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threeapples

Is my shower floor ruined?

threeapples
11 years ago

The tile on the floor was perfect after it was grouted and then we had it sealed on Friday and now the area near the drain looks much darker. What on earth happened and how do we fix it?

Comments (70)

  • MongoCT
    11 years ago

    In your next shower I'd recommend you look into using a topical membrane with a flanged drain.

    I've used Kerdi with the Kerdi drain, and Hydroban with the laticrete drain. For a Steam shower I'll force you towards Kerdi. For a non-steam shower, Hydroban.

    With these showers, your installer will put down a sloped layer of deck mud, and the flanged drain will be set in that mud. On that sloped mud bed goes your topical membrane; Kerdi or Hydroban. The same membrane goes on the walls. You then tile right on the membrane.

    The advantage? With a topical membrane, all that can get wet is the tile, the grout, and the thinset used to set the tile. There is no deep wetting under the tile.

    With your problem shower, you have tile, then an inch or two of deck mud under the tile, then your membrane. So your tile, grout, thinset, and the one or two inch thickness of deck mud can get wet.

    Big difference.

    Here's a little primer on a Kerdi Shower. To do a Hydroban shower, all the prep work is pretty much the same. But instead of thinsetting sheets of Kerdi to the walls and floor, you apply Hydroban to the floor and walls with a roller, brush, or trowel.

  • Astacia
    11 years ago

    unfortunately we had the same issue with our marble shower floor. Yes, the top of the floor that you could see had a distinctive slope to it, but it was the under layer that apparently had NOT been sloped (this was the opinion of the tile guy we had to hire to fix the problem after the original tiler blew us off. ) This could not be figured out, however, until the whole shower floor (and the first few rows of the shower walll tile) were ripped out. After we replaced the floor we chose NOT to seal it, based mainly on reading stacyneil's saga, and all is well so far. The tile guy also used a different kind of grout the second time around, epoxy I believe?

  • MongoCT
    11 years ago

    Sealers are great.

    Until they cause problems. It's not that the products are bad. The products are quite phenomenal nowadays. It's not that they are improperly applied. But it's how everything relates in a system. Sure, you're trying to seal something out. But at the same time, you could be sealing something in.

    It's The Law of Unintended Consequence.

    You'll notice a common theme in the GardenWeb threads. Now while I don't want to write on his behalf, for the most part, neither Bill nor I ever seal any tile or grout in a shower. Or in a bathroom. Or in a house for that matter.

    It's not that I'm anti-sealer. It's just that there are ways to build that make sealers necessary.

    My two cents.

  • kirkhall
    11 years ago

    Mongoct-- (3apples, I'm going a little off topic)
    If I have a great tiler, who knows how to do a pan properly (and I am not using natural stone), but he has never done hydroban and it will be going in a second floor shower...

    Though hydroban is preferred by you, is it okay to go with a mudpan? I am not sure I want my shower to be his first experience with hydroban... kwim?

    Same with 3apples--if she observes the process and insists on a proper preslope with a tile guy otherwise competent (we think and the finishes suggest so), so long as she gets the presloped pan and liner, is she okay to stick with that system?

    What do you think?

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    I checked the other untiled shower in the house and the floor is noticeably sloped toward the drain and has a painted red material on the walls and floor.
    The builder us going to remove a few tiles around the drain to see what's going on there.
    No sealant in tile anywhere in the house?
    Paris Ceramics ( who supplied the black and white marble tile for our foyer) insists it be sealed. Why is this a bad idea if it isnt going to be getting wet often?
    Thanks.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Tile guy did not use Kerdi or Hydroban. He said he used a rubber mbrane that was sloped on top of the sloped under layer.

  • MongoCT
    11 years ago

    "Mongoct-- If I have a great tiler, who knows how to do a pan properly (and I am not using natural stone), but he has never done hydroban and it will be going in a second floor shower...is it okay to go with a mudpan? I am not sure I want my shower to be his first experience with hydroban..."

