I don't like the openness of the first floor. If the breakfast room, kitchen, great room, and hearth room are all going to be wide open to each other, then what's the point of having a great room AND a hearth room. Also, with a lot of young children you are going to end up with food all over your downstairs.

I also don't like the fact that you have to cut across the dining room diagonally to get to the rear of the house from the foyer. It would be fine in a smaller home, but yours is pretty big.

I don't have a problem with the laundry being in the bonus room. I think it's rather practical with young children. I might spend a little extra on built-ins becasue it's exposed, but I think it will work well. But I also like the w/d in the master as well. When the kids are older they can do more of their own laundry and you won't need to be up there - you can use the w/d in the master.

I think you are a little light on bedrooms for a family your size. If you end up with three kids of one gender and a fourth of another you will not have a guest bedroom unless you put three kids in one room. Not a big deal, but given the overall scale of the house it seems unfortunate. I guess since you have a secondary laundry in your master you could use the bonus room as a guest room. Or maybe all the grandparents are local?

Thank you, solie. I see what you mean about having the great room and hearth room open to the kitchen. We'll have to think about that. I totally agree on the cutting through the dining room issue. I have that in my notes to discuss with the designer. As for the number of bedrooms, we are planning to have another bedroom/bath in our basement.

Thanks again for your comments. I'd love to hear from others, too!

This is surprising! I always put myself into how-it-is-on-crutches mode when looking at house plans. I can usually spot awkward -or impossible- layouts. Other than being two floors [steps are a no-no for the crutch-bound], I found few ooops. Really only one -- check the width of the bathroom doors on the second floor -- they all look a bit narrow. Some of the closets are a bit strange with tight corners, but understandable from the viewpoint of using oddly shaped spaces.

As others have said, I find the great-room/ dining/ hearthroom combo much too large and open. Where is the TV/media center going? If it's blaring in the great room, no one is going to be able to relax in the hearth room. That may or may not bother you.

And I do wonder where the smoke is going to go if someone burns the bacon. I can tell you from my DH's experience, that even a commercial stove fan/vent will not expel all the smoke -- not even half, so consider what you will have to clean if that sort of ooops happens. It's a personal prejudice: I prefer a kitchen that can be closed from visitor's eyes; in fact, I prefer not to see the pots and pans while I'm at the dining table.

Otherwise, congratulations on having one of the most livable house plans I've seen.

Oh, so envious of the sport court! This will be a wonderful house.

I don't have a great solution for you, but I wouldn't want my laundry open to any room...and you definitely want more room than the storage closet provides. The solution I see quickest (meaning more time put in might come up with a better answer) is to wall it off where it is and create a study/reading nook in that area across from it.

Those are very narrow dormers...Any chance of making them wider for more use from the inside?

I think the too open feel of the main floor could be solved by a wide arched or cased doorway on the bfast room side of the great room. Just something to visually stop the eye from looking through the whole house.

The one thing I really don't like: the dining room. It's too open to the entry, entry traffic will walk diagonally across it or scoot around your table to get to the main living parts of the house, and it's too far from the kitchen. I like to use my dining room, and hate the idea of square footage sitting unused because it's inconvenient, but that would sure be my fear in this case.

What is at the left end of the kitchen? Ovens? If so, I would want a good span of counter with the ovens on one end, rather than splitting the workspace.

Best wishes!

Thank you, thank you for these comments! This is so very helpful. I am making notes to use when I talk to our builder again.

I would separate the Great Room from kitchen/hearth room for reasons mentioned above. Leave Great Room open towards front of house/wall between there and breakfast room.

Enclose DR to channel guest into the great room area by creating arched or columned openings into DR. (Don't know what style the outside of home is).

What is the "her room" off the kitchen? I might want one! lol

I would make a large laundry room upstairs (close off from bonus room) since it probably won't stay picked up. Can create storage along walls in the laundry room. Area between bedrooms, running along side Laundry room to bonus room could be study area for kids with a couple of desks.

Thanks for the good suggestions, allison0704. I agree that we should separate the GR from the kitchen and hearth room. And my husband just reminded me that the original plans had another set of stairs that would have been a sort of barrier there. We decided we didn't want/need those stairs and thus we created the big open space when they were taken out. I'm also leaning toward walling off the laundry room.

