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WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Posted by mommyto4boys (My Page) on
Thu, Feb 16, 12 at 17:19

We are meeting with another window dealer tomorrow and we are as of now currenlty over budget for windows. That is if I go with what I really want and don't make sacrifices. Since, I'm not planning to come by any extra money...sacrifice it will be.

I love windows and natural light. We will again be having 10' ceilings. In our last home our windows (with 10' ceilings) in the family room and breakfast nook were 7' in height. I absolutely loved the look and I'm having trouble getting used to the idea of "less" window.

The current plans call for the family room windows to be just shy of 5' tall witha 1'5" transom. Well, with that being said, the transoms have put us over budget. So, at this point, we are possibly looking at a 5' window. As stated previously, we had 7' tall prior. I'm wondering if I would notice 1 foot less, but thinking I would definitely notice a 2' difference??? We most likely will have a couch or sectional blocking part of the bottoms of the windows, so perhaps not as big of a deal as I'm making this out to be.

Also, our dining room will be in the back of the house. It will be vaulted, have a fireplace and a very casual feel. The room is 18'3" X 13'8" and I want it to be full of windows, like a sun room. The fireplace was to be flanked by single, glass doors. The window dealer suggested a window in place of one door, as the doors are $1500/door. I'm having trouble getting past the symmetry of flanking the fireplace with a window on one side and a door on the other. Any ideas and/or pictures to help with this decision?

The wall adjacent to the dining room, fireplace wall is a large arch-opening that lead into the kitchen. Then the other 2 walls are currently on the plan to have a window unit on each. The unit will be consisitng of 4 seperate windows, all placed directly next to each othe, making a 8'0 1/8" W X 4'11 7/8" H unit. This is also to have a 1' 5" H transom on top, thus making the window over 6' 6" in height. I'm thinking about using 3 windows on these walls versus the unit made of 4 and spacing the windows out. My thought is if the windows are spoaced out, then tall wainscoat trim, topped with a plate rack can be between the windows.

Thanks for trying to follow my thoughts, in summary...

Could you please share the heights of windows you have with 10' ceilings? What is your preference?

How much appeal does the transom have and will I miss this look?

Would you have symmetry flanking your fireplace...winow/door OR door/door?

Would you try using less windows on the two additioanl dining room walls, spaced out, versus a huge wall of windows?

***We are over budget on windows the amount of the one dining room door and all the transoms. So, whatta you suggest? it is possible that we will get a better quote, tomorrow (fingers crossed).

Thank for your help, ideas & encourageemnt.


Follow-Up Postings:

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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

"We most likely will have a couch or sectional blocking part of the bottoms of the windows, so perhaps not as big of a deal as I'm making this out to be."

While you're waiting for your new quote, how about mapping out your intended furniture placement. If you have 10' ceilings you have plenty of room to place a window so that the bottom is above the height of the back of a couch or chair, and that way you're not paying for any part of a window that will be covered up.

Per your other questions: I really like transoms, but that's a personal preference I guess. Also I'd want symmetry around my fireplace. I understand that you have a budget, but $1500 compared to the cost of building a house... it seems like something you might regret later if you don't do it now. (I think it would be more costly to change it down the road.)

It might help to post some drawings/elevations.


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

I wouldn't do 5' windows with 10' ceilings - and that is one of those things you can't change.

That being said, we have french doors on one side of our fireplace and it has never bothered me at all. The ceilings are tall - no idea how tall - and vaulted. We have matching half round transoms (really not my favorite look) on either side. I am a sucker for symmetry and it has not been a problem.

One side is a pathway to the deck, and the other is blocked by club chairs flanking the fireplace. Here is a quick iphone picture.

Den, Uploaded with Snapbucket

Hope this helps!


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Thanks for the initial opinions, I really know that I would regret 5' high windows in the main living areas.

Athens...wouldn't bother me in your beautiful room, either! Had to do a double take to notice the difference!


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Thanks - we didn't build our current house (where the picture was taken) but are building now. It has made me realize that there are ways to fake symmetry. . . Our kitchen window in our new house, for example, is centered on the side of the house with the window above, which makes it slightly off center in the kitchen. We were able to design the cabinets so the ones flanking the window were the same size - which sort of fakes the symmetry on the window wall. Now that they are up, they look great.