    Sure! Nothing wrong with it at all. The mud preslope/membrane/mud/tile sandwich has worked fine for years.

    There's nothing really freaky about the topical membranes. I might have linked to a Kerdi Shower construction thread earlier in this thread. That was my first Kerdi Shower, from around 15 years ago or so. You have to start somewhere. And Hydroban is so much easier than Kerdi. So much easier.

    "Paris Ceramics ( who supplied the black and white marble tile for our foyer) insists it be sealed. Why is this a bad idea if it isnt going to be getting wet often? "

    Sealing a natural and porous material like marble in a public entry room like a foyer? It makes total sense. My previous post probably came off as a little militant and it was too all-encompassing.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    this is how the other shower floor is prepped so far.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Tile guy said that the thimset around the drain is yellow and he blames the sealant guy. I have no idea what to do or who should pay for new tiles. Any advice? Thanks.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    here are some photos the tile installer took this morning. you can see the drain has yellowed on its underside, the thinset is yellow, and it looks like something trickled down the drain. do any of these photos help us figure out what happened?

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    I would love for someone to weigh-in here. My builder removed one of the tiles near the drain and the thin set was yellow and smelled like sealant. The sealant guy was out to look at it today and said it was an installation problem, which he determined after talking to the best tile guy he knows who said that the method used to make the shower bed in our shower was out-of-date. I just don't know what to do or how to correct this and I certainly don't want it to happen in the next shower. Any advice?

  • MongoCT
    11 years ago

    It's up to your GC to provide remediation. Whatever, if anything, that may be. And it might be nothing.

    The GC hired the plumber, the tiler, and the guy who applied the sealer. So it's all under his umbrella of authority and responsibility.

    This is the problem with multi-worker installations. Everyone involved did their task perfectly. It was the other guy that screwed up.

    What is your GC saying?

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Actually, my husband and I hired the tile guy, who does not seal any tile, and the sealant guy on our own. Our first gc-hired tile guy was a mess and, thankfully, we learned this before he laid any tile. So, we found this other guy through our architect and he's been nothing but great so far. The sealant guy is a long-time friend of mine who runs a very lucrative and incredibly well-rated business in our area.

    Our builder has no idea what the problem is, but said we should wait a few days to see if the tiles he pulled up from the thin set will dry out.

  • MongoCT
    11 years ago

    In that case, since you did the hiring, the responsibility falls upon your shoulders.

    The tile guy did his work and you accepted it. And as you wrote earlier, the shower performed as expected prior to being sealed.

    The sealer then came in and did his thing. And that created problems.

    If the sealer guy wants to use "it's an installation error because the shower floor was built with old fashioned methods" defense, perhaps he should have asked what methods were used to construct the shower before he applied the sealer?

    But he didn't ask. Out of ignorance? Or apathy?

    In that case, the sealer's proper reply is "I'm so sorry I ruined your shower. I just found out from The Best Tile Guy I Know that the sealer I used is not compatible with how your shower was constructed. But since I didn't think to ask any questions beforehand, what can I do now to make things right?"

    So yeah...acting as your own "GC", you're in a bit of a pickle in terms of getting someone else to accept responsibility.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    we left our shower floor alone for weeks and today my builder blocked the drain and we poured buckets of water on it, enough to fully cover the entire shower floor. we left the drain plugged for about 5 minutes and after a minute or so several tiles in many different areas began to get darker around their edges. the darkness migrated from the edges of these tiles toward their centers a bit. finally he unplugged the drain and we are letting it dry out. i'm including some photos here of what it looked like while wet. neither he nor i had any idea if this darkening was good, bad, or what it meant. any ideas?
    after water

  • hosenemesis
    11 years ago

    Water always gets into the grout and under the tiles, but the tiles themselves do not usually get soaked. If they let water in from their edges like that it strikes me that some of them must be very porous. I have porous stone tiles in my bathroom, and they are ruined and flake apart if they come into contact with much water, so I have to be very careful and avoid getting them wet. I don't think yours will flake apart, but if the appearance of them bothers you, you may want to re-tile. No amount of sealer will prevent this- water always gets under sealers in showers.
    I'm so sorry you are having such troubles.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    since even sealed grout is porous there is no way to prevent the tiles from getting wet underneath, is there? Is my issue indication of a problem with the sealant or with the manner/material of the tile bed's installation?