The "her area" is what I refer to as the "command center." I think our builder was trying not to offend my husband by calling it that. :) It will have counter space for a desk area, lots of drawers and cabinets for the stuff that piles up on our island and the area next to the phone in our current kitchen, and it may also be overflow for storing pantry/kitchen items. Also, I homeschool my kids so I thought that would be a great spot for them to sometimes do their work and not have it spread out all over the kitchen table.

Thanks again for the comments. I am excited to use some of these ideas to make our plans better.

I thought it might be like a craft room or something. Great idea.

I really like your plan. It reminds me a lot of the plans from Garrell and Associates that I love.

I agree with others that the DR is too far from the kitchen. You could rearrange the Her Area with the Powder Room...then PR would be closer to the mudroom and you could do a butler's pantry leading into the DR.

I would enclose the laundry room, then you would have a space for a loft/study area or an additional bathroom and the bonus room could then be a future bedroom if need be.

I personally love the openness of the main floor plan, but then again it fits our family lifestyle and isn't for everyone. My boys would love the sports area, too.

Good luck! I know it will be stunning!

We homeschool, too. Will you 'do school' in a certain room? Do you have enough storage for books, records, games, puzzles, and a place to do art projects and science experiments, and store the supplies? Believe me, the older they get, the more 'stuff' there is... Books can make a dent in my budget faster than almost anything else I know! :-) I guess you mentioned a basement, so maybe that solves it all.

Do you have study/work areas or places you might be able to build them in? Different kids at different ages will have different needs for isolation or togetherness while doing their work.

I just noticed the ages of your kids and the possibility of another. I don't know how you do things, but with all this room, I would want room for the baby in or close to the master suite.

eventhecatisaboy - You've got a good eye! Our plan is adapted from a Garrell & Assoc. one. Thanks for your ideas--this is so nice to get all these different perspectives on our plans. Yes, my oldest son and my husband can't wait for the sport court. Living in the frozen midwest, I think it will be a great thing for our family.

rhome410- I haven't figured out for sure where school will mainly happen in the new house. Right now we do have an upstairs bedroom that is our "school room" but I kind of think I would rather do school on the main level--especially while they are young and I am so involved. So maybe we will use the "her area" mainly but also have a reading nook and possibly a desk area in the bonus space. My husband is starting to come around to the idea of not having a 2-story great room so in that case, we'd have that space to work with on the 2nd floor as well. As for books/games/etc storage, I am hoping to have lots of built in cabinetry in the "her area" (I need to rename that space soon!) and built-in bookshelves in the study and yes, more storage areas in the basement. This is only our first year homeschooling and I can't believe how much stuff we've accumulated. As for the possibility of another little one, I did wonder about where the baby's room would be. They usually live in our bedroom for awhile but then I was thinking that if we use the space over the great room, we'd probably move one of the bedrooms there and then it would be just a few steps up from the master.

Thanks again everybody--our plans will be much improved because of your help.

Happy Valentine's Day!

I'd connect the Master walk in closet to the master. I wouldn't want to have to walk through the bathroom to get something out of the closet. Plus, you have an excellent spot there to put a door. Maybe something sliding so it doesn't intrude into the MB?

Thanks, gamebird! I thought about that awhile back and never made a note about it. I'm glad you reminded me of that issue.

Is it just me, or could you spend forever trying to get everything "right" on the house plans? And even if you did spend forever on it, I'm sure there will still be unforseen issues once you live in the house. This part of the process is pretty fun, though, but from what I'm hearing on this board, the headaches are on their way!

The more "forever" you spend before the build, the fewer headaches during it.

A considerable amount of stress can be prevented by making as many precise selections as possible, before ever signing the contract. I mean, not only make informed decisions about insulation, window types, all the different types of flooring, what lights [and light switches] you want and where, but even decide about door hardware and faucet finish and the color/type/style/size of the bath tiles.

It's okay to fall in love with something special, but it's unbelievably stressful to learn at the last minute [during the build] that your lovee will consume a big bite of your budget! A sad amount of the stress one sees posted here was avoidable. One should not be sweating about the tile color while the tile installer is waiting. Nor should one be changing the placement of a window, or a closet, or the bonus room finish during the build -- think first so that you won't pay with stress later.

Many floorplan decisions can be clarified with the making of a 3-D to-scale model. Use sponge cutouts to represent the family and the furniture, and move them around as they would for a regular day, for holidays, for visitors. That's when you may see that the hall closet is missing or the pantry has more corners than shelves, or even that you can't fit your dining table into the new dining room. It's like playing dolls, but pay attention and the result should be seeing and solving possible problems *before* the build begins.

