if the builder will pass on credits/discounts/returns, etc... I am really unsure and looking for some feedback.

Despite a written contract, the OP clearly has a trust issue with the builder. Our reputation is evidently on par with politicians and investment bankers.

On the other side of the equation, as a builder, I really don't like when clients want to select their own trades or supply their own materials. If they think they can do both of these things, they should go all the way and build the house themselves. With the one exception of using nationally known security systems, I have found that there are inevitable problems. The trades they select are ones I wouldn't have chosen and they go their merry own way on site. And the materials the owner chooses usually cause me problems and money.

For instance:
it doesn't cost more to install a $12,000 Viking range as opposed to a $1,000 lower end model. Instead we agreed to pay our builder $40,000 regardless of how much we spend to build our home.

The installation may be no trickier. But if I have responsibility for making sure it doesn't walk off or get scratched, I expect to be paid for taking that risk.

Cheap w.c. fixtures from you-know-where mimick the look of the genuine product. But when they fall apart on installation, the plumber isn't coming back for free to reinstall them.

Another example: I took delivery of crates of stone tiles for a project. Beautiful product. But the "tiles" were not uniform. They differed as much as 3/8" in face dimension and up to 300% in thickness. The tilesetter had to do a lot of adjustment to get them looking perfect.

On stock building materials--lumber, doors, insulation etc.--I know I can get a better price than the customer simply because I am a repeat buyer and am not going to be a pain in the whatever to the supplier. Furthermore, I can sometimes get a much better price by piggybacking on the subtrade's buying power.

You as an 'owner' can NEVER get any materials 'cheaper' than a contractor.

PERIOD.

So let him buy and supply your project.

Even if you have to pay your contractor a 'markup', it will still be cheaper than if yougo shopping and buy the materials yourself....

What do you guys think of the homeowner wanting to buy a few unique artist made things? After looking for years I have found "the" light fixture that I want. It's handmade and will come from the west coast. I also have found an artist in Maine who has a handpainted art tile that I want to use as an accent in my backsplash. Then there's a glass artist a couple of hours from where we are building whom I want to build a backlit backsplash for the wet bar. My contractor has no relation with these folks and cannot possibly get better pricing or obtain anything remotely similar. Would it be ill-advised for me to purchase these things outright? (We haven't written our contract yet.)

On the other hand there are some normal "contractor-type" items that I want but know I can't get them all from the same supplier. For example one of the toilets I want is made by Coroma and there isn't a dealer around here, but there is one a few hours away near my inlaws. For our second toilet I want a Toto and the third toilet, I don't care what brand it is. I did not expect to purchase these items myself, but I don't see how the subcontractor would get them from two or three different suppliers if they aren't suppliers he normally deals with. Does this mean I'm not going to get the toilet models I want? I have a similar situation with bathroom, fireplace and kitchen tile. Do I have to settle for what company the subcontractor uses? I thought the purpose of a custom house is to get exactly what you want.

And as much as it pains me to admit, I do understand the additional liability the contractor/builder takes on when insuring the security of that higher priced range. Sometimes it doesn't make sense though, like why should the builder get more money just because I choose a higher grade carpet for the bedroom or a more expensive species of wood for the floors?

Well,....everyone has their needs and wants!! All of these things you mention should be discussed with your builder. I don't think it's a big deal or I think it is fairly common for people to choose "aristic" type items for their home; light fixtures, backsplash,etc. You will just have to discuss these things with your builder in order to coordinate the installations of these items, who will be installing them, etc. He may or may not be agreeable to all of them but he must KNOW about them!

There is no reason a builder can't take a trip over to a neighboring town to pick up a fixture from a different supplier. That's what his 15% (or 20%) is for. Profit is earned, and that's earning it. The same goes for the specialty tile and other fixtures. If you know where to get them, he can buy them and arrange for transport and install for his 15% just as well as he can for stuff from his usual supplier. The trouble comes when you want to incorporate specialty items, but don't want to pay his % for the extra hassle that using unusual items causes him. If you have a really long list of specialty items that aren't available at his wholesale houses , or have subs that you want to use for certain projects, or want to use sources for major building materials for your home, your best bet is to just go ahead and self GC. If it's the normal 7-8 special items, then writing it into the contract from the beginning isn't a big deal.

Do you want a Construction Manager or a General Contractor?

A General Contractor is financially responsible for paying all subs and suppliers, negotiating contracts and prices, paying for insurance and warrantying all the above.

A Construction Manager only oversees the job and is not responsible for any insurance or warranties and walks away at the end of the job from any future problems.