  • hosenemesis
    11 years ago

    There is no way to prevent shower tiles from getting wet underneath. Water always gets through grout, which is why they have the weep holes in the drain.

    It does not appear to be a problem with sealer or installation, but I don't think we can really give you an answer from here anyway. It could be substandard tiles. Ask your tile guy about the possibility.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    Unfortunately cabinet installers accidentally drilled through a pipe in our shower and we had quite a leak. This water left even more of a mystery with our tile--an area even bigger than before is discolored and very wet, not drying at all after 24 hours already. Clearly we are going to rip out the whole floor and replace the tile, but I am looking for any other comments or advice that might help us figure out what on earth is going on. The tile installer said that he waterproofed the red painted on layer (not sure what that part is called). Might that have caused an issue with our tiles not drying from beneath? Here is a photo:

    Here is a link that might be useful:

  • kirkhall
    11 years ago

    Did he use redgard as the only waterproofing in the pan of the shower?

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    I have no idea what he used. There is a layer of something red that he painted on and he said he waterproofed over that.

  • hosenemesis
    11 years ago

    I think you should get exact answers from him- what products were used where.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    He said he uses a liner from Dal tile under the mud bed and then Red guard on top. Is that the right process?

  • AliceHasLeftTheBuilding
    11 years ago

    Have the weep holes around the drain been checked? This would require removing the tile immediately around the drain. If those holes are plugged, water that gets through the tile will run toward the drain and then have no path to drain.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    The weep holes are clear.

  • StoneTech
    11 years ago

    Why do people insist on using marble, particularly carrera on a shower floor? There have been dozens of issues with this install both here and on John Bridge.com forums in recent years. Jesus, just put a GOOD porcelean tile there and have NO problems.......

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    StoneTech, that is beside the point. I know many people who have marble shower floors with no issues whatsoever. If the problem is the mud bed in my shower it will only be masked with a porcelain tile and take longer to show itself.

    Do you have any advice other than to change the floor material?

  • hosenemesis
    11 years ago

    You can hire someone else to demo the shower pan to find out if the contractor is to blame.

  • mmcf
    11 years ago

    threeapples, your frustration may not be allowing you to see what others see. You've been given advice from several of the best here on GW and with the likely shower construction causes ruled out, it's quite apparent from your pictures this particular marble is too porous to be used in a wet install. See mongoct's early post re: not all marble is the same. Stonetech isn't "beside the point", he's giving very sound professional advice. I really feel for you in your quest to find out what's going on with your shower. Have a friend read this posting from the very beginning and carefully study the pictures... You may not like it, but your answer is here.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    mmcf, thanks. i wonder, however, how others manage to successfully live with marble floors in their showers and not have problems. i'm currently looking for another stone for the shower floor since this clearly is not the right thing, though i'm sad about it because it was beautiful. Or, maybe this marble is faulty somehow. This came from the same company (stonetiledepotdotcom) who did the bait and switch on us with our master bathroom floor--we ordered statuario, they sent "Mexican White," which is not very white.

  • KevinMP
    11 years ago

    Threeapples, you could always do what I did and just get the el cheapo HD "grecian white" 2" x 2" mosaic. If you pick through the boxes, you'll be able to find colors to match. I used polished with sanded grout (because the spacing was a little wider) and it's been fine and actually matched my calacatta gold (which is honed) fine.

    I know plenty of people with marble showers and none of us has any problem (not to mention the headaches you've had).