Remember that most decisions should be made before the build, and do your best to with them. Then there are the decisions to be made during the build -- and those should be few and far between. Problems will usually fall into two categories, structural (moving a window) and non-structural (what color paint). Structurals should be solidly known before the contract is signed, including brick color, stonework, fireplace size and where the light switches go. Non-structural decisions *can* be winged -decided during the build- but that is high-stress for you and often a budget-banger. However, non-structural decisions CAN be changed after the build -sure it's going to cost you- so don't sweat the paint color.

meldy nva-- Thanks for that great advice. I didn't realize we should have a lot of those decisions made that far ahead. My builder made it sound like we would decide things with each step along the way. I can see how it would be easier to know a lot of that ahead of time and not have to decide under pressure and with time constraints.

There are changes and considerations along the way, and some finish decisions can be made while things start, but meldy nva is right, the more decided ahead, the better, with fewer surprises and possible cost increases. One of our construction loan applications required what seemed to be a ridiculous amount of detail, down to make and model of faucets and things...with prices. It irritated and frustrated us to have to make those decisions so much before breaking ground. But, it turned out to be one of the most helpful things we did in the build process. Every little thing adds up, so if you remember to figure it in at the outset, you can stick nearer your budget and be more realistic. And when it's actually time to make firm decisions, it's nice to have a place to start that isn't at the beginning, because there are SO many options for EVERYthing.

There have been a lot of people on different forums here in a panic, surprised by a call from their GC asking for a decision on this or that NOW. Something they thought wasn't an issue til much further down the line. Things need to be ordered, and things need to be sized and planned for far in advance of their installation.

We spent a lot of time tweaking our plans, then made a couple of changes during the framing process...which wasn't a big deal, since we were the framers. Meanwhile I spent hours and weeks getting the kitchen 'just right.' It is not a fast process, and I can assure you that the outcome will be better for the time put in at the design and planning stages. You don't want to go through it all and spend all the money to have major regrets about something you missed...If you can help it! (there is always something, but, hopefully, they're little things)

It can take a lot of time to learn about the choices available, and then make the choice. Then order, wait for delivery, sometimes wait for the installation. Right there is one reason for knowing what you want before the build begins -- if you want an item x in mocha, it's better to know in advance that it might take 3 months before it can be delivered. Unfortunately, even in the best of plans, there can be totally unforeseen delays from late delivery, unexpected weather, unavailable work crews, or even theft [which can take time to replace the stolen material]. But with pre-planning, at least the crew won't be sitting around waiting for you say which faucet you want. You will have last minute decisions in approving the color/size/cut of stone or brick should you be using those items, for the reason that samples are always approximations and you won't know what you get until you get it. However, stone/brick is just about the only category that has a last-minute decision built into it.

The next reason for getting specific in advance is that it can be difficult at best and overwhelming at worst to make a lot of important decisions in a very short period of time. Unless one is already a professional designer /builder /carpenter /tiler /plumber /electrician / decorator /et cetera, one is going to have make choices and decisions about things we just have never even thought about! It's an exhausting process, and that's a major reason for stress for the builder.

Another reason for making as many decisions as possible in advance is actually the simplest: budget. And there is no way to have a budget without knowing what numbers are in it, and what those numbers represent. Unless you have an endless supply of money, there will be a limit as to how much can be spent. A pre-computed budget lets you know that if you spent $30,000 on kitchen counters then you won't have $20,000 for lighting. It gives you a chance to determine which is most important to you -- waiting to the last minute decision might find the counters installed but leave only $1000 for lights when in real life you don't cook much and it is the lighting that's important. Keep in mind that every time the owner changes his/her mind *during* the build, it is money wasted. Cosmetic changes [such as finding the "blue" paint is really brown when on the wall] can usually be fixed at once and during the build. However, changing the placement of a window or door is in the same category as changing a ceiling height or where the staircase is located -- the structural integrity of the whole house can be affected, and changes from blueprint shouldn't be done without approval of a structural engineer (ahem: $ and time), and the change may require re-inspection to be sure codes are still being met (ahem: lost time -- and $ while the crews wait).