I just think the lesson is to think through your decisions, which you are obviously doing!


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Let's see if we can get you back on budget without cutting those windows down 2' or deleting the transoms...

What kind of glass door are you putting in at $1500 per door?
What kind & brand of window are we talking about--vinyl, vinyl clad wood, fiberglass, fiberglass clad wood, aluminum clad wood--roll form or extruded?
True divided lite, simulated divided lite, grilles between the glass, or no grilles?
What is the grille pattern?
Screens?
Standard hardware or upgraded (i.e. nickel vs. white)?
On the 4 window units--I'm taking it there are 2 of these units specced, correct? What is the length of the walls these are going on?
Does every window in the house have a transom over it?
Are any of windows arched or rounded or any shape other than rectangle? If so, how many?
Are these windows single hung, double hung, casement, awning, etc?
Are all of the windows operating windows? If not, which ones are non-operating?
Are there any specialty windows (i.e. special order, French casement, etc)?


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Let's see if some elevation pictures will help...

front elevatio

Rear Elevation

right elevation

left elevation


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Attempt to answer "mydreamhome's" questions from PP...

What kind of glass door are you putting in at $1500 per door?
***It is an Anderson brand, energy star, 3' 1 X 6' 8,
white/clear pine, high performance Low-E4 Tempered glass, Finelight grilles-between-the-glass, colonial.

What kind & brand of window are we talking about--vinyl, vinyl clad wood, fiberglass, fiberglass clad wood, aluminum clad wood--roll form or extruded?

***Anderson architectural 400 series, wood casement windows, low E-4 glass

True divided lite, simulated divided lite, grilles between the glass, or no grilles
***grilles between the glass

What is the grille pattern?
***I think colonial

Screens??
***Eventually, haven't even got to that point.

Standard hardware or upgraded (i.e. nickel vs. white)?
***Standard
On the 4 window units--I'm taking it there are 2 of these units specced, correct
***Yes

What is the length of the walls these are going on?
***13' 8"
Does every window in the house have a transom over it?
***NO

Are any of windows arched or rounded or any shape other than rectangle? If so, how many?
***Yes, there are 3 little attic, arched windows, I think we should use "fake" vents there, what do you think. Then there is the arched, foyer window coming in at $1685

ARe these windows single hung, double hung, casement, awning, etc?
***We priced casement and double hung and have found little price difference, as I was very surprised. Some of it is because the window sizes varied some.

Are all of the windows operating windows? If not, which ones are non-operating?
***Non operating will be only the upper foyer windows, those attic windows and the window above the bath in the master bath.

Are there any specialty windows (i.e. special order, French casement, etc)?
***NO


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

mommyto4boys--I've got quite a bit of experience in making the windows fit the budget, that's why I asked all the questions. With the answers to them, I can likely help you out. I would not want to sacrifice the size window openings or setup (transoms) on this beautiful home either. From the elevations, I was able to pull this together:

1) I would consider changing out your 4-unit bank of windows with transoms to 3-unit banks with transoms with each individual unit measuring 32" in width so you keep the 8' total opening. Plus this actually gives you more glass space than a bank of 4. You have 4 sets of these windows so this would be a tidy savings. Here's a look at ours to give you an idea--they are 9' in length with 3-36" wide windows with transoms. We have 3 sets total with the ones in the family room being inoperable:

PhotobucketPhotobucketPhotobucket

2) I would make your garage windows inoperable/fixed. If the garage needs airing out/cooling off you can open the garage doors and/or the man-door.

3) Look to see where else you can make windows inoperable like the multi-window sets with doors on the same/adjacent wall.

4) It looks like your windows are all casements from the elevation. Switching out to double hung or even single hung will dramatically reduce your costs.

5) I would look at making the little arched gable windows into a standard rectangle shaped window and only make them operable if they are sized large enough to meet egress requirements. I would also seriously consider making those little gable windows into louvered vents (whether working or just for show) instead of windows in areas where the window is not being used for lighting interior upstairs finished space as this will save $$$$. You have 3 of these type windows.

6)I would make the glass door that isn't primary into either a fixed/inoperable glass door for absolute symmetry or make it a window for even more cost savings.