    My floor after running the shower:

    {{gwi:1392476}}

    And "dry":

    {{gwi:1505904}}

    My local marble/granite yard uses various sealers depending on the type of stone. The owner told me that he only recommended SenGuard for white marbles used in bathrooms. It's expensive, and hard to find (only sold by one online outfit and rationed to dealers), but it's worked very well for me and is one of those "lifetime" sealers.

    This post was edited by KevinMP on Fri, Jan 25, 13 at 0:38

  • kirkhall
    11 years ago

    I'm still waiting for an expert to weigh in on the double membrane. I didn't think you are supposed to do a vinyl liner, AND Redgard...

  • KevinMP
    11 years ago

    I should've added, I don't have one of those HGTV shower membrane systems. I have what is up to code in the city of Philadelphia: a thick, pvc membrane.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    We have a membrane from
    Daltile, them the mud bed and Redguard.
    Kevin, you're saying the cheap marble floor tile holds up well? Why would that be?

  • chris11895
    11 years ago

    Threeapples,
    Have they done your other showers? I'd be curious to see if you used the same tile in another install if you'd see the same result. Although I know that's an expensive test! I would also be curious to see if you'd see the same issue if you switched to the HD marble Kevin mentions in the same shower.

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    11 years ago

    No, the other showers are not done. One has a cast iron pan for the floor and the other one was supposed to have a carrera square mosaic, but I returned that after this fiasco and we are doing a black square mosaic there instead. I still fear for that shower though because if the method of installation is screwy we might have moisture issues even though the floor is a different material--we just might not learn about it right away.

    I'm about to head to a tile place to look into black marble hex options and also see the HD marble Kevin has. Kevin, you are lucky to have a gorgeous shower that is functioning well!

  • enduring
    11 years ago

    Black marble and green marble have something unusual about them, I can't remember. I just looked on the JB forum and there was a comment about green tile being highly absorbent. So black may be as well, because I thought the issues with green were the same with black.

    Why don't you use a black or dark porcelain? There are such beautiful tiles in porcelain or ceramic.

  • hobokenkitchen
    10 years ago

    Did you ever find out what happened to your floor. We have a similar issue (but with glass tile) and I'd be interested to hear if you discovered what the problem is?

  • brickeyee
    10 years ago

    " i wonder, however, how others manage to successfully live with marble floors in their showers and not have problems."

    Marble varies even from different spots in the same vein.

    What they cut today is not exactly the same as what was cut yesterday, last week, last year, etc.

    Add to that all the variances in instal methods and things are going to be different.

    I still will not allow a field applied coating to serve as a water barrier.
    There is no real QC, and it is all to easy to have skips and spots that are not uniform in thickness.

  • KevinMP
    10 years ago

    Yeah, I was wondering what happened with this, too given all of the other good things you've had going on over there.

  • StoneTech
    10 years ago

    As a point about the "Double Waterproofing" asked earlier.

    WRONG! You do one or the other, but not both.

    This problem MAY have been avoided by eliminating the Redguard. Without it, the water getting in between the tiles via grout lines (as it will) would have migrated thru the mud bed, to the liner and then out the weep holes, assuming they were left open.

    Just my .02 worth.......

  • threeapples
    Original Author
    10 years ago

    Nothing has happened yet. The floor need to be gutted and redone. My husband poured rubbing alcohol and acetone on it, but it made no difference. I'll update when we redo it.

  • elphaba_gw
    10 years ago

    I recommend porcelain. Especially after my tile guy told me about the book he maintains with all the "do-overs" of marble baths. Of course, if you are lucky, it can be magnificent - but if you don't want to roll the dice, I find the porcelain also magnificent but plus my tile guy uses kerdi and hydroban as well - not sure which product where but he swears by them. I just let him do his thing. We are getting ready to do a second bath.

  • xedos
    10 years ago

    Green marble requires an epoxy coating to be applied on back before going in a shower and using epoxy setting materials generally.

    If not, the stuff will spall on you.