And another page of the budget is simply that there is difference between what the average GC thinks you'll be satisfied with and what you actually are satisfied with, in terms of quality, uniqueness, and customizing. Sometimes the difference is even more -- I've seen kitchens put together from the local discount-mass produced store and I've seen kitchens where every detail from crown molding to toe-step was handmade by a craftsman. Not going to say that one is better than the other, but IMO the wallet-holder should know -in advance- that there really can be tens of thousands of dollars difference in the final bill. The same is true of almost every detail on a home: you can get mass-produced in all levels of quality as well as getting custom-made or handcrafted. But if you didn't get specific on the contract, the odds are pretty good that you will be getting the least expensive whatever. On this same page is simply that item A can be the same or very little difference from item B, except in the price tag. Many builders are going to use the less expensive because they have figured a set price which includes their [or the subs] labor -- and the cheaper item will give them a bit more profit.

And the last thing is, if it isn't written in detail in the contact, you shouldn't expect to automatically get what *you* want. The builder must make a profit -- and that's fair. But there is flat-out no way to reasonably expect the builder to know what you want if you don't already know, and finding out during the build is the most expensive way to go -in terms of time and money and stress-building.

I have to agree with your assumption that you could go on and on and on forever and ever in the design process. That being said, it is crucial to go through this process and get lots of feedback. It will help you realize how you live and whether your home will fully accomodate it...or not.

Anyhow, one thing really sticks out for me. If you have a family of 5 (and maybe 6), your kitchen is ill equipped to handle this many bodies. First, the pantry next to the fridge is way, way to small. I was a boy and we eat a ton (especially after some sport court activity). Your "Her" area looks like an excellent pantry/storage area. If you'd rather leave that area alone, moving the ovens next to the fridge and convert the now vacated space into a very large pantry area (think floor to cieling cabinets with roll out trays). Secondly, the coutertop space seems a little small and you might want more. You have lots of space to make the island larger which could help. Thirdly, and this assumes the Her area is not an option, your storage for dishes, pots, pans, mixers... seems very limited and you might consider more. All in all, there is a lot of space between the great room, breakfast area and hearth room that will serve primarily as a racetrack for the boys. You could utilize this to expand your kitchen.

The other main issue I see developing is the lack of bathrooms, primarily on the main floor. If you host a boys birtday party, you'll have a dozen crazy boys fighting over a single bathroom. This will likely spill over into the master bathroom which would not be good. The same goes for an adult party.

Having potentially 4 kids share two bathrooms is a looming nightmare as well, particularly if either of them end up being teenage girls :)

And finally, in regards to the "Her" room. It is a nice, large and secluded CAVE. I for one would hate to be in school in this room. There is no natural light and it is right next to the bathroom to boot. It is tucked away in the most remote part of the house and you may feel like you are entering a large closet to do your homework. There is so much space in the great rooms/breakfast the you should be able to squeeze in a proper classroom area. I'm thinking built-in desk/bookshelves on the hearth room wall it shares with the kitchen.

Best of luck.

Bill

PS. I know that when we designed our home, the last thing we wanted was to have the dining room be the first thing guests saw when they entered our home. OK, one more last thing...the Her area would also make an excellent laundry room!

Okay. I obviously have lots to work on before we can get started with our build. I appreciate the insight you are all sharing.

Bill--you are definitely honing in on a sore spot with me and our plans. I don't see enough kitchen cabinets either and yes, the pantry is too small. I was planning on using some of the her area as a pantry storage. Oh, and that space was originally a laundry room but I have my heart set on a 2nd floor laundry.

As for our school space, the her area--no, scratch that, the command center (dang it, I'm going back to my orginal name of that room) does have a window facing the front of the house but I wasn't thinking of that being our main schooling area. Probably just a spot where they could work on things while I'm cooking dinner or something. I'm sure our breakfast table will be used a lot and possibly the bonus room space.

rhome410 (and any other homeschoolers out there) where do YOU do school in your house and did you plan it all out before you built your house?

Thanks everyone!

We 'do school' in different places, depending on what's up at different times of day/different days. If we're reading something as a group, we'll gather in a place where we can be cozy and comfortable. Games and puzzles are at an appropriately sized table. Computer work is, of course, done at the computer (we do a minimum of that...too easily distracting and too many people want it at once). Much of our bookwork that I need to supervise is done at the dining room table, at least to start. It usually happens that, as they get their individual tasks, people drift to where they like to work best...But I have to watch that, because for some, working on their own in their room means more productivity and concentration, and for others it means they give up and get distracted where I can't see them!