You pay for the difference and it always works out to be based on the cost of the whole project. Higher end finishes and fixtures cost more in insurance, installation and warranties. Most GC's may let the percentage slide on a couple of self purchased items but on the whole they can not afford to do this and still provide the call back service that goes into warrantying these items.

jmagill - so when I pick up the phone and call Wolf warranty support, that costs the GC money?

I'm sorry but I couldn't let that item slide. If something goes wrong with a $10k appliance, you call the manufacturer. You can call the GC and he'll look up the phone number for you. My GC is great and I can call him on anything but he can't fix a Wolf or Viking range.

And you don't think that $400 I paid for the Wolf and Subzero install covered the costs?

Defending the percent cost plus model really falls apart here. You can do it all you want but on appliances it really falls apart. I'm not saying it isn't appropriate in other matters just not on appliances.

Now there are theft issues and financing issues but they don't add up to 15%.

I work for a custom builder.

He calls Wolf, he meets the service guy at the home, he makes sure the repairs are completed. He fights with the company if they are not. All that is time and therefore money. That is what you are paying for.

He also pays when the item gets scratched or damaged during installation.

If you are willing to take on the hassle and associated costs of taking care of the warranty and the insurance etc. than you want a CM not a GC.

The builder pays his insurance on the whole value of the home, not on just his profit.

"You as an 'owner' can NEVER get any materials 'cheaper' than a contractor."

That was the case but it is no longer true.

On the project I mentioned earlier, the Owner was able to buy identical appearing "knock-off" light fixtures online from Home Depot at a much lower price than the subcontractor's discounted price from a wholesale supplier. There was no GC mark-up, the materials were delivered to the site and he got airline miles on his credit card.

The danger that must be dealt with now is that the cheaper online products might be of unacceptable quality but this particular Owner was half my age and had no fear of that possibility.

Thanks to Walmart, Home Depot and the internet, there's a new wave of owners who think of building materials as commodities to be searched for online and bought from the cheapest source. I believe it will eventually be possible to order everything for a house online and have it delivered to the site in containers according to a revisable schedule. You will be able to choose "The Beaumont", select the fixtures and finishes, enter your credit card number and push the button. Finding cheap labor will be easy because former designers and material suppliers will be standing on street corners warming themselves in front of fires in oil drums will signs on their backs saying "will work for food".

Of course, web site designers and building officials will survive and thrive.

I agree with you MACV. It is possible to get the same prices as the builder. So much more in this economy when everyone is struggling.

The missing component will be the customer service and follow-up a reputable GC will provide.

There will always be the customer that does everything they can to save a dollar (I am actually one of those) and there will also be the customer that needs the full service GC .

Those two customers are very different as are the builders who do those jobs. There is a market for both. The important thing is to have the contractor and the home owner know up front what kind of job they are doing.

As evidence of how things have changed, a client of mine only has to mention my name to a lighting fixture or window supplier to get my professional discount. Then they can view the products online and order over the phone with a credit card. I tell them it's OK as long as my name isn't on the invoice. On a recent project my client saved more using my discount than the amount of my fee.

The difference between retail and wholesale is now only a pretense. Most suppliers will give you a discount if you insist. But if you mention Home Depot they will probably ask for a deposit in order to avoid wasting their time. At the moment the US economy is a game of musical chairs. Stocks & bonds have been returned to their rightful owners (the wealthy) and manufacturers who aren't competitive with the knock-offs or don't cater to the needs of consumers will not survive along with the people who sell those products.

I plan to retire as soon as my youngest graduates so I'm counting the days to commencement.

It is possible to get the same prices as the builder. So much more in this economy when everyone is struggling.

Maybe on select items if the homeowner wants to hit every website sale and discount around. As a custom builder I used to do that with plumbing supplies. Until I realized that it was more efficient to have the plumbing contractor provide it all and be responsible for having it on site, installed and working properly. Time is money!

As for framing lumber and trim, forget it. The commercial yard I deal with has no retail customers. Ditto the trim supplier, who works strictly from his warehouse. Ditto the drywall supplier.

Of course, I am in a booming housing market.

Your local market is definitely a factor.

Here the best trim supplier, Anderson & McQuaid, charges the same price to anyone and their price list is online.

Of course if you take the contractor's markup away on all materials he will just have to find another way to bill you for his services. Amateur homeowners cant stand to pay a percent markup (some think it feels like a lifestyle tax) so they imagine they are saving the markup by buying materials themselves when in reality the GC simply finds another way of charging the same fee.

There are bargains today but there's no free lunch.

Here is a link that might be useful: Anderson & McQuaid

Wow - reading this thread I'm really glad I'm doing all the GC work myself.