    It's not for the neophyte, journeyman tilesetter or DIY.

  • JoyToy
    10 years ago

    Q1: Do I need to pull out my whole shower pan before replacing the tiling?

    Q2: Is non beveled tile going to feel sharp on our feet? We had porcelain with rounded edges before. We've been without the master shower for over 6 weeks.

    History: We regrouted our porcelain shower floor 6 weeks ago, as there have been some shrinkage over the years (shower built in 1996) It's the master shower, 4.5 ft by 5.25 ft. We left a fan on to dry it and after leaving it to dry 3 or 4 weeks there were still dark areas. I figured that perhaps some other caulk product has soaked in to cause a discoloring, so I scraped out the grout in just these areas and in fact the grout had been wicking up water that was pooled underneath the tile. The more I scraped, the wetter the material was. I had used a moisture meter and there was water everywhere. The areas were around the edges and 2 areas that led towards the drain. I ripped out the tile to see what was going on and in fact the thin set would chip off easily in those damp areas and the mud underneath was very dark with water. I think that the culprit was a cleaning/sealing that we did last Fall. I had had the tile pressure washed by a service that did my whole house and then we had sealed the cleaned areas. The whole downstairs is tile and we've had no problems whatsoever with that cleaning job. Ditto in the other bathrooms. I'm thinking that I trapped water underneath with the cleaning and then sealed too soon.

    As soon as the tile came up, it has been drying rapidly. The mud turned from almost black to light gray.

    I'm thinking that there is pooling around the circumference due to the fact that the tile walls come down meeting the floor at a 90 degree angle - meeting flush. (hope that's the right term) It seems to me that it would be better to have the floor extend a little behind the wall tile to keep water flowing towards the drain. I'm assuming that the pan was presloped since we've never really had mold problems or discoloration until I redid the grout.

    I'm really at a loss. We're thinking of just retiling and then hoping for the best.

    Any better ideas?

  • Diva5556
    9 years ago

    I bought this EXACT same tile for the Tile Shoppe and had the very same problem. The ring appeared around the drain, and many of the tiles looked gray all the time as if the were holding moisture in places. It is defective tile.
    I had it removed and new tile installed. Nothing was done to the pan or liner or slope. The new tile is fine.

  • xedos
    9 years ago

    Diva - your tile wasn't defective, it just didn't perform to your liking. There IS a difference. Furthermore I don't know of any natural stone purveyors that warrant their stone for a particular purpose - that is up the designer, architect, or specifier.

    No different than the concrete plant warranting their mix to be suitable for your project. If you need a blend that can be pumped as opposed to poured, then YOU have to tell them what to make and send out.

  • piercewest
    8 years ago

    Threeapples - was there ever a final solution? We just installed (per our installers recommendation) the exact same floor you used (Carerra marble) and it did the exact same thing you show in your pictures. great!

  • mom2sulu
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Other questions here. Is this just a cosmetic issue--having the darkness on the floor? Or is it a bigger issue? Can you have the wetness without any bad effects?

    I see that Diva replaced hers saying it was defective. Was that out of her pocket?

    Finally, I don't think it is fair to blame the consumer for these issues. This hex tile is being pushed for shower floors.

  • PRO
    By Any Design Ltd.
    8 years ago
    last modified: 8 years ago

    Maybe the best $5.00 you can spent on your shower build is one of these guys. It's called a Positive Weep Hole Protector. It stops mortar from blocking the weep holes when the shower pan is placed in over the waterproofing liner.

    The photo above from my blog page explains where the weep holes are on your shower drain, The lowest one the key path with the upper two ones used if loads of water builds up.


    Back in the day plumbers would pull Candle Wick from the weep holes to the corners of the shower. Some of the old timers here in Vancouver still do. Here is an example:



    Photo Source: (Larger image) : http://ths.gardenweb.com/discussions/3039681/candle-wick-for-the-showers-weep-holes-lyncar-waterproofing-system