All this I've told you is what happened in our last house, from which we moved 23 months ago. We're just finishing our house, having spent the interim time in a 900 sq ft single wide mobile that was already on the land when we bought. I don't recommend that kind of accommodation for schooling! We had no table for gathering together, for board games, etc. We had no real work surfaces for writing. It was all lap work, which isn't very satisfactory.

In our new house, I tried to plan a few desk spaces: a computer desk space that was large enough for two (for a 2-person project, or for Mom and student to sit together), a small desk area just for me, and room enough to add desks to bedrooms. We have our dining room table, which will be our main work area, close to the larger computer station and close to many drawers and some cupboards for school supplies and files. There is also a sitting room nearby for separation or cozy reading, but a space that's not too isolated and I can keep my eye on things. Covered porches are another option for a change of atmosphere and scenery.

I want to line one wall of our understair storage with shelves for games and books. We'll probably end up with bookshelves in a couple of different rooms...Some with doors, because not all our school books are lovely to view. I had planned a whole wall of cupboards in a hallway for all the games, notebooks, school books and projects, etc., but we just couldn't fit it. (We'll have 2750 sq ft for the 10 of us, so were much more limited than you will be.)

We'll have a great kitchen for doing projects together, and for any science experiments. I had planned a long island, but shortened it and fit in a small table, so it could be an additional surface, out of the splash and work zone, for doing school, puzzles, or games while others of us cook or bake (also for shifts of breakfast or lunch, of course).

We'll have a small sewing/craft room for the prolific sewing and art projects, and 2.25 acres for 'PE', exploring, and fresh air. :-)

Thanks for your reply, rhome410! I also kind of envision our schooling in the new house to take place in many different spots. I was forgetting that my husband will have a little spot in the basement for his office so we can use the study as a place to, well, study! Schooling in a mobile home does not sound like fun. I'm sure you are loving your new home. I grew up in a family with nine kids and I don't think any of the houses we lived in had more than 3500 sq ft. It didn't seem crowded to me except for when my five sisters and I were fighting over bathroom time!

We're not quite IN it yet (We're hoping to have our final inspection next week), but I do think we'll love it. The mobile home experience pretty much guarantees we'll feel it's quite luxurious! Our last house was 3100 sq ft, but not all efficient and usable for us. I think we'll get way more out of our 2750 than we did out of the 3100. That's why it's important to get your plans 'just right.'

With your growing up experience, I'm sure you also had to smile when a poster above (no offense, because he meant all the best) told you that 2 bathrooms weren't enough for 4 kids! :-) Sharing and waiting your turn is good for character development, and life out in the world. We got a lot of that type of 'character development' with, basically, 1 bathroom in our last house. The only other was in the basement and in poor shape, so no one used it until we remodeled it about a year or so before we moved.

Yes, my perspective is a bit different on the number of children per bathroom issue. Four kids sharing two bathrooms sounds like heaven to me! Right now in our house that has 3 1/2 baths, I have one locked just so I don't have to clean them all! :)

Best wishes on moving in to your new home for 10!

We are building a very similar garrell home- plan is called "Lansdowne Place". In the framing process right now. And we have 3 children (ages 8 & under) with a 4th on the way. We have so much in common!
I just wrote a long post in response to your initial message, but don't think it went through because I hadn't registered first.
PLEASE email me (straightsmilesortho@yahoo.com) and we can share ideas/ pics. I purchased the plans then modified them myself- I am really proud of our home and am having fun watching it being built. I've gotten alot of great ideas from all the builders that we interviewed, and the garrell website has several finished photos of this home- great for decorating ideas. Would love to share- please email me. (straightsmilesortho@yahoo.com) Julianne

Here is a link that might be useful: garrell associates our home plan

I want to echo the poster who said to build a 3-D model. It is extremely helpful for judging sight lines and clearances in a way that a computer 3-D image could never be.

To build the model, I use a graphics program that uses bitmaps. I set the canvas resolution to 96dpi. This means that if I use 4 pixels to equal one inch, the image will print out at a scale of 1/4" = 1'.

I print the drawing on plain paper, which I paste on posterboard. The thickness of posterboard at the scale of 1/4"=1" is just about the thickness of a standard wall.

For rooms, I use the scale 4 pixels=1". For the whole house (exterior), I use 2 pixels=1", otherwise the model would get to be too large. For small items, such as a closet, I use 8 pixels=1".