7)I am guessing you are looking at aluminum or fiberglass clad doors for those glass doors. We found a more affordable alternative that looked almost identical to the aluminum clad doors in all fiberglass from Plastpro. I have provided a link below as well as a few photos of our doors. If I remember correctly, they ran us $850 each. For you, that would be a savings of $1300 and that is with both doors remaining operable.

PhotobucketPhotobucket
Closeup of the frame around the window (flush glazed)
Photobucket

Hope this helps you get started!

Here is a link that might be useful: Plastpro Flush Glazed Doors


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

OK, so I was typing & pasting pics as you were answering. So...

Are you staining or painting the interior of the Anderson doors? If you're painting, I would go with the Plastpro flush glazed doors. I have seen the Anderson doors and they are very nice, but if you're going to cover up the wood anyway you might as well go Plastpro plus they don't dent like aluminum cladding will + the frame around the glass looks very similar to that found on the Anderson doors and is not that cheap-looking plastic frame that yellows so bad with screw hole covers that never line up right . They can match virtually any grille size & pattern. If you click on their website link and then on 'where to buy', you can see who may have one on display for you to go see in person. Make sure it's the flush glazed door you're looking at, though.

I'd have your window guy reprice the double hung windows and verify that it's as apples to apples as possible--just give them the most common sized window in the house and have them price just that one. The casement mechanism runs the price way up. Even taking into account the difference in sizing (you're only talking less than an inch difference usually) there should be a considerable difference in price. On the Andersen website their MSRP shows a 3050 double hung price @ $404 with the roughly the same sized casement at $507. I just looked at what we paid for ours and there was a $75 increase per window to go with casements. Doesn't sound like much on a per window basis, but when you're talking 10, 20, 30+ windows, it adds up quick.

Andersen 400 windows are very nice, but have you considered potentially less expensive alternatives to them like the Marvin Integrity clad wood windows? Hop over to the window forum and see what you can find comparing the two windows.

The little arched windows--going to vents is an excellent idea--we were already on the same page with that one!

On the answers to the other questions:
The only way to go cheaper on grilles is to go without, so you're good there. Grilles between the glass are less expensive than simulated divided lite & true divided lite, so you're good there too. Verify if screens were included in your quote--sometimes they are, sometimes not. Screens for casements go on the inside and tend to cost more than your typical double hung screen. You may want to consider whether or not you would use screens (we don't) and if not and they're included on the quote, delete them. You're going with standard white hardware, so you're good there. That's all I can recommend for now. Hope it helps!


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Raising the sills saves money especially if you plan to have furniture on the outside walls. The reason to raise the top of the windows is to increase the depth that daylight penetrates the room.

Increasing the size of a window s cheaper than adding more window units.

You indicated the windows were Andersen Architectural 400's. Andersen makes a 400 Series casement and an Architectural casement. The Architectural model is almost 3 times the cost of the 400 model.

The practical advantage of casements is easier glass cleaning and interior screens. If you are in a wooded area, a lot of stuff can collect in the space between the window and the screen.

Frankly, to me, transom windows over casement windows looks a bit odd so I would vote for deleting them and making the casements taller. Double-hungs would be even cheaper. Cottage style double-hung Andersens are often cheaper per s.f. of glass.

I would give up a lot before going to mullions between the glass. There are few places in the design of a house where the need to choose between money and design quality is more obvious.

Check the Andersen catalog to be sure that the casements in the bedrooms meet the emergency escape and rescue opening code requirements. There should be an asterisk next to the drawing of the window size you are using.

Sometimes a French Casement (no center post in a pair of casements) works well.

IMHO, 6-5 tall cottage style double-hungs with simulated mullions would probably keep you within your budget and provide a better looking house.

The elevations are difficult to understand. I hope you were given perspective sketches to approve. Show us the wall section or at least the eave detail. I wouldn't trust this designer to work everything out in advance.


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Great catch on the pricing difference Renovator8--I priced the regular 400 casements in my last post with the pricing comparison to double hungs. Just going with regular 400s vs. architectural 400s may put them even under budget!


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Thanks for all the help and advice. I have taken notes and feel better prepared for our appointment today. I really prefer the look of not having the grilles between the glass. I thought I was missing something with weather and cleaning, because..."everyone" seems to use the between the glass in our area.