With the recession and the hard hit construction sector, I found it extremely easy so far to find subs that show up on time and do excellent work for a good price. I'm actually getting calls from subs wanting work. These are wonderful times for an owner-builder (and if I were not an owner builder, I'd show the hired GC who's the boss because he who pays = boss).

Builders are getting squeezed just like everyone else in this market. I wouldn't have built if I didn't feel like I had some power to save some money (ie do things myself and buy myself when it warranted.).

The internet has changed things. We got some great reclaimed wood mantles from the internet at a great price. My builder decided to use that site for future houses as it was better than his local supplier. My plumber (who is a bit cheap) was not a Grohe distributor so Homeclick it was (my builder ordered these just for accounting but I sent hime the link). The plumber had the best prices for the things he regularly gets - unbeatable by HD or the internet.

The fact is that for the current economy, their are far too many smart, hard working people trying to make a decent living as a home builder. Many will fade away and do something else with their lives. Home building will become a bit "commoditized" as will the building supplies. Sometimes this is a bad thing and sometimes it is not. There is no doubt in my mind, that some of this skill was overvalued in good times. It may become undervalued but either way, it is changing.

I don't know how this thread got this way...

Back to a reply to my prior post. Yes my GC would meet the Wolf repair people and find someone new if they couldn't do the job. And yes, they would push the company if that was necessary. But they would have done it if it was GE. And Wolf has far better customer service than GE so it is actually easier with the higher end stuff. So again, tell me how this service is worth $1500 for a Wolf range but only $100 for a GE range. Both have similar rates of problems (admittedly probably a bit higher with Wolf). And around here, if something got scratched on install, the installer would pay. The $400 install fee probably covers some of this as it would probably have been $100 for GE.

Again, there might be more trouble with a more expensive appliance but not enough to justify it on a percent basis. A toilet is another consideration. The plumber (at least mine) did not charge more to install a $1000 toilet versus a $50 toilet. They fixed problems with either as part of a warranty.

I just don't see any downside to fixed fee. We paid our builder $80k and it was nice to know that it didn't matter if we went with Wolf or GE. We also didn't have to haggle over the custom vanities I got off the internet. Or the CV and LV wiring I did myself...

We are now going as the GC and have hired a CM. We are purchasing the supplies from a lumberyard (like the 2x4s, doors, etc...) and have a contractors account set up in their credit section. We therefor get the contractors price. The plumbing supply store is a little mom and pop place that gives us 25% off because we're buying the entire house worth of fixtures from there. The customer service there is amazing and worth the small amount I can save on a few fixtures online, the 25% off beats the price I've found online for several of them. I'll be supplying all lighting fixutres from a variety of places, including using lights I have bought for this house, I'll replace them with standard lights before selling. I'm very attached to them.

The drywall contractor provides his own drywall, he can get it cheaper than I can. The concrete comes with the foundation contractor, but my dh has specified specific details and it is contingent on it passing a slump test on arrival etc... I don't even know what that all means, but he's a civil engineer that does a lot of this in the commercial sector so I trust him.

I fully expect to be responsible for all warranties (and am contractually obligated to, we have that in our contract) and know that I can't call the CM in to take care of that. I'm willing to deal with that.

I didn't start out wanting to do the GC route, but after wasting so much time and money dealing with our builder we chose, and then re-interviewing builers we decided that this was the right route for us.

David Cary

So why do you draw the line on appliances. Why not an upgrade in windows, carpet, roofing, insulation, concrete, excavation, etc.? Why is an upgrade on one material different then the other?

Appliances are so simple to see the argument and so variable in cost. A factor of ten is unlikely in roofing.

worthy......housing is booming up there in Canada??

In the Greater Toronto area, it's ahot seller's market.

Last month, sales were up 77% vs. Feb. 2009 and average home prices jumped 19% to C$431,509. (The C$ is a cent or two off parity with the greenback.)

In part, the burst of activity is a reaction to the dead market of 2009 as everyone waited for the US economic sled ride to the bottom to end.

In any case, the Canadian housing market has stood out over recent years as a sea of tranquility vs. the housing markets in other Western countries. See Mish's table: here.

Hard to believe, I know, but politicians here did not see housing as a "right" to which everyone was entitled, good credit or bad, nor as a sea on which to float the whole economy. No institution was too big to fail. Yet none did.

Canada's banking industry has been independently rated as the soundest in the world.

We just sold and bought. In the areas we were looking at, the typical listing brought multiple offers and sold over list. And not because agents were trying to encourage bidding. I bought a home I had earlier rejected after a ten minute inspection. There was already an offer in sign-back when I made my offer at the signback price that had somehow slipped out from the listing agent. When I got our one inspection before closing this weekend, I was surprised to see a few more rooms than I had bothered to look at when I first walked through. Even missed the master bath ensuite and walk-in closet/dressing area. (As usual, mrs. worthy hasn't bothered to look at where we're moving.)

The statement made that a home owner can never get products cheaper than the builder is totally untrue. We have built three custom homes throughout our marriage. The first two we literally constructed ourselves. The third one we hired a builder. What a nigthtmare. We ended up purchasing most of our own goods because of the markup they wanted to charge us. For example, we were sent to a kitchen and bath place where the same exact toilet that we purchased at Lowe's was marked up 4 times at the place they wanted to send us. Ditto with the same exact Kwikset door handles and closet doors. These are only a couple of examples.

We are currently building a log home, our last, and will be doing the work ourselves. Guess what. Lowe's is giving us contractor prices on materials, as are the lumber yards. For what we don't want to handle, we have found some excellent local people to do the work. We'll purchase the materials.

I'm sure there are some good builders out there, and I do not wish to insult those that build homes as a profession, but my experience, as well as most of our friend's experiences, has not been good. However, not everyone has the skills to build their own home. We do. And the key is to find good tradespeople to help with some of the heavy work. If you can do that, and can manage people, you can get a home built with very few hassles and no rip offs.

"Last month, sales were up 77% vs. Feb. 2009 and average home prices jumped 19% to C$431,509. (The C$ is a cent or two off parity with the greenback.)

In any case, the Canadian housing market has stood out over recent years as a sea of tranquility vs. the housing markets in other Western countries."

The average Toronto family income is only $88k. If the average home price is at $431k, how can the average Toronto family afford a home there? Sounds like loose lending or magic to me.

Here is a link that might be useful: Toronto statistics

I think 'sandy' is probably the "exception" and not the "norm"! Who wouldn't want to be able to build themselves and be so confident and have the skill to do it w/o a gc or builder??? I am guessing most of us fall "in between" and have to hire most of this expensive, sometimes 'once-in-a-lifetime' project!! I am grateful for our builder and can't even imagine what we would have done w/o his services!!

The average Toronto family income is only $88k. If the average home price is at $431k, how can the average Toronto family afford a home there? Sounds like loose lending or magic to me.

The key is in the link you cited: average two parent family income of
$105,201. Combine that with the all-time low interest rates. As well, Canadian downpayments are higher than in the US. Mortgage interest is not tax deductible, so there's a built-in incentive to come up with a bigger downpayment. In other words, less to finance. Of course, as interest rates rise, home prices will be affected. Tougher rules for high-ratio mortgages, too, will put a brake on prices.

I am in the process of building my own house and I can tell you that the lumber yards, plumbing and material suppliers are hurting for business. You will find many companies that will give you contractor prices equal to or better than what other builders are paying. You need to get multiple bids and always negotiate. It takes time and effort but it can be done. I am a little tired of the process at this point after doing it for everything. Builders will use the suppliers that provide average prices, are easy to work with and dependable so things go smoothly. The siding company I used pushed my project back 2 weeks because of delays at their finishing facility. I used the lowest bidder. They also missed a few items when the order was shipped and I had to wait for additional materials.

You also have to be careful, one of the suppliers that I purchased my windows and doors (100 year old lumber company) went out of business last week.

"Cheap w.c. fixtures from you-know-where mimick the look of the genuine product. But when they fall apart on installation, the plumber isn't coming back for free to reinstall them."

And yet, I have had plumbers do exactly that. I have a chip on the base of my toilet caused by a clumsy local, highly regarded plumbing firm which put it in years ago. Did they replace it when I asked them to ? NO. They did replace the pedestal on the sink that they also chipped a few years later, but I made such a stink they had no choice. In both cases the items they chipped were bought through them, not on line or at a big box store, with their customary mark up.

As for contractors, it's hit or miss. I'm honest, pay on time and expect good work and honesty in return. I let the last one go, someone I had worked with a number of times before, because he got greedy - or desperate - and charged me for hours and days I know for a fact he was not here. So, I am going to GC the addition on my house myself.

"I believe it will eventually be possible to order everything for a house online and have it delivered to the site in containers according to a revisable schedule. You will be able to choose "The Beaumont", select the fixtures and finishes, enter your credit card number and push the button." macv -

You used to be able to order a whole house through the Sears catalog (link below) 'Old has become new' like they say! :)

I've been reading this forum for quite a while - finally joined - macv - I really appreciate your knowledge. Hubby & I are planning to build a 'smallish' house here in the woods of a remote town in Alaska. We have very different construction considerations here. We get yards of snow...one year was over 700" on the Pass just up the road about 14 miles.

We have to consider earthquakes (Old Valdez was destroyed in the '64 Good Friday earthquake), bears (we live on a migratory path so have to make sure the deck isn't accessible to them. We are very careful not to leave attractants out which is the main reason people have bear problems. Lots of roof angles...no go. Hubby is designing a solar collection on the south side. From the south, we face absolutely breath taking Alpine mountains so we want to take advantage of that view.

Thanks, everyone, for all this collective knowledge! :)

Here is a link that might be useful: Sears Homes through catalog

Again, just a note about the owner never being able to find cheaper materials (with the insinuated 'at the same quality level'). Honestly just a touch of ebay, craigslist or even google savvy can find you deals on name brand, brand new stuff. If you are flexible about what you want you can easily make off with good deals. There was someone on here posting about their appliance finds (on the "Where did you get your best deals?" thread) that really were amazing. It's not for everyone, and yes it takes time and effort, but you can get good deals. Granted I wouldn't try and do this with shingles or drywall, but functioning items that I actually have experience with or will install myself (ie all light fixtures)? Of course I'm not going to go through the GC.

Just to follow up on our initial posting and that the owner can't get better deals than contractor...
My builder got me a quote on Jeldwin (SDL aluminum clad builder series) windows which was much higher than a quote I got for similar windows from Integrity by Marvin. I'm still researching the Integriy brand, but sounds good so far.

My experience has been that the "nuts and bolts" materials of a house are best purchased by GC's. Lumber, Doors, Windows, etc.

Tile is a limbo area, as Worthy pointed out, you have to be careful about the quality of the material.

Appliances, Fixtures and some types of flooring can be found through e-tailers for better prices than local retailers with GC discounts.

As for Labor, always use the people your GC wants to use... otherwise don't ask them to stand behind the work. If you provide the tile to his/her tile setter, the tile setter should vent any issues with the material before they start, not do a crummy job and blame the material afterwards.

aupatrick, until your builder gives you a quote for Integrity windows you don't know if you've saved any money. The Jeld-Wen aluminum clad wood windows are not in any way similar to Integrity fiberglass windows.

I got my quote from Integrity Wood/Ultrex series... it is $2,500 less than Jeldwen aluminum clad builder series.

"Macy" I would say they are similar.. they are both windows :-) The main differences between the two are the exterior finishes(fiberglass vs. roll form aluminum cladding). Both have interior wood finish. I like them both but not sure which is the better product. I am not sure if Integrity would be suitable for custom home (which would be highend in my area).

I would not use roll-form aluminum on any window on any house.

If you could get a low price on Marvin Integrity windows your builder should be able to get an even lower price.

You seem to be going out of your way to compare apples to oranges.

I got a quote on some Integrity windows and they quoted them with "NO SPACER BAR". Any know if they are needed?

"For example, it doesn't cost more to install a $12,000 Viking range as opposed to a $1,000 lower end model."

Yes it does cost more to install a $12,000 stove.

The gas lines and electric lines are routinely larger for the 'pro style' stoves.

A low end model will run on a 'standard' capacity circuit and likely not need more than a 3/4 inch gas line.

If you have ANy problems with the installed equipment do not expect support from the builder/installer.

ANY problems WILL be caused by the equipment.

'Time and Materials' sounds good until you see how much time can get wasted running up the bill.

'Fixed Cost' can be made to work, but expect EVERY change to be more $$.

Integrity is a very nice window. Not as nice as the Marvin Ultimate but still very nice. Best in its class I understand.

A "spacer bar" (sometimes called a "shadow bar") simply fills in the space between the glass panes aligned with the inner and outer applied muntins so you can't see through the gap when looking at an angle to the face of the glass. It's a cosmetic feature just as the muntins are.

Integrity is made in two versions: fiberglass clad wood (wood-ultrex) and all fiberglass (all-ultrex). It's important to be clear which one is being discussed.

Which one is better macv? Just curious as we may be using these windows . . .

And how do they compare quality wise with the Anderson 400 Woodwright (think I have the name right - not the Tilt)

Macv: I'm talking about the Integrity Wood-Ultrex. Still undecided. Waiting on my revised Jeldwen estimate.

The Woodwright is a good window.

Anything made with PVC is going to have limited color options.

aupatrick- I'm curious if your window quotes (Marvin Integrity & the Jeld-Wen Builder Clad) came in at the budget you listed on the cost allocation thread, or was it higher or lower. As I recall, your house plan is similar to mine (at least the front is) with lots of windows, multiple sets of french doors, & some archtop windows. I would love to see the finished plans that you are going with and eventually the finished product!