I will talk to DH about other brands too. We had Anderson prior and were pleased with them. My dad has always pushed Anderson on all of us and the lumber yard supplying our materials, only deals with them. That doesn't translate to us having to go that route. It is however, very important for us to have quality and energy efficiancy.

Mydreamhome- Thank you for the suggestiosn, they are duly noted. Also, thanks for the pictures...your home is beautiful.

Renovator8- I can get wall sections and the eave detail. Is there something on the exterior that you are seeing as a redflag/problem? Are the elevations difficult to understand because of the renderings or are they missing something? Thank you!


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

The computer drawings were scanned at too small a size and the linework used to show materials is too thick so it all runs together when posted to the forum.

I am concerned with the way masonry veneer is used at the bottom of the exterior wall and above the entrance. The masonry veneer stops higher than the window sills which creates a collection of details that I would try very hard to avoid even if I thought it looked good. The masonry over the entrance should sit on top of a masonry wall below; masonry should never sit over a wood beam.

All the giant hipped roofs make me uncomfortable too. If you have read my other posts you will know that I think combining the English/Tudor front facing gable tradition with the French steep hipped roof tradition destroys the simple charm and architectural integrity of both styles. Too many traditions and styles makes a muddled design in my opinion. I suspect this idea originated with developers who were not aware of the origin or importance of these ideas and were simply trying to marry their ever popular multi-gabled front facades with a roof that reduced the amount of unused second floor space in regions that do not like to use that space for bedrooms.


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

I'm late in this but if budget is your issue, skip the Anderson's. There are plenty of no national name windows that are fine. In my area, M-W has the lion's share of the market and they are fine basic windows. They are absolutely fine. I'd do that before doing GBG's - but that is my thing. I'd do no grids before GBG's in fact (and that is what I have on the back side).

I went with the cheapest option most recently - viwinco vinyl windows and I have been pleasantly surprised.

I personally wouldn't compromise on Grids or window size. I may have done Viwinco but my view wall has 2 4x6s, a 6x6, and transoms on 10 ft ceilings.

With our M-W windows, fixed windows actually cost more than double hung. But with Viwinco, they were less. Some things make little sense with window prices.


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Anderson is a common misspelling of Andersen.

MW windows have been combined with other brands under the company name of Ply-Gem and are apparently now called MW Pro Series Vinyl.

These windows are also made in vinyl, vinyl clad and composite wood, and are constructed differently for different climates so it is difficult to compare them without more information.

My experience with all vinyl windows prevents me from recommending them at any price.


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

My builders love Simonton and say that, depending on the look you're going for, they can trim them out beautifully. I'm going to price them for sure - I know with customer service they're outstanding.


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Hope this helps you to visualize scale. here is a photo of our dining room under construction. The windows will look out onto a covered porch and since it's the dining room, they were placed a little higher in the wall.
The ceiling in this room is 10' and the windows are 6' tall.Photobucket


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Mommyto4boys--have you heard anything on your second quote yet?


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

Thats the most inefficient framing Ive seen in a long time.


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

While that does look pretty bad, perhaps it is a high wind zone or there is a lot to support? I could show you pics of a window wall in high wind that was just one big stud pack (and getting plywood or OSB on both sides)

I don't know if it is common but NC (or our local jurisdiction) really upped the shear requirements. Our garage door wall was 2x8 with OSB on both sides.


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

I'm curious to know what is bad about 16" centers on ceiling joists? Or are you talking about the wall around the windows? That wall is framed to accommodate the colonnade wall of oak cabinetry which will adjoin it between the door and windows. A 10' deep porch of exposed oak rafters extends from that wall and is supported by it.
The plans were architect drawn and then re-evaluated by a structural engineer to be certain that the low roof could support maximum snow for our area.
I hate to derail Mommys post but what is inefficient?


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RE: WINDOWS---10' Ceilings

No problem!

We are waiting for the second quote, but did take a lot of your suggestions with us to the meeting. We are looking at some possible plan changes too, soo...??? Eventually I think DH may also look into some other brands. He really wants to make sure we don't regret the structural, HVAC, windows, etc. that won't be so easily changed out in the future. Thanks, I'll let you know what we find out